BhagatSingh
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So ur saying Ram did not murder shambuk a low caste just because he was praying??
Hinduism Kinds Of Raam?
So ur saying Ram did not murder shambuk a low caste just because he was praying??
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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waheguru
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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Bhagat Singh Jee!
Quote "So ur saying Ram did not murder shambuk a low caste just because he was praying??"
A Punni (sinless) does pray. A Paapee (sinner) prays too. Devaas pray. Demons pray also.
One growing on conscious level wins the war over Demons.
Quote "my rom rom does not have Raam the murderer of low castes."
Gurdev confirms that in every pore (rom) of all beings only Raam is active.
Balbir Singh
Dear all and Bhagat Singh Jee!
Quote "So ur saying Ram did not murder shambuk a low caste just because he was praying??"
A Punni (sinless) does pray. A Paapee (sinner) prays too. Devaas pray. Demons pray also.
One growing on conscious level wins the war over Demons.
Quote "my rom rom does not have Raam the murderer of low castes."
Gurdev confirms that in every pore (rom) of all beings only Raam is active.
Balbir Singh
BhagatSingh
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that does not make sense. I think u misunderstood me.
Raam killed shambuk because shambuk was praying. Why did ram kill him? Because Shambuk was a low caste.
BhagatSingh
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No
BhagatSingh
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NO i say it once more ram the muderer of a low caste is not in my rom rom
BhagatSingh
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and who is this gurdev ur talking about?
Archived_member2
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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Bhagat Singh Jee!
Quote "Raam killed shambuk because shambuk was praying. Why did ram kill him? Because Shambuk was a low caste."
Perhaps someone can refer the original attribute of Shambuk in Sanskrit.
In my view, Raam is active in all beings without prejudicing. Raam never hates anybody, what to say about the so-called low caste person in the eyes of the translator.
Quote "NO i say it once more ram the muderer of a low caste is not in my rom rom."
Gurdev says that they do not die nor they are betrayed in whose mind Raam resides. Perhaps Shambuk rejected Raam from his every pore (rom rom) earlier thus deserving the low caste.
'I' would love to be killed by Raam as the Shambuk demon, the low caste relative of ego.
On the way to kill ego (Raavana) Raam meets many low caste hindrances and destroys them.
May I ask if you would be happy to recognize Raam the true Gurus are singing about? If yes, then please stop reading the translations of Raam episodes from the translators with low consciousness. Better come to know true Naam Simran.
Quote "and who is this gurdev ur talking about?"
Gur means knowledge, technique, way. Dev means, one who gives. My Gurdev is the full consciousness of the true Sabad.
Balbir Singh
Dear all and Bhagat Singh Jee!
Quote "Raam killed shambuk because shambuk was praying. Why did ram kill him? Because Shambuk was a low caste."
Perhaps someone can refer the original attribute of Shambuk in Sanskrit.
In my view, Raam is active in all beings without prejudicing. Raam never hates anybody, what to say about the so-called low caste person in the eyes of the translator.
Quote "NO i say it once more ram the muderer of a low caste is not in my rom rom."
Gurdev says that they do not die nor they are betrayed in whose mind Raam resides. Perhaps Shambuk rejected Raam from his every pore (rom rom) earlier thus deserving the low caste.
'I' would love to be killed by Raam as the Shambuk demon, the low caste relative of ego.
On the way to kill ego (Raavana) Raam meets many low caste hindrances and destroys them.
May I ask if you would be happy to recognize Raam the true Gurus are singing about? If yes, then please stop reading the translations of Raam episodes from the translators with low consciousness. Better come to know true Naam Simran.
Quote "and who is this gurdev ur talking about?"
Gur means knowledge, technique, way. Dev means, one who gives. My Gurdev is the full consciousness of the true Sabad.
Balbir Singh
- Who is this Waheguru by the way you are talking about ?
This Shabad is by Guru Raam Daas Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 442
bwxI rwm nwm suxI isiD kwrj siB suhwey rwm ]baanee raam naam sunee sidhh kaaraj sabh suhaaeae raam ||
romy roim roim romy mY gurmuiK rwmu iDAwey rwm ]romae rom rom romae mai guramukh raam dhhiaaeae raam ||
- Jun 7, 2006
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TGill ji,
i was just going to ask the same question
i was just going to ask the same question
ramchandra uakey sidhailo tumi ke hey?
uttar ailo, hami shombhuk, jatitey shudro.
ramchandra sidhailo, tumi ki koirchho?
uttar ailo, hami baed path korchhi.
proja botshol ram, gota desher raja
ragey gur-gurayn, tolwar tainey
ghochang korey dilo shombhuker gola kaitey
shurdrer baed path cholbek nain.
Lord Rama asked him: Who are you?
He replied: I am Shambuk, Shudra by caste.
Lord Rama asked: What are you doing?
He replied: I am reciting the Vedas.
Rama, the ruler of the masses, is the king of the nation
Trembling with rage, drawing his sword,
Decapitated Shambuk with a single stroke.
A Shudra must never recite the Vedas.
Looks like Baghat ji has it right.
uttar ailo, hami shombhuk, jatitey shudro.
ramchandra sidhailo, tumi ki koirchho?
uttar ailo, hami baed path korchhi.
proja botshol ram, gota desher raja
ragey gur-gurayn, tolwar tainey
ghochang korey dilo shombhuker gola kaitey
shurdrer baed path cholbek nain.
Lord Rama asked him: Who are you?
He replied: I am Shambuk, Shudra by caste.
Lord Rama asked: What are you doing?
He replied: I am reciting the Vedas.
Rama, the ruler of the masses, is the king of the nation
Trembling with rage, drawing his sword,
Decapitated Shambuk with a single stroke.
A Shudra must never recite the Vedas.
Looks like Baghat ji has it right.
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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so now ur shambuk who was a low caste "human" was actually a "Demon"?
that still doesnt give ram the right to kill him. IN fact a person of high standard, a person with any conciousness would NOT have killed him. U just proved my point by saying "Raam meets many low caste hindrances and destroys them." If you go out of your way to kill low castes whereever u find them, then they do become hindrances even if they are innocent.
and u still sound like u havent even looked at the link, and by failing to do so ,u fail to see that ram in fact was more degraded that humans. You are scared that ur Ideal man Ram is in fact not that ideal.
BhagatSingh
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So would the Gurus have taken Ram's side or shambuk's??
Baghat ji
Good question -- and I was thinking about this some hours ago. We can think of this using two scenarios.
Scenario 1. Let's just say for the sake of argument only, that Shambuk represents more than the Shudra state. Let's say for the sake of argument that he represents a deficient and malformed consciousness and that is why he is forbidden by Rama to recite the Vedas.
Scenario 2. For the sake of argument, Shambuk does represent a low caste individual, and there is no other spiritual significance to the verses. He is too low to recite the vedas.
The opinion of this miserable and lowly worm
for who am I to say what the Gurus meant -- I have only my intuitions. The Gurus would have rejected the actions of Rama. This would not have been the way of the Gurus or the Divine Lord.
Why? Sikhi is the path of liberation. No one is too lowly to recite the shabds of Guruji. No spirit is too deficient to benefit from jap and simran. No human is too lowly to be cast away, let alone killed. All are called. No one is rejected. All benefit according to His hukam.
Good question -- and I was thinking about this some hours ago. We can think of this using two scenarios.
Scenario 1. Let's just say for the sake of argument only, that Shambuk represents more than the Shudra state. Let's say for the sake of argument that he represents a deficient and malformed consciousness and that is why he is forbidden by Rama to recite the Vedas.
Scenario 2. For the sake of argument, Shambuk does represent a low caste individual, and there is no other spiritual significance to the verses. He is too low to recite the vedas.
The opinion of this miserable and lowly worm
for who am I to say what the Gurus meant -- I have only my intuitions. The Gurus would have rejected the actions of Rama. This would not have been the way of the Gurus or the Divine Lord.
Why? Sikhi is the path of liberation. No one is too lowly to recite the shabds of Guruji. No spirit is too deficient to benefit from jap and simran. No human is too lowly to be cast away, let alone killed. All are called. No one is rejected. All benefit according to His hukam.
Is this a shabad of guru granth sahib if yes on which page it is written?
BhagatSingh
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its not. Here is one website where u can find it: Hinduism Unveiled: Forbidden Verses in Hindu Scriptures
here is a little portion of it:
LORD RAMA, THE GREAT UPHOLDER OF DHARMA, SLAYS AN INNOCENT SUDRA[SIZE=-1]
Lord Rama, the sat-purusa (ideal man) & the great upholder of dharma, upholds the dharma of slaughtering an innocent Sudra only because he was performing asceticism (tapas). Low-castes like Sudras were not allowed to perform austerities or penances as Brahmins were, because the whole universe could go out of balance when caste divisions are not adhered to. Therefore, Sambuka, only because he was born as a Sudra and was performing the svadharma (caste duty) of a higher caste than his own, was slain by Rama as a sacrifice:
"Thereupon approaching him, Rama said, 'O you of good vows, blessed are you; I do ask you, now, O highly effulgent and grown old in asceticism, in what Varna (caste) are you born? I put this question out of curiosity. I am the son of king Dasaratha and my name is Rama. For what are you going through such hard austerities? Is it heaven or anything else that you pray for? O ascetic, I wish to hear, of the purpose for which you are performing such hard penances. Are you a Brahman, or an irrepressible Ksatriya or the third caste Vaisya or a Sudra? Speak the truth and you shall be crowned with auspiciousness.' Hearing the words of Rama, the ascetic, whose face was downwards, gave out his degraded birth and communicated unto him for what he was performing ascetic observances. Hearing the words of Rama of unwearied actions, the ascetic, with his face downwards, said, 'O highly illustrious Rama, I am born in the race of Sudras; and with a view to reach the region of the celestials with my body I am going through these austere penances. O Kakutstha (Rama), I shall never utter a falsehood since I am willing to conquer the region of gods. I am a Sudra and my name is Sambuka.' The Sudra ascetic having said this, Rama took out of scabbard a beautiful sharp sword and chopped off his head therewith. And that Sudra being slain, Indra, Agni and other celestials praised him again and again and showered flowers." -- Ramayana 7:88-89.[/SIZE]
BTW its Bhagat not Baghat.
Bhagat ji and Kds ji
Bhagat ji, first of all apologies for mispelling your name -- spelling is a disaster zone for me in 4 languages no less.
Kds ji -- I also misspelled your screen name many times as you know.
The verses are by a Hindu poet, and based on the Ramayana (correction)- and I did not find them on the site given by Bhagat. I found them in another resource. The verses in the Ramayana, given by Bhagat above, and other verses like them, are the basis for the Law of Manu, which has been used for centuries to maintain a hierarchical society in which roles are dispensed and penalties are harsh for daring to disobey.
The theme of liberation pervades every aspect of Sikhism historically and scripturally. No need to dwell on that. Both of you know better than I.
What astounds me every time is the casual way in which Nanaak's departure from hierarchy and enslavement is dismissed and forgotten by some.
Stay in Chardi Kala...
Added later. The source of the poem: Pasupati Prasad Mahato, Manbhum Ma Hamar (Manbhum, My Mother: A Collection of Adivasi Bengali Poetry). Published by Shobar Ganyer Khobor (Calcutta, 2007).
Bhagat ji, first of all apologies for mispelling your name -- spelling is a disaster zone for me in 4 languages no less.
Kds ji -- I also misspelled your screen name many times as you know.
The verses are by a Hindu poet, and based on the Ramayana (correction)- and I did not find them on the site given by Bhagat. I found them in another resource. The verses in the Ramayana, given by Bhagat above, and other verses like them, are the basis for the Law of Manu, which has been used for centuries to maintain a hierarchical society in which roles are dispensed and penalties are harsh for daring to disobey.
The theme of liberation pervades every aspect of Sikhism historically and scripturally. No need to dwell on that. Both of you know better than I.
What astounds me every time is the casual way in which Nanaak's departure from hierarchy and enslavement is dismissed and forgotten by some.
Stay in Chardi Kala...
Added later. The source of the poem: Pasupati Prasad Mahato, Manbhum Ma Hamar (Manbhum, My Mother: A Collection of Adivasi Bengali Poetry). Published by Shobar Ganyer Khobor (Calcutta, 2007).
Last edited by a moderator:
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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hehe then its a good thing i posted them up lol
Archived_member2
Archived
Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!
The true Gurus have not mentioned about the character Shambhuk. I do not feel like discussing over a writer's view about this character from a story.
Please stay with the topic and express your views about Raam from Gurbaanee.
**************
Quote from Bhagat Singh Jee "U just proved my point by saying "Raam meets many low caste hindrances and destroys them." If you go out of your way to kill low castes whereever u find them, then they do become hindrances even if they are innocent."
You are talking about the outer world and a story.
I am trying to explain the true spiritual growth within.
Please feel free and mighty to protect the demons and low breed hindrances when it comes to that. Let it be your choice.
Quote "and u still sound like u havent even looked at the link, and by failing to do so ,u fail to see that ram in fact was more degraded that humans."
I have gone through the link provided.
These are my views.
The episodes of mythology take place within on the conscious levels of mind. These represent the spiritual development. The good and bad are within each individual. An outer world is the reflection of it.
Nobody can prove it if the characters of these episodes really existed. They may be worshipers of them or hater. Those who are convinced from these stories to have happened in history their consciousness needs to grow further to enliven the truth, in my view.
Quote "You are scared that ur Ideal man Ram is in fact not that ideal."
My Raam is not a man whom someone feels good to criticize.
Balbir Singh
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!
The true Gurus have not mentioned about the character Shambhuk. I do not feel like discussing over a writer's view about this character from a story.
Please stay with the topic and express your views about Raam from Gurbaanee.
**************
Quote from Bhagat Singh Jee "U just proved my point by saying "Raam meets many low caste hindrances and destroys them." If you go out of your way to kill low castes whereever u find them, then they do become hindrances even if they are innocent."
You are talking about the outer world and a story.
I am trying to explain the true spiritual growth within.
Please feel free and mighty to protect the demons and low breed hindrances when it comes to that. Let it be your choice.
Quote "and u still sound like u havent even looked at the link, and by failing to do so ,u fail to see that ram in fact was more degraded that humans."
I have gone through the link provided.
These are my views.
The episodes of mythology take place within on the conscious levels of mind. These represent the spiritual development. The good and bad are within each individual. An outer world is the reflection of it.
Nobody can prove it if the characters of these episodes really existed. They may be worshipers of them or hater. Those who are convinced from these stories to have happened in history their consciousness needs to grow further to enliven the truth, in my view.
Quote "You are scared that ur Ideal man Ram is in fact not that ideal."
My Raam is not a man whom someone feels good to criticize.
Balbir Singh
BhagatSingh
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now u seem to be going off topic. good strategy :hmm:
the post is about different kinds of ram.
i said the there are two kinds: a general name for the One almighty and the name of a not-so-great king.
u keep saying that these two are the same. Even when i show that they are not. There is no spirituality in lies! and it sounds like u support the caste system. "demons and LOW BREED hindrances"
So u do agree ur "Ram" is a man?
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