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Killing of Dalits In Haryana

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by kds1980, Jun 3, 2010.

  1. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    The Supreme Court on Wednesday slammed the Haryana government for the brutal killing of two Dalits and destruction of 150 houses in Mirchpur, Hissar, on April 21 allegedly by upper caste people and warned it would "take a very serious view" if such incidents recurred.

    A vacation bench of Justices G S Singhvi and C K Prasad pulled up the state government for its failure to prevent the incident, reportedly a fallout of a dog belonging to people of the (Valmiki) Dalit community barking at some upper caste Jat boys.

    "Admittedly it started after a dog belonging to the Valmiki community barked at upper caste boys. Is it a ground for murdering people? Even dogs will not be killed for such purposes, otherwise, there will be no dogs left," the bench remarked.

    The apex court passed the observation while rejecting the submission of senior counsel H S Hooda, who contented that the incident occurred after a wordy duel between youths belonging to the two communities on a trivial issue.

    The apex court recorded an undertaking from the Haryana Government that it would rebuild some of the houses damaged in the arson and provide employment to at least one member of each affected family under the National Rural Employment Guarantee Act or other government-sponsored schemes by the next hearing.

    "Unfortunately in Haryana such incidents are repeatedly occurring without sensitivity. We hope there will be no further incidents. If it occurs and this court finds the state lacking, we will take a very serious view," the bench warned.

    The apex court expressed displeasure at the manner in which the state government failed to anticipate the situation and prevent the incident.

    "What did the SSP, the district commissioner and other senior officers do to prevent the possible occurrence? We want the state government to conduct a thorough probe and fix responsibility on superior officers, suspension of SHO or thesildar hardly makes a difference," the bench observed.
     
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  3. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    In haryana dalits are regularly attacked and killed yet
    they hardly retaliate or threaten to leave hinduism On the other hand in Punjab Dalits and jat sikhs regularly clash and dalits always threaten to leave sikhsim and some even create their new religion
     
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  4. roopsidhu

    roopsidhu
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    SSA,
    We should elaborate the reasons that why they (dalits) threaten to leave sikhism?
    Who is responsible? Babas, ppolitics or uppercaste sikhs?
    It need a serious study and plan of action to put an end to it.
    Roopsidhu
     
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  5. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    In Punjab Dalits are quite powerful and they have their own dera's and political leaders who use them.When one of their baba got killed they were on rampage in Punjab now why no such rampage in haryana?
    uppercaste sikhs are responsible for discrimination but that does not mean they should leave the faith that actually benefitted them and helped their upliftment
     
  6. Archived_Member_17

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    Sat Shri Akaal Everyone,

    Whenever I hear of Dalits wanting to leave Sikh faith because ..., it makes me wonder whether under the same circumstances, I would like to leave Sikh faith. The answer is NO. I am Sikh for my personal reasons, for my own benefit, I am not doing any favor to anyone, then who is the threat against anyways? If they really love Sikhi, then why don't they exert as much right over it as we do. Why don't they ask the other Sikhs to leave it if other Sikhs don't like them, why is it that they threaten to leave as if they are doing some type of favor to others? It sounds very strange to me.

    Then they also focus so much on Bhagat Ravidas, and want to call him Satguru just like Guru Nanak Dev Ji. I do not have the same caste as our Gurus, and there is a bhagat in Guru Granth Sahib that did have the same caste as myself. Does that mean I should be focused on that Bhagat's bani more? :) It is ridiculous. It sounds like so many people don't even understand the purpose of the religion, they think it is some type of social or political agenda, but it really is a spiritual path to salvation. If they are not happy with Sikh faith, they have the free will to convert, but it is no threat to anyone, as I for one don't seem to care one way or the other. It is all their personal gain or loss.

    Regards,
    Randeep Kaur
     
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  7. roopsidhu

    roopsidhu
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    SSA,
    The dalits of Haryana, which are being discussed are already seperate from hindus. They are called Balmikis. They always face descrimination from upper caste hindus and are having own religious path.
    As far as matter of dalits of punjab leaving the sikhism is concerned, If there way of following is not as per teachings of gurbani, then they are not sikhs and I personally do not care if they are leaving sikhi or not. If they are not true followers then why sikhs need them? just for numbers or votes?
    Roopsidhu
     
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  8. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Balmiks are not separate religion .They are part of hinduism.In census they are counted as hindu's.Also despite being non veg they don't consume beef so they are 100% hindus
     
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  9. roopsidhu

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    SSA,
    There are lot of balmikis who are against the hindu diety rama, there are different societies in balmikis Nmaed after Ravana ( the enemy of hindu diety Rama) recently I have read about an organization called Ravan saina (of balmikis), announcing that if hindus will not stop burning ravana then Ravan saina will start burning Rama's effigy. Can any sect or caste threatening to burn Ram putlas be hindu.
    And how comes that non- beef eaters are hindu only. Majority of sikhs also do not eat beef, can we call them hindus?
    Are we deciding the religion of the person from his/her belief or from the census data.
    Are ravidasias sikh? 80% ravidasias are shaven headed,do we consider them sikhs?
    I am sorry for getting off the topic but permit me to ask about some kesdharis as well:-
    Are nirankaris sikhs?
    Are naamdharis sikh?
    Are Radha soamis sikh?
    Are non believer of the prime fact (that only SGGS ji is the only present Guru and no other book should be regarded as guru) sikhs?
    This is my point of view that the ones who do not believe in SGGS ji as the only present guru are not sikhs. There being called sikhs or anything else really do not matters to, me.
    Roopsidhu
     
  10. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Yes the sikhs who eat other kind of meat and don't eat beef have some kind of hinduism in them.Is their any justification that you don't eat an animal that is sacred for other religion?

    For political decisions census data is the only source What is the religion of person is.When Punjab was partitioned the criteria was only census.If at that time Balmiks and other lower castes had been removed from hindu or sikh defination then East Punjab was also a muslim
    majority state and should had been given to Pakistan.

    At present even 90% of sikh youths of Punjab cut their hair yet we call Punjab a sikh state and all its problems and affairs are automatically considered as sikh affairs

    In India hindu's are 80% of population but if you start removing sects like balmiks then tribals then some other sects then may you will not found Hindu population of India more than 30%.

    If Balmiks really conisdered themselves non hindu's then they should clearly ask central Govt to recognise them as separate religion
     
  11. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Even in pakistan they are recognised as hindu's

    Pakistan Valmiki Sabha

    The presence of the Balmiki temple, which is the hub of the Hindu community in this crowded neighbourhood, has become a
    Head priest Ramlal says the temple was built in 1861

    I don't understand how you are saying that balmiks are not hindu's.If some any single organisation has asked that they will burn ram then it does not mean that entire balmik community is against ram
     
  12. roopsidhu

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    SSA,
    Only one ravidasia dera has annouced their own granth then how are you refering it ot all ravidasias?
    As per your quote if non-beef eating are hindus then what is the %age of Real sikhs (beef eaters) in punjab?
    Just see the defination of sikh as per SRM or Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and then decide what %age of sikhs are there in total?
    If in census or some government documents can athunticate one's religion then for all us sikh's marriage certificates mention our marriages as hindu marriage, does it make us hindus?

    I do not want to purlong this issue as it is not taking us anywhere constructively. All what I like to say that the Dalits are not the only ones responsible for what is happening in punjab. The rigidness, fanatism, idol like workship of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, caste based divisions in sikhism by sikhs and deras, babas, statue worship and lake of awareness on part of dalits, are all collectively responsible for the situation which has been created by power hungary leaders.
    The solution if any does not exists in blaiming each other but trying to find some mutual ways or let them change to whatever religion they want.
    My point is that for those who does not fit into the so-called defination of sikhi are not sikhs, And the real sikhs should not bother about them at all.
    Roopsidhu
     
  13. roopsidhu

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    SSA,
    If non beef eaters are not real sikhs then how many sikhs are there in punjab?
    Most of the sikhs of punjab are non beef eater hence they are hindus?

    If you agree that 90% of sikh youth are shaven headed or clean shaven then do you consider them sikhs or what? If you think they are sikhs what is the real defination of a sikh?.
    Yes out of 80% so called hindus many sect are coming out and the %age of the hindus is decreasing ( not to forget that our gurus were also born in hindu families and now we exist as an independent religion)
    Dear brother what balmikis should ask from government or what not, why we don't leave it to them? Who are we to suggest to all others that what they should do? Are they requesting us for our opinion? Let them decide what they want.

    I know that in pakistan balmikis are refered legally as hindus. In our case here in India our all marriage certificate, state our marriage " as per hindu marriage act" and that does not makes us hindu. and we have protested against that.
    I strongly believe that we should refrain from jumping into others issues, we have lots of issues in sikhism itself, lets invest all our energy to solve the internal problems of sikhism and let the ravidasias and balmikis live their life as they want because we donot consider them real sikhs hence we should not waste our time bothering about them.

    Yes I can agree that if a single organization has opted against hinduism we cannot say that al balmikis are against ram. Then why we are blaiming all ravidasias? There also only one dera has opted for new granth and new religion. Why there is an outcry against all ravidasias?
    Just blaiming others will never sove the issues but complicate it more. lets be fare and just and then express our views.
    Hope this post suits all.
    Roopsidhu
     
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  14. roopsidhu

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    SSA,
    I had posted one post # 10 earlier but that was not appearing on my computer hence I wrote post # 11. Hence many things in boths posts are same. please bear with me.
    Roopsidhu
     
  15. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    roop sidhu ji

    Let me clarify some points In India there is hardly any chance of eating beef as it is banned
    because of Govt but I am sure the sikhs living outside india who are non veg have no problem eating beef as far balmiks are concerned may be they will not eat beef.I am not saying that only beef eaters are real sikhs but sikhs who eat all kind of meat and refrain from beef have some hinduism inside

    If you ask my personal views then I do consider them sikhs

    Now coming to separate religion point sikhs in India are entitled the benefits that are given to minorities for example setting a college and reserving some percentage of seats for sikhs.
    Balmiks can't do that instead they are entitled to reservation under hindu schedule caste


    Religion is a very complex thing to define.In India more hindu's visit Gurdwara's than sikhs
    they also do paath and have faith in guru granth sahib but on the other hand if you ask them do you support sikh political cause they may say no.1984 hardly any of these gurdwara going paath doing hindu's come out to protect gurdwara's from mobs so what will you call a person who will go gurdwara and do all sikh stuff and yet in time of difficulty he
    refuse to stand up for sikh cause
    Yes you are right only dera said they are separate from sikh religion other deras have rejected this move.I don't think that their is outcry against whole ravidasia if their is then it must be because of caste factor in Punjab I never said that all ravidasias are not sikhs.
     
  16. roopsidhu

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    SSA,
    For the sake off answer to your post let me tell that, I lived in an arab country for 25 years with thousands of other fellow sikhs. 95% sikhs here avoid eating beef. I think it depends upon person to person and also the surrondings.

    In any case this act of killing and burning houses is condemnable. Its shameful. Let it be the life of a dalit or an upper caste person, the lilfe has to be respected.
    The government must take some stiff measures to prevent such crimes in the future.
    Roopsidhu
     
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  17. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    I am sorry to say because of this type of mentality many hindu's do not recognise sikhs separate from hindu's and they are right.You are ready to eat every other animal but you avoid beef is their any logic behind it.It is because of this type of mentality we were not able to get our full separate identity

    What kind of funny religion ours have become we are ready to do all things which Our Guru's rejected yet like a true hindu we avoid beef and then we shout that we are not hindu's
     
  18. roopsidhu

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    SSA,
    Eating meat, not eating meat, eating beef, eating jhatka or eating hilal (kutha) are the issues which can be discussed to any lengths but this is not the thread to discuss it. There are many other threads where these issues can be discussed. I think we should return back to the topic.
    Roopsidhu
     
    #17 roopsidhu, Jun 3, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010

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