Keeping My Bodily Kesh (Hair) And Getting Used To The Gazes

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Caspian ji, dear

Oh, dear, I fear that nothing I have written impresses you one little bit. I will make a last (I hope) attempt, as I have been neglecting my sewa to discuss this matter with you.

I have this funny feeling that you have no interest in learning or resolving anything; you may well simply be being a Tellerite. ( You may Google on "Tellerite argue" if you don't understand this reference.)

I know you philosophers tend to eschew empirical arguments.

Nonetheless...

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating." IT WORKS. Being a visible Sikh works for me. In spite of many major difficulties (which I will elaborate on if you ask), I am basically a happy person. I generally remain in chardi kala. I like the person I see in the mirror each morning, physically, intellectually, emotionally, morally and spiritually. "It works for me," however, while a necessary condition is not sufficient, as I'm sure many Nazis and taliban could say the same. So I continue...

Being a visible Sikh makes me a representative - to the general public - of someone I deeply love. I try to behave in a way that will bring good repute to him. I attempt to live in a way that would make my Guru proud of me (I refer here to Guru Gobind Singh ji, not Satgur Akaal Purakh). Therefore, I am a doer of good deeds who works very hard to improve the world we live in at every level.

Let an old Mai be corny for a minute...

"And the world will be better for this
That one man [OK, I'm a woman, the principle is the same] scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his [her] last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star."

I believe that those last couple of paragraphs taken together constitute both necessary and sufficient conditions. If not, no matter. I am done arguing. I am not a Tellerite.

 

[Caspian]

I wouldn't consider my self a "Tellerite" either. But +1 for Star Trek reference

The Tellarites were described by Sarek in "Journey to Babel", as being argumentative, not to make a point, but simply to argue.

But I think the key difference between me and a Tellerite is that I am "making a point." I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing (or else I would pick on all the Sikh Teachings, but i cant cause to me they all make sense except for the 5 K's).

Heres my problem (its kind of a dilemma), maybe this will help you understand my angle:

By appearance, I look like a Gur-Sikh. I've never cut my hair in the 21 years I've been alive (and I consider myself a good person, but that is beside the point ). But I know it is not enough for me to simply keep my hair (I have to feel good about it like you guys do, or else its just as good as me not keeping my hair). One guy mentioned how his Kesh made him "feel" complete. My Kesh never has made me feel that way or the way you feel about your Kesh BUT I wouldn't mind, infact I would love to feel what you guys feel. Its just, How would I feel complete if keeping it is not enough? It seems like for you guys, the very act of keeping your hair is enough... and if that is not enough for me I either have to find out "why it is good to keep your hair" (which I have been trying to figure out for the past 5/6 years) or simply coerce myself into realizing that it is good for me (But that is something I cant do because it feels like I could do that for almost anything, there is nothing intrinsically good or bad about keeping it).

So here I am, a Sikh by appearance who does not feel complete. My appearance is essentially a facade. And I realize that If I cant "feel complete" with my kesh I probably wont feel complete without my Kesh but that's also not a great argument for Keeping the kesh (its essentially encouraging one to hold up the facade for the sake of holding up the facade). If I really want to feel "complete" I have to understand why it is so important? So my attempts to understand why it is so important may seem like I'm a "tellerite" arguing for the sake of arguing, but I'm not trying to justify a position (not playing Devils advocate) so much as I'm trying to figure out the "why?" Lol, hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Caspian,

Guru fateh.

Welcome after a long pause.

So here I am, a Sikh by appearance who does not feel complete. My appearance is essentially a facade. And I realize that If I cant "feel complete" with my kesh I probably wont feel complete without my Kesh but that's also not a great argument for Keeping the kesh (its essentially encouraging one to hold up the facade for the sake of holding up the facade). If I really want to feel "complete" I have to understand why it is so important? So my attempts to understand why it is so important may seem like I'm a "tellerite" arguing for the sake of arguing, but I'm not trying to justify a position (not playing Devils advocate) so much as I'm trying to figure out the "why?" Lol, hopefully that makes sense.

I have a suggestion for you. Why don't you cut your kesh and see how you really feel? Now, you are just imagining what you may feel. After having the true experience, you will be able to find out what is right for you and then you will have the tools to get rid of your facade without kesh or with kesh if you decide to regrow it.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Caspian]

I have a suggestion for you. Why don't you cut your kesh and see how you really feel? Now, you are just imagining what you may feel. After having the true experience, you will be able to find out what is right for you and then you will have the tools to get rid of your facade without kesh or with kesh if you decide to regrow it. - Tejwant

I AGREE COMPLETELY! As a matter of fact, that's my plan anyways :happy:. Now here's the problem with the plan from a "Sikh's" perspective (for example, my Dad's perspective). If I cut my hair and feel better without it, then there's probably no way I'm coming back to keeping my hair. If I cut my hair and realize somewhere down the line that I like my hair better, Then ill revert. From real world experience, I know no one who has "reverted" but plenty of people who have "converted" . But lets put all that aside anyways! The reason why I said "I Agree Completely" is because I believe it really ought to be a choice (Even the Amish, when they raise their kids, there is one week (Edit: From puberty to adulthood actually) where they allow their kids to head into the city and experience the outside world. At that point, by the end of the week, the children have the option of staying in the Amish village or leaving their families on good terms to pursue a life in the modern world. Furthermore, a majority of the Amish youth choose to "remain amish" i believe this is because there community has accepted the rebellious nature of teenagers and given them the choice. In theory, this choice is available to sikhs as well at anytime BUT in practice this choice is non-existent in sikhism). This option is something the Sikh community does not allow its youth's to explore without blatant consequences. My dad would surely disown me for example. I can almost garentee that if this option was widely available, more children may actually choose to "revert." But I may choose to go without my hair, not because I feel better without it, but because of anger over the fact that my family disowned me when I did choose to cut it.

Edit

If anyone's interested about learning about the Amish tradition I was alluding to. Its called "Rumspringa" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa )

This is just a Sidenote

But I feel like it might explain why I am so staunch on philosophical and logical understanding. I feel that you guys believe that "All men are equal" because Guru Nanak Dev Ji said so and similarily, you guys believe in keeping the 5 K's because Guru Gobind Singh Ji said so (so there is no conflict in your belief system).

I however, believe that all men are equal because it makes sense (it doesnt matter if i learned it from Jesus, Guru Nanak Dev Ji, or the declaration of Independance). Therefore, if I was to believe in keeping the 5 K's, it would also have to make sense inorder for their not to be a conflict.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

This is just a Sidenote

But I feel like it might explain why I am so staunch on philosophical and logical understanding. I feel that you guys believe that "All men are equal" because Guru Nanak Dev Ji said so and similarily, you guys believe in keeping the 5 K's because Guru Gobind Singh Ji said so (so there is no conflict in your belief system).

I however, believe that all men are equal because it makes sense (it doesnt matter if i learned it from Jesus, Guru Nanak Dev Ji, or the declaration of Independance). Therefore, if I was to believe in keeping the 5 K's, it would also have to make sense inorder for their not to be a conflict.

Caspian,

Guru Fateh.

You have answered your own question as a philosopher in a logical manner by using the words believe and make sense in the same sentence. These both entangle personal belief which is nothing to do with anyone else but you and your inner self.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Caspian]

Agreed, I've realized that before. Religion is a personal matter. But belief and knowledge are not mutually exclusive. Belief is a neccesary component of knowledge (and knowledge has to "make sense"). If your trying to say that I cant use the word "believe" and "make sense" in the same sentance—thats essentially a tacit admission that there are illogical beliefs in religion. Even with regards to the personal nature of religion, the 5 K's are something that put your religion on the fore front. They define you, make you unique, your religion becomes more then just personal then.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

I was writing this when your response to Tejwant ji came through. Now I understand that you were really asking for permission to cut your hair. I will nonetheless send in what I have already written. It may or may not be helpful. I know if my son had cut his hair, it would have been terribly painful to both my husband and me, but there is NOTHING he could have done that would make him any less our son. OK, what I had written:

I did not feel complete as a Sikh until I was blessed with Amrit (although I realised that only in hindsight). However, that would be a pretty poor reason to enter into such a serious step and I cannot in good conscience suggest it.

As much as I dislike it, Tejwant Singh ji may be right. My best shots seem not to have convinced you at all. If you go that way, I would suggest that you wait a bit. Maybe someone else will say something that will make sense to you or perhaps you will see something new in something already said. Just be very sure it is something you need to do. It is an irrevocable step, a bit like surrendering one's virginity. The hair would grow back, but it wouldn't be the same.

 

[Caspian]

Lol, Im going to take this oppertunity to just listen to you guys (sometimes i talk to much) cuz the discussion is becoming interesting So im shutting my mouth for a while, you guys have some pretty interesting stuff to say.

Again, I deep appreciate all of you for taking part.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Agreed, I've realized that before. Religion is a personal matter. But belief and knowledge are not mutually exclusive. Belief is a neccesary component of knowledge (and knowledge has to "make sense"). If your trying to say that I cant use the word "believe" and "make sense" in the same sentance—thats essentially a tacit admission that there are illogical beliefs in religion. Even with regards to the personal nature of religion, the 5 K's are something that put your religion on the fore front. They define you, make you unique, your religion becomes more then just personal then.

Please read my post again. I never said anything that you are implying in your post. I only said that a belief that makes sense is a personal endevaour and no one else has to understand it because it makes sense to you and it may not make sense to someone else. Stop reading between the lines, Mr. Philosopher.

 

[Taranjeet singh]

I do not much that is going on and if there is any direction in the thread. But looking at Tejwant ji's post I am reminded of and old saying that we learnt in schools that habits die hard. We must allow some gestation period for this to those who need it.

 

[spnadmin]

Well after I checked the chat box and my mail this Navdeep ji was the first post that I read this morning on logging into the network.

You have me in tears. :happykaur:

Thank you for this deep reflection -- it could not have been easy for you to say all of this and somehow we have to preserve your words for the future. Not let this fall to a lost space in the forum archives.


These words say so much, "-Corrupt Society, big finger pointing at me telling me who i should be...difference between this finger and the one before was, that my parents actually care about me and my well being "

 

[yachi]

i dont think so that removing hairs from body is bad ... our religion teach us many good things instead of making an issues for that things we shud concentrate on values of gurbani ..........

 

[Jagmeet_hazursahib]

y is this poll being conducted ?
"so kyu manda aakhiyen jit janmein Rajaan'
[ y shud we denounce a woman when even kings and great men r born from her ? ]
-Guru Nanak Dev Ji

 

[spnadmin]

y is this poll being conducted ?
"so kyu manda aakhiyen jit janmein Rajaan'
-Guru Nanak Dev Ji

The poll is an interactive feature. Some members enjoy it, comparing their responses to the others. It is not a research study. :happykaur:

 

[Jagmeet_hazursahib]

The poll is an interactive feature. Some members enjoy it, comparing their responses to the others. It is not a research study. :happykaur:

so do u like bein denounced Ms.Narayanjot kaur?

 

[Randip Singh]

so do u like bein denounced Ms.Narayanjot kaur?

Jagmeet ji,

We pride ourselves on SPN being a premier discussion forum.

We:

Think
Discuss
Share
Learn
Evolve

Not Argue, Bicker, Insult, Dismiss, and De-evolve.

I welcome you here, but please join the spirit of this forum.

Thanks

 

[Randip Singh]

On this question, it has always occurred to me that our Tenth Master chose to call men Singh and women Kaur.

Although he elevated both of our status, he kept our names distinct and seperate, recognising our differences.

By making women keep all of their bodily hair are we denying them their femininity, which our Tenth Master recognised?

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

On this question, it has always occurred to me that our Tenth Master chose to call men Singh and women Kaur.

Although he elevated both of our status, he kept our names distinct and seperate, recognising our differences.

By making women keep all of their bodily hair are we denying them their femininity, which our Tenth Master recognised?

Not at all. My femininity is not dependent on my outward appearance; it is part and parcel of who and what I am.

I was as feminine when I was fighting a murderous mob in Delhi as I was as a demure bride at my Anand Karaj. I am as feminine at 58 with a slight mustache and a few stray chin hairs and 75 pounds overweight as I was as a pregnant young wife of 18.

Being feminine is an attitude, not an appearance. And nobody "makes" me keep my body hair; it is a free choice on my part, as I already explained earlier in this thread.

I can, of course, speak only for myself, but I imagine most keshdhari Kaurs would echo what I am saying.

:happykaur:

 

[Randip Singh]

Not at all. My femininity is not dependent on my outward appearance; it is part and parcel of who and what I am.

I was as feminine when I was fighting a murderous mob in Delhi as I was as a demure bride at my Anand Karaj. I am as feminine at 58 with a slight mustache and a few stray chin hairs and 75 pounds overweight as I was as a pregnant young wife of 18.

Being feminine is an attitude, not an appearance. And nobody "makes" me keep my body hair; it is a free choice on my part, as I already explained earlier in this thread.

I can, of course, speak only for myself, but I imagine most keshdhari Kaurs would echo what I am saying.

:happykaur:

I suppose you are right.

No one is holding a gun to anyone's head when they take Amrit, and they are going in with both eyes open.

 

[spnadmin]

Yes.

And in my opinion, when someone has taken the decision to keep the 5 kakkars, the reactions they get from those who have not made this choice need not sound like a support group.