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Karni Nama and Raj Nama: The Sikh Book of Prophecy

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Gyani Jarnail Singh, Apr 18, 2010.

  1. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    The Karni Namah and the Raj Namah are two significant chapters of the Sau Sakhi, the Sikh book of prophecy. The Raj Namah appears in, The History Of The Sikhs, by J D Cunningham on p. 340. Cunningham came across this document during the mid 19th century. He states that these compositions are of course fabulous as regards Guru Nanak.

    The Karni Namah was told to Qazi Rukan Din, Pir Bahaoud Din, Ghous, Kuthab, Saalaar, Hajji, Sheikh and Mushaikh Aulviya, who sat with Guru Nanak at religious discussions. The Raj Namah was told to Kaarun, on Guru Nanak’s return from medina."

    Karni Nama


    While Guru Nanak was in Mecca and Medina, Qazi Rukan Din asked, ?True King, tell us your prophecy again. Tell us how you will unfold the future?.
    Your name is Nanak Nirankari and you are from the Nation of the Lord. What are the instructions for the future?

    Nanak replied Rukan Din, listen to the true answer
    Whosoever reads or listens to this shall be content. All doubts shall be removed.

    In the tenth dress shall reside The Lord.

    I shall fight many battles against Emperor Aurangzeb.

    I shall then send a letter of victory (Zafarnamah) to Aurangzeb with my Singh (Bhai Daya Singh).

    Upon seeing him, Power shall lessen and he shall forget his devious ways.

    Emperor Aurangzeb will be overwhelmed by the sight of Daya Singh and will start to tremble.

    The Khalsa been resurrected! Good has not been done by Gobind Singh?

    I shall leave having given a kingdom; My name being Gobind

    There will be a time when the Khalsa shall forget the teachings I have given them. Sikhi will only be left in name. Many Wars shall occur.

    I will have to return again to resurrect the Khalsa. They shall reside in the Punjab.

    I shall make people from all four corners into one.

    They will be in Majjha; They will raid Lahore.

    They will bring Potohaar to justice; They will take Peshawar.

    They will set up a cantonment at Attock and then open the Khyber Pass.

    They will establish a kingdom in Kabul and then take Ghazni.

    After bringing Hazaara to justice they will march on to Kandahar.

    After taking Balack and Buckaara, they will conquer Sindh and Baloch.

    After gaining victory over these lands they shall govern all the people.

    Mecca, Medina and Rome shall tremble.

    They shall gain victory in battle over south and west India.

    The Guru's Army shall sit at the throne of Delhi.

    Umbrellas of kingship shall sway over their heads. All shall be content.

    From East to West all shall be conquered. None shall challenge the Khalsa. All humanity shall become one.

    In the kingdom of the True King, Satjug shall be established.

    The Khalsa Panth shall rule. The arrows of death shall not touch them.

    The Army of the Timeless shall grow and spread like locusts.

    All shall wear vestments of blue; no one else shall be seen.

    Listen Qazi Rukan Din, The Singhs shall rule.

    The Unholy Sheikhs shall be destroyed. Pirs and Mureeds shall be no more.

    All shall recite the one name of the Lord. Then he shall come himself.

    The untrue shall not be able to see his glory.

    All humanity shall unite and he will distribute provinces.

    The Earth shall give food and the mountains shall give diamonds.

    Fruits of many kinds there shall be, upon the sight of the timeless.

    All shall recite VAHEGURU and achieve salvation.

    Many Dharamsalas (places of discussion) shall exist. The Koran and the Mosques shall vanish.

    The Lord shall manifest himself in body (as man).

    He will make all utter VAHEGURU. All Singhs shall flock under his banner.

    All shall know him as the True One. He will sit at the throne of Delhi.

    He will establish a kingdom of peace and no enemies will remain.

    Wherever the Khalsa turns his eye, the 14 realms shall tremble.

    For 14,000 years, this kingdom shall remain.

    Wealth will be collected and food shall be distributed.

    The naked and the starving shall all receive; no one will go without.

    Sayeth Nanak, Rukan Din, This is how it shall be.

    Whosoever reads the Karni Namah, his love with The Lord shall grow.

    The Word of the Timeless shall prevail. Those uttering falsehood shall not remain.

    After the effect of The Akaal, forests, mountains and the world shall see salvation.

    The Khalsa shall Rule. There will be no-one left to oppose them.

    All who are lost shall gain the safety of the Khalsa



    Raj Nama


    Spoken by the First Master

    First, Nanak went to Mecca;

    Medina he afterwards visited.

    The lord of Mecca and Medina,

    Kaarun, he made his disciple.

    When Nanak was about to depart,

    Kaarun, the fortunate, thus spoke:

    Now thou art about to go,

    But when wilt thou return?

    Then the Guru thus answered:

    When I put on my tenth dress

    I shall be called Gobind Singh;

    Then shall all Singhs wear their hair;

    They shall accept the 'Pahal' of the two-edged Sword

    Then shall the Khalsa be established;

    Then shall men exclaim 'Vaheguru'

    The four races shall become one and the same;

    The five weapons shall be worn by all.

    In Kalyug they shall array themselves in vestments of blue;

    The name of the Khalsa shall be everywhere.

    In the time of Aurangzeb

    The wondrous Khalsa shall arise.

    Then shall battles be waged,

    Endless war shall ensue,

    And fighting shall follow year after year.

    They shall place the name of Gobind Singh in their hearts.

    When many heads shall be rendered up,

    The Empire of the Khalsa shall prevail.

    First, they shall conquer Punjab;

    Then other countries shall be theirs;

    Hindustan and the North shall be possessed by them;

    Then the west shall bow to them.

    When they enter Khorasan,

    Kabul and Kandahar shall lie low.

    When Iran has been laid prostrate,

    Arabia shall be conquered and they shall march on to Mecca.

    Mecca shall be beheld,

    And Medina shall be seized.

    Mighty shall be the rejoicing,

    And all shall exclaim 'Vaheguru'.

    Unbelievers shall everywhere be destroyed;

    The holy Khalsa shall be exalted.

    Beasts and Birds shall tremble in the presence of the Lord.

    Men and Women shall everywhere call on God.

    The Earth, the Oceans and the Heavens shall call on God.

    By calling on the Guru shall men be blessed.

    Every faith shall become of the Khalsa;

    No other religion will remain.

    'Vaheguru' shall everywhere be repeated,

    And pain and trouble shall depart.

    In the Kalyug shall the Kingdom be established,

    Which Nanak received from the Lord.

    Worthless, I fall before God;

    Nanak, the slave, cannot comprehend the ways of the Lord.

    Thus replied Nanak to Kaarun's question.


    Footnote:

    "Note the couplets " I shall return to reserect the Khalsa", "All shall wear vestments of blue", "All Sikhs shall flock under his banner." These statements do not hang well with these sects. Their 'Guru' has not reserected the Khalsa so it follows that any second coming of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is yet to come. All shall wear blue, this is one of the colours of the Khalsa, most sects wear white. All Sikhs shall frock under his banner, most Sikhs reject these sects so it cannot be talking about them."
     

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    #1 Gyani Jarnail Singh, Apr 18, 2010
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  3. Bahadar S

    Bahadar S
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    Thank You for posting this.In Assa-di-Vaar, the following words "Neel Bastar Ley Kaprey Pahrey, Turk Pathani Amal Kiya." - meaning that people started wearing blue clothes and started following the ways of the Turks. It clearly denotes that the blue garments were worn by the Muslims.
    Dhillvan is a village located near Kot Kapura. When Guru Gobind Singh went to that village he came to know that a large number of Sodhis of the family of Kaul Ji, who was descendent of Prithi Chand, the eldest brother of his great grandfather (Guru Arjan Dev), had settled there. Kaul Ji had four sons, Satta Nand, Har Nand, Amrik Rai and Banwali. Banwali's son, Abhai Ram, was very virtuous. He too had four sons, Sri Ram, Praja Pat, Sri Ram Kuar and Jaspat. On hearing about the Guru's arrival in their village, they all came to see him, along with Kaul Ji. Thc Guru welcomed them and met them with open arms.
    Kaul Ji expressed sorrow at the destruction of the city of Anandpur and the martyrdom of the Guru's four sons. He also enquired about Kapura's welfare as he was Kaul Ji's follower. The Guru told him all what had transpired at Kot Kapura and said, "Kapura, who is an agent and a sycophant of the Mughals, had been virtually rooted out"
    . Kaul Ji: "But he is my follower and his roots are in my belly. Whoever wants to destroy him will first have to tear my belly". Guru Ji replied "Kaul Ji, if he is after tearing your belly, you yourself will be eager to destroy him."
    This conversation filled Kaul Ji with anxiety as he knew that Guru Ji's words, like Lord Rama's arrows, were bound to hit the target. He did not pursue this point further and went home, along with his family, in a subdued and sorrow-ful mood. He spent whole of the night in anxiety. On the following day, after completing his morning prayers, he came again and presented to the Guru a set of new white dress. He asked the Guru to give up wearing blue-coloured clothes and change over to white. The Guru agreed. He tore off the blue clothes bit by bit and threw the pieces in the fire lit up in front of him, in the presence of Kaul Ji.
    In the sixty first sakhi of the Sau Sakhi, there is this episode about Kalyuga meeting with Guru Nanak, which is as under:-
    "Once early in the morning Kaliyuga manifested himself far away from the city, in a terrible form for the sight of Guru Nanak (as recorded in the Janam Sakhi). He had his naked organ of procreation in one hand and the tasteful tongue in the other; he had blue garments on his body."​
    'Nil bastar le kapre phare; Turk Pathani amal gaya. (I have torn the blue clothes which I wore; the rule of the Turks and Pathans is at an end.)
     
  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    1. This doesnt portray Guru nanak Correctly

    2. Prophecy is NOT a part of Gurmatt..becasue this interferes with His HUKM - no matter what its HE who decides ultimatley what will happen..and He can change His Mind at the last split second..so NOTHING is for certain..its ALL in HIS MIND only..NO one else KNOWS.

    3. These words cannot be spoken by Guru nanak Ji because whatever He "spoke" was Khasam ki Bani...and that is recorded in the AAD Granth (SGGS) by Guru Arjen Ji Sahib. IF these words were indeed spoken by Guru nank ji sahib..they would have been recorded in the SGGS.

    4. The authorship of this poem is UNKNOWN. No certification by Bhai Gurdass Ji, the well known Historian who wrote the Vaars describing Guru nanak Jis journeys and travels and this is not mentioned in his vaars or wriitngs.

    5. The Poem looks like the well crafted "backward" plots used by most novelists. This techniqie is when a writer wants to spin a tall tale (fiction) he actually BEGINS at the END...and works BACKWARD to the beginning. All his readers will begin reading form the START (naturally)...and as the tale unfolds..will discover certian clues etc..BUT the author has all this sorted out well before hand.

    6. NOTICE the ANTI-MUSLIM BIAS stands out like a SORE THUMB. Typical of the work of writers who had an ANTI-MUSLIM streak. This goes very much AGAINST GURMATT (universal religion), the PRACTISE of the GURUS in real Life as we can see form AUTHENTIC SIKH HISTORY. Guru nanak ji went to Mecca, Medina, into Mosques to Pray witht he Muslims, Guru nanank ji had much to advise the Muslims about their religion,..
    The succeeding GURUS had very very good and cloise relations with many Muslims..Mian Mir, paindeh Khan, Syeds and all....the Fantastic relationship Guru Gobind Singh Ji had with Pir Budhu Shah is LEGENDARY - Pir martyred 700 of his MUSLIM MUREEDS and His FOUR SONS fighting FOR Guru Gobind Singh Ji AGAINST FELLOW MUSLIMS in the battle of Bhnagganni ( This battle is completley wiped out of the natak that is suppsoedly Guru Jis AUTOBIOGRAPHY - solid proof that the natak was penned by an anti-muslim writer out to WHITEWASH this episode of Sikh UNIVERSALITY BROTHERHOOD and sarbatt da Bhalla).
    Quote: The Unholy Sheikhs shall be destroyed. Pirs and Mureeds shall be no more.
    Many Dharamsalas (places of discussion) shall exist. The Koran and the Mosques shall vanish.
    No other religion will remain
    -

    a)When Guru Teg bahdur Ji was brought before Aurengzeb, the Emperor told Guru ji..Its my wish that ONLY ONE RELIGION- ISLAM.. remain. Guru ji told him...You are WRONG...Now there are TWO religions..Hindu and Islam..SOON there will be THREE..the KHALSA !! Guru teg bahadur Ji Gave His HEAD for the Right of HINDUISM to survive...and here its Guru nanak ji being made to say that.."there will be only ONE religion" (KHALSA..the exact haumaii filled boast of Aurengzeb ??) what a travesty of TRUTH and History. Negates the supreme sacrifice of Guru Teg bahadur Ji.

    b) WHY should the KORAN and the MOSQUES VANISH ?? arent they places dedicated to GOD ?? WHY did GURU HARGOBIND SAHIB JI BUILD a MOSQUE ?? Apart form the Supreme sacrifice of Guru Teg bahdur Ji for HINDUISM's Rights...the Mosque constructed by Guru hargobind Ji is another solid PROOF of the Universality and Brotherhood the House of nanak Practises....the Guru Ki Maseet still stands TODAY !! Would Guru nanak Ji really predict that a Mosque that the Sixth Guru BUILT woudl be "destroyed" ??? why build it then ??

    7. Notice Guru nanak Ji "predicts" the establishemnt of DHARAMSHALAS..but the writer forgot to mention that it was GURDWARAS that came to be established ( in the time that is prophecised). The Khalsa never called its places of worship dharamshalas..only used this term in Guru nanak jis time...

    8. The Line..I SHALL RETURN is a direct affront ot the Gurgadee of Sahib Sri Guru Granth sahib ji....Guru Gobind Singh ji could have very well chosen an able lving successor (His four SONS among the many choices ) IF He had so desired..BUT He DIDNT. He passed on the Gadee of the House of nanak to the GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI. This "line" presumes to make a JUDGEMENT that the GURU GRANTH JI is NOT sarab kala smarath..not Sampooran..somehow LACKING..not enough...to Provide LEADERSHIP to the Guru Khalsa Panth and that a RETURN of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is required and necessary. This is an INSIDIOUS fake assumption which is enough to throw this entire document in the rubbish bin.

    9. This RETURN..is a popular "idea" with many religions...the SECOND COMING !! Actually all this is a PSYCHOLOGICAL NECESSITY of some who just cannot...LET GO..and conclude..My Work is DONE. On a lesser level we have among us..many who " resign"..and then work ..behind the scenes..trying to influence..play politics...In reality...MOST of US..dont take lightly to the IDEA that our "time is UP...DEATH is here..we have to wrap up and GO....that is WHY the FEAR OF DEATH is as universal and strong...almost 99.9% of Humans GO DRAGGING THEIR FEET..none ever goes willingly...and THIS SECOND COMING is an "extension" whereby creative minds give VENT to their own FRUSTRATIONS at having to GO..when the FINAL CALL COMES !! We just cannot ACCEPT thats its all over..FINIS...so we Imagine..we FICTIONALISE..we FANTASISE...and this results in this....prophecies..second comings ( to really FINISH..whats left off UNFINISHED !! Ha Ha..what proof that the so called "second coming" will be really FINAL..will really COMPLETE everything??? Why Not THIRD COMING...FOURTH COMING..FIFTH ??? The JEWS are waiting for a Messiah..the Muslims have sects that REFUSE to accept the FINALITY of Prophet Muhammad and have been "giving birth" to many messiahs as well...the Namdharees as a sect in Sikhism also gave vent to this Messiah idea to Move forward their own Living GURU...and thus Sought to DENY the Gadee of GURU GRANTH SAHIB ji as FINAL.

    10. ALL others just had ONE HUMAN LIFE TIME to do waht thye came to do...Sikhism is truly UNIQUE...in that we had 10 LIFETIMES....to complete the JOB...and then we have a TRULY ETERNAL GURU...the Guru Granth sahib Ji...with this 239 YEAR PROJECT and ETERNAL GURU..who needs a "second coming " ????

    11. The First few lines are about Guru Gobind Singh Ji...then He "leaves".
    The next lines are all about Banda Singh bahadurs time and Maharaja ranjit Singhs time...those about Hazarra (conqered by hari Singh nalwa for Ranjit Singh) Sindh, Baloch..Cantonment at Attock etc etc.

    11. Quote: The Lord shall manifest himself in body (as man).

    This is the MOST anti-Gurmatt line of all...The CREATOR NEVER comes in the body of man...is NEVER BORN is the central philsophy of the Gurbani repeated so many times in the SGGS. Guru Gobind Singh Ji has said so clearly as well.
    This is a HINDU IDEA..idea of AVATAARISM....not Gurmatt sanctioned at all.

    Extra note:
    Veer Bahadur Singh Ji in hsi post above has made a huge error (inadvertent or not i give him the benfit of the doubt).

    In the beginning of the post he gives the CORRECT line form Aasa Ki vaar..as :
    "Neel Bastar Ley Kaprey Pahrey, Turk Pathani Amal Kiya.

    BUT in the concluding lines..he gives a wrong quote:

    'Nil bastar le kapre phare; Turk Pathani amal gaya. (I have torn the blue clothes which I wore; the rule of the Turks and Pathans is at an end.)

    The First quote: Guru nanak Ji is mentioning the Prevalent corruption/advocacy of the Invader/ruler/ that the Priests/brahmins/etc etc ADOPTED to GAIN ACCEPTANCE in the eyes of the RULERS. This acceptance is a sign of Moral DECADENCE..sell out. Guru nanak ji says derisively..Look at these Frauds..they wear Blue clothes ( traditional Hindu/Brahmin colour is Saffron/white)..they follow the ways and customs of the TURK..the Pathans...the Invaders...in other lines Guru ji tells us how these frauds also discarded their LABGUAGE and adopted the invaders language..etc etc..
    The WORDS - PEHREY..meaning WEAR....and AMAL KIYA..is FOLLOW..ADOPTED.

    2. In the Concluding Quote the KEY words have been CHANGED:
    Pehrey (wear) to PHAREH (TEAR..as in torn to bits )..and Amal KIYA (adopted ways) to GAYA...Come to an END !! And this Changed version is in BOLD and Highlighted in RED.

    3. After CHANGING the words of Asa Ki vaar..the ENGLISH translation then "FITS" the Sau Sakhi version of events !!! I leave the readers to judge for themsleves.

    I apologise in advance if i have somehow misread Bahadur Singhs post...i welcome an explanation.

    This post is an OFF the CUFF posting...i will add more as soon as i return from Gurdawra ..as today is Sunday..and this is the day i go to local Gurdwara for some spiritual food.
     
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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    The BLUE colour used to be more universal than is now....all paintings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the Panj Piayare at vasakhi 1699 usually show them all wearing BLUE Bannas. The Nihungs almost always all wear BLUE Bannas and Dastaars.
    When I was younger..early 50's most GURDWARA NISHAN SAHIBS used to be BLUE with BLACK KHANDA/Chakr in the middle....

    After 1947..when SAFFRONISATION began in earnest...the BLUE has almost disappeared except in NIHUNG Jathebandis..and some AKJ/Taksali deras.One almost NEVER sees a BLUE Nishan Sahib..and the Panj in Nagar Kirtans prades etc are almost ALWAYS in SAFFRON. SIROPAS etc are also 100% SAFFRON...never a blue one !!

    The SRM mandates a UNIQUE SIKH COLOUR which is NOT "SAFFRON/DARK ORANGE" borrowed form the HINDUS. The SRM mandates a BLUE surmaii and or Xynthia (YELLOWISH/orangish colour)

    The nanksari deras and Namdharees and radha Soamis always prefer WHITE.
     
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  6. Tejwant Singh

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    Narayanjot ji,

    Guru fateh.

    Thanks for asking these wonderfully put inquisitive questions.

    As mentioned many times before that Prophets are nothing but snake oil salesmen, the so called palm readers with the aura and smoke screen of spiritual incense.

    Sikhi has nothing to do with either the prophets or their prophecies as many dogmatic religions dwell in.

    Pragmatism, which Sikhi is based on does not have any room for the prophets nor for the prophecies.

    This is the reason Guru Nanak gave us 3 rules of thumb as our GPS to lead a life of a house holder, the three bricks for the foundation of the home of Miri-Piri.

    1. Naam Japnah- Understanding and using Gurbani as the tool box to construct a positive life that can make a difference.

    2. Kirat Karni- Using the tools from SGGS to have a work plan as a true student from the very young age. Studying hard and diligently and honestly- no cheat sheets preparations- and as an older student of life, working in an honest manner to make a living.

    3. Vand kei Chaknah- Only Ik Ong Kaar gives. A Sikh has no capacity to do so. So by having reaped the fruits by sowing the seeds with the above two, a Sikh starts sharing with others. As a student at a school or in a college, helping others who need help like tutoring and other things and as a student of life, helping anyone who needs a hand in anyway or form, irrespective of their hue,creed of faith.

    Who needs prophets or prophecies after this?

    Lastly, Gyani ji has rightfully pointed out the trickery used above to make Sikhi a blind faith which it is not because blind faiths make people blind without the knowledge of braille to read through it.

    That is why for me, Sikhi is neither a belief system nor a faith but a way of life which needs no prophets, no prophecies but a Guru to show us the WAY. And we have SGGS now, our only Guru, our only Guide, our only GPS.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  7. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Tejwant ji

    Thank you for your kind words, but more importantly for your succinct and powerful lesson in how to be a Sikh. Nothing can be more than the 3 keys to our faith,
    1. Naam Japna.
    2. Kirat Karni
    3. Vand kei Chakna

    It continually perplexes me that some among us believe that we need more and start searching beyond SGGS for that extra rationalization.

    For the record - There was some behind the scenes editing when this thread was started. I posted for Gyani ji who was busy, with the understanding that later the thread would be posted under his name. Gyani was able to come back online later, at which time I changed the poster's name to his name from my name, I also deleted the questions you are referring to. Now I can only remember 2 of them. Is there a place for prophecy in Sikhism? Would Guru Nanak have uttered the words in Karni Nama and Raj Nama. There was a 3rd questions, now lost. I also asked a follow-up about blue garments. Sorry for any confusion. Sometimes I do upload for other people.
     
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  8. Bahadar S

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    'Nil bastar le kapre pahire Turk Pathani amal kiya'.(The Turks an Pathans put on blue clothes and reigned.) THIS IS WRITTEN IN ASA DI VAAR.

    According to Historical Text Guru Gobind Singh ji did say

    'Nil bastar le kapre phare; Turk Pathani amal gaya. (I have torn the blue clothes which I wore; the rule of the Turks and Pathans is at an end.) To Kaul Ji

    The Guru meant the alteration as a curse on the Turks and Pathans. It was deemed an impious act to alter any part of the Granth Sahib. This the Guru did not deny, but said he hoped that the murder of his father and of his own children and the grievous sufferings of his Sikhs were a sufficient atonement. A piece of his blue clothes which the Guru did not consign to the fire he preserved in memory of his troubles. It is said to have subsequently suggested the blue dress of the Akalis or Nihangs. The Bastar that Guru Ji was wearing and later torn was Surmai (A Mixture of Blue and Black)
    Sorry for any confusion.

    Coming back to the Karni Namah and Raj Namah i do believe Satyug is coming soon and Sikhi Maryada, and Satguru ji shall be recognized and truthfully followed by everyone.
     
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  9. Admin Singh

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    Gurfateh Ji

    For the benefit of readers, you would like to name that "Historical Text" & also written by whom?

    Thank you!
     
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  10. Bahadar S

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    The Text this is written is in "The Sikh Religion" by Max Arthur Macauliffe
     
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  11. spnadmin

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    That is an interesting lead, Bahadur ji. Thanks for giving us the reference.
     
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  12. Bahadar S

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    This is also recorded in Guru Gobind Singh Marg where Guru Ji goes to Kotkapura and soon after Dhiwan Kalan (3km from Kotkapura) and stayed with Kaul Ji. There upon Kaul Ji's request Guru Ji discarded his Blue Dress for White Dress
     
  13. Admin Singh

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    Gurfateh ji,

    Firstly, thank you for this useful piece of "information" if you would like to call it so... well, i did some research on your posts above found this discussion at Tapoban.com, you have, it seems copy-pasted from that discussion without much changes or additions or deletions... :clevermunda:

    It is also very important to learn here that
    Max Arthur Macauliffe was born in 1842 and died in 1913. This entire period Sikhs were under the control/influence of the wicked British and also, the Sikh institutions were under the wicked control of Masands, who had with their 'leadership' taken Sikhism to the brink of extinction... They had to be eventually thrown out from the Gurdwaras as a part of the housekeeping job later on by Sikhs.

    Further, Max Arthur Macauliffe wrote all these so-called "historical texts" in connivance with Nirmale Sants, whose identity being a part of Sikh Panth is questionable even today. Keeping this fact in due perspective, it is very reasonable to dismiss the "Historical text" work done by Max Arthur Macauliffe, which was narrated by Nirmale Sants under the direct control and influence of British and there should, hardly, be any surprise to find his historical works not only sabotaging but also under-mining Sikhism.

    The posted link to Tapoban above also mentions an interesting information... in the Mahankosh on page 565 Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha states that the tukk 'NEEL BASTER LAYE KAPRE PEHRE TURK PATHANI AMAL KYA' was changed by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI to 'NEEL BASTER LAYE KAPRE PHARE TURK PATHANI AMAL GAYA' ?????

    Is this change recorded in SGGS? Gyani ji would, surely, like to put some light on this reference.


    Gurfateh!
     
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  14. Bahadar S

    Bahadar S
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    Gurfateh ji.
    Originally I heared of this Information at my local Gurdwara i did some reaserch on the original Tuk and i came across the same article on a different website which might have been copied from there :thinkingmunda:. Looking into Max Arthur Macauliffe i read part of 2 volumes of his books awhile back. I can now see that there could have been some outisde "Influence" that could show him being incorrect
     
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  15. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Aman Singh Ji,

    Although i couldnt find the Mahan Kosh ref on Page 565 or under neel, neelbastar, kaprreh, farreh etc etc either and also under Kot Kapura listing...maybe the page number provided is wrong??

    I have NO DOUBTS whatsoever that the TUK is as quoted in SGGS and recorded in Vaar Asa Ki. Ths is not the only tuk about Neel bastar..Guru Ji also says..Neel bastar pehr hoveh parvaan..meaning...THEY wear Blue clothes to gain ACCEPTANCE...this is also in Vaar Asa Ki and in SGGS.

    NO GURU SAHIB has ever DONE any "correction/alteration" to Dhur KI Bani..especially IF that Gurbani is by the AAD GURU - Guru nanak Ji Sahib. The GURU SAHIBS are all ONE JYOT...always ONE..in thought, practise...everything. This suggestion of a change is an INSULT to BOTH - Guru nanak Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji.. Such "suggestions" have been made by people like MCLeod, and his students pashaura singh etc etc...they have suggested that Guru Arjen ji may have changed the Mool mantar, or changed certain shabads of previous Guru sahibs. This is treated as Blasphemous by Sikhs because it goes against the grain of all sikhs beleif that the GURU JYOT is ONE in all aspects. SGGS is Dhur KI baanii and it comes CORRECT FIRST TIME...EVERY TIME..... NO CORRECTIONS NEEDED.

    2. It is a fallacy that the SIKH GURUS were "fighting" to "overthrow" the Mughals/Turks per se and were all out to uproot them. The GURUS fought aginst TYRANNY...ZULM...and NOT the mughals turks per se simply becasue they were mughals/turks !! IF Guru Ji has torn the blue clothes and expressed "happiness" that Turk amal is GAYA..finished..then what can we say that this was almost IMMEDIATELY replaced by the BRITISH IMPERIALISTS...who were also just as tyrranical..zalim...and then what about the HINDU IMPERIALISTS who grabbed power in POST 1947..and inflicted 1984 and Ghalooghara bigger than previous ones on the Khalsa ?? WHAT COLOUR CLOTHES SHOULD WE TEAR NOW ??? Khakhi (British Amal gaya in 1947..??) or ORANGE (hindu RSS amal is still there ???)??? The TRUTH and REALITY is the KHALSA will always REMAIN..always FIGHTING tyranny..ZULM..everywhere..now This BATTLE has gone.... world wide ..soon may go UNIVERSAL....becasue tyrants and dictators will always be around.....as well...!!!..Blue..Khakhi..Orange..Yellow..RED...GREEN... TOO !! Tyrants and Zulmee Dictators have NO COLOUR !! When they SPILL BLOOD..its always RED in colour.

    3. Signboards at various Historical gurdawras, takhats put up by the Gurdawra managements/ even the SGPC are totally UNRELIABLE. Several signboards advocate obvioulsy anti-gurmatt practises and beleifs that go against Gurbani..signboards over dried stumps, beris, trees, wells, and such marrhees, graves stones, etc etc are so obvilously anti gurmatt but they were placed by the sgpc/gurdwara managemnts. Anyone who thinks this is authentic Sikh history has a lot of studying to do. Its a travesty of truth and our misfrtune that we have such people that control the information we give out..earlier the Nirmals and udasis controlled all our gurdwars and resources and histroicla dicuments, sggs birs etc etc and changed them as they wished..and for past 60 years we have had the sgpc to dot that for us...the SGPC in collaboration with the Kar sewa Babas DESTROYED nearly all historical Gurdwars, wells, tharras, forts, havelis, bungas, etc etc associated with our Gurus and Sikh history and replaced all with look alike marble gurdwaras...ancient handwritten birs were cremated as birdh beers..1984 did a even more thorough job at the Sikh reference Library...

    5

    Thankfully..a noble initiative as the Punjab Digital library is now digitising thousands of Sikh Documents for posterity...hopefully many hostorical docs will surface and be preserved for posterity...for future generations...No document..no bir should ever be cremated ever....
     
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  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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  17. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Briefly in English:

    hari Singh Ji narrates what happeend to Gyani gurbachan Singh Ji of Taskaal.
    Gyani Ji was walking up in the Himalayas...when he came upon a TUNNEL..he entered and went on walking and walking....until finally he emerged...and saw a sarovar and strange trees..under which SINGHS sat clothed ONLY in Dastaars and Kacherras and Kakaars and Traditional Khalsa weapons hung on tree branches. One of these came forward and called Gyani Ji by Name...and then introduced himslef as Baba Banda Singh bahadur..Bhai Taru Singh shaeed..Baba DEEP Singh shaheed..Bhai mani Singh Shaheed..etc etc etc etc. Gyani ji enquired..what are all of you doing here ?? Yiu were martyred so long ago. Baba banda Singh Ji replied..When a Khalsa attains shaheedee/dies after a life time fo rehit..he is not taken away by Devtas - becasue he is NOT going to Heaven swarag..he is not taken away by jamraaj - becasue eh si not going to nark hell...He is escorted by PANJ PIYARAS. At the Doorway of Sach Khand..the Door Keeprs ask him...ARE you satisfied with naam japp/Amrti rehit/Seva of Panth etc..and IF he says YES..i am FULLY satisfied..then he is Taken IN to SACH KHAND and merges with Akal Purakh...BUT IF he says..NO..I want to do some more Naam Jaaping..seva of Panth..Rehit etc etc..then He is brought HERE...this is the DUPLICATE SACH KHAND !! We wait Here..and when the time is RIGHT..we will USE the very TUNNEL you cmae through to ENTER PUNJAB..and as is foretold by Guru nanak ji in Karnee namah/Raaj namah etc..we will Form the KHALSA RAAJ..Kingdom of Khalsa Truth..dharam..We will NOT be Born of woman again..we will go forth through this tunnel.
    Then Baba Banda Singh asked Gyani ji..what shall we serve you ? Gyani Ji aksed..what do you have Here..I only see a sarovar ?? Then a Khalsa took his Spear and stabbed the Waters of the sarovar three times..and brought out three THINGS..which were thrown into the BURNING FIRE..and Gyani Ji delcared..THIS is the best thing i have ever tasted..its ????:happysingh:
     
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  18. jasbirkaleka

    jasbirkaleka India
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    Gyani Jarnail Singh ji and Tejwant Singh ji.
    Gurfateh,
    ikonkaar Thanks for rebutting all this nonsense about prophets and prophesies with such powerful and erudite writings.happymunda
    Jasbir SIngh Kaleka.
     
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  19. BhagatSingh

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    Jarnail Singh ji, I have conflicting information.

    I was always told Saffron = Kesri (light yellow). That's confirmed by wikipedia :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saffron_(color)
    And I read that Guru Hargobind ji changed the SIkh flag from white to Saffron/Kesri (yellow-orange) during the wars. During Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time there was no particular colour it seems. Red and green flags have been recovered. Then later we reverted back to Saffron/Kesri, I think during Singh sabha.

    The Khanda in the flag, of course, is a recent invention. The old flags were simply orange or with "katar, talwar and dhal". I think its only the Nihangs that wear blue. Another thread by Narayanjot Kaur ji was talking about how Nihangs were present before the Sikh gurus and their tradition of wearing blue also goes back to their origin.

    Let's see if we can resolve this conflict.
     
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  20. spnadmin

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    Bhagat ji

    I appreciate your remembering that conversation. With your forgiveness, may I just refine one thing? The origins of the Nihangs are unclear, and it is true they were in force during the times of Dasam Pita. Some historians argue that they pre-date Dasam Pita. The jury is out. They consider themselves an independent organization, not one of the historic missls.
     
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  21. BhagatSingh

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    Jarnail Singh ji,
    I still haven't received a reply from you. It would be great if you could get back to me. This sort of thing is even more important because its going to be in my art and I want to portray (even flags) as accurately as possible.
     

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