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Karmee aavai kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.

Discussion in 'Jap Ji Sahib' started by gjsingh, Jun 16, 2014.

  1. gjsingh

    gjsingh
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    This line in japji Sahib implies that it is by works we obtain human life. Yet it is by Grace we achieve liberation. This seems to be a contradiction to me, can anyone help me understand? I don't know Gurmukhi very well, but I have the Harbans Singh translation. Is there a better translation available?
     
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  3. Luckysingh

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    karmee aavai kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.

    There's no contradiction really.........

    Karmee aavai kaprhaa= Through the karma of previous and past deeds, does one's soul receive the kaprha or cloth of body.
    Because of previous deeds, does one receive human birth......... this birth is part of the cycle of coming and going(reincarnation)
    However, one's soul may enter this same cycle dependent upon past deeds(karma).....BUT,one cannot obtain freedom from this same cycle by deeds(karma) alone.


    Mokh= is from mokhsha, liberation, salvation or freedom from cycle of coming(aavai) and going.

    So, can one get mokh/mukti from karma/deeds, since these can determine the nature of human birth ??
    answer...No !
    The line says coming(aavai), is by karmic deeds, but the mokh or freedom from such repeated coming is only by his nadar(grace)


    nadree mokh du-aar.= only his nadar/grace can take you to the du-aar/door of mokhsh.
    This can also mean that only his grace can make you free from the 9 doors that the kapra of body has !


    so, karma/deeds can determine your kapra, but it can't make you free from the cycle of birth/death.......Only his Nadar can

     
  4. gur_meet

    gur_meet India
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    The words "Karmee aavai kaprhaa " apparently appears to be referring to the Physical body having been obtained because of past karma and this is how the translators have translated it as seen below :

    ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥
    Faer K Agai Rakheeai Jith Dhisai Dharabaar ||
    So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court?
    ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
    Muha K Bolan Boleeai Jith Sun Dhharae Piaar ||
    What words can we speak to evoke His Love?
    ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
    Anmrith Vaelaa Sach Naao Vaddiaaee Veechaar ||
    In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.
    ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
    Karamee Aavai Kaparraa Nadharee Mokh Dhuaar ||
    By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.
    ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥
    Naanak Eaevai Jaaneeai Sabh Aapae Sachiaar ||4||
    O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||
    ਜਪੁ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨ ਪੰ. ੬


    when we look at the pungtees in sequence then it becomes clear that reference is regarding present life only . In Amritvela the simran done is the Karam . The word "kapra" here is symbolic of the person having changed in mind through Sat ( true) karam as per Guru's explained way. The guru's grace ( gur parshad) then leads to Mokh Duaar.
     
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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    The Reincarnation theory falls flat..when Guru Nanak ji asks this QUESTION !! What "karams" did the Very First Humans did to be born Human ?? when there were no karams, no punns, no paaps, what was the CRITERIA ??

    Same way the Earth resting on Bulls Horns fell FLAT..when Guru Nank Ji Again asks..granted that this earth is resting on a bulls horns..BUT on what is the BULL standing ON ?? WHERE is the FOUNDATION ??

    GURU Nnak Ji has DEMOLISHED ALL 100% of previous Gyaan/myths/beliefs/theories....His GURBANI gives the most MODERN up to date latest GYAAN...read his Gurbani free from all ENCUMBRANCES...only then can you get the TRUE Message of Gurbani.....Karmas, kapprahs, re-births, incarnations, paaps, punns, kalyugs and satyugs....etc etc DONT mean the same in GURBANI context...as they do in Vedas, hinduism, earlier beleif systems....
    BEGIN with a FRESH CLEAN MIND....
     
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  6. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Allow me to elaborate a little further with regards to how the depth of interpretation has no limits.......

    Gurbani is agam agadh bodh (ਅਗਮ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਬੋਧਿ)
    A treasure of immeasurable depth and limits. It is unlimited, infinite, all powerful.


    With one's progress and increase in spirituality, you begin to see the deeper meanings.
    Literal interpretations are not always wrong, but eventually you can begin to see the importance with the deeper interpretation.

    Looking at the above pangtees and getting a little deeper....I can currently see that 3 slightly different meanings are there... with each one getting a more deeper... there is obviously more depth which I can not yet comprehend.


    The 1st line...
    Faer K Agai Rakheeai Jith Dhisai Dharabaar.........Question is.... ''what can we do or place before him(what efforts can we make) in order to see his darbar?''

    in my limited knowledge, I can see 3 different answers, or 3 slightly varying angles of answers.....

    ((1)) One answer is...what may have been done or granted for you to be here.....ie. It tells you....'Why you have Human life'......this is the immediate literal interpretation.

    ((2)) second answer tells you..... 'What you can do right now in the present....today or tomorrow' ?

    ((3)) The third tells you ..'What you should be doing in terms of when in your life ?'


    ਫੇਰਿਕਿਅਗੈਰਖੀਐਜਿਤੁਦਿਸੈਦਰਬਾਰੁ
    Faer K Agai Rakheeai Jith Dhisai Dharabaar ||
    So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court?

    ਮੁਹੌਕਿਬੋਲਣੁਬੋਲੀਐਜਿਤੁਸੁਣਿਧਰੇਪਿਆਰੁ
    Muha K Bolan Boleeai Jith Sun Dhharae Piaar ||
    What words can we speak to evoke His Love?
    OR what prayer can we offer?


    ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ
    Anmrith Vaelaa Sach Naao Vaddiaaee Veechaar ||
    In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.

    Amrit vela is the hours before dawn,say 1-4am or so...
    Guruji is saying that one can contemplate in the early hours before getting entangled in day to day life....since at these hours there are no distractions and it is ideal time to contemplate and simar.
    this is talking about answer ((2)) as above, ...in terms of what you can do on a daily basis in the immediate present.
    Now,, Amrit vela can't be regarded as an 'auspicious' time as such, since these auspicious times are the pandit prescriptions of that time!.....which is not sikhi gurmat.
    As per gurmat, ALL hours are divine and heavenly, BUT practically for the ghristi jeevan sikh, it is more probable that deeper contemplating and simar can be done before he starts his daily working day...So these early hours before dawn are very much practical to help start and compared to the rest of the day.
    Therefore, as per individual one may call it their heavenly time, since they can submit their maximum devotion in those early hours, but it is not some chosen time by God in the sense that if you miss it or can't do it..then you are doomed!!!!

    For me and my daily life schedule... it is my practical heavenly time !
    If I was working graveyard or night shifts, then 3-5pm could be my heavenly time for devotion.
     
    Another meaning of amrit vela (much deeper) is the moments that are free from death.
    Gurbani mentions ''ant kaal'' which is the the last moments in time, that can happen whenever and wherever, according to his will.
    Therefore, Amrit vela in your life is ALL those moments that are NOT your ''ant kaal''.

    All those moments where you are alive and fresh, the early hours of morning, the early years of life.- since when you may be old and frail... you are towards the later hours of the day so to speak...............Basically, the day, the early hours, dawn, midday,dusk, evening..etc... can not just represent 24 hrs, but they can also represent your phases of life.
    We all know, that many of our babey and bibis, near or after retirement age, decide that it's time to earn the wealth of naam, take amrit, start rehat, nitnem...etc.... BUT Guruji is also saying...''Start this contemplation and simar in the early days of life as in morning of day when you are not old and frail..as in the latter part of the day''

    Amrit vela is the younger part of the day and also the younger age of our being.
    This is the deeper meaning and answer with reference to ((3))... doing the actions ''When'' in your life.
    NOTE-When child is younger, then their mind is also fresh and cleansed, as it has not been exposed to as much filth....so AGE is considered amrit vela.
    Also, when one is in jawani (before age 45 or so), then one still has that same gabru-hood energy and doesn't get tired as easily when trying to simar,contemplate and do selfless seva...etc.. compared to when after age 50, you will get fatigued much easily and need to frequent washroom!
    Amrit vela hours are when you can be the most spiritually productive and this can also be in the physical company of sadh sangat..let's say for 2 hours/day....Those 2 hours can help invoke and make all your 24hrs a productive amrit vela.

    NOTE- don't get me wrong,, I'm not talking about kala afghana-missionary nonsense of denying amrit vela !
    Amrit Vela is simply what you, yourself make it.
    There is no concrete set times,,,as if you don't do the practical before 4am, then there is no point!...nothing like that, but you have to realise and find it for when it is appropriate.

    BIG QUESTION will be .....''What if you are old and frail and never did any simran, contemplation in your active able years........and now you have no energy to sit, focus or even think straight??''
    ''What is your fate going to be then???''

    This answer is also in the next pangtee..... that it's never too late, but you can make your vela right now as
    his nadar/grace is the final deciding factor. Even if your effort of simran be miniscule and small due to very late start,...his grace can still get you through that door!

     
    Moving on to next pangtee.........

    ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ
    Karamee Aavai Kaparraa Nadharee Mokh Dhuaar ||
    By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.

    Karamee aavai kaparaa... is also about doing deeds of seva and getting that roop in the robe.
    for eg... I remember hearing a katha about how 3rd Guru did 12 years seva of Sri Guru Angad Dev ji, and he got the kaphra of prem and divine love....Again,, this is about the answer in ((2))...which is the present and the now.
    The literal translation is talking about ((1)),, of you getting this human life...... the past, previous, unknown and not to be worried about.... sikhi is unconcerned about previous deeds and paaps, because they are NEVER going to get you to his Door/duar.
    BUT saying that, neither are the deeds, karam and actions of the present guaranteed you entry !

    The mokh duar... which is when you are free from the 9 doors and go through his door and darbar by his grace.
    If his nadar takes you there, then he will open it, no matter what capacity your good deeds excel at and your paaps diminish...... it's ALL in his control, his darbar, his door, his grace......

    ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ
    Naanak Eaevai Jaaneeai Sabh Aapae Sachiaar ||4||
    O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||
     
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  7. arshi

    arshi United Kingdom
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    Good and interesting post Lucky ji,

    Just as a matter of interest and relevance in the context of this thread, below is the translation of the Fourth Pauri. I started the translation of japji quite sometime back but have not got very far. It is still very much in hand. The following translation was done about 2/3 years ago and is by no means an accurate version of the Pauri and there are many shortcomings and much room for improvement. There just cannot be one translation – there are many factors which can influence the translation. This could be a whole new topic in its own right..

    It might also be of interest to refer to the thread on Amrit Velaa – an article written years ago – again I need to revisit this and do a revised (hopefully an approved) edition of this important concept in Sikhi. Lucky ji has touched many of the points covered in this article.

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/30108-amrit-velaa.html

    Pauri (4)

    Saachaa saahib saach naa-ay bhaakhi-aa bhaa-o apaar.

    The Lord is Eternal, as is His Law. His Language is saturated in unbounded Love.

    aakhahi mangahi dayhi dayhi data karay daataar.

    People constantly beg (pray) for sustenance and gifts, the Great Provider showers these on all His creatures without reservation.

    fayr ke agai rakhee-ai jit disai darbaar.

    So what can we offer Him to express our gratitude so that we may have a glimpse of His Durbaar (Court)?

    muhou ke bolan bolee-ai jit sun Dharay pi-aar.

    What words must we speak, hearing which He may shower His Love upon us?

    amrit vaylaa sach naa-o vadi-aa-ee veechaar.

    In the Amrit Veylaa meditate upon the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Virtues.

    Note: Amrit Veylaa is normally understood to be the ambrosial hours before dawn but there is no rigid requirement – intention, discipline and consistency are important). Enenlightened souls, however, may do so at any time)

    Karmee aavai kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.

    By His Mercy (His Karam) are we bestowed the ’garment of honour’ and by His Grace do we reach the 'Gate' of Mokash (salvation/liberation/acquital/merger).

    Naanak ayvai jaanee-ai sabh aapay sachiaar.

    This is how (see note below), says Nanak, we come to understand that the True Lord is ever present, everywhere. (4)

    Note: Here Guru Nanak indicates that the answer to the questions raised in Pauris (3) and (4) lies in the final tuks of this Pauri – e.g. In the Amrit Veylaa meditate upon His True name and Glorious Virtues.

    I hope the above contribution adds to the thread and is by no means meant to cause more confusion or ambiguity.

    Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
     
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  8. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Excellent !
    I have seen the other thread you mention and I totally follow the direction inwhich you were digging there !
    I know you say it is incomplete and not finished, but the guru is agam agadh bodh, and can never be concluded as closed chapter.
    As you develop by doing the practical, then he can also grant the grace of inner knowledge and understanding.

    Although, with reference to the below..........
    ....I don't quite catch ''his karam''......I thought karam are as if they can be written, and our outcomes of recorded actions ?
    Are we saying waheguru's karam..? or is there are different interpretation for karam ??
     
    #7 Luckysingh, Jun 17, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  9. gjsingh

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    Thanks for the explanations. To me, Arshi's translation seems the most internally consistent conceptually, Its not _my_ activity but God's action that gives me the body, which is a further opportunity for receiving emancipation, also at His discretion.

    However, I respectfully ask, I thought that the Gurus definitely preached the transmigration of the soul, no? Did not Guru Gobind Singh Ji meditate at Hemkunt Sahib in a past life?

    It makes sense to me that animals also have souls, and if they have souls that they can certainly accumulate karmic debts. I'm not sure how right and wrong could apply to beings that are basically existing in a state of permanent innocence though.
     
  10. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Yes above interpretation and understanding definately alludes contradiction.

    The pankti reads 'karmi aavai kapra' Is guru sahib referring in this pankti 'karmi' the works or deeds? I think no. Gurbani throughout maintains there are two karmi or hukmi. One is our manh which rules and dictates our body and mislead us and the other is our conscience (Nijhghar). It depends to whom we listen. From my nijhghar emanates the message of 'kapra of prem'. In order to live a dignified life, my God has bestowed, 'ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਟੋਲਾ ਤੈ ਸਹਿ ਦਿਤਾ ਢਕਣ ਕੂ ਪਤਿ ਮੇਰੀ ॥ SGGS.520.1 and Gurmat way is 'nanak nadree payeea - only by exploring the treasure we can be one with gurbani and not parroting, thus 'nadree' over here is the essence - tat gian. With tat gian we can achieve state of oneness. There is no SOS type grace in gurmat.
    best regards
     
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  11. japjisahib04

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    In this pankti what intrigue me is, when Guru Sahib had already raised a question in first stanza, 'keev sachiara hoeyee keev kudeh tuteh pal' then how come need for another question, 'phair kai aagai rakhiyee jit deesai darbar, moh kee bolan boliyee jit sun dharai piyar' arises? Was not it enough to be truthful by surrendering to His will to assimilate with our creator, that guru sahib raised another question. Then what is it?

    Guru sahib in consonance to the first question is asking me now to 'phair' shift your paradigm(manh baichai satguru kai pass) to inculcate the divine attributes of our creator. To live as per the essence of gurbani is called surrender and when I am full of love, humble and soft spoken, it is the language of God and by living like this, is amrit velya.

    Vela Vakat is not a particular instant in the ever continuous time that Humans have invented based on the observations on movements Sun, Stars, and planets etc. For humans Vela is time slot of our existence on earth. (bodily existence only )

    Gurbani guides, 'uthat baithat sovat jaghat' - thus all Vela or time is Fruitful that one spends in remembrance of the Beloved who is our Creator, Source, Power and everything. Sabd Guru is the medium for Hearing ( Sunnia) pondering (Vichar) understanding (Sojhee), Believing (Maneya), and Be in Love ( Man Keeta Bhao).." Therefore we Ponder on Sabd, which is Naam for Remembrance, and Hukam (His Will) for us to live with. The life Span ( Precious Opportunity) is the Vela to get absorbed in our source through constant remembrance.
     
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  12. arshi

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    Lucky ji wrote
    Many apologies Lucky ji - in the context of the thread I should have made it clearer. Here the word ‘karam is from the Urdu language meaning His mercy, kindness as in ‘rehmo-karam’Khuda da rehmo-karam, Waheguru the karam, Satgur di kirpa or mehar.

    We constantly invoke His ‘birad’ (Lord’s wisdom, magnanimity and innate nature).

    ham agyaan alap mat thori tum aapan birad rakhaavahu (674 – 17)
    “I am just a humble person with limited knowledge but your magnanimous innate nature always comes to my rescue.”

    Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
     
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  13. Harry Haller

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    this is not a cut and dried fact, many Sikhs do not believe in reincarnation, just as some Sikhs see Hemkunt Sahib as a waste of time, money and resources, given the location and perilous journey.
     
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  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    A thought...Guru Nanak Ji Sahib was a typical Farmer in Punjab...before the advent of Tractors when a pair of Bulls was used fro ploughing the fields...the NORM was to rise around 3AM..and get the bulls ready for ploughing so that the LEAST a Farmer could accomplish was at least 2 hours of ploughing before the Sun rose and made it hot. It was the Norm for the ploughers to RETURN Home in the Morning with cut grass for the bulls/other animals at home, and take their own breakfast.
    THUS the.."Early ambriosal hours..etc are HARD WORK HOURS to the PUNJABI !!! and 500 years ago definitely so.
    Food for thought...HARD WORK is Vadiyaee Vichaar of Sach Naam !!!
     
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  15. gur_meet

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    Amritvela being so prominently mentioned in Gurbani is guidance for all walks of persons. During Amritvela it is observed that many persons are asleep , there is minimal worldly affairs to do . Rather negligible .The other aspect of this situation is that there is no pressure over the mind and senses to do worldly affairs. No office or business affairs. No social obligations. And even no other family obligations. The nature is awake. There is freshness in atmosphere.

    So this is the right and fertile position for a beginner to divert mind towards spiritual
    pursuits. The effort at this time would be fritful. As the mind too gets used to spiritual efforts then the effort comes easy at other times as well.
     
  16. japjisahib04

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    Gyani Jee

    My simple understanding is that purpose behind vadiyaee vichar is, 'ਅਵਗੁਣ ਛੋਡਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਕਉ ਧਾਵਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਅਵਗੁਣ ਪਛੁਤਾਹੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.598. Guru sahib clearly warned us, there is no definite deed in reality by the performance of which one can achieve Him, nor “God cannot be obtained by any device at all; He is the Architect of activities (Karma).” - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.510.17. He says if He could be achieved by that definite deed(like getting up and offering your morning time) then that deed will be God’s price, “whereas He has no price.” - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 9.9. Guru sahib guides, sehaj subhai mera manh maniya. I could be wrong also Giani Jee. My apologies.
     
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    #15 japjisahib04, Jun 18, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2014
  17. aristotle

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    Professor Sahib Singh also translated ਕਰਮੀ as ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਨਾਲ (with the grace of God), and in fact in the context of this pauri, this meaning fits well rather than the interpretation regarding Karmas and all.
     
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  18. aristotle

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    I haven't gone through the Harbans Singh translation, but by far, I prefer Manmohan Singh's translation from amongst the English translations. It is searchable on http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani

    Also, Rawel Singh is translating Prof Sahib Singh's Guru Granth Darpan on his blog http://www.sadhsangat.com/category/guru-granth-sahib/gurbani-translation/. It is really brilliant and highly recommended.
     
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  19. arshi

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    Absolutely agree with Prof Sahib Singh ji. As mentioned earlier, I believe 'karam' is an urdu word and stands for mercy (daya) grace, kripa, mehar.

    R.S. 'Arshi'
     
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  20. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    I too agree that 'karam' stands for grace, daya, bhakhshish, but by stating grace, daya the missing dots are not filled. How and in which form this grace and bhakhshish is rendered by God. That is why guru sahib says, 'karmi aavai kapra nadhree mokh duar - From my nijhghar emanates the message of 'kapra of prem' and that is grace or bhakhshish and Gurmat way is 'nanak nadree payeea - only by exploring the treasure we can be one with gurbani and not parroting, thus 'nadree' over here is the essence - tat gian.

    When guru sahib says, 'karmi karmi hoey veechar - over here to live as per divine traits is real veechar and not judgement is rendered.
     
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  21. arshi

    arshi United Kingdom
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    Asking questions is wonderful learning tool. However, there is a danger of over-analysing terminology and then dividing people into groups. I personally find it very difficult to observe Amrit Velaa as viewed traditionally. But I still manage to get up early enough to do my Nitnem in time to start my daily routine and chores. I then focus on a particular Bani, eg, Anabd Sahib or shabad and contemplate on its meaning and how it applies to my life. Occasionally I sit down to translate.

    i probably fit in somewhere in the middle, I think. We are all Sikhs with different approaches, believers of the one and only Satguru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. So let's not classify people into groups. We are all brothers in faith. Harry Haller ji, whose candid manner and approach I like, has made the same points nicely and succinctly. I do not agree with many of his views but I do admire him for his sense of humour and for keeping an open mind and admit when he's wrong. A great quality, we learn from each other.

    Gyani Jarnail Singh jio

    We all ask questions on the google - wonder what people did before Google came into our lives!! Perhaps eat 'goglas', a Punjabi sweet made from flour on weddings - aplogies Gyani ji couldnt resist a little harmless fun and changing the topic into a lighter mood. Although I left Punjab in early 1951, aged nine, I could always remember the nostalgic moments of weddings in Punjab and goglas, in particular; although these are still seen as a traditional 'Sagan' sweet but it's just not the same. Thanks for taking me back into the ancient past - all meant in fun.

    Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'
     
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