Karma, Freewill & Hukam In Sikhism

[findingmyway]

It is good to bump up old threads that are worthy of reading! When interpreting shabads, it is good to try and look at the shabad as a whole. I'll do my best in sharing my understanding of the shabads pulled out with the help of Prof Sahib Singh's teeka:

Page 303
Whoever fights against hukam is following his own mind and becomes entrapped by the influences of maya. That person's head is full of lies. They accept lies as truth. S/he is stuck with useless arguments. S/he can talk in circles (make a fool of others) and make many attempts to earn dinner but no-one likes their false utterances. Like an abandoned woman he walks from one house to another. Whoever associates with him also becomes blemished.

Page 476
People who are ostentatious about their outward appearance to denote goodness (wear long dhotees and a janeu, wear a mala around their neck etc). Those people are not the men of God but are thugs of Benares. I do not like those people-they are not shy to take advantage of people for the sake of temptation. These people are obsessive about cleanliness of their pots and pans etc but they are crafty and eat the whole person (by exploitation-not literally). They wander around engrossed by themselves claiming they are pure and not touched by temptation. They are drowning in ego and are bringing down their companions too. He is following his path and acting accordingly. Those that find the true Guru (Waheguru) are liberated from the pain of rebirth (not the same as reincarnation).

My understanding is that we should all try to follow a Gurmukh's path and connect with Waheguru but not everyone will be successful. However, this should not stop us from trying as both the trying and the success or lack of are hukam.

Hope that helps, Jasleen

 

[gaganrayat]

This is an excellent thread and I couldn't resist myself from asking a question.

A gentleman mentioned that tales of child born with a missing leg is because of the past karma sounds nonsense to him.... Is it Hukam ? What is the reason then? Please help....

 

[Tejwant Singh]

This is an excellent thread and I couldn't resist myself from asking a question.

A gentleman mentioned that tales of child born with a missing leg is because of the past karma sounds nonsense to him.... Is it Hukam ? What is the reason then? Please help....

Gaganrayat ji,

Guru Fateh.

Hukum is an acceptance by us as human beings and also to moive on and strive in our lives. Nature is not perfect as we all know but Ik Ong Kaar is, and nature is part of The Source. So, some are born blind as it happened in my family and some with other deformities. Some are born with great talents in many fields in the same token.

Thanks to the openmindedness bred in us by the SGGS, our only Guru, we can appreciate the technological marvels. We as Sikhs see this in a different manner than the other dogmatic Abrahamic religions are able to because for them, it all started with Adam & Eve hence the marvelous advancement in science like the artificial limbs created for our injured soldiers do not mean much.

**** Cheney is still alive today because of the portable pump. If we had not invented that, then he would have been long dead without the heart transplant.

So, for us all these advancements are part of the Hukum because the Hukum teaches us to strive to get better as beings as mentioned before.

Unfortunately, the Creationists who claim to come from Adam & Eve can not come to terms with this inner dilemma of theirs despite making the best use of science to better their lives.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[gaganrayat]

Gaganrayat ji,

Guru Fateh.

Hukum is an acceptance by us as human beings and also to moive on and strive in our lives. Nature is not perfect as we all know but Ik Ong Kaar is, and nature is part of The Source. So, some are born blind as it happened in my family and some with other deformities. Some are born with great talents in many fields in the same token.

Thanks to the openmindedness bred in us by the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, we can appreciate the technological marvels. We as Sikhs see this in a different manner than the other dogmatic Abrahamic religions are able to because for them, it all started with Adam & Eve hence the marvelous advancement in science like the artificial limbs created for our injured soldiers do not mean much.

**** Cheney is still alive today because of the portable pump. If we had not invented that, then he would have been long dead without the heart transplant.

So, for us all these advancements are part of the Hukum because the Hukum teaches us to strive to get better as beings as mentioned before.

Unfortunately, the Creationists who claim to come from Adam & Eve can not come to terms with this inner dilemma of theirs despite making the best use of science to better their lives.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejawant Singh Ji,

Thanks for the answer... I know about Abrahamic Religions but some of the said things were probably too technical for me.. I understand when you said that some are born with deformities(condolences) and some are very talented and we just have to move on. but is that because of something they did in their previous birth? and is it fair that someone faces the wrath of his/her actions from the past birth?

I am sorry if you had answered my question in the reply but please simplify it for me.

Regards,

Gagandeep Singh

 

[Ambarsaria]

Gagandepp Singh veer ji you might enjoy the following thread too,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/33225-what-is-karma-in-buddhism-sikhi.html

It was good and elaborate dialog at times a little cryptic. See if that clarifies or helps you ask other questions or thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejawant Singh Ji,

Thanks for the answer... I know about Abrahamic Religions but some of the said things were probably too technical for me.. I understand when you said that some are born with deformities(condolences) and some are very talented and we just have to move on. but is that because of something they did in their previous birth? and is it fair that someone faces the wrath of his/her actions from the past birth?

I am sorry if you had answered my question in the reply but please simplify it for me.

Regards,

Gagandeep Singh

Gagandeep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

The fact of the matter is that reincarnation is not part of Sikhi. It is the Hindu belief that our Gurus did acknowledge because the majority was Hindu then. But our Gurus also put a caveat that anyone who becomes a Gursikh can get rid of this belief. That is why at the end of every Shabad where the belief of reincarnation is mentioned, you will find the tools how to get rid of this belief.

After all it IS a belief because no one has come back to tell us what it was all about.

That is why Sikhi is not a belief system. It is based on the Truth Seekers and Truth stands on its own. It needs no belief. Only make believe things need beliefs hence the world is full of blind faiths/beliefs.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[gaganrayat]

Gagandeep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

The fact of the matter is that reincarnation is not part of Sikhi. It is the Hindu belief that our Gurus did acknowledge because the majority was Hindu then. But our Gurus also put a caveat that anyone who becomes a Gursikh can get rid of this belief. That is why at the end of every Shabad where the belief of reincarnation is mentioned, you will find the tools how to get rid of this belief.

After all it IS a belief because no one has come back to tell us what it was all about.

That is why Sikhi is not a belief system. It is based on the Truth Seekers and Truth stands on its own. It needs no belief. Only make believe things need beliefs hence the world is full of blind faiths/beliefs.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Sat Shri Akal,

Thanks for the link Ambarsaria Ji.

Tejwant Singh Ji,

So if it's no reincarnation hence no Karma.... so every life is a new beginning , if i have understood it right...

So on what basis is one born talented or with deformity?

I apologize if I am making things harder for you.

Regards,

Gagandeep Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Sat Shri Akal,

Thanks for the link Ambarsaria Ji.

Tejwant Singh Ji,

So if it's no reincarnation hence no Karma.... so every life is a new beginning , if i have understood it right...

So on what basis is one born talented or with deformity?

I apologize if I am making things harder for you.

Regards,

Gagandeep Singh

Gaganddep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Interaction is a learning process. It does not make things harder for anyone but to the contrary. After all we are all here to learn from each other. How hard that can be?

Secondly to your claim about what I said-" hence no Karma"- is incorrect and false. I never claimed that. Please read my posts in the thread Ambarsaria ji had posted before. You will see what I said about Karma.

So on what basis is one born talented or with deformity?

The simple answer for a Sikh is that we do not know. Perhaps one day we shall find out.

Enjoy your journey.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[gaganrayat]

Sat Shri Akal Tejwant Singh Ji,

Thank you for your views, your help is much appreciated.

Regards,

Gagandeep Singhpeacesignkaur

 

[Harry Haller]

This is an older thread on Hukam, with some interesting observations, I think Hukam is one of the most widely misunderstood facets of Sikhism, let us all try and get to the bottom of it, so as not to keep padding out other threads with debates on the subject, for me Hukam is the path of truth, a bit like a sat nav, that nags you when you deviate from the path, in fact my favourite saying is 'rerouting' which happens often because I keep deviating away from the path, and I then have to go twice as far to get to the same point due to my wandering.

It is a complicated subject and yet a very simple one, I would be interested to hear others opinions on what Hukam actually means to them

 

[Sherdil]

Here's my take:

There are 2 objective truths about existence. There is a beginning and an end. Existence progresses in a linear fashion between these 2 points. The driving force behind this progression is Hukam. It is responsible for all thought and action. It is even responsible for the movements of celestial bodies.

This reality is a play being put on by the divine. He is the actor and we are the characters. He has written the script. The play is so convincing that we forget it's an illusion. The actor loses himself in the role. (Thanks Akasha ji!)

The translators have written "obey the Hukam". I think it should be "accept the Hukam". The Hukam is not in our control, so not accepting it causes us to suffer. We drive ourselves farther from Him. Accepting the Hukam brings peace. We come closer to Him. According to the role we are assigned in the play, we accept the Hukam or we don't.

***They translated "mann" to mean "obey". It can also mean "accept".***

Reincarnation is a synonym for suffering. The 5 thieves are the ones who make us suffer, because they rob us of our contentment. Being content is liberation from suffering (Mukti). Accepting the Hukam is a part of achieving contentment.

According to psychology, these are the 5 stages of grief that a dying person goes through. In a way, we are all on death row:

1) Denial
2) Anger
3) Bargaining
4) Depression
5) Acceptance

 

[japjisahib04]

If this is he case, why then are we instructed to follow Hukam, when we don't actually have a choice to follow it? Is it an instruction to accept the Hukam, rather than struggle against it? But if one was to struggle against it, wouldn't one be following Hukam anyway???

I also get mentally stuck trying to rationalise and justify the birth of a young girl (for example) in an impoverished country, who is cut up, and sold into prostitution before she's even 10, and her life is hell thenceforth. Is it Hukam that this should happen to her? Is it her karma? Is it the free will (if it exists) of others forcing her into this situation? This issue causes me great personal struggle, and perhaps it will diminish if I can better understand concepts like Hukam.

Many thanks in advance to any who choose to reply.

Ishna

My simple observation is, 'ਕਿਸ ਨੋ ਕਹੀਐ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ॥੨॥ Gurbani confers responsibility on to us humans for all mis-happenings and promotes self-analysis for realization of God’s presence within one's self. Our Guru (Bani) holds humans responsible for their actions and we are reminded to utilize our blessed faculties (divine intelligence) to comprehend the natural phenomena or Natural Laws (Hukam). Answer for deformities in child lies in medical science or selling a little angel for prostitution is parents crime/ignorance, thus is not hukam.

My understanding is since every individual is gifted with the divine message written in their antar atma(nanak likhiya naal) then why different people realize different message and in different perception. I kept on wondering if everyone is not capable of realizing the divine message or correct perception then why guru sahib tells us, 'hukam razaee chalna'. Which hukam gurbani is telling us? Divine message or manh ki matt. How to make distinction between correct message. Take for example 'Hukam razzai', in gurbani it has been interpreted to move on with conscience with 'Bhakiya bau aapar - infinite love of God in positive sense but in Islam surrender is based on negative sense -Fear of God rather than Love of God. God-fearing as a basis of religiousity is a Judeo-Christain construct later accepted by Islam. Does it mean Muslims and Christian are spiritually dead? Both says surrender - but the perception is different then how to make distinction in order to be truthful with ourselves as well as with our creator. Others very conveniently interpret hukam as His bhana due to their ignorance in not following the correct rules or failure to perform successfully. Is it wisdom or blind faith? Are we strengthening the wall of ignorance or crushing?

regards