Jyots in Gurdwaras?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by sukritkaur, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. sukritkaur

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    Gurfateh everyone,

    So I was at Malton Gurudwara yesterday and after the simran programme ended I noticed a diva type thing in the corner of the Gurdwara and I saw one individual even put his hands above the flame and then swipe it over his head. I was just wondering what does keeping a flame jyot type thing (sorry I don't know what it's called) has to do with Sikhi?
    If I am not mistaken, I thought this was a Hindu practice but I am not sure. Especially when my parents told me that all the gurdawara have them and they couldn't make the connection to SIkhi either. So if anyone has any semblance of an explanation, that would be appreciated.

    Thanks in advance,
    Sukrit Kaurjapposatnamwaheguru:
     

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    #1 sukritkaur, Feb 2, 2012
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  2. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh Apache Spark, Scala developer
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    I think the best thing I could connect was that lamps were used in pre-electricity time to read Guru Granth Sahib at night. The lamps somehow stayed on and people started doing the roll your hand over and touch your head or something. Some Gurudwaras use desi ghee to make it smell nice, but it is unnecessary. There is no connection to Sikhi and that is the sad state of our lives that we are doing things like mindless numb people without asking what is it for?

    Satgur Shabad Ujaro Deepa - YouTube
     
  3. OneD10s

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    Why do people touch the first step of the Gurdawara or the floor of the Gurdawara before entering and then touch their heads?
     
  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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    The DIVA has had vital significance in HINDUISM. Its Vital as "aartee" of devtas is performed daily in all mandirs....and divas are lighted at Hindu Festivals and the DIWALI festival is named after DIVA..Festival of LIGHTS..and divas are lighted at DEATH..to guide the soul in darkness..and a DIVA is lighted on the Banera (top story of house) or in the Window to GUIDE the Lover/husband/ homewards....

    GURU NANAK JI Sahib brought a Brand New GYAAN..a Brand New Philosophy..as Bhai Gurdass Ji explains.."SATGUR NANAK PARGITAYAH..mitee DHUNDH..JAGG Channan Hoyah !! This panktee is not so much referring to Guru Nanaks Jis "Physical birth" ( as most Sikhs and esp ragis have taken it to mean..) BUT to the GYAAN SOORAJ Sun of KNOWLEDGE of the BRAHM the CREATOR that Guru nanak ji gave us....The "Physical Nanak" has been long gone..BUT His GYAAN shines as brightly as ever..in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to GUIDE the World through LIFE.

    SIKHS as usual..wearing their "BHAGWA" orange coloured glasses...just couldnt let go of the TINY CLAY Divas and shudh ghee FAKE JYOT propaganda of the Wily BRAHMIN/PANDIT who doesn't do any physical work himself but loves to BURN the Hard earned WEALTH of the Jatt Farmers as in HAVANS..which require shudh GHEE, badams, kesjus, best attas, sugar gurr whatever...ALL PROVIDED by the Hardworking LABOUR of the working class !!..and BURNED by the Pandit.

    SIKHS thus continue to light such "TINY FAKE WORLDLY JYOTS" in the August presence of the BIGGEST SHINING SUN of KNOWLEDGE..the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..the Rabbi JYOT..ILAHI JYOT of the CREATOR. Sikhs blinded by their orange contact lenses continue to light small clay divas in silver platters and wave these in front of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji attempting to "Light" the SUN.....when Guru Nanak ji has already said in PLAIN LANGUAGE..Gagan mehn Thaal...RAV CHAND SOORAJ STARS..all SHINE for the CREATOR...in FULL GLORY..BY the Creator..FOR the Creator..OF the Creator !!!

    This shudh ghee jyot thingy has made a big come back in Gurdwaras thanks due to the influx of the DERAWADEE SANT BABAISM....and Gross negligence of the SGPC and Akal Takhat etc which have fallen under these fake Hinduised Keshadharee Hindus in Sikh garb who control Gurdwaras...where instead of GURBANI VICHAAR..more credence is given to how shudh the ghee is..how to keep the jyot from being blown out by the WIND !!!!..when we have the ILAHI JYOT of GURBANI that even a HURRICANE cannot blow OUT !!! we rush to handle STONES and discard DIAMONDS....( pearls before swine have no value).

    Are'nt we that stupid to believe that a CLAY DIVA that goes out in a wink can "guide" the SOUL in the after world ?? a Diva that goes out the moment the oil is depleted ?? the diva that extinguishes with a single wave of the ganges is supposed to GUIDE the SOUL ??? ONLY GURBANI..the Ilahi JYOT can do all that and MORE !!! GURBANI LIGHTS our darkened SOULS HERE and NOW !!!

    2. Shardhaloos touch the first step of the Gurdawra, drink the water used to wash the feet at the Gurdwara entrance..wipe the dust from Shoe soles..etc etc.in an attempt to be "humble"....before the GURU !! I say "attempt" because Genuine HUMILITY is INSIDE...of the MIND...the MANN...and THAT inside humility cannot be gained with dust or washing waters...it has to be actively CULTIVATED by FOLLOWING the Gurus teachings in Daily LIFE...adopt GURBANI daily..in our actions..Speak the TRUTH...be NIRVAIR..be NIRBHAU....DAILY in all dealings....

    The "SANGAT" is always INSIDE the Gurdwara..AFTER the GURBANI has been listened to..Vicharred...decided to FOLLOW it..BEFORE all these happen..the persons are just ordinary HUMANS..not Sangat at all....and in case you haven't noticed..NO ONE WASHES his/her feet AFTER Coming OUT of the GURDWARA....therefore NO SANGAT ever leaves any DUST around...the only dust available is of HUMANS who are coming to Gurdwara...mainly to eat Langar and GOSSIP..while away time..admire or UNADMIRE others etc etc...very very FEW may COME OUT as "Genuine SANGAT"....and those take away their dust with them...!!! No offense taken and or meant..my own views..hard hitting..maybe..???..............:)
     
    #4 Gyani Jarnail Singh, Feb 3, 2012
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  5. Inderjeet Kaur

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    Perhaps the guy's hands were cold and he was warming them and then also, he warmed up the top of his chilly head?

    I think if it was for any other reason, it was probably one of those mindless rituals that are useless and condemned by our beloved Gurus. Rather like throwing water in the direction of Punjab to water one's crops. (I wish that worked, though. These days Punjab really needs the water.)

    As for the other, it reminds me of a Christian man I once knew who used to hit himself over the head with a Bible as part of his prayer. When I suggested that maybe actually reading it might be more helpful. I was told (rightfully, btw), "You pray your way and I'll pray mine." It's hard to say what motivates such people. I once kissed the ground after a grueling airplane flight through an electrical storm. It might be a useless ritual or it might be that the individual is truly grateful to be able to enter the gurudwara. Unlike the lamp thing, which really does look like creeping Hinduism, this seems harmless to me.


    :mundaviolin::tablakudi:japposatnamwaheguru: :mundaviolin:
    They are playing my favorite shabad. kaurhug
     
    #5 Inderjeet Kaur, Feb 3, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
  6. harry haller

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    Only the truth stands the test of time, and only those that know it in their hearts, and have the need for only the connection with the Creator, will be the ones to ignore all the ritual Vedic practices that keep creeping in.

    However, I think it is wrong to judge, Creator invites all those with a genuine need for the truth to liberate themselves, the rest of us, in bed with thieves or ritual just have to keep applying and studying.
     
  7. Ambarsaria

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    Sukrit Kaur Bhain thanks for your post. Let me give you my understanding on a practical basis. In villages and smaller towns in Punjab there were generally Gurdwaras that one will go to. I remember on Massia raat (fully dark night with no moon and no electricity generally around), some light sources were even in a glimmer were useful to give one comfort to know bearings. It also identified place for the lost or strangers to approach. So in my younger days it had practical meaning like a street or house light that stays on at night. Usually these Jyot/Oil burning lights were set alight at dusk. These could also be taken around as working lights then in Gurdwara premises as well as to light other lights.

    In terms of putting hands over the light I don't know much. I do know that the light from Ghee/Clarified Butter usually has an element of soot which is increased if you wave or move your hand over the flame. Now the carbon that you will pick up in moving your hand and the warmth being useful, that I do not know. Perhaps one day some one will discover the odour reducing properties of Carbon :sippingcoffeemunda:.

    In terms of its use in modern Gurdwaras with A/C, air cleaners, emergency lighting, electricity etc., to me it appears of much less utility.

    I hope above is of some help.

    Sat Sri Akal
     
  8. Ambarsaria

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    OneD10s ji perhaps it helped either catch disease or build immunity if one did not get sick so doing. Could it be considered indirect way of building communal immunity as I know I took sips of water at Darbar Sahib srovar when we used to visit as a child and even took a sip or sprinkled some water from where people washed their feet.

    May be there is something to that, but I am not sure. Just some thoughts.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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    INDIA has a social aspect of what we call "JHOOTH"....no one other society ahs this inhibition....is it due to CASTE ??? The Arabs afghans pathans etc all eat from the same plate....the Chinese do the same...and the SIKHS are made to eat from the same plate and drink form the same batta during Amrit sanskaar ceremony...thus killing the "Jhooth" inhibition ??? From the on an Amrtidharee is not supposed to eat from a non-amritdharees palte..is that jhooth or is it religious inhibition..??? Is JHOOTH for helath reasons..immunity building or caste purity..??/ i wonder... and then we have all drinking water form sarovars and feet baths at Gurdwara entrances...people picking up dropped karrah parshaad off floors and eating that..etc etc..??/ Ambarsariah ji ahs covered the immunity/health section very well..a new perpesctive perhaps..???
     
  10. amarjit singh bamrah

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    Satnaam Waheguru Sat Naam Waheguru
    [​IMG]


    The real reason behind waving your hands over the Joyt is to honour the Fire Deva/God.
    To thank the Fire for allowing us to have light heat and able to cook food for our subsistence.

    The real reason for touching the footsteps or ground at the Gurudwara is to honour Mother Earth for letting us walk on her.

    Mother Earth is a Living organism and has feelings too!

    However in this Western society which has also permeated into the Indians the reasons behind these have been forgotten.

    Much has been discarded to bring in new thinking devoid of real Humbleness and spirituality.

    For in Western society its hard to understnd God exists in every particle every atom of creation.


    kaurhugAmarjitkaurhug
     
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  11. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel We seek him here,we sikh
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    Concentrate on the subject of simran after the programme has ended and you won't notice anything in the corner.
     
  12. sukritkaur

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    Gurfateh Pyari SPN sangat!

    Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion. Although I don't agree with some of the rationale behind the jyots (i..e. fire gods) I do realize that after the simran programme my dhian should've been on the subject matter of the Gurbaani sung, either trying to decipher the meaning or internalizing the message and ultimately since I failed to do that I don't think I got to experience the full effect of the Baani. Which I only have my absence of concentration and myself to blame for. Just an update, I was speaking to one of my friends who knows the head granthi at the Gurudwara and she told me that he doesn't always have control over things that go on in the gurudwara if enough of the people involved in making decisions want something to be done, then the decision of the majority is upheld.

    Scarlet Pimpernel Ji thanks for enlightening me on the blunder that I made, I will work towards not repeating it in the future. However, my only concern with the jyot is that it sends the wrong message to people of other faiths or our own young children/youth that will now associate that to Sikhi, when there is no tangible reason for its existence in modern times. Also it is another one of many attempts (intentional or unintentional) to dilute Sikhism with Hindu practices.
    I feel odd because all the people I ask about this (my amrithdharee friends or adult intellectuals) neither of them can explain it to me and they have been regularly attending this gurudwara for quite a while now. I just feel as a Sikh, I should question the blind faith or understanding I put in things I don't really understand. And that it is my moral obligation to question the validity of my faith to avoid believing in/practicing unnecessary practices.

    Please feel free to educate me if I have misspoken
    Thanks again everyone for contributing to the thread
    Sukrit Kaur
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    The people who place the jyots KNOW that they can be blown out with a single gust of wind..so they make sure the jyots are sheltered inside glass containers..LOL....unlike the Gyaan jyot flowing out of SGGS...and anyway the Majority is always SILENT....( I blew out a jyot at a major function and no one batted an eye even.for a whole hour.....but all hell broke loose when the "Head Honcho Brahmgyani Baba" realised the holy jyot was out....his chelas rushed about like headless chickens..looking for a match ( i had earleir surreptioulsy removed the match box as well..ha ha)...so i know the MAJORITY did know the jyot was OUT but none cared...so thats the real truth.
     
  14. Kanwaljit Singh

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    Super cool Giani ji :) that is just another practical example like the Guru Nanak's in Haridwar
     
  15. Ambarsaria

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    Veer Bamrah ji you kill your own argument and logic. If the creator/God is in every particle and many particles together take infinite shapes I assume you believe in "Infinite Devas" just like the so called "Fire Deva" you mention. This is garbage of religion that Sikhism came out of and unshackled itself. Stop making backward progress.

    In Sikhism all together it is called one creation of one creator.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  16. BhagatSingh

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    Amarjit Singh ji,
    Since our society is increasingly on the run to distance itself from nature, these practices are bound to disappear. Among western Sikhs they will simply be labelled as Hindu and discarded. But the real reason is not that which culture they belong to. The real reason is that we are born in a technologically advanced countries, in general we are not as in touch with nature as we should be. Hence "Fire God" makes no sense. Those who dismiss the "Fire God" don't know what Fire God is in the first place. Fire God is fire itself, the heat, the flame, the scent, the light... (BTW "to describe" is not "to know) from which arose the modern lifestyle that we take for granted. Fire is the father of all that exists today. Modern food, gold and jewelry, armour and weapons, cars, tools, etc. Fire is the essence jyot of modern civilization. To pay respect to the fire then is important. Or are we too arrogant to do so?
    In the name of practicality and utilitarianism, we forget that which is everywhere. We forget nature.

    Ancient societies however, who were not wrapped up in modern technology did pay their respect to the fire. Hawans (Indian), fire pit dances (Native Indian ;)), and other rituals around the fire, stories and mythologies about fire... this is the way to honour fire. And in honouring fire we honour God. It's not about fire but about using these small remnants of our ancient culture to get back in touch with nature, with God.
     
    #16 BhagatSingh, Feb 6, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  17. harry haller

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    Gentlemen this is all very cute, cuddly and touchy feely, yes, we should go back to our Indian roots and nature and worship every part of creation from rivers to fires, the sun, the moon etc etc

    However, I do recall a certain man born around 500 years ago who decided that these had become shackles and restrictive in the true pursuit,namely knowledge, wisdom, enlightenment, the ability to have mukti on a daily basis

    Hell, why dont we add some stuff from the North American Indians, they seem to know a bit, or the Intuits?

    We have a way already, it has been prescribed by 10 Gurus, and is always there in the 11th.

    If you knew a way of calculus that was bombproof, why bother reverting back to the old way?
    So Jios forward or backward?
     
  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    The Notion that the Creator "exists" in each ATOM is BRAHMINIC/VEDIC...not GURBANI.
    Can we have a Gurbani quote on that....Zarreh Zarreh vich parmatma etc is Hinduism..not Gurmatt...and the Parmatama is also a Hindu concept..Gurmatt concept is Atma...
     
  19. japjisahib04

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    The real reason behind waving your hands over the Joyt is to honour the Fire Deva/God.
    To thank the Fire for allowing us to have light heat and able to cook food for our subsistence.

    The real reason for touching the footsteps or ground at the Gurudwara is to honour Mother Earth for letting us walk on her
    -----------------
    Hymns of Bhagat Kabir regretfully state “God has painted the greatest picture of the world with various colors but these wondrous creations (Forms) have now become the cause of concern, as mankind is emotionally involved with them and have diverted to worship picture of His creations instead of Him.” - Guru Granth ang.340.15.
    Best regards
     
  20. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Harry Ji....
    you make a valid point..BUT then that Man born so long ago..in 1469..seems so far away...and the WRITTEN instructions He left behind as His Legacy..are always kept wrapped in rumallahs....its "boring" to ahve to read those and harder to "follow" them..so why bother..

    Its much more fun to have a wood pile..fire it up..dance in the open field under dark clouds, and have a good time...( in the dark shadows..who knows what happens !!)..Tying ribbons on girls wrists is much more fun than fighting the invader and maybe losing your life...lighting oil lamps and watching fireworks is so much more fun..thats why the modern sikh is heavily into lohri, diwali, rakhri, artees and waving hands over jyots..and VERY LITTLE into really STUDYING GURBANI and follwoing ITS instructions...we are the...
    I will wait for the Film and Fast forward it" rather than the READ THE BOOK from end to end type....it was to cater to this lazy crowd that Films were made based on books....we adapted the laziness to SGGS aslo...now many think that having watched Bahi taru Singh animated film of 40 minutes is MORE RELIGIOUS than actually KEEPING KESH !!( for whcih Bahi taru singh gave his life ..BUT then again THAT was BTS..and I AM GJS !! vast difference in time and space..LOL.
     
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