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Christianity Jesus for Jews ???

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Neutral Singh, Sep 8, 2004.

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  1. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Hi,

    I just wanted to ask a few questions some to christians...

    1. Why out of all the billions of people who ever walked the earth, God only choose like what 20-25? jews as his representiteves?? Why leave the rest of the world in dark ness, why all ancient people pagan? :confused:

    2. God in the bible seems to be strictly for the jews, and jesus said hes only sent to the jews, what about the rest , the majoirtiy of humans, god dont care bout us?

    3. If we take the genisis days of creation as "periods of time", are there any other scientific errors in the bible?

    Thanks in advance
     
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  3. Rajs

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    Neutral Singh,



    “1. Why out of all the billions of people who ever walked the earth, God only choose like what 20-25? jews as his representiteves?? Why leave the rest of the world in dark ness, why all ancient people pagan?“



    Do you have an answer as to?

    Why did God make you a man or a woman?

    Why are the leaves and grass green?

    Why do birds have wings and, fish have neither legs nor wings?

    Why are horses bigger than dogs?

    Why do we have two eyes, two ears, two hands and two legs?

    Why do women give birth not men?

    Etc. etc.



    Simple, because God, the Lord Almighty, decided so!



    “2. God in the bible seems to be strictly for the jews, and jesus said hes only sent to the jews, what about the rest , the majoirtiy of humans, god dont care bout us?“

    This is your personal understanding and your theology based on ignorance.God, in the Bible, is not for the Jews only.

    God promised Abraham, “All people on earth will be blessed through you.” (Genesis 12:3)


    ”I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed.” (Genesis 26:4)

    The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it” (Psalm 24:1)


    Jesus may have been “sent” to the Jews but he came to save all the people of the world.

    Everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:15-16)



    “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (John 3:17)



    I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.” (John 12:46)



    I have spoken openly to the world(John 18:20)



    “Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations” (Matthew 24:14)



    God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.” (2 Corinthian 5:19)




    ”3. If we take the genisis days of creation as "periods of time", are there any other scientific errors in the bible?”



    “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.” (Jeremiah 10:12)



    Would you be kind enough to tell me about creation according to Guru Granth Sahib which has been "approved" by science? Please enlighten me with your Guru Granth Sahib’s theory on the “periods of time.”



    Rajs
     
  4. S|kH

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    I dont understand your last paragraph.

    You speak as if "Creation" has been 'approved' by the Bible?

    Personally,
    I don't understand how someone can just believe that.
    Even Guru Nanak did not believe he was a prophet or God-sent.

    I dont believe in relevation, and a book telling me someone else recieved a relevation doesn't make me believe in relevations.
     
  5. Rajs

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    Dear Sikh,

    If "Guru Nanak did not believe he was a prophet or God-sent" then how can you accept him as "guru" who can lead you to God?

    How can someone believe that Gurus "realized" God when they never said so themselves?

    How can some someone, believe someone, that someone saw "someone", stay under water for three days, when that "someone" never said so himself?
    It's get tricky, doesn't it?

    By the way, if Guru Nanak is neither "prophet or God-sent", then why do you regard him to be the founder of your "universal" religion?

    Regards
    Rajs
     
  6. S|kH

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    Guru simply means teacher. Your misunderstanding the term used in Sikh-context. How can you accept a teacher of mathematics to teach you math? Based up on his skill and measured degree.

    Guru Nanak is different from Jesus as he was not simply "born religious/teacher/guru/prophet"...he had acquired his ability for other people to refer to him as a teacher by his actions, by his skill, and his method.

    This differs from Jesus, because Jesus was born the Lord.

    I can accept Guru Nanak based upon his actions and doctrines, and I assume if I follow similar actions and create a philosophy of that foundation, I will become or enter "Nirvana". See, this has NOTHING to do with simply believing that God gave relevation to someone else...because the difference is, you can BECOME IT, you CAN TRY IT. You simply do not just read that, "God chose to give relevation to someone else, and not you" This is further stated in Sikhism when Guru Gobind created the Khalsa and regarded them as HIS teachers, and became baptized from THEM.

    He never stated he was the founder of Sikhism...he even said Sikhi has been before him, he was just the one that brought light to Sikhism again, and specifically to that region in the world. We regard him as the 'founder' of Sikhism, because we want to give tribute to him for changing massive lives, due to his philosophy that he re-stated.
    I believe Bhagat Kabir was alive before Guru Nanak, and Bhagat Kabir is in the SGGS...Guru Nanak is just the one that brought that type of philosophy and lifestyle to extreme light, where everyone could see.

    Please understand I am not trying to prove Christianity wrong, for I agree...it is an excellent path to take, and I admire all proper Christians.

    I really dont believe those stories, regardless of there religious background.
    I wonder how people believe those stories ;)

    -S|kH
     
  7. Rajs

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    Dear Sikh,



    You say:



    “Guru Nanak is different from Jesus as he was not simply "born religious/teacher/guru/prophet"...he had acquired his ability for other people to refer to him as a teacher by his actions, by his skill, and his method.”



    “you can BECOME IT, you CAN TRY IT. You simply do not just read that, "God chose to give relevation to someone else, and not you" This is further stated in Sikhism when Guru Gobind created the Khalsa and regarded them as HIS teachers, and became baptized from THEM.”



    “he was just the one that brought light to Sikhism again, and specifically to that region in the world. We regard him as the 'founder' of Sikhism, because we want to give tribute to him for changing massive lives, due to his philosophy that he re-stated.”



    Well, buddy, no pun intended, but all I can say is that you need serious help on your theological understanding of Sikhism. Anyway, would you kindly expound on the following:


    • How did Guru Nanak acquire his ability for other people to refer him as the teacher, i.e., which actions, what skills, and what method?
    • “You can BECOME IT, you CAN TRY IT”, what exactly can you become and try what?
    • Guru Gobind Singh created the Khalsa for what purpose?




    Rajs
     
  8. S|kH

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    Keep the font normal...hurts the eyes.

    Anyways, I'm always learning, so thanks for stating the obvious (that i should learn more).

    But, let me explain what I had stated earlier :
    1) How did Guru Nanak aquire his ability for others to refer to him as a teacher? - You see, he was not born prophecized, he was not born and people did not go to see him, and bow to him. He was born...an ordinary human. He aquired being labelled a teacher, when he turned 13, and started refuting his parents rituals and the rituals that he was forced to do. He started going against the normal society, and people saw this, they ridiculed him, and others praised him. Eventually this reached a regional influence where then he became known as a teacher. Its not that hard of a concept to understand. Jesus on the other hand, you have references to "baby Jesus" "prophecized birth" "the Lord"

    2) I meant "you can become it" as in, you can become as spiritual as the Guru, or exceed it. You do not believe that "God ONLY gave relevation to the Gurus, and the only way out is if you believe in the Guru"..."You can become it" means...exactly that, you can try out the foundation, and if it works for you, then you've becomed it. There is nothing to believe that OTHERS HAVE RECIEVED A RELEVATION and you haven't simply because GOD CHOSE THEM AND NOT YOU. You can try it out, as in you can read their philosophy, and try out whether it works for you or not. You do not have to believe that this is the only path, and that this is the true path because God had given relevation to the "founders" of this philosophy.

    3) This is answer requires alot of detail. Stay away for now.

    --------
    Now lets see the things you have underlined in my previous post,
    You quoted :
    "“Guru Nanak is different from Jesus as he was not simply "born religious/teacher/guru/prophet"...he had acquired his ability for other people to refer to him as a teacher by his actions, by his skill, and his method.”"

    As I explained above, he was not born a teacher...through his actions, people realized a better/proper way to live their life, a way of life that they thought was better than the original...regarding this method, the followers began to refer to him as a teacher...this was through his actions, and his method of stating his philosophy.

    Everything else you under-lined seems pretty self-explanatory.

    I suggest you also seek help on your theological understanding of Sikhism. ;)

    -S|kH
     
  9. MINHAZ ALI

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    God sent prophets with religion. So self made prophets can not be followed. T least some one should call himself prophet before following them.
     
  10. harsimiritkaur

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    My answer to the first posting on this thread is in blue:

    1. Why out of all the billions of people who ever walked the earth, God only choose like what 20-25? jews as his representiteves?? Why leave the rest of the world in dark ness, why all ancient people pagan? [​IMG]

    The Jews where chosen for a certain task, to observe the 613 Laws of Torah. Midrashim explain that the other nations were offered this responsibility first, but each nation one at a time refused, enjoying their selfish freedom. Now, this is not a historical account. It only explains how rare to find a pure nation, and the Bible explains how the Jews are also similar to the other nations of the world, they also make mistakes and become sucker to the five vices. The Bible also says that God chose them because they were the least of the peoples. The use of God's name in Gurbani stems from ancient Hebrew: "Hain, Tun hain, Tun Hovenhaar" (Existing, You are, You cause things to exist Tilang ang 723
    and also "Ho yo he hovanto" Gatha M 5 ang 1361 compare with He Bhi Sach, Hosi Bhe sach of Japuji Sahib.

    2. God in the bible seems to be strictly for the jews, and jesus said hes only sent to the jews, what about the rest , the majoirtiy of humans, god dont care bout us?
    Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network - Think Discuss Share Learn Evolve http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/christianity/681-jesus-for-jews.html
    Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network - Think Discuss Share Learn Evolve http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=681

    The bible is for everyone to read and benefit. Guru Granth SAhib is not just for the Punjabi pindu people, but for all people, too.

    Moses and Jesus were sent for the Jews because the Jews were in a special situation, in need of a charismatic leader to promote sachiyara hoiyeh righteous living. There are accounts of Jesus and his followers helping non-Jews, as well. I do not think the Jews as a whole would have accepted a non Jew to promote this to their own people. Think about it, do you think the Catholic pope would have any affect visiting the Taliban in Pakistan? The cultures clash too much.

    3. If we take the genisis days of creation as "periods of time", are there any other scientific errors in the bible?
    The creation motif in Genesis was not intended as a chronological event. It's purpose was to introduce the concept of order. The style of how to Bible was written was not meant as a documentar, but as an interpretation of events which occured.

    Prophets were sent not to do miracles, but to inspire the people to change their destructive ways. Predictions are mentions that point to what will happen to people if they donot respond to the grace of God, to live sincerely, etc. Prophet does not mean one who tells the future. The word "Navi" means one who delivers the wisdom of God to cause a change in attitude and action, to promote justice.

    There are some contradictions in the Bible that disagree with other parts of the Bible. Some names are different in a geneology, etc. Zachariya Ben Berchia, or is it Zachariya Ben Yehoyada, the High Priest slain in the Temple? This supports the accuracy that the writer made a slightmental error confusion the name of the Priest's father, or perhaps there were two incidents, where only one was recorded in the Old Testament.

    It is clear that the message in the Bible, (I realized after study of Guru Granth Sahib) that the ritual of the death of Jesus was not meant to bribe God. His death is not what saves us, but the meaning. If one believes only the Bible, then they would realize this that cruxifictions and human sacrifices do not save you. Only the grace of God. That is why Mool Mantra ends with "Gur Prasaad". All of creation and the tolerance of God happens because of Guru God's grace, patiently waiting for us to accept His divine invitation to taste His Amrit. "amrit shabad amrit Har bani"

    Bible and Guru Granth Sahib were not introduced in the world as they truly are to save anyone. Their purpose is to promote education how to attain salvation.

    Salvation is a gift, faith, not of works. Bible
    Suniyain, dookh paap ka naas By hearing and processing Guru's wisdom, sinful habits and pains stops.
     
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  11. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Harsimiritkaur ji much loved reading your well thought out post.

    The following so not well understood by so many or even followed,

    Thank you.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  12. harsimiritkaur

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    Guru Granth Sahib's wisdom does not save anyone unless they study, understand, and apply Guru Ji's teachings in one's life. There is no forced salvation and there is no bribing ritual that saves.

    A text does not save. Wisdom does not save. Wisdom with action saves. First the initiative has always been on God's part, yet it is up to us to accept our destiny of blessings by applying Gurmat in our lives. Bin Gur gian kehe nan paya. Without Guru's wisdom, you cannot gain anything.

    The same holds true for the Bible in Christianity and Judaism.

    God saves those who help themselves to His awesome essence. Jay ko khave jay ko bhunche. They that partake shall benefit. (Mundaveni)
     
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  13. amarjit singh bamrah

    amarjit singh bamrah
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    The original Holy Bible was altered substainaly to remove references to re incarnation.
    Also passage were added into the holy Bible to include Animal scarafices.

    It also says the world was created around 3,400 years before Christ's birth

    Then much was altered to give more power to the Church, The king and the Priests of that period :
    Of Animal Slaughter and Meat consumption. Read below for more details

    Amarjit
    Approx. 3,400 years before Christ was born. It was exactly 2,108 years before Jacob and Esau were born. It was exactly 1,948 years before Abraham was born, and exactly 1,656 years before the flood. read Genesis 5 to find out more on exact numbers of generations. I hope that this was helpful


    according to the bible it just say in the beginning which means god has been living for ever there never was a beginning for him so he created the earth in the begging no exact year

    -- IF there is a GOD then it was created in 4004BC. But that does not make sense as carbon dating puts many artifacts found much older than 6000 years. The Earth itself according to scientific community is the billions of years old. What a difference.

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    <!--webbot bot="Navigation" S-Orientation="vertical" S-Rendering="html" S-Bar="Underlined" S-Btn-Nml="#LABEL#" S-Btn-Sel="#LABEL#" S-Btn-Sep="
    " S-Type="global" B-Include-Home="TRUE" B-Include-Up="FALSE" startspan --><NOBR>Home</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Ritual Human Sacrifice</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Rape in the Bible</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Murder in the Bible</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Slavery in the Bible</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Evil Bible Quotes</NOBR>
    <NOBR>****** of the Month</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Jesus Lied</NOBR>
    <NOBR>God is Impossible</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Top Ten List</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Biblical Contradictions</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Synthetic Life</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Definition of Atheism</NOBR>
    <NOBR>About EvilBible.com</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Discussion Forum</NOBR><!--webbot bot="Navigation" i-checksum="59078" endspan -->​


    <HR>
    Essays From The Church of Theists Suck:


    <!--webbot bot="Navigation" S-Orientation="vertical" S-Rendering="html" S-Type="top" B-Include-Home="FALSE" B-Include-Up="FALSE" S-Btn-Nml="#LABEL#" S-Btn-Sel="#LABEL#" S-Btn-Sep="
    " S-Bar="Underlined" startspan --><NOBR>Evils of the Torah</NOBR>
    <NOBR>End Times</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Do Not Ignore O.T.</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Biblical Intolerance</NOBR>
    <NOBR>A Day Is A Day</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Absurd Torah Science</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Christians Are Hypocrites</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Common Lies Christians Tell</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Jesus is a False Messiah</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Hitler was a Christian</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Contradictions of the Gospel</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Sexism in the Torah</NOBR>
    <NOBR>God's Not Pro-Life</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Ten Commandments</NOBR>
    <NOBR>Why I am Not a Christian</NOBR>
    <NOBR>What Would Jesus Do?</NOBR>​

    <NOBR>Is the Bible Fit for Worship</NOBR><!--webbot bot="Navigation" i-checksum="55961" endspan --> <HR>
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    Ritual Human Sacrifice in the Bible



    (Why does God want me to burn animals and humans?)


    The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are "pleasing to the Lord". ​

    Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. "Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you."(Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.​

    Even though he didn't kill his son, it is still an incredibly cruel and evil thing to do. If Abraham did that today he would be in jail serving a long sentence as someone's prison-*****. It amazes me how Christians see this story as a sign of God's love. There is no love here, just pure unadulterated evil.​

    The first seven chapters of Leviticus have extensive rules regarding animal and food sacrifices. These offerings are supposed to be burnt so that God can smell them. If you read through these it seems clear to me that the priests were getting their followers to make a big feast for them every week. The priests were very particular about what kind of food to bring and how to prepare it.​

    Even more peculiar is God's obsession with first-born sons. In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." Later it says that you can redeem (replace) an *** with a sheep and that you must redeem a child for an unspecified price. It is clear from the context that "consecrate" means a burning sacrifice. These priests are guilty of theft and kidnapping. Since any sins in the Old Testament were punishable by death, these priests used the threat of death to extort food and money from their followers. What do we call a scum-bag that threatens to kill your kids unless you pay a ransom? A kidnapper! If these priests were alive today they would be in prison with Abraham.​

    However, in Leviticus 27:28-29, the Lord allows for no redemptions. "Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death." I must admit that I am a bit confused by this contradiction, but it might only apply to slaves in your possession. Not that it makes any difference. A human sacrifice is a human sacrifice, and it is just sick.​


    Bible Passages About Ritual Human Sacrifice



    Jephthah Burns His Daughter

    "At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

    "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)​


    God Commands Burning Humans

    [The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)​


    Josiah and Human Sacrifice

    At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)

    He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since.(2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)

    Human Sacrifice

    Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)


    Child Sacrifice

    And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.


    Humans are Fuel for Fire

    As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)


    Burn Nonbelievers

    "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)​


    So the next time some Christian tells you about the "love of God", show them this page and ask them "Why does God want me to burn animals and humans?"​

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    Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_year_did_God_created_the_world_according_to_the_Bible#ixzz1lRgQ0AmM
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #12 amarjit singh bamrah, Feb 5, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2012

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