Japji Sahib - Pauri 4 - Guru Granth Sahib

Discussion in 'Jap Ji Sahib' started by Amarpal, Jul 27, 2004.

  1. Amarpal

    Amarpal Writer Content Master SPNer

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    Dear Members,



    In this posting, I share with you all, my understanding of 4th Pauri of Japji Sahib.



    As was the case with 3rd Pauri, Guru Sahib continues to dwell on the immenseness of ‘Sat Kartar’. Guru Sahib compares ‘The Absolute’ who is unlimited with we humans who have all the limitations, to convey the difference. Guru Sahib uses examples that are in the common knowledge of we humans to illustrate what he wants to convey to us.



    In the end of the Pauri, Guru Sahib makes a very significant statement that what we get in this life is the result of our Karmas. This teaching when understood along with the learning of the previous Pauris tells us a lot. In the previous Pauri, Guru Sahib had said: all that we get is as a result of ‘Hukam’ of ‘Karta Purakh’, here Guru Sahib says that it is because of Karma. It means that our Karmas and the ‘Hukam’ of ‘The Absolute’ are in the chain which impacts on us to give or deny or modify something in our lives. We also know that Karam is from our end; Hukam is from the end of ‘The Absolute’. We all know that ‘Hukam’ is not random and it is individual specific. ‘The Absolute’ who is Just must be having some basis for designing his ‘Hukam’ (please excuse me for using technical language). Here Guru Sahib has provided the link; the Karmas of the individual are the input for the cosmic process that design individual specific ‘Hukam’ the impact of which is felt by the concerned individual.



    For me it is a great discovery in spiritual domain. I thank Guru Sahib for giving us Siri Guru Granth Sahib.



    With this said I come to details of the Pauri.



    swcw swihbu swcu nwie BwiKAw Bwau Apwru ] saachaa saahib saach naa-ay bhaakhi-aa bhaa-o apaar.



    Guru Sahib says that ‘The Absolute’ is true, and that is its name and has unlimited positive feeling.



    AwKih mMgih dyih dyih dwiq kry dwqwru ] aakhahi mangahi dayhi dayhi daat karay daataar.

    Guru Sahib tells us ‘The Sat’ is unlimited. What ever we ask ‘Sat’ is able to give with love. This is to drill into our mind the immenseness of ‘Karta Purakh’.

    Pyir ik AgY rKIAY ijqu idsY drbwru ] fayr ke agai rakhee-ai jit disai darbaar.

    Guru Sahib once again goes on to illustrate the insignificant position of we human with respect to ‘The Absolute’. Guru Sahib says: what can we keep in front so that we can enter its world. Again, here Guru sahib has use the practice of taking presents to significant individual when some one wanted to see him/her; this is done to be effective in communicating what he wanted to convey.



    muhO ik bolxu bolIAY ijqu suix Dry ipAwru ] muhou ke bolan bolee-ai jit sun Dharay pi-aar.



    In this sentence also Guru Sahib uses the method we human use to interface with the other individuals. Guru Sahib ponders on the words one can utter, which can evoke his love. All this Guru Sahib is telling us to make us realise that we are limited.



    AMimRq vylw scu nwau vifAweI vIcwru ] amrit vaylaa sach naa-o vadi-aa-ee veechaar.



    Having raised so many questions Guru Sahib now enters in answering mode. Guru Sahib tells us that during ‘Amrit Vayla’ the individual should think about the greatness of ‘The Absolute’.



    Here I want to add what I infer from the term ‘Amrit Vayla’. To me ‘Amrit Vayla’ is not what my elders had been telling me. They tell me it is a time before dawn, some say 5 am, some 4 am and even some suggest 3 am; the older my elder is to whom I ask more the ‘Amrit Vayla’ moves towards midnight. If one asks them why it is so, they have no basis. Today in this knowledge age one must have a basis for every thing.



    As I ponder over this issue, I get a feeling that this meaning (as told to me by my elders) probably has come from the practices of the religions to which my ancestors belonged before the arrival of Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee. In that religion many of the practices where designed to make life difficult in order to curb senses.



    If ‘The Absolute’ wanted we human to remain awake during night – during the so-called ‘Amrit Vayla’ - it was within his power to make us nocturnal being; ‘Karta Purakh’ has not done that. In addition Guru Sahib has asked us to be spiritual within the life of a house holder, he has not asked away to run away from normal life, which includes sleeping during night, then why will the ‘Amrit Vayla’ be some where at the middle of the night. Further more why ‘The Absolute’ will make some Vayla poison and some Vayla Amrit?



    This leads me to the conclusion that the limitation that makes the Vayla poison or Amrit must be coming form we human. This shift in paradigm gives me a more rational answer.

    Amrit Vayla is the time span when my mind is pure; that is the right time for ‘Simran’, no matter what time of the day or night it is. I conclude that there is no fixed time for it.



    For any individual, when she/he gets up from sleep, there is a small time span before the mind starts dwelling on worldly affair. During this time span the mind of the individual is pure, that is why it is Amrit (Amrit was available always in small quantities only). One can train oneself to think of ‘Karta Purakh’ during this time. Probably by training one can create this state of mind any time one wants and for relatively longer duration. This is what ‘Amrit Vayla’ means for me.



    Now I come back to next sentence of this Pauri.



    krmI AwvY kpVw ndrI moKu duAwru ] karmee aavai kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.



    This a very significant sentence. Guru Sahib is saying that this form (human body), which we have got, is the result of our Karmas. Earlier Guru Sahib has told us that it is the ‘Hukam’ that impacts on our lives. It means that our Karmas and the ‘Hukam’ of ‘The Absolute’ are both contribute to what impacts on us to give or deny or modify something in our lives. We also know that Karam is from our end; Hukam is from the end of ‘The Absolute’. We all know that ‘Hukam’ is not random and it is individual specific. ‘The Absolute’, who is ‘Just’, must be having some basis for designing his ‘Hukam’ (please excuse me for using technical language). Here Guru Sahib has provided the link; the Karmas of the individual are the input for the cosmic process that design individual specific ‘Hukam’ the impact of which is felt by the concerned individual. This understanding gives me the answers to the question that remained unanswered till this time. Now I move to the next sentence.



    nwnk eyvY jwxIAY sBu Awpy sicAwru ]4] naanak ayvai jaanee-ai sabh aapay sachiaar. ||4||



    In this sentence there is another revelation.



    Guru Sahib is telling us that ‘Karta Purakh’ is fully self sufficient; he does not need any thing from us. I hold the view that ‘Karta Purakh’ being Nirakaar has no needs or desires. He is not seeking us; we are seeking him. Guru Sahib tells us to keep this in mind.



    This is my understanding of this Pauri.



    With Love and Respect for all.



    Amarpal
     
  2. Nirmaljot Baidwan

    Nirmaljot Baidwan SPNer

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    [FONT=&quot]@Amarpal- There are many things that i'd like to discuss so lets start. I'll start from the beginning.
    [/FONT]ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ[FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    Guru Nanak sahib brought Teeji pauri to a hault saying "[/FONT]ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ[FONT=&quot]". [/FONT][FONT=&quot]He continues to praise the almighty in Fourth Pauri. Now what i can understand from the fourth Pauri is this-
    As u said that Guru Nanak saheb says that "The Absolute’ is true, and that is its name and has unlimited positive feeling". i agree till the part that its name is also true but i dont agree with the part where u wrote "and has unlimited positive feeling".
    "[/FONT]ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰ[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]ਭਾਖਿਆ [FONT=&quot]means "[/FONT]ਭਾਸ਼ਾ[FONT=&quot]" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]or "[/FONT]ਬੋਲਣਾ[FONT=&quot], [/FONT]ਉਚਾਰਨਾ[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT]ਭਾਉ [FONT=&quot]means "[/FONT]ਪਿਆਰ[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    now it can mean two things
    1. That the true lord, means "[/FONT]ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਨੇ [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]ਸੱਚਾ ਨਾਮ ਬੜੇ ਪਿਆਰ ਨਾਲ ਉਚਾਰਿਆ[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    now which true name or naam is guru sahib talking about???
    [/FONT]ਆਸਾ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਫਰਮਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    "[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]ਆਪੀਨੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿਓ ਆਪੀਨੈ ਰਚਿਓ ਨਾਉ[FONT=&quot]ll [/FONT]ਦੁਯੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜੀਐ ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ[FONT=&quot]" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]so eh oh naam hai jo shrishti di rachna to pehlan he os maalik ne bnaya ya rachya. one more point i want to bring forward i.e [/FONT]ਨਾਮੁ [FONT=&quot], [/FONT]ਸ਼ਬਦ [FONT=&quot], [/FONT]ਹੁਕਮ ਅਤੇ ਬਾਣੀ ਓਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਲੈ ਵਰਤੇ ਗਏ ਹਨ[FONT=&quot]ll The following quotes are from SGGS
    [/FONT]ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ[FONT=&quot] ([/FONT]ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]ਪੰ [FONT=&quot].[/FONT]੭੨੫[FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਾ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ [FONT=&quot] ([/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]([/FONT]ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT]ਪੰ ੨੨੯ [FONT=&quot])[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    ਸਭੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਸਮਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ [FONT=&quot] ([/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]([/FONT]ਨਾਮਦੇਵ[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]ਗ੍[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT]ਪੰ ੧੩੫੧[FONT=&quot])[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    ਏਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਏਕੋ ਪ੍ਭੁ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭ ਏਕਸ ਤੇ ਉਤਪਤੀ ਚਲੈ [FONT=&quot] ([/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]([/FONT]ਗੁਰੂ ਅਮਰਦਾਸ[FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]ਗ੍[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT]ਪੰ ੧੩੩੪[FONT=&quot])[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ [FONT=&quot] ([/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]([/FONT]ਗੁਰੂ ਅਮਰਦਾਸ[FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]ਗ੍[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT]ਪੰ ੫੧੫ [FONT=&quot])[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    so "[/FONT]ਨਾਮੁ [FONT=&quot], [/FONT]ਸ਼ਬਦ [FONT=&quot], [/FONT]ਹੁਕਮ ਅਤੇ ਬਾਣੀ[FONT=&quot]" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]oh sachi taakat hai jo es duniya nu te sanu chlaa rahi hai. Ki ohnu akhran de vich bann ke rakh sakde han??? ki eh naam asin uchar sakde han??
    the answer is no. Then where is the answer??? The answer is on page 1083 of SGGS

    [/FONT]ਸਗਲ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਤਿਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦ ਮਨ ਵਾਜੰਗਾ[FONT=&quot]ll
    [/FONT]
    ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਂ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ll [/FONT]ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ[FONT=&quot]ll [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    ethe saaf saaf guru sahebaan ne farmaya hai k jo naam teri jihba laindi hai oh kirtam naam hai yani k created by man. So what i can think is that jis naam naal os parmatma ne shrishti di rachna kiti hai oh likhan padhan bolan vich nahi aa sakda.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]2. the 2nd thing which it can mean is that parmatma nu pyaar di bhasha he bolda hai te pyaar di bhasha he samjhda hai.

    Now as it is getting lengthier i'll move further....agee chouthi pauri vich guru saheban farmounde ne-

    [/FONT]ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ[FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    I'll quote Amarpal "Guru Sahib tells us ‘The Sat’ is unlimited. What ever we ask ‘Sat’ is able to give with love. This is to drill into our mind the immenseness of ‘Karta Purakh’"[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I some what agree with your view here. But there is need to go in more depth.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Guru sahib says that we keep asking for many things from the almighty and he fulfills them. But did we come for asking things from god which will land us no where. The ques is what did we come for ??? Why have we got the human body??? The simple answer to this is so that we can become one with the almighty. But what is our condition??? In raag Dhanasri Guru Arjun dev ji says[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] “[/FONT]ਦਾਤਿ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਵਿਸਰਿਆ ਦਾਤਾਰਾ [FONT=&quot]ll” [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]We keep asking materialistic things from the god and that’s what keeps us in the cycle of death and birth. Guru Arjun Dev ji says[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]”[/FONT]ਵਿਣੁ ਤੁਧੁ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਿ ਮੰਗਣਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੁਖਾ ਕੈ ਦੁਖ[FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT] ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਉਤਰੈ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਭੁਖ[FONT=&quot]ll”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“[/FONT]ਨਾਮੁ[FONT=&quot]”[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]comes here again. So this is the naam which created everything . Now other ques that should come to your mind is that where is this naam??? I leave that upto you to find from SGGS and read the gurbani to find from where will u get the true naam.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]LETS MOVE FURTHER!![/FONT]
    ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਆਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ[FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Guru Nanak sahib question us “That what should we give to him , what should we keep in front of him so that we can enter his palace??”[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Now this is a common practice that whenever we go to a gurudwara or any other religious place we offer materialistic things like money or whatever. But this is not what he wants from us. Everything is given by God and we think that by giving his thing to him we’ll become one with him?? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰ[FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Now Guru Ji asks “What should we speak in order to get his happiness, his love?? Is it that we need to speak any sort of special shabad or special prayers to get his happiness???” [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    ਅਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ [FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Now Guru Nanak Sahib replies to the questions that he put forward . The only thing that we can offer to The Almighty is what we have our own ant the thing that is our own is ego “[/FONT]ਹਉਮੈ [FONT=&quot]”[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]rest everything is given to us by God. We have Developed “ego” over time and that’s wat we should offer to him. But the ques is how??[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The answer is clear “[/FONT]ਅਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ [FONT=&quot]ll” amrit vele uth ke os naam di kamaai karke, surt nu shabd naal jod ke. We already discussed that “naam, shabad, hukam, baani”are used in same context in SGGS by guru sahebaan. But as we already discussed which naam ??? The naam that created the universe. From where will we get it??? Find the answer to that in Sri guru granth sahib.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Surt Shabd naal kis tarike naal judegi??? The ques remains so find it in SGGS, do some research.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]And yes Amarpal you are absolutely right. That time is good when we think or remember the almighty. But I’ll discuss it somewhat. Guru nanak says on pg 1330 of SGGS[/FONT]
    ਨਾਉ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਛੋਡਹੁ ਦੁਨਿ ਪਰੀਤਾ[FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT] ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸਾ ਜਗਿ ਹਾਰਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਜੀਤਾ[FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Amrit vela is around 2 a.m when mind is fresh and body is fresh and there is no disturbance i.e no one comes and knocks at your door. At this time you can concentrate the most.[/FONT]
    ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ [FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]There could be three meanings to this but the best according to my knowledge should be that Guru sahib want to tell us that “The human body , we get as a result of our karmas but the oneness with almighty will come as his NADAR or DAYA or MEHAR”. What guru sahib want say is I guess that “We cannot obtain salvation by our efforts”. Oh ta os Guru di mehar naal milu jis ne sanu NAAM di data bakhsi hai.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]BAANI vich aunda hai[/FONT]
    ਨਾਮੇ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਕਿਛ ਹੁਆ ਬਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਮ ਨਾ ਜਾਪੈ [FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Sache guru ton bina naam di bhagti nahi ho sakdi.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ [FONT=&quot]ll[/FONT] [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I quote AMARPAL “Guru Sahib is telling us that ‘Karta Purakh’ is fully self sufficient; he does not need any thing from us. I hold the view that ‘Karta Purakh’ being Nirakaar has no needs or desires. He is not seeking us; we are seeking him. Guru Sahib tells us to keep this in mind.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]MY understanding is quite different “Guru sahib says that when the soul becomes one with the naam or shabad , then there is no one else, where ever I go , I look I see only the shabad only the guru , the true guru([/FONT]ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ[FONT=&quot])”[/FONT]
     
  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin Supporter SPNer

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    Nirmaljot,

    A lot of your meaning is lost because you have written so much of your explanation in Punjabi. Please if you will go back and add more English to your comments. It could be an English sentence following your Punjabi sentence. Otherwise the contrasts and the "multiple meanings' and your conclusion are completely lost of most of our audience. The vast majority of our readers will be disappointed and some even annoyed as they do not read Punjabi even in roman font. The official language of the forum is English. Thank you.
     
  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Sawa lakh se EK larraoan Writer SPNer

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    This thread is from 2004...when SPN was just an infant...now 7 years later..Nirmaljot ji brings it back to life...YES..IF the explanations were BILINGUAL...it would be immensely more interesting read Jios....Lets help everyone UNDERSTAND and benefit from our knowledge/experiences with Gurbani...the more ENGLISH..the better jios..
    japposatnamwaheguru: japposatnamwaheguru: japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru: japposatnamwaheguru:
     
    Tejwant Singh and spnadmin like this.
  5. Nirmaljot Baidwan

    Nirmaljot Baidwan SPNer

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    @ admin @gyani ji
    surely mates i m new here so sort of mixed the both. But i think knowing punjabi would help a lot on this forum. I wonder how poor are those who dont know punjabi as they cant cherish the treasure given to us by ten gurus and many bhagats. But what do u guys think about my post??? Its intriguing , i hope my understanding & research is good enough regarding 4th pauri. But v must keep polishing ourselves not only in just discussing the gurbani but also in following it.

    I personally would advise who so ever reads it, that dont just read gurbani, discuss it go deep into it and then follow it because its a treasure and only through this treasure we are going to get to that gem called naam. which naam??? The one that i have discussed above.

    May god help you alll on the path of enlightenment.
     
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin Supporter SPNer

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    nirmaljot ji

    There is the world as it is and the world as it should be. The fact is that most of our readers, and of them Sikhs born of Punjabi heritage, will not understand your ideas fully without the help of the English language. This includes an important group of young people who are just discovering their religious heritage. Punjabi is a treasure. But so are the thoughts expressed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji -- which will go unheeded and unknown if we do not make an effort to bridge the language barrier that is very real.

    Thank you for your willingness to accommodate all of our readers. Who might otherwise "vote with their feet " that is leave SPN and visit another forum where they will not be able to learn from the best you and others have to offer.


    So in answer to your question - many will not have an opinion about your post because they cannot understand what you are saying. Please help by observing the forum rule: Official language is English.


    :happykaur:
     
  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Writer Content Master SPNer

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    Nirmaljot ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Interesting interpretation. I was wondering if you have done the same for the Mool Manter and the 3 pauris! If you have, please let me know because I enjoy your thought process.

    You write:

    I have a couple of questions for you so I can understand better what you are talking about.

    1. Which Vela is NOT Amrit Vela?

    2. Where did you get 2AM as Amrit Vela from?

    Thanks and regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  8. Nirmaljot Baidwan

    Nirmaljot Baidwan SPNer

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    @tejwant singh

    i was reading a post and i saw a thread about 4th pauri which had no replies so thought of replying to it. But i'll surely share the first three pauris as well with you.

    Now talking abt your ques i just get one impression sir, i.e u did not read the post with full concentration. replyin to ur questions

    1. i quote "And yes Amarpal you are absolutely right. That time is good when we think or remember the almighty. But I’ll discuss it somewhat. Guru nanak says on pg 1330 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
    ਨਾਉ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਛੋਡਹੁ ਦੁਨਿ ਪਰੀਤਾll ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸਾ ਜਗਿ ਹਾਰਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਜੀਤਾll
    "
    The time when ever we remember the almighty is good or " amrit wela". Now the time which is not amrit wela??? It is the time when we are not thinking of him and we are thinking of worldly matters, when we think bad for someone. Some times what happens is we are in gurudwara and we are still thinking about our business or family. Now that time is not amrit wela even though we are in the gurudwara.

    2. Why 2 a.m ???
    I said AROUND 2 a.m because it is the time when body is fresh , that is the time when we dont think about worldly matters, that is the time when there is an air of spirituality, that is the time when no one will knock at your door and trouble you about your business, that is the time when the drop is ready to merge with the ocean.

    U can refer to baani of bhai gurdass regarding amrit vela.
     
  9. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Writer Content Master SPNer

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    Nirmaljot ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for your response and I am eagerly waiting for your thoughts on the Mool Mantar and the first 3 pauris and eventually the whole Jap.

    You write:

    First of all, according to Gurmat values we give benefit of the doubt to people rather than presuming things. It is always wise to ask questions. I did read the whole post.:)
    Having said that, would you be kind enough to express in your own words what the above verse means?

    What do you mean by what is in bold above? Doesn't "remembering the almighty" lie in actions or does it lie in just parroting Gurbani?

    Aren't thinking of the family and business even in the Gurdwara which may help us give new ideas to make our family and business better parts of Miri-Piri concept of Sikhi way of life?

    Do you mean our Gurus, starting with Guru Nanak worked against the nature and did not care about our body clock with whose help our bodies work?

    Do you think they would advice us to discard nature in this manner?

    What would be the reason behind it if your contention is correct? Can you please shed some light on it.

    I beg to differ with you about your above claim. First of all Baani is what is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. Bhai Gurdas ji's vaarans did not pass the benchmark that our Gurus had set up. Hence, they are not found in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    My request to you is to only quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

    Hope to learn from you.

    Thanks and regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  10. Nirmaljot Baidwan

    Nirmaljot Baidwan SPNer

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    [FONT=&quot]@tejwant Singh[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]U r welcome to ask questions. And yes sir I will be kind enough to explain the meaning of [/FONT]
    ਨਾਉ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਛੋਡਹੁ ਦੁਨਿ ਪਰੀਤਾll ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸਾ ਜਗਿ ਹਾਰਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਜੀਤਾll
    But before that I have some questions for you.
    1. 1.What do you mean by “Body Clock”. Whose concept is this??? Is this from SGGS??
    2. 2.Your post tells me that you are 56 yrs of age. I’d like to know how have you been remembering the god??? By some actions or by just “PARROTING” the gurbaani??
    3.

    I Quote you “Do you mean our Gurus, starting with Guru Nanak worked against the nature and did not care about our body clock with whose help our bodies work?
    Do you think they would advice us to discard nature in this manner?
    What would be the reason behind it if your contention is correct? Can you please shed some light on it
    .”
    Now I ask you “ you talked about nature??? Are we working according to the nature?? By reading this comment of yours I can sense that you think “Waking up early at so called amrit wela is against the nature”. I also sense that you mean that guru sahib was against getting up early or at amrit wela??? My friend you are thinking directly opposite to guru sahib.

    I quote from SGGS
    ਪਰਭਾਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਧਿਆਇ
    ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਮਲੁ ਉਤਰੈ ਸਚੇ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ (sri guru arjan dev ji pg 1099)
    Baba farid says in SGGS ,pg 1383
    ਫਰੀਦਾ ਪਿਛਲ ਰਾਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਗਿਓਹਿ ਜੀਵਦਡੋ ਮੁਇਓਹਿ

    Farid says if you are still sleeping at the time when the night is about to finish “ਪਿਛਲ ਰਾਤਿ” means the almost end of night, you are nothing more than a dead man. Why guru sahib included this verse in SGGS??? Just because guru saheb’s teachings are also the same.
    SO I DON’T AGREE WITH YOU AT ALL THAT GURU SAHEB WERE AGAINST GETTING UP AT 2 a.m or amrit vela.
    So this is not against the nature , this is what guru sahib told us. Now I’ll tell you why amrit vela is so important.
    I’ll quote from SGGS ,pg 734
    ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਅਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲੈ ਵਤੈ ਕਾ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਭਗਤ ਖਾਇ ਖਰਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਨਿਖੁਟੈ ਨਾਹੀ

    My friend only a farmer or a jatt sikh would know that if you sow seed in the ground when its on “VATT” I don’t know the English literary meaning of “vatt” but if u sow when the soil is on vat then the growth of the plant will be maximum and it will grow. In the same manner amrit wela is the time when the soul is on “VATT” and the seed of naam can make good hold in your soul. This example is given by Guru sahib. I hope now u understand that guru sahib were not against it but they came to teach us fools.

    So here not only I have explained u the meaning of the tuk or verse u asked about but I have also given you more examples from gurbaani, I have also made it clear to you that don’t keep it in your mind that guru sahib were against the nature but it is we the people who are against his nature.

    The next thing now. I quote
    “Aren't thinking of the family and business even in the Gurdwara which may help us give new ideas to make our family and business better parts of Miri-Piri concept of Sikhi way of life?”

    I want to ask you my friend
    Did you come to this world to make a good business??? Its ok that we cant live the life of sanyasis as its also forbidden in SGGS. But if you have read the gurbaani you would not have asked me this question because its clearly mentioned in SGGS that the aim of the man who is sent on this world is not “TO MAKE THEIR BUSINESS”

    What is the aim then???
    Guru arjan dev ji has said “bhai prapat manukh dehuriya,Gobind Milan ki eh teri bariya”
    Now after reading this the question which should come to your mind is “How to meet with GOBIND or GOD then??” But I guess it wont. SO I’ll tell you sir, guru amardas ji says on pg 109-110

    ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ llਸੇਵਾ ਸੁਰਤ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਏll
    It clearly means that it is not in your control to find a true guru (ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ) but if its in your fate then u’ll come across the true guru and then what will happen???
    llਸੇਵਾ ਸੁਰਤ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਏll
    He’ll tell u to serve the almighty , how?? By merging your surt(soul) in the naam or shabd .
    Naam or shabd is no where else but in your body , within yourself. Now anyone can object me here and say, what am I talking??? Am I out of my mind?? But I’m not sayin this . SGGS says this

    GURU NANAK SAYS IN SGGS on pg 1026

    ਦੇਹੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਵਾਸੀll ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ll

    Can naam be easily obtained???
    NO says guru sahib. Guru ramdaas ji says on pg 1242
    ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਅਲਖੁ ਹੈ ਕਿਉ ਲਖਿਆ ਜਾਈll
    But in the same shabad he says
    ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਦੇਈ ਦਿਖਾਈ ll
    This clearly means theat when u get the true guru or poora guru, he’ll show it to you within yourself.
     
  11. findingmyway

    findingmyway Supporter Content Master SPNer

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    Admin Note: Please Post Full Shabads With Gurmukhi and English and Page Numbers. Taking 1 or 2 Lines Out o The Context of the Shabad will often distort the meaning so please use whole shabads to illustrate your post.

    Thank you! icecreamkaur
     
  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Sawa lakh se EK larraoan Writer SPNer

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    The SGGS is the MIRROR of Human LIFE.....a Time Line...we BEGIN LIFE...in the WOMB...then grow.....and then we get OLD..and time to say Good BYE !! The SGGS is arranged that way....read carefully......
    MOOL MANTAR..is the SEED in the WOMB..and the Nauvaan Mehalla da sloks at end of SGGS is TIME TO SAY...GOOD BYE !! In between the 1429 pages of SGGS is a mirror of OUR LIFE..as we proceed along the highway....of Life..
    The SEASONS...months years..Gharrees Day and NIGHT are mentioned so many times in GURBANI..ALL these REFER METAPHORICALLY to OUR LIFE !! Din gavaiah khayeh ke and raat gavee soi keh..is NOT the 24 hours..its a reference to our ENTIRE LIFE TIME...we eat and we sleep daily....and then its time to GO..and we cry.."give me a few seconds more..I wnat to Naam Japp ???but the Time for that is long gone..Bhagat Kabir ji describes the Trembling feet, shaking head, watery eyes, loud of hearing ears...slurry tongue...that is OUR LIFE STORY..the TIME LINE !! See what Guru Teg bahadur Ji says at the END of SGGS..feet trembling..nain jyot te heen eys almost blind....and what is now left to do..JUST REGRET. Pichhal RAAT is this TIME...and IF we can wake up even then..it will be some saving grace.....We all get ashot at the TOOL BOX...soem of us never open it and the tools rust away unused..others use them so well they shine form USE...yet others dont even realsie they have a tool box...
     
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  13. Nirmaljot Baidwan

    Nirmaljot Baidwan SPNer

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    @findingmyway
    i give the page number so that the reader can also do some work from his part. They can refer to the shabad anytime. even if i quote the whole shabad it will make the post so bulky and as the reader reads it might happen that they lose interest.

    its not only that meaning of whole shabad matters to me, each sentence Of SGGS has a meaning and for me , even if i get the meaning of that sentence, i'd think i'm successful.
     
  14. Nirmaljot Baidwan

    Nirmaljot Baidwan SPNer

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    @ gyani jarnail singh ji
    I'd agree with you somewhat. But i'd like you to throw some light on what should be done so that we do not regret at the end???
     
  15. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh Administrator SPNer

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    Gurfateh Nirmaljot ji,

    It is a forum regulation that whenever we quote from a Shabad, we share our own understanding of the entire shabad rather than taking one tukk (line) out of context. Just because someone thinks that quoting one line out of context is sufficient does make it sufficient! Not at-least at SPN!

    Once you have shared your understanding on the entire Shabad, it becomes that much easy to understand your point of view. This is the only way we can learn from each other and evolve.

    We hope you adhere to this forum rule responsibly.

    Thank you!

    Regards
     
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  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin Supporter SPNer

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    Nirmaljot ji

    Aman Singh ji has given you very kind advice regarding the rules of the forum. The forum rule is to post an entire shabad - or in the case of Japji Sahib the entire pauree. There is no way around this.

    In your response, now deleted, you saw fit to play with words in stating the the entire shabad is too vast to post in one comment. I seemed you were challenging our TOS on the basis of the endless and timeless scope of Shabad Guru. Of course we are not dim-witted and take your point. However we are asking only for a Guru Shabad, which will suffice.

    If you do not post an entire shabad, then someone else, probably me, will have to do it for you. And that is not consistent with my definition of seva. Failure to do so will lead a deletion. This is a formal and official warning, after which further action will be taken, if you do not comply. Thank you. :angryadminkaur:
     
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  17. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Writer Content Master SPNer

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    Nirmaljot ji,

    Guru fateh.

    You write:

    As mentioned by the wonderful leaders of this forum, please post the whole Shabad with your own understanding along with the literal translation if you like, so we can learn from each other. Having said that you have forgotten to explain the meaning of the above in this post.

    I am sorry to disappoint you but this approach of yours will not work in this forum. This forum is meant to exchange Gurmat ideas, thoughts and our understanding of Gurbani, which may create healthy debates at times and that is OK but unfortunately your approach to my queries is to be argumentative, which again does not serve any purpose here.When you post something here, then it is your duty to respond to the queries regarding your post. Once you have done that, then you have every right to ask the questioner to share his/ her point of view regarding the same subject.


    My query:

    Do you mean our Gurus, starting with Guru Nanak worked against the nature and did not care about our body clock with whose help our bodies work?
    Do you think they would advice us to discard nature in this manner?
    What would be the reason behind it if your contention is correct? Can you please shed some light on it
    .”

    Your response:

    Pardon my ignorance, but once again you are connecting Amrit vela to early in the morning. You are contradicting yourself from your post which made me ask you questions. Please read your own post first and no one is talking about that it is harmful to get up in the morning. That is totally a different topic. The only question is what is Amrit Vela?

    Please follow the forum rules as mentioned by the leaders. You may start a different thread with the explanation of each Shabad in your own words to express your viewpoint if you like and then we can discuss each Shabad and its message.

    Once again you are confused and contradicting yourself from your original in which you explained what is not Amrit Vela. No one is against getting up in the morning as mentioned before but that is not the point of my queries to you. Please read it again to clarify in your mind what I have specifically asked you.

    Having said that your above example is very archaic and bigoted. First and foremost, Sikhi rejects any caste system. I thought you knew that. Secondly, there are many non-jatt Sikhs who are also farmers. Lastly things do not work like that on the farms anymore. Farms have equipments and the farmers do not have to get up very early any more, not even dairy farmers because the machines attached to the udders have the timers.

    But, that is not the point. People around the world work graveyard shifts, night shifts and at different hours, even in India due to IT. So your contention above is irrelevant and makes no sense.

    I have no idea what you mean by the above. I would like you to elaborate it.

    My query:
    “Aren't thinking of the family and business even in the Gurdwara which may help us give new ideas to make our family and business better parts of Miri-Piri concept of Sikhi way of life?”

    Once again you are mixing apples with oranges. Guru Sahib taught us through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru how to become good citizens of the society we live in and for us to attain that goal they created the unique concept of Miri-Piri for us to follow. Please read about Miri-Piri concept started by Guru Nanak and named as such by our 6th Guru. If you have already studied the concept, then please share it with us.

    Here you again assuming things about others. You have assumed that I have not read Gurbani. Where is the benefit of the doubt according to Gurmat values?:) It seems to me that it is you who has failed to grasp the meaning of what is written in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. Once you explain the concept of Miri- Piri, I am sure you will change your mind and understand the true meaning of what our Gurus' message is.


    Please follow the forum guidelines as explained by the leaders and then we can discuss each Shabad in details if you wish to.

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  18. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga Supporter SPNer

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    NIRMALJOT BAIDWAN Ji,,

    You seem to have good understanding of Gurbaani words but I still find that your meanings do not match the grammer of the words.Probably you are not familiar with grammer of the gurbaani words.
    You will appreciate the fact that there is definitely some important grammer in Gurbaani words.So pl apply the correct grammer and get the correct meaning of the words.
    This I am relating to the interpretation of AMRITWELAA .It has different references in different contexts.If you refer NAAO PARBHATE as equal to AMRITWELA then your time of AMRITWELA as 2 a.m is not valid.Because the period of PRABHAT is considered that during which NIGHT is just going and DAY is just coming.

    I am not criticising your views .I just want to convey that if you give a little bit consideration to grammer of the words your interpretation would be more sharpand more closer to the true meaning s of the Gurbaani message.
    It isonly a suggestion rest is up to you only.

    With best wishes

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     

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