Islam Isma'ili

[aristotle]

I would like to give you a :hug: and put this tustle as a storm in a teacup.

What about me? I mean, that's not fair...:'(

 

[Archived_member15]

What about me? I mean, that's not fair...:'(

mundahug

Brother Aristotle I never accused you of being an "Islam-basher" nor even disagreed with your initial post and quotations. I merely wanted to provide other passages of a more positive nature since this is the Islam section of the interfaith part of the forum.

But in the spirit of reconciliation, heck why not, I'll give you some bromance :hug:

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

Judaism, unlike Islam and Christianity, has never restricted salvation to only Jews, but recognises that all people of good will can go to heaven.

Actually, Islam believes all "good people" will meet their Lord and have nothing to fear.

"Those who believe and those who are Jews, Sabeans and Christians- anyone who believes in God and the Last Day, and acts honorably, should have no fear nor will they be saddened." (Quran 5:69, also mentioned in other places throughout Quran such as 2:62)

"Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve" (2:62)

It also speaks of Abraham's religion as the best religion and Abraham was not Christian or Jewish.

"Abraham was neither a "Jew" nor a "Christian", but was one who turned away from all that is false, having surrendered himself unto God; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him." (Quran 3:67)

Whose way is better than that of the man who has submitted to God, and does good, and who follows the creed of Abraham the upright? And God chose Abraham as friend. (Quran 4:125)

And Quran says even other species will find their Lord (and uniting w/ God is Paradise, yes?):
"Have you not seen how everyone in Heaven and Earth glorifies God, even to the birds lined up (in flight)? Each knows its prayer and how to glorify Him. God is Aware of whatever they do." (Quran 24:41-42)

Whatever is in the heavens and the earth declares the glory of Allah, and He is the Mighty, the Wise. (Quran 57:1)

Having said all this, I have had conversations with Muslims (such as Naben who writes on the Islamic section of this forum) who will say that once Quran was revealed, only Muslims will go to Paradise. I disagree if it means "Muslims" (those who practice Islam & "muslims" (the innate praise and the surrender to God that is described in 24:41-42 and 57:1)

Nam Jiwan peacesignkaur

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

Ishna ji

Hmm, I'm not very interested in Judaism so I only skimmed that section. A religion that teaches a woman is unclean to the point of hysteria when she experiences a perfectly natural menstrual cycle isn't worth my time right now.

Leviticus 15

Well, tampons help with that. In those times women bled on rags. And I don't know about you, it would end up being pretty unclean for me. But I know what you mean and I agree.

In pagan times, when matriarchal societies were the norm, women often gathered in caves during their periods. They would go away to the caves and it became a spiritual thing to honor the "womb" in this way.

Nam Jiwan

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

Vouthon ji

Christianity does not propose a law grounded in a particular revelation. Rather, it grounds Law in universal Natural Law discovered through reason.

I think Jesus pbuh speaks frequently of a law. It is a law of the heart.

Here are verses I would like to ask you to comment on in that light and also according to your understanding of the law / or lack of revealed laws. I'll start with asking for your comments on the verses below from the Book of Matthew. mundahug

Don’t suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen. If you reject even the least important command in the Law and teach others to do the same, you will be the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. But if you obey and teach others its commands, you will have an important place in the kingdom. You must obey God’s commands better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law obey them. If you don’t, I promise you that you will never get into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:17-20)


Treat others as you want them to treat you. This is what the Law and the Prophets are all about. (Matt. 7:12)


Nam Jiwan kudihugmundahug

 

[Ishna]

I had not checked the previous page until now. Thank you for the apology! peacesignkaur

I certainly feel bad about accusing you of "bashing". That was a sweeping accusation made in the heat of the moment.

I have no opposition to anyone pointing out areas of another belief system that they disagree with or even are perturbed by. I have made criticism of other religious beliefs in my time but I would hope that I have always used a considerate tone when doing so, mindful that other people are devoted to their faiths. I expect always that religions be spoken of with a respectful tone since they are the cherished beliefs of millions of human beings and have created whole civilisations, or had wide ranging influence in socities or in individual lives. This demands a tone of compassion even if negative elements are highlighted. I got the impression of mockery and unfair dismissiveness from one of your posts which is what really upset me. However I was wrong to say that you are bashing Judaism. You are fully within your rights to critique it or any other belief system.

I would like to give you a :hug: and put this tustle as a storm in a teacup.

I want to thank you again for quoting a positive passage from the Tanakh. I really appreciated that. It was a lovely sentiment.

Vouthonji

You have no need to apologise as your reaction was justified. My behaviour was irrational and my comments were indeed vicious and without consideration. My frustration shouldn't be taken out in this way, I am very sorry. Thank you for having the kindness to point out that I've overstepped the line and then to reconcile. It's that kind of example which the world needs. :hug:

 

[Archived_member15]

Sat Nam _/|\_


Here are verses I would like to ask you to comment on in that light and also according to your understanding of the law / or lack of revealed laws. I'll start with asking for your comments on the verses below from the Book of Matthew. mundahug

Don’t suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen. If you reject even the least important command in the Law and teach others to do the same, you will be the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. But if you obey and teach others its commands, you will have an important place in the kingdom. You must obey God’s commands better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law obey them. If you don’t, I promise you that you will never get into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:17-20)


Treat others as you want them to treat you. This is what the Law and the Prophets are all about. (Matt. 7:12)


Nam Jiwan kudihugmundahug

My dear sister Namji peacesignkaur

Thank you for your question!

I agree with your comment ie "law of the heart", which is why I mentioned Jesus "love" command earlier on. However that is the law of conscience, imposed from within and not from without. This law is the only law that Christianity recognises as divine law. There are no other revealed laws.

Read this description by Tan (a Catholic publisher) of Saint John of the Cross' diagram of the spiritual path:

St. John of the Cross has left us a drawing which sums up, expresses in synthesis the whole spiritual life. It is the outline of a mountain whose summit, symbolized by a circle, represents the state of perfection. The ascent is symbolized by three paths, all leading toward the summit, but only one of them, the narrowest, reaches it. This is the way of the "nothing" (nada), the way of total abne- gation. It leads directly to the summit of the mount, where there is an inscription: "Only the honour and glory of God remain."

The soul arrives at this supreme height, when dominated by perfect charity, it adheres totally to the divine will, and moved by that divine will alone, tends solely to the glory of the Most Holy Trinity. On the periphery of the circle are the words: "And here there is no way, as for the just man there is no law..." In fact, the soul which is completely dominated by the love of God no longer needs the stimulus of an external law obliging it to keep on the right road; God's will has become the one "principle of activity" which moves and directs it in all its actions. This is why the Saint says that, in this state, the two wills--the will of God and the will of the soul--have become one, and this one will is the divine will which has now become the will of the soul, which, losing itself in this divine will, has abandoned all other choice.


All the infused virtues, together with the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, flourish abundantly in this soul, making it enjoy intimacy with God in a "perpetual banquet, divine silence, and divine wisdom."
Thus, by following the rugged path of the "nada" (nothing) the soul reaches the immense "All" of God, its only treasure, in which it loses itself.

That is why Jesus abolished such a peripheral, provisional, time-bound "law".

Laws change. Our conscience never changes. We always have that innate sense of "right and wrong".

Saint Paul explained (using the same words as your good self):

"...When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness..."

- Saint Paul (Romans 2:8-16)

I think that the passage on the law should not be quoted out of context, ie without reference to other passages, such as:

"...The law and the prophets were in effect until John came; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is proclaimed, and everyone tries to enter it by force. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one stroke of a letter in the law to be dropped..."

- Luke 16:17

Some people splice this passage, quoting only the second part to try and make it appear that Jesus holds the law to be binding (which would make his frequent breaking of the law illegal). However the first part demonstrates that Jesus does believe the law has been abrogated. His second refers to the essence or "Spirit" of the law, its eternal, perrenial aspect (and not the societal laws).

Jesus was the fulfilment of the law that he spoke of; although it is accurate to say that the Old Covenant hadn't been completely "fulfilled" yet until the last Supper of Christ when he inaugurated the New Covenant in his blood, consummated on the cross. This was explained by Saint Paul:

2 Corinthians 3:6 The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life

Ephesians 2:15
[15] by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

The essence of the Jewish Tanakh is "Love your neighbour as you love yourself" and love God above everything.

In his lifetime Jesus had already abrogated the law on the sabbath, the dietary laws, the law on stoning for adultery, the law dealing with lepers and women with menstruation etc.

The letter of Hebrews goes so far as to declare:

Hebrews 8:13

He [Jesus] is the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second...By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear

Of course it is true though that the essence of the law will never pass away. Jesus interpreted that essence as being the "golden rule" common (in some form) to all religions (whether expressed positively or negatively, both are equal):

"...In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets..."
- Matthew 7:12

We believe that the Torah in its entirety is no longer binding or necessary for salvation. Jesus explained what the essence of the Old Covenant was and that is an eternal facet of it which is why it is still Sacred Scripture, inspired and worthy as a teacher of humanity. However none of its laws or punishments are valid post-Jesus in Christian eyes. Only the moral teachings which are perrenial and match up with Christian values are valid still. The "spirit", not the "letter".

It ceased to be an effective law upon the coming of John the baptist and was rendered utterly obsolete by Jesus' inauguration of the New Covenant at the last supper and on the cross (as far as its laws and punishments but not morals or matters of faith are concerned ie anything to do with love of God, neighbour, doing to others as to oneself etc.).

Its societal or social teachings are thus completely abrogated in our eyes. They form no part of Christian. That is Judaism not Christianity (and even Jews have a progressive understanding of such verses ie through the later Rabbis).

If one wishes to critique Christian social teachings, one has to turn to the New Testament or early sacred traditions outside the Bible written in the first century or early second century not the Old Testament (Tanakh), that is Judaism (in terms of law, punishment, mores etc.)

Thus in the Catechism the Catholic Church explains:

204 God revealed himself progressively and under different names to his people

Dei Verbum, a document of the Second Vatican Council, itself notes, that the Old Testament “contains matters imperfect and provisional.” But the Council goes on to say that,

"These books [of the Old Testament] nevertheless show us authentic divine teaching. Christians should accept with veneration these writings which give expression to a lively sense of God, which are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way" (15).

So we believe it to be divinely inspired but written through the minds of ancient people living in a tribal culture with very different (and less humane) social mores from us that Jesus abolished utterly since he brought out its spiritual meaning or essence and "filled it full". Therefore its a treasury of wisdom but not without fault and no longer binding in its laws.

Hope that helps! peacesignkaur

 

[namjiwankaur]

SatNam _/|\_

Vouthon ji

Have you ever read any of the Gnostic gospels?

While I don't think Jesus, pbuh, came with a book of laws like the Torah, I think he does set new laws rather than abrogate old ones. The New Testament shows him doing this. He is not saying adultery is no longer a sin, for example. He is adding to that a law about judging others. He doesn't do away with the laws of the Torah. He uses them to create a new law.

Too many Christians say they don't have to worry about sinning since Jesus sets them free. They gloss over all the moral teachings of Jesus. I do see laws where most Christians don't see them. One thing Islam has taught me is that I must live my life in a way that is pleasing to God. And Jesus is one example of that for Muslims as well as Christians.

I haven't had a chance to read what you wrote. Have to clean my guinea pig's cage then I'll try to spend time reviewing what you have written. I would also like to start a thread in Christianity on Gnostic Christianity. Christianity, like most religions with billions of followers, has a vast diversity. That is a good thing .... if everyone is willing to agree that religions can be practiced and viewed from many perspectives.

I think one thing the internet community needs to learn is how to respect other people's opinions. There is so much ugly disrespectful interchanges. It shows how we have lost some of the common decency. You discuss all this very respectfully.

We are all opinionated and its not a bad thing ... I am working on making sure I let others have their opinions. I tend to debate rather than learn together with people and explore.

Take care. I'll be back soon, insha'Ala.
Nam Jiwanpeacesign

 

[Archived_member15]

SatNam _/|\_

Vouthon ji

Have you ever read any of the Gnostic gospels?

Nam Jiwanpeacesign

Dear sister Namji :sippingcoffeemunda:

Yes I have read every text in the Nag Hammadi corpus, as well as the Gospel of Mary (discovered outwith Nag Hammadi) and the Gospel of Judas.

I am most favourable to the Gospel of Thomas, as is the current Pope Benedict, as a witness to traditions of Jesus sayings not recorded by the gospel writers. I follow the scholars who date it to the late first century rather than the second century.

Pope Benedict XVI considers the Gospel of Thomas and the Acts of Thomas as occupying a unique place of importance among the apochrypha in terms of Christian origins:

"...Indeed, the Acts and the Gospel of Thomas, both apocryphal works but in any case important for the study of Christian origins, were written in his name..."

- Pope Benedict XVI, General Address, 2006

In his book "Jesus of Nazareth" (Volume I, 2008) Benedict quotes approvingly from the Gospel of Thomas:

"...The application of this passage primarily to Christ—as we saw earlier—does not have to exclude a secondary interpretation referring to the believer. A saying from the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas (108) points in a direction compatible with John’s Gospel: “Whoever drinks from my mouth shall become as I am” (Barrett, Gospel, p. 328). The believer becomes one with Christ and participates in his fruitfulness. The man who believes and loves with Christ becomes a well that gives life. That, too, is something that is wonderfully illustrated in history: The saints are oases around which life sprouts up and something of the lost paradise returns. And ultimately, Christ himself is always the well-spring who pours himself forth in such abundance..."

- Pope Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth (Volume I), 2008

Michael Peppard on the "National Catholic Reporter" comments:

"...New Testament scholars might also be surprised to discover non-canonical Christian texts quoted favorably by the Pope. For example, when interpreting the metaphorical imagery of the Gospel of John, Pope Benedict uses both the Gospel of Thomas and the Didache to illuminate aspects of John’s message. Despite the Pope’s championing of “canonical exegesis” (“reading the individual texts of the Bible in the context of the whole”), he does not in practice treat the canonical boundary as an impermeable wall. It is a barrier, to be sure, but more like a fence, through whose gaps the Spirit can still blow insightful seeds from beyond—whether..."