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Islamic view of the Sikh concept of God

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Santokh Singh1989, Feb 26, 2010.

  1. Santokh Singh1989

    Santokh Singh1989
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    Sat Naam, Greetings community, this is my first post but I feel it is an important one. It is something that has been eating away at me and distresses me. Let me preface this by saying that I have NO hatred for Islam or Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, and that along with that one of my best friends is infact a muslim. I belive there is truth in all faiths to one degree or another and do not believe that one path is right over another and that if followed correctly we will all find salvation. I chose Sikhi as my path because I feel its what works for ME and is what makes the most sense to ME. That being said I have been doing alot of research on various topics regarding my religion some of the research has made me take a deeper look into what it is that I believe, which is not a bad thing, but like most other things in the world I find there is alot of controversy in Sikhi regarding various subjects. the one I want to talk about now and that has been upsetting me for a while now is this... It seems that some muslims have a big problem with Sikhi because of our concept of God, they say that Nirgun-Sargun in contradictery and as such is false, and as such our religion is false. I personanly never had a hard time understanding the Nirgun Sargun theory but aparently some do. Now the reason this bothers me so much is that I have alot of respect for Islam and Muslims, before I converted to Sikhi from being a more or less christian ( I still have mad respect for Jesus ji although I don't believe he was God, another topic for another time) I studied Islam and nearly became a follower of Mohammed. Then as I personly believe God introduced me to the Guru and I became a sikh and have been one ever since. The real trouble started when i stumbled upon this website World's first Islam-Sikhism Da'wah Initiative - HOME I plead and beg the sangat to please look into this website and read what they have to say, not because I believe in what the sight has to say but because I want to know the opinions of true Gursikhs and what they have to say about the comments that these people make. The website and the people who run it upset me to no end but because I am a Sikh and it is my personal belief that I must take all things into consideration whether i think they're bull**** or not because I believe blind faith is false faith. I have only been a Sikh for about 3 years now and don't feel that I have the intellect to deal with the accusations made by this sight simply because A. I can not read Gurumukhi or speak panjabi and have to rely on translations, B. I have studied much of SGGS but not all of it yet, and C. I know there are Sikhs who have done MUCH more research than I have and know much more than I do and can read the things on this sight and have a better view of them. When I spoke with my muslim friend about the things said on this sight he simpy said it was probably a matter of them (them being the runners of the sight and other muslims who agree with them) misunderstanding and misinterpreting things said by the Guru ji's. I honestly don't know, but it does upset me as I personly believe that regardless of whether they are right or not that there are many other things about Sikhi and Islam that are simmilar and that instead of breeding more hatred and distance between the two that we should embrace the things that we have in common. But it seems that those people who run that sight and other muslims who believe in what they say are only worried about converting everyone to Islam and expanding the already large gap between the two religons which I feel is wrong. But I want to get the opinion of the Saadh Sangat and what people have to say about their accusations. The sight again is World's first Islam-Sikhism Da'wah Initiative - HOME. I implore you, please vist this sight and tell me what our opinion on them is. It saddens me when I think that there seems to be many people against Sikhi but the Gurus, to my knowledge, were never against other religions just some othe the hypocrisy and rituals that some of the followers of those religions were subjecting themselves to, which in my opinion was not the fault of the religions but of bad people who took positions of power in them. I don't know though I am no Philosapher only a lowly student of the Guru trying to understand what I can about this complex and sometimes f***ed up world. Please read and give me your opinion,
    WJKK WJKF
    Garrett Miller
    aka Santokh Singh


    P.S. Please excuse my spelling, my sincere apologies
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Santokh Singh 1989 ji

    First let me welcome you to SPN :welcome: and I am extremely moved by the essay that you have written above. It is to our benefit that you have shared such thoughts.

    There are many negatives about the Internet. That includes negatives about forums as well. However, many good ends are served by internet forums -- and I think your visit here is one of those occasions.

    You have a Muslim friend with whom you have serious discussions and that person seems to be perhaps a member of a rare breed -- someone who with different religious beliefs and values from yours, and who can still see value and goodness in people who are different. So do you the same toward him.

    But an Internet forum can be a benefit. An Internet forum can be one of the places where you find out that there are literally dozens of individuals who share your questions, only you never realized there were so many of us until you logged on. This is the good thing. Because I can tell you that all of your concerns, every single one of them, has been reviewed and discussed many times here. Reading your words I can share you dismay, and I do. That is the good side of being part of a forum.

    " It seems that some muslims have a big problem with Sikhi because of our concept of God, they say that Nirgun-Sargun in contradictery and as such is false, and as such our religion is false. I personanly never had a hard time understanding the Nirgun Sargun theory but aparently some do." You will get support for this statement. But please don't think that fanatics will ever give up. Some Muslims have a problem because they believe that their worth on planet earth and their value to Allah depends on converting everyone to Islam. This has been true for centuries.

    So please feel that you have allies here. Please look through threads in Interfaith Dialogs that explore Sikhism and Islam and you will find many fine people who have debated the very ideas that are causing you stress. Those are your allies.

    Lastly -- we are well aware of the dawah sites. Thank you for posting the link to a particularly difficult group. You are actually doing me a personal favor because I can look through those links and be prepared the next time someone or some group of individuals visits SPN to start a debate. No I am wrong. They claim they want a debate, but what they really want to do is insult our religion. And they do. And they are escorted off the forum eventually, after being given plenty of time to make their case in a respectful way.

    These people are not like your friend.

    Take heart. You have already made a contribution of value. So my next step will be to explore that site. There are many scholars here at SPN, and also in the world at large, who are ready to supply you with the arguments against such propaganda.
     
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  4. GURSIKHNAM

    GURSIKHNAM
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    SAT-SRI-AKAL.
    My dearest SIKH, in my opinion, people can say what they like to say, I too have read on many religions philosophies. My verdict: I am happy and grateful to Waheguru, that I was chosen to be born in a SIKH family. For one, our muslim brothers are good in arguing on many issues related to other religions, look how they talk against the christian, although the Koran mentions on the acceptance of the books of the Christians. Do they really understand the Koran? If so why are there some who are out to wreak the world? Were not all humans the creation of one God. Some claim God only belongs to them and all others are evil. I don't wish to criticize any body or any religion, and that is against the philosophy of a true SIKH, as all creation belongs to GOD, so why call some bad and some good. Just understand this, which religious bible advocates peace and which preaches the same faith to all irespective of any religious belief. You for one, had a reason on why you chose to be what you wanted to be. There is no point arguing on which religion is better than the other, nobody knows except GOD himself, as it is GOD by whose will all was created. The message of Waheguru is simple: To those who wants to know the truth, the ultimate Guru is the SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB. Let's stop wasting our valuable energy on trying to prove each another as right or wrong; but use it instead to fulfill our obligation mediating on the naam which is the ultimate destination. Peace to the whole universe. Sat Nam Sri Waheguru.
     
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  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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  6. ballym

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    Gurus were not against other religion.... right.But people misuse this and propagate their own ideas.Baba Virsa Singh(His disciple Harbhjan yogi promoted his own brand of sikhism.... not bad for some and too bad in others' ideas) promoting all religions at one place.... very good but what message people send or tell others......
    Oh, we can dilute sikhi if we promote such things!
    We do not object to many things/ rituals... people start their own way of religious practice... no problem, I would say.
    But what message is propagated.... oh,we can undermine this religion and may be breakaway some of its followers!
    So, there are two ways to react to this.... Oppose it and make your religion a more strict code of conduct.
    Second is to allow these MINOR variations and focus on promoting your religion further.personally, I would choose option 2.
    Now with this Muslim/sikh meeting... ultimate result is going to be islam supremacy.... we should know this by history.
    Unless we remain committed to our benefit, we are going to commit mistake again.
    I think we do not need open support of other religion to promote ourselves.
    I checked the site..... waste of time.
     
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  7. Santokh Singh1989

    Santokh Singh1989
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    Sat Naam, First off thank you Narayanjot Kaur for your kind words and welcome. I do intend to continue reading the posts on this forum as well as doing other research were I can. My friend Khalid Abduhakh (I probably butchered his name) is indeed of a rare breed. He is the Mardana to my Nanak. (not that I am in ANY way on the same level as the Sat Guru). We have been friends for some time now and have alot in common. The main of which is that we are both converts and that (and this is just my opinion) we try to follow our religions as truthfully as we can and as close to what our founders truthfully believed in as possible. Its people like him that continuely remind me that all people of all faiths are brothers and sisters and truthfully helps me keep in mind the message of our Gurus. I have a deep love for True Muslims as well as true followers of any faith. Which is, I believe, why when i encounter sites like the one I linked it sincerly hurts my soul. There is soo much hate in the world. So many millions upon millions of people have died needlesly through wars caused by desception or by people proclaiming that their way was right over the other way when usually when you look into it the differences are only as big as big as this ______ line. But greedy and evil people blow thows differences out of proportion and make them into huge things. Then people get offended and then people start to die.... needlesley I might add. Then there are those people who take beliefs and mold them to fit there own agenda. For example, one of the meanings of Jihad aside from a material war against "infidels", is the war against ones own lower self. The constant battle we face to conquer or animalistic nature and thoughts and merge with the devine. But people manipulate that which brings to me nothing but sadness beacuse I see things like this happen everywhere in the world, and with every political group and religious group not just Islam.

    To Gursikhnam, I thank you for your comment and agree whole heartedly. truthfully many muslims, as well as people of other faiths, really don't know anything about there religions and really need to take the time out to gp pver their respected religious documents. I agree that argueing is pointless over who is right or who is wrong because in the end they are all just human opinions and ( I M O) only God knows the truth. Which is why I don't believe any one group is right or wrong why I don't feel I need to go to a muslim or hindu or christian and say "You are wrong and you need to believe in what i believe in because only I am right" because in the end I believe that if I have any knowledge that is true, I only have it because God blessed me with it, I know what God wills me to know, and one of those things that I know is that I am human and as such am falible and have no right to tell other people how to live or be and no right to assume that my way is right over others. I believe thats what atrackted me to Sikhi. The fact that there is no Chosen people. The Gurus, to my knowledge, never taught that one way was right another wrong, only that one should love the 1 eternal Creator and remember him always. at least thats what I have gotten from the teachings.

    I am very please to everyone who has answered so far and hope more will write on this post as I wish to hear more opinions. I am also happy that people are checking out that sight at the very least because these people are making comments, which I feel are false, and I want people to be aware of them. I hope more people will read into their arguements purely so we can refute them if/when need be.

    SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he
    may be called one. First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped
    away. Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life. As he
    submits to God.s Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit. And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to​
    all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. page 141

    one of my favorite pieces of Gurbani, I showed this passge as well as a few others pertaining to the same general subject to my friend and he very much enjoyed them.
     
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  8. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    Santokh Singh ji,

    I visited that website and let me be blunt. It is pure unadultrated **** (the censor will knock that out, but you get the idea. It is just another site full of inaccuracies, distortions and outright lies that, imo, should just be ignored. Don't visit it; I'm sure they have a counter and I wouldn't want to add to their total.

    Like most Islamic sites their purpose is conversion in any way they can. They want to turn Sikhs into Muslims and Muslims into smug believers that they know everything about Sikhi. I believe they are best ignored. What they are saying is not illegal (I think), so better to get on with the business of living. I do not dislike the adherents of any faith (although I admit I have to work on the Hindu-thing); I do intensely dislike others trying to convert me. I am growing, however. I don't hate it as I used to. I am currently disabled and my caregiver, who is a born-again, spirit-filled Christian is completely outraged at the idea of God not hating SIN. She looks at me, smugly accusing, certain that her belief and her belief only is TRUE: "Your God is not righteous." Oh, well. That is life. I am happy to leave her with her beliefs; they fulfill her needs and give her great comfort and joy. Who am I to try to take that from her? I admit that I'd be very happy if she would have the same respect for me, but it just isn't going to happen.


    I do not dislikes Muslims at all. I have a couple friends like yours who is respectful of my beliefs - although they are still certain that I'm wrong. The same with Christians. To me the single biggest difference between the Abrahamic (Jewish-Christian-Muslim) belief in God and our belief in God is that the Abrahamic view is that God is angry and punishing and unless you believe certain things, you're going to get it in the end! In the Sikh perspective, as you know, God is Nirvair, without hate.

    Sikhi is for me that "something to live for, great enough to die for." I have learned that I can remain in chardi kala no matter what happens because that is a gift Guru ji gives all Sikhs. Sometimes when life is difficult, you meed to dig deep for it, but it's always there. (You'll probably read more about my difficulties if you hang around here; like most people I have a story to tell and I tell it here.)

    I do tend to ramble on and on, so let me stop before I start boring even myself.

    Welcome :welcome:and gurufateh and remain in chardi kala!

    Mai :ice:
     
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  9. kee_jaana_mein_kaun

    kee_jaana_mein_kaun
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    Santokh Singh ji,

    I visited the site but meray pallay kujh nahi pyaa.

    I just looked at the poll "Do you believe Guru Nanak was a Muslim?"

    The number of poll participants and those who said "NO" gave me an idea about the SITE.
     

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