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Islam Islamic Hajj

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by S|kH, Dec 7, 2004.

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  1. S|kH

    S|kH
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    Just wanted to share something cool I learned about the Hajj in Islam :

    When they go for the hajj, they are not allowed to cut their hair, as its devotion to God's will and their pilgrimage.

    Of course they shave it off at the end of their trip and leave it at the site to mark their presence.

    But, its pretty cool and kind of adds a new idealogy to Guru Nanaks/Gobinds reason for keeping kesh. Since, we don't have a specific site where we must face or reasons for pilgrimage, and we choose to show devotion 24/7 in God's presence everywhere. We keep it all times.

    It's like we're on the hajj 24/7 ;)
     
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  3. Arvind

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    Add-On: Hindus at Tirupati offer their kesh as the highest offer to God.

    In Hindu mythology, cutting kesh of someone was equivalent to insulting him/her for life time e.g. Jaidrath, who kept it in his mind and was very instrumental in killing of Abhimanyu by distracting Arjun. There are loads of examples where kesh cutting was done to humiliate someone.

    Regards.
     
  4. CaramelChocolate

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    Hmm, what about the ritual hair cutting/shaving ceremony at a young age? However, I would like to mention that a lot of the male Hindu dieties kept hair, such as Shiv... As far as I know, Bhagwan Swaminarayan who was alive at the time of Sikhism also never cut his hair.

    ~CaramelChocolate~
     
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Cutting off the hair was the equivalent of a "death sentence" in Hindu India of Satyug/Dwapur.


    Also since a Brahmin couldnt be "put to death" under any circumstances even by a King...cutting off his gotee was the only option of punishing him..so he was shaved bald and let go.

    the shaving bald at certain ceremonies i think is a throwback to "giving" your head "symbolically"....

    And we also do that...... "give your head sumbolically" BY MATHA TEK at the Gurdwara !!!....because that symbolism is all we do really.... we are supposed to matha tek ( and leave our manmatt at the Guru's feet...and take back GURMATT from the Guru Ji....BUT what we do is TAKE BACK our very own manmatt !!!

    jarnail Singh:)
     
  6. Arvind

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    I believe Matha Tek in true sense is so very important, so that Manmatt can be left there to recieve Gurmatt from Guru Sahib.
     
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  7. CaramelChocolate

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    What is matha tek? I do really think this forum should have a glossary of terms explained.
     
  8. drkhalsa

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    matha tek is the way sikh bow down in gurudwara in front of guru ji literally maatha is forehead and tek is touching it to something.
     
  9. muslim

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    lol so you only prostrate before god when you are at the guduwara and not any other times? During the day a muslim will have to prostrate around 50 times.
     
  10. sikh Engineer

    sikh Engineer India
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    so wat if you prostrate around 50 times a day
     
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  11. Rana

    Rana
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    It is hard fact that Sikhism wasinnovated by Guru Nanak on the basis of Islam and Hinduism as shown by following Reference: www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/sikhism

    “Guru Nanak (1469-1539) was one of the greatest religious innovators of all time and the founder of the Sikh religion. Guru Nanak's religious ideas draw on both Hindu and Islamic thought.

    Faith:

    · There is only one God
    · God is without form, or gender
    · Everyone has direct access to God
    · Everyone is equal before God
    · A good life is lived as part of a community, by living honestly and caring for others
    · Empty religious rituals and superstitions have no value

    Life attributes:

    Sikhs try to avoid the five vices that make people self-centred, and build barriers against God in their lives.
    · Lust
    · Covetousness and greed
    · Attachment to things of this world
    · Anger
    · Pride
    If a person can overcome these vices they are on the road to liberation”

    The above facts clearly show that most of the faith and Life attributes in Sikhism are same as in Islam. For example faith part is exactly same as in Islam which is absent in Hinduism. The fact is that in religion we cannot just chose and reject on the bases of our worldly inaccurate understandings and just invent a new religion BUT need a divine book and a prophet.

    Being Sikh you cannot even say that Quran is wrong (Astagfirullh) as by the following:

    "Say not that the Vedas and Muslim books are false. False is he, who reflects not on them." (Bhagat Kabir, Parbhati, pg. 1350)

    The Sri Guru Granth Sahib contains several scripts from SEVEN Muslim saints including Baba Farid Shakarganj. It only proves that Guru Nanak has no objection to these saints’ faith or religion. Sikhism is commonly understood as a compromise between the teachings of Hinduism and Islam. But a careful study of Sikh traditions and relics of Sikhism lead to an irrefutable conclusion that Guru Nanak discarded the Hindu doctrines and assimilated the teachings of Islam to such an extent that Sikhism, in its pristine form, can be looked upon as a sect of Islam. It looks like that the later Gurus departed away from Islam due to some political reasons and hostility towards Mughals.

    I would like to mention here that most of the websites about Sikhism show lack of knowledge about Islam and Muslims like on www.Sikhworld.co.uk it quotes from Quran but with a very wrong translation like under:
    “Your wives are a filth for you, so go into your filth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves; and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers. (Quran, 2: 223)
    Explanation on the sikhworld: Also in the Ayeh it says that women are dirt for men, and men can go into their dirt or mud anyway they want and then it talks about Allah and the fact that people will see him, and then says give good news to believers. What is the good news that he has to give to the believers? Could the good news be the clause “your wives are filth for you”. So men can abuse women as they want?
    Whereas the correct word must be tilth (field rich/good for cultivations of seeds) NOT filth and I don’t think there is any English translation out there which translate Arabic word “harth” into filth as it give totally wrong meaning. To compare wife to a tilth is very logical as from both we get new productions. It is source of to him. He sows seeds in order to reap the harvest but he chooses his own time and mode of cultivation. He does not sows out of season not cultivates in a manner which will injure or exhausts the soil.
    It is quoted on the same website on the other place as under:
    “Your wives are as a field unto you, So approach your field When or how ye will.” (Holy Quran 2:223)
    “Those who swear that they will not go in to their wives should wait four months; so if they go back, then Allah is surely Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran, 2: 226)”
    Expalanation on the sikhworld“Does this mean that if a man got angry at his wife, he should not sleep with her for four months and if he does sleep with her in those months then Allah will forgive him ? For what ? Why is it the business of Allah if a husband or wife sleep with each other or not?”
    Here you just gone out of proportion by saying rude words to Allah swt. You think its not Allah’s business whatever we do in this life ? No no!! we must be obedient to and servant of Allah swt in each and every moment of our life. This verse actually is some sort of favor for the women to protect their rights. Historically, Arabs used to swear not to meet their wives but were still keeping them bond not letting them go. Allah is requiring that you cannot do that for more than 4 months. You should go back to them to meet and live in good manner again by 4 months but if things don’t work at all then divorce is the second option.
    The same website prove a big ignorance about Islam by claiming that Muslims women cannot enter Mecca as “Guru Ji chose Mecca because it is the holy place for Muslims and every Muslim to connected to Mecca so what better place to preach to Muslims than Mecca. But there was a problem; Mecca is open only to Muslims males. Not even Muslim women can enter Mecca”
    The same website describes the visit of Guru Nanak to Mecca as under:
    “Bhai Gurdas Ji (a much respected Sikh), depicts these incidents in one of His books which shows that Guru Ji got into Mecca and preached the truth.
    Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca. He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress. Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrims (hajis) had gathered. When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba, the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy. Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda. Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving. All got surprised and they all bowed. (Bhai Gurdas Ji, Var 1, page 1)
    Qazi and maulvis got together and began discussing religion. A great fantasy has been created and no one could understand its mystery. They asked Baba Nanak to open and search in his book whether Hindu is great or the Muslim. Baba replied to the pilgrim hajis that, without good deeds both will have to weep and wail. Only by being a Hindu or a Muslim one can not get accepted in the court of the Lord. (Bhai Gurdas Ji, Var 1, page 1)
    Guru Ji preached the truth and by listening to Him Muslims treated Him as their Pir (Holy Saint). Muslims believed God spoke through Guru Nanak Dev Ji. When he was about to leave, Muslims asked Him to leave something of His behind. So he left his slippers which the priest kept inside Mecca that time. When the priest retired he took it with him back to his home and his family still has this slipper. This is how much respect the Muslims had and have for Guru Nanak Sahib Ji”
    Now think about these illogical claims that Qazi and maulvis asked Guru Nanak if Hindus are great or Muslims ???? very very funny ??? Those Qazis had doubt that Hindus may be better than Muslim ? Why they should ask Guru Nanak as according to the website he pretended as a Muslim to enter Mecca. Therefore, it is totally baseless to say that a Muslim priest or Qazi/Shiekh is not firm and confident about his faith’s truth ??? Everybody knows that those sorts of people are so much concerned and selective that they even not accepting other sects in the Islam itself, how come they think that Hindus may be better than us ????
    We know that in Mecca we cannot even think of anything like that even any picture etc of any prophet/king/sheikh of any level. How come a priest put slippers of Guru Nanak there ???? It sounds like a very disrespectful fabrication.
    Another Sikhism website www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak_in_Mecca said while Guru Nanak was in Mecca One of them (Hajjis) said to the Guru, ‘Holy Sir, give me something which will always remind me of you.’ The Guru gave him his pair of sandals. They were respectfully kept in the Kaaba for some time. That Muslim fakir then returned to India. He brought the sandals with him. He kept them in his temple at Uch in Bahawalpur, now in Pakistan” The point is could a Muslim fakir can put shoes of anybody in inside Kaaba for blessing? If yes how could he be free to take home and put in his temple (not mosque/mizar/tomb)?
    The Muslims don’t believe that Allah lives in Mecca’s black stone or in the Middle-East etc but fact is, his manifestation is everywhere and He encompasses all things. In other words ”Allah existed eternally & there weren’t any places created & after He created all the places, He is now as He was without a place”
    The websitewww.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak_in_Mecca claimed that “Guru Nanak went to Mecca in blue attire worn by Hajjis” and he looked like a typical hajji. All along, he acted in every way as hajjis did. Bhai Mardana, a Muslim, was with him he also dressed as a hajji”but the picture shows Guru Nanak, Bala (Hindu companion) and Mradana (Muslim companion) all having turbines too but, as a matter of fact Hajjis only wear Ihraam (2 white sheets) and cannot have turban etc while performing Umrah/Hajj inside the Kaaba area.
     
  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Rana ji

    First of all welcome to the SPN forum!

    It will take many days and many replies to address each of the issues you have raised in your lengthy response to sikh_engineer ji. The details of your post contain many misunderstandings of the Sikh religion -- and these are misunderstandings that unfortunately have spread throughout the Internet.

    But I want to comment right now on your first claim. You said, "It is hard fact that Sikhism wasinnovated by Guru Nanak on the basis of Islam and Hinduism as shown by following Reference: www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/sikhism"

    I searched through the BBC pages that are connected to the link that you posted above. Here is what I found,

    The Sikh faith began around 1500 CE, when Guru Nanak began teaching a faith that was quite distinct from Hinduism and Islam.

    Under Origins of Sikhism at the subpage BBC - Religions - Sikhism: Origins of Sikhism


    It contradicts your opening comment. :confused: Which BTW is fundamentally wrong.

    So in follow-up responses we need to explore many other false claims that you have posted so far.
     
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  13. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    I will be logging off soon as it is the early morning hour here. Time for bed. Perhaps a new understanding will emerge from further conversations.
     
  14. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh
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    Don't be surprised by this falsehood Narayanjot ji, deception and treachery are the basic Islamic traits on, which followers of this religion have thrived over the centuries... things are turning around... :happysingh:
     
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  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    I will make an effort, Aman ji -- and then there is the story of the scorpion and the frog.
     
  16. Rana

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    Narayanjot Kaur Ji, with due respect I only said "Sikhism wasinnovated by Guru Nanak on the basis of Islam and Hinduism"which is from the website not from me. Offcourse Sikhism was started as a distinct (new) religion. It was going away from Islam more and more after the 9 Gurus put their contributions in the passage of time. By the I liked these forums where every body can express freely about the facts and it is only upto the readers to accept ot reject whereas no personal or political gains etc is sorted as no one know me and I don't other members but only sharing the knowledge. It will all be critical when we depart from this biased world. "Lag samaj jao ge jadon akhiyan metan giyan" By for now
     
  17. spnadmin

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    My reply to you of yesterday appears to have disappeared during out scheduled maintenance. I have made it perfectly clear that your lengthy post is contradicted by the BBC online link. One has only to read the sections linked to the main site to see how distorted your words are. SPN members are not fools. I am surprised that you think they are as you continue to press your point in the face of contradiction.
     
  18. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    I very distinctly remember having replied to the post of Rana ji above.It has disappeared during the last day of maintenance.

    Nonetheless, it is to re-iterate that we all come here to share something.
    Sikhs believe in Truth only and talk of Truth and search for Truth.
    It is the Truth that they seek and in the truth that they merge in.

    This is the only place/forum that one could post so much against Sikhi.Hats off to the members who read your posts and replied patiently. Hats off to the Admin. of the site who permitted this free-wheeling on this forum that has no Truth. Improve your research so that it is closer to the Truth.
     
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  19. Rana

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    Taranjeet singh ji you claimed that "Sikhs believe in Truth only and talk of Truth and search for Truth. It is the Truth that they seek and in the truth that they merge in" I love that claim ! and wish if you could prove by the behaviour on this forum too. I think these sort of forums are just like courts where every lawyer presents his sides of evidences and logics and the chief justice evaluate those facts. One lawyer cannot just say, my lord he/she is wrong and should be stoped talking etc but has to prove by cross refrences/evidences logics that I am true and other part is wrong. Therefore, other members here are suppose to jugg both sides. Some organiser of this forum just start with labeling Islam with deception and treachery etc. It doesn't work like that. Try to listen other people's notion of truth and debate in a friendly and civilised way to prove yours, nothing else !

    Comments undermining Sikhism have been deleted. Naryanjot Kaur
     
  20. spnadmin

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    A forum is not a court of law. Be serious, rana ji. So far you have not dealt with the "truth" that if a Sikh logged into Muslim forum and carried on the way you are carrying on, he/she would be booted out in a flash! So stop whining.
     
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  21. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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