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Is 'Wah-e-Guru' The Name Of God?

Lee

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May 17, 2005
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Oh yeah right, I forgot your 'gopal' means 'gurupal' bit or word jugglery. 'Gopal' means one who 'paals' 'go.' 'Paal' means to 'take care.' 'Go' means 'cow,' or 'mother earth.' So, 'Gopal' would mean... 'one who takes care of cows or one who takes care of the world.' These are the standard Sanskrit meanings.

'Naam' means holy name of the Supreme. Therefore, it may be understood to be a specific name, and not a generic one or an imagined one or a concocted one. Naam is given great stress in the SGGS. It is unfortunate that even after so much stress is laid on this one fact, we have gone and manufactured one in foundries of Ludhiana.


Please my friend stop with this language of disrespect. I asked when I mentioned Gopal and Gurpal to be corrected if I am wrong.

You see there is no 'word jugglery' from me, only open and honest questing for the truth, you must see by my name that I have no connection to the Punjab and so must expect my knowledge of the language to be inferior.

Naam as I understand it does not only equate to name, but has other meanings too, perhaps that is the basis for this misunderstanding?

I understand Naam to also mean sound, or word, or utterance. Again, if I am incorrect here perhaps one of our more learned members can correct me.


Are you going to answer the rest of my questions?
 

Tejwant Singh

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akalpurkh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:
Naam' means holy name of the Supreme.

1.Would you be kind enough to describe what NAAM is in lay man's terms?

2.How does one attain,get, receive NAAM once its definition is established?

3.Who/ what is Supreme?

4.What do you mean by "HOLY NAME of the Supreme"? Your implication indicates that there is also an unholy name. What is it?

Thanks and hope to learn from your insights.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

spnadmin

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Oh yeah right, I forgot your 'gopal' means 'gurupal' bit or word jugglery. 'Gopal' means one who 'paals' 'go.' 'Paal' means to 'take care.' 'Go' means 'cow,' or 'mother earth.' So, 'Gopal' would mean... 'one who takes care of cows or one who takes care of the world.' These are the standard Sanskrit meanings.

'Naam' means holy name of the Supreme. Therefore, it may be understood to be a specific name, and not a generic one or an imagined one or a concocted one. Naam is given great stress in the SGGS. It is unfortunate that even after so much stress is laid on this one fact, we have gone and manufactured one in foundries of Ludhiana.


Now a word of warning before I log off to go to work! Gopal and Gopi come from the same root. No question that Gopal is referring back to Vedantic references. In fact it is a reference to "cows" - but in the most concrete sense. An un-nuanced transposition from Sanskrit syllables to a giaan of SGGS is a transposition trapped in literality.

I hope this reference from Sant Ravidas illustrates my point,

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਕਾ ਭਉ ਗਇਆ ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥
janam maran kaa bho gaeiaa bhaao bhagath gopaal ||
The fear of death and rebirth is removed by performing loving devotional service to the Lord of the World.

SGGS refers to "the wish-fulfilling cow" but neither a Vedic scholar nor a scholar of Gurbani would say that God is literally a Cow. I am going to leave for the time being with that thought. When I return -- if the level of interpretation does not rise to something higher, then it may turn out that I or another mod or admin will decide that Guru Granth is being undermined and action may be needed.

Something to consider. Try to draw on your capacity to understand metaphor. This is the moment for discriminating intellect.

ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਸਬਲ ਨਿਬਲ ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੁਧਿ ਪਰਮਾਰਥ ਪਰਵੇਸ ਨਹੀ ॥੨॥
eindhree sabal nibal bibaek budhh paramaarathh paravaes nehee ||2||
Our passions are strong, and our discriminating intellect is weak; we have no access to the supreme objective. ||2||


ਕਹੀਅਤ ਆਨ ਅਚਰੀਅਤ ਅਨ ਕਛੁ ਸਮਝ ਨ ਪਰੈ ਅਪਰ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
keheeath aan achareeath an kashh samajh n parai apar maaeiaa ||
We say one thing, and do something else; entangled in endless Maya, we do not understand anything.


ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਉਦਾਸ ਦਾਸ ਮਤਿ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕੋਪੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਜੀਅ ਦਇਆ ॥੩॥੩॥
kehi ravidhaas oudhaas dhaas math parehar kop karahu jeea dhaeiaa ||3||3||
Says Ravi Daas, Your slave, O Lord, I am disillusioned and detached; please, spare me Your anger, and have mercy on my soul. ||3||3||


ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਸੁਰਤਰ ਚਿੰਤਾਮਨਿ ਕਾਮਧੇਨੁ ਬਸਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ॥
sukh saagar surathar chinthaaman kaamadhhaen bas jaa kae ||
He is the ocean of peace; the miraculous tree of life, the wish-fulfilling jewel, and the Kaamadhayna, the cow which fulfills all desires, all are in His power.
 

akalpurkh

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You say: [These problems arise when we are misguided by transliterations. The English language has many alternate ways to make the same sound, unlike Gurmukhi which has far fewer. So Wah e Guru will not necessarily seem to be in Gurbani, but in fact is using an alternate phonetic strategy. Whether one is successful in one's search depends on the transliteration system being employed. There are around 3 that are standard (Professor Thind has authored more than one). Search engines do not use a single transliteration scheme. So linguistic confusion can be misleading.]

I say: This is not correct; most of us here can read SGGS in Gurbani. At any rate, I see no point in this argument, for I see no ambiguity with regards to the name in the SGGS. There are countless instances in the SGGS wherein the actual names of the Supreme Lord, such as 'Gopal, Ram, Hari, Mohan, Thakur (generic but specifically referring to Krishna)' etc., are mentioned. I really don't need a Thind 'who has authored more than one book' to sort this out for me. Nor, indeed should you.
 

spnadmin

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akaalpurakh ji

You can say This Is Not Correct until the cows come home :D Not only are your own facts completely off, but you are taking a very literal-minded view of the topic and perhaps not realizing that you are winding people up.

Bye for now.
 

akalpurkh

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Don't you worry about me dear. I know exactly where I am going. Can you follow? That is the real question.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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These are the two most discussed upon from the Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas ji

2. Vaar 11 Pauri 3 Line 4 Who may be called a Sikh of the Guru
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਚੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ।
satiguru purakh daiaalu hoi vaahiguroo sachu mantr sunaaiaa|

3. Vaar 11 Pauri 8 Line 8 Love of the gurmukhs
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਡੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥੮॥
vaahiguroo vadee vadiaaee ॥8॥

Vaheguru occurs many times in the SGGS...on Page 1402 it occurs numerous times in the way it is commonly written..waheguru.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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GOPAL..is simply COWHERD..Caretaker of Cows..and this image is alos used in the Bible.as Jesus is SHEPHERD..herder of SHEEP. Indians venerated the COW..so GOPAL..herds His cows..we also ahve the Ellysian COW...that grants all wishes etc etc.
Ram is one who is Ramiah hoiah..in everything..etc etc all "KIRTAM NAMES" mean something...are ADJECTIVES.
HUMANS CANNOT Give a "NAME" to the CREATOR..just as a Child cannot Name his father..only the Father can Name his child...BUT HUMANS have always tried to eb smarter..hence all these Names..whcih are essentially ADJECTIVES describing soem attribute of the Creator....
 

spnadmin

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Don't you worry about me dear. I know exactly where I am going. Can you follow? That is the real question.


akaalpurakh ji

Yes -- I have a theory about where you are headed. And as I have said previously -- we have been down that road before. ;)

I would like to return to 3 things you have said where common sense are not aligned with the facts.


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1. You say that The term Wah-e-Guru does not appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib (SGGS). I repeat, IT DOES NOT OCCUR IN THE GRANTH SAHIB EVEN ONCE!! Its current use as a generic name for the Supreme Lord is a recent phenomenon and has no precedence in the SGGS. (quoted material)

I next pointed out to you that both Bhagat Gayanand and Bhai Gurdas have used the term. In the transliterated version we can see it is in just this one example (There are several others in this thread):

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.


You then reply that you have no need of transliterations.
You say: "This is not correct; most of us here can read SGGS in Gurbani. At any rate, I see no point in this argument, for I see no ambiguity with regards to the name in the SGGS. There are countless instances in the SGGS wherein the actual names of the Supreme Lord, such as 'Gopal, Ram, Hari, Mohan, Thakur (generic but specifically referring to Krishna)' etc., are mentioned. I really don't need a Thind 'who has authored more than one book' to sort this out for me. Nor, indeed should you." (quoted material)
Now please tell me what this says! In Gurmukhi! Since you don't need transliterations!
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ
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2. My next concern is based in amazement. Let's go back to your statement as follows:

"I really don't need a Thind 'who has authored more than one book' to sort this out for me. Nor, indeed should you."

In Sikhi - seva is a pre-eminent obligation. And in transliterating the words of the Gurus, Professor Thind is a sevadhar both to the panth and to
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ He is making the Shabad Guru accessible to a host of Punjabi speakers who cannot read Gurmukhi but can connect their phonetic understanding to the Gurus' meaning. Professor Thind devised fonts, transliterations, shabads for printing, and we reap the fruit of his deep linguistic knowledge. He never took a cent for his work. His wife and children continue his legacy.

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3. Guru and Gopal:
W
hat is there to say about that?
Sanskrit more than even Punjabi is a language in which meaning is contextualized. So the meaning of any word depends on the context of use. Three major contexts: poetic, liturgical, ordinary language. That is why the major dictionaries give so many meanings, and that is why translators rely on them for contextual applications. This is basic stuff.

3.a The translation of Guru from the Monier Williams Dictionary. Which choice makes sense? In a liturgical or a poetic context? The one in bold red font...a spiritual parent or preceptor...makes more sense than heavy in the stomach, or "heavy" as you claim when you analyze the word "guru."

Guru
गुरु
(H1) गुरु[SIZE=-1] [p= [URL="http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/monier/serveimg.pl?file=/scans/MWScan/MWScanjpg/mw0359-gupta.jpg"]359[/URL],2][/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [L=65987][/SIZE] mf(वी)n. ([SIZE=-1]cf.[/SIZE] गिर्/इ ; [SIZE=-1]comp.[/SIZE]ग्/अरीयस् , once °यस्-तर , गुरु-तर , superl. गरिष्ठ , गुरुतम » [SIZE=-1]ss.vv.[/SIZE]) heavy , weighty (opposed to लघ्/उ) [SIZE=-1] RV. i , 39 , 3 and iv , 5 , 6[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] AV. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] &c [/SIZE] ([SIZE=-1]g.[/SIZE]शौण्डा*दि [SIZE=-1] Gan2ar. 101[/SIZE]) [SIZE=-1] [L=65988][/SIZE] heavy in the stomach (food) , difficult to digest [SIZE=-1] MBh. i , 3334[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Sus3r. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [L=65989][/SIZE] great , large , extended , long [SIZE=-1] Ya1jn5. ??[/SIZE] (» -क्रतु) [SIZE=-1] Bhartr2. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] &c [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [L=65990][/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Pra1t. [/SIZE] (a vowel long both by nature and by position is called गरीयस् [SIZE=-1] RPra1t. xviii , 20[/SIZE]) [SIZE=-1] Pa1n2. 1-4 , 11 and 12[/SIZE] (in prosody) long by nature or position (a vowel) [SIZE=-1] [L=65991][/SIZE] high in degree , vehement , violent , excessive , difficult , hard [SIZE=-1] RV. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] MBh. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] &c [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [L=65992][/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Megh. 80[/SIZE] grievous [SIZE=-1] [L=65993][/SIZE] important , serious , momentous [SIZE=-1] MBh. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] &c [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [L=65994][/SIZE] valuable , highly prized [SIZE=-1] Ya1jn5. ?? ii , 30[/SIZE]गुरु = गरीयस्) [SIZE=-1] &c [/SIZE] ( [SIZE=-1] [L=65995][/SIZE] haughty , proud (speech) [SIZE=-1] Pan5cat. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [L=65996][/SIZE] venerable , respectable (H1B) गुरु[SIZE=-1] [L=65997][/SIZE] m. any venerable or respectable person (father , mother , or any relative older than one's self) [SIZE=-1] Gobh. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] S3a1n3khGr2. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Mn. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] &c [/SIZE] (H1B)गुरु[SIZE=-1] [L=65998][/SIZE] m. a spiritual parent or preceptor (from whom a youth receives the initiatory मन्त्र or prayer , who instructs him in the शास्त्रs and conducts the necessary ceremonies up to that of investiture which is performed by the आचार्य [SIZE=-1]Ya1jn5. ?? i ,[/SIZE] 34) RPra1t. A1s3vGr2. Pa1rGr2. Mn. &c (H1B) गुरु [L=65999] m. the chief of (gen. or in comp.) Ca1n2. Ragh. ii , 68 (H1B) गुरु [L=66000] m. (with शाक्तs) author of a मन्त्र (H1B) गुरु [L=66001] m. " preceptor of the gods " , बृहस्पति Mn. xi (H1B) गुरु [L=66002] m. (hence) the planet Jupiter Jyot. VarBr2S. Bhartr2. &c (H1B) गुरु [L=66003] m. " पाण्डु-teacher " , द्रोण L. (H1B) गुरु [L=66004] m. प्रभा-कर (celebrated teacher of the मीमांसा , usually mentioned with कुमारिल) SS3am2kar. vi , 50 ; xv , 157 (H1B) गुरु [L=66005] m. (=धर्म) " venerable " , the 9th astrological mansion VarBr2S. i ,

I hope no one chooses the planet Jupiter just to be clever. And it is wrong to pick the meaning that is going to favor a personal theory you are about to spring on us! :rolleyes:

3.b. Gopal, from the Cologne Digital Sanskrit Dictionary. the Sanskrit word to search on is Gopa

gopa m. (= %{-pA4} s.v. %{go4}) a cowherd , herdsman , milkman (considered as a man of mixed caste Para1s3.) Mn. viii MBh. (ifc. f. %{A} , i , 3213) Hariv. &c. ; a protector , guardian RV. x , 61 , 10 Ta1n2d2yaBr. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. ; the superintendent of several villages , head of a district L. ; a king L. ; `" chief herdsman "' , Kr2ishn2a MBh. ii , 1438 ; a particular class of plants BhP. xii , 8 , 21 ; = %{-rasa} L. ; N. of a Gandharva (cf. %{go-pati}) R. ii , 91 , 44 ; of a Buddh. Arhat W. ;

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The translation that I favor is the one that is consistent with the Shabad itself.
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ is our protector, our guardian, the one who herds us to safety. Akaal is the Nourisher and Supporter is referred to with the name Gopal, and by analogy to Krishna.
And that too is the meaning of Sant Ravidas when he says.
ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਸੁਰਤਰ ਚਿੰਤਾਮਨਿ ਕਾਮਧੇਨੁ ਬਸਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ॥
sukh saagar surathar chinthaaman kaamadhhaen bas jaa kae ||
He is the ocean of peace; the miraculous tree of life, the wish-fulfilling jewel, and the Kaamadhayna, the
cow which fulfills all desires, all are in His power.

When one part of Gurbani echos other parts in the way words are used, that is how you know the meaning.


 
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akalpurkh

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Narayanjot Kaur ji you indeed are an ocean of convoluted arguments; you seem to have taken a PhD in it! No matter, if you would kindly present these snake like argument to me one by one, I will gladly chop them to bits with concrete arguments based on the scriptural evidence. I would consider this a great service to the Guru and the community for I am now convinced that American Sikhs are a bane to our community. We initially accepted you because we were simple-minded and praised the guru for showing his mercy across the oceans, but it has now become increasingly clear to us that your intentions are questionable. You have corrupted Sikhism beyond recognition.

If you really have the guts, stand and fight rather than threaten to exercise your role as moderator and remove or isolate me from this forum. This is an open challenge. Let the world see how much of a Sikh--a warrior--you really are. Bring it on dearest, but kindly observe the rule of logic. No devious moves, bluffs or shabby subterfuges will be permitted. And, yes, please note, the SGGS (extending to its obvious Vedic source books) are the authorities. Not your Thind with his dubious PhD.
 

spnadmin

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Narayanjot Kaur ji you indeed are an ocean of convoluted arguments; you seem to have taken a PhD in it!

What is convoluted and I will try to simplify it?:yes:

No matter, if you would kindly present these snake like argument to me one by one, I will gladly chop them to bits with concrete arguments based on the scriptural evidence. I would consider this a great service to the Guru and the community for I am now convinced that American Sikhs are a bane to our community. We initially accepted you because we were simple-minded and praised the guru for showing his mercy across the oceans,

Sounds as if more than one of us has bothered you ji? What did other white Sikhs say that have shown themselves not to be simple minded? :)

but it has now become increasingly clear to us that your intentions are questionable. You have corrupted Sikhism beyond recognition.

If you really have the guts, stand and fight rather than threaten to exercise your role as moderator and remove or isolate me from this forum.

See above.

This is an open challenge. Let the world see how much of a Sikh--a warrior--you really are. Bring it on dearest, but kindly observe the rule of logic. No devious moves, bluffs or shabby subterfuges will be permitted.
And, yes, please note, the SGGS (extending to its obvious Vedic source books) are the authorities. Not your Thind with his dubious PhD.


I think your theory is slowly emerging. That is why I am concerned. We may have to move parts of this thread to the Interfaith dialogs section if I am correct.
:)
 

seeker3k

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This is very serious topic and mostly misunderstood.
This writing is not for the SPN administrators. I already know what they are going say.
Nanak’s philosophy is based on Hinduism. All he did was taken out the stupid rituals. We Sikhs are allergic to any thing come from Hinduism.
Whaheguru word is in SGGS. It was recited by Bhatts not by any Gurus or by any other bhagats.

The name what all are talking about is not name it is naam. Naam can be said as shabad,manter,bani gian dhun. There can be many names for this naam. In the bible it is said: in the beginning there was WORD, the WORD was with God and God was WORD. Nanak emphasized on naam more then any one. And other guru also said with out naam there is no salvation. This naam is the blessing of guru. One can make his own word but will not work because it has to be given by guru. Not just any guru, the guru has to be real. There are many gurus but only few are real guru.

The word used in moolmanter satnam does not mean true. True is sash not sat. Sat is what that is everlasting. As we Sikhs claiming the first symbol of the moolmanter ekong kar. It was just ek aum. This Hindu philosophy. All Hindus say aum before they start any thing. It was also the manter is used to do mediation. Only the Brahman can meditated on aum. Lower cast were forbidden to use aum. This is where Nanak said all humans are same and the naam should be the same for every human. The whole writing in the sggs is to glorify the Naam. Acording to Hindus and Nanak it is not just recite aum. It is the sound that aum produce when it is recited in cretin way. That way should be learned from guru. It is strange Than Nanak praised naam yet he never told us what is that naam. We have to wait for the bhatts to recite it then we started to use it. Mostly it was Gobind Singh used it when he said Waheguru ji ka Khals Wahe guru ji ke fate, That became Singhism. This it lot different from Sikhism.

It is this naam when guru give it to us that can lead one to salvation by the sound of it. We should not ask for this naam. The guru will give it by his own. When we ask for any thing it become begging (bhiksha) When guru give it by himself then it become blessing (daan). By meditating on this naam if one chose to then he can go to brahma. Who is considerd to be creator. That is why we call some pakhandi brahmgiani. Brahmgiani is one who has merged in brahma. If he is merged in brahma how can he be living? He is also called brahm puter (son of brahma) God. This is what Jesus was trying to tell his followers. No one can go to my father accept through son of god brahputer. In Hinduism to reach brahma only through guru. There are two ways one can get the salvation. One is by meditation which is very long process. Other is get the naam from guru.
How can we know who is real guru or not? If there are the guru ask his chela to do the rituals to please brhama then that guru is fake. All this guru want is you to keep coming to him. He is the only one who can solve our problems. Don’t forget we creat our own problem and then we pray or go to guru to solve it. Haha. If one tell chela no ritual no meditation do nothing. But do no harm to others then at the time of his death the naam will protect his soul he will get salvation. We can not get out of ritiuals we are conditioned by fake religions. We can not get any thing with out doing some puja or. It is not what we do after we get the naam it is what we do before we get the naam. If we are not ready and not worthy to receive naam the guru will not appear to him. Real guru is not in the body it is the naam. That what Nanak told the sidhs. That my guru is naam dhun sound.

If one accept A religion he have to do the rituals. He can not refuse it. He can not get what Nanak said. No one been able to tell me what is the naam. Many people say it is all what is ion SGGS. Many of new generation can not read SGGS. So there is no hope for them? It is not reading SGGS or Geta or Bible it is put it in prectis. We want the easy way. Most Sikhs believe that will go to heaven because they have acceped SGGS as their guru. And they know with out guru one can not go to heaven.
Were there real people as brahma,vishu, shivji? No they were not real people. Hinduism was not a religion to begin with. It was theory of science. People of that time did not understand the science so they started to worship brahma vishu shivji and made their idols and worship.
There have been many religions in mankind and many have gone into winds.Many more will go as the science will be taught all over.

What are we getting salvation from? Some say from rebirth. Are they right? What those do not believe in rebirth? That mean they are all have the salvation? In reality it is our maan we need salvation from. What ever we do is of from our maan. When we accept guru we are doing so from the maan. Did the guru accept us as his chela. Any thing we do out of maan can not lead us to salvation. What we see and what we hear and what we feel touch. Create our thoughts. It is thought that is controlling us. We react out of our maan. There is a way to control one’s thoughts. Most people think thoughts can not be controlled.

seeker
 

simran_kaur

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Nov 13, 2009
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seeker3k said, "This writing is not for the SPN administrators. I already know what they are going say."

I agree completely. The SPN should not intervene or try to stop this discussion. The person (akalpurkh) appears to have something of importance to say.


Seeker3k said. "Nanak’s philosophy is based on Hinduism. All he did was taken out the stupid rituals. We Sikhs are allergic to any thing come from Hinduism."

Here again I agree completely. Perhaps it is time we curbed this aversion and tried to get to the root of the matter.

This is all I have to say. :happykaur:
 

Admin

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Indeed! its time we curbed the aversion... its time for some more housekeeping!! akalpurakh thank you for showing your true colors, simran kaur is your multiple id and You are Banned!! :welcome:
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
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This is very serious topic and mostly misunderstood.
This writing is not for the SPN administrators. I already know what they are going say.
Nanak’s philosophy is based on Hinduism. All he did was taken out the stupid rituals. We Sikhs are allergic to any thing come from Hinduism.
Whaheguru word is in SGGS. It was recited by Bhatts not by any Gurus or by any other bhagats.

The name what all are talking about is not name it is naam. Naam can be said as shabad,manter,bani gian dhun. There can be many names for this naam. In the bible it is said: in the beginning there was WORD, the WORD was with God and God was WORD. Nanak emphasized on naam more then any one. And other guru also said with out naam there is no salvation. This naam is the blessing of guru. One can make his own word but will not work because it has to be given by guru. Not just any guru, the guru has to be real. There are many gurus but only few are real guru.

The word used in moolmanter satnam does not mean true. True is sash not sat. Sat is what that is everlasting. As we Sikhs claiming the first symbol of the moolmanter ekong kar. It was just ek aum. This Hindu philosophy. All Hindus say aum before they start any thing. It was also the manter is used to do mediation. Only the Brahman can meditated on aum. Lower cast were forbidden to use aum. This is where Nanak said all humans are same and the naam should be the same for every human. The whole writing in the sggs is to glorify the Naam. Acording to Hindus and Nanak it is not just recite aum. It is the sound that aum produce when it is recited in cretin way. That way should be learned from guru. It is strange Than Nanak praised naam yet he never told us what is that naam. We have to wait for the bhatts to recite it then we started to use it. Mostly it was Gobind Singh used it when he said Waheguru ji ka Khals Wahe guru ji ke fate, That became Singhism. This it lot different from Sikhism.

It is this naam when guru give it to us that can lead one to salvation by the sound of it. We should not ask for this naam. The guru will give it by his own. When we ask for any thing it become begging (bhiksha) When guru give it by himself then it become blessing (daan). By meditating on this naam if one chose to then he can go to brahma. Who is considerd to be creator. That is why we call some pakhandi brahmgiani. Brahmgiani is one who has merged in brahma. If he is merged in brahma how can he be living? He is also called brahm puter (son of brahma) God. This is what Jesus was trying to tell his followers. No one can go to my father accept through son of god brahputer. In Hinduism to reach brahma only through guru. There are two ways one can get the salvation. One is by meditation which is very long process. Other is get the naam from guru.
How can we know who is real guru or not? If there are the guru ask his chela to do the rituals to please brhama then that guru is fake. All this guru want is you to keep coming to him. He is the only one who can solve our problems. Don’t forget we creat our own problem and then we pray or go to guru to solve it. Haha. If one tell chela no ritual no meditation do nothing. But do no harm to others then at the time of his death the naam will protect his soul he will get salvation. We can not get out of ritiuals we are conditioned by fake religions. We can not get any thing with out doing some puja or. It is not what we do after we get the naam it is what we do before we get the naam. If we are not ready and not worthy to receive naam the guru will not appear to him. Real guru is not in the body it is the naam. That what Nanak told the sidhs. That my guru is naam dhun sound.

If one accept A religion he have to do the rituals. He can not refuse it. He can not get what Nanak said. No one been able to tell me what is the naam. Many people say it is all what is ion SGGS. Many of new generation can not read SGGS. So there is no hope for them? It is not reading SGGS or Geta or Bible it is put it in prectis. We want the easy way. Most Sikhs believe that will go to heaven because they have acceped SGGS as their guru. And they know with out guru one can not go to heaven.
Were there real people as brahma,vishu, shivji? No they were not real people. Hinduism was not a religion to begin with. It was theory of science. People of that time did not understand the science so they started to worship brahma vishu shivji and made their idols and worship.
There have been many religions in mankind and many have gone into winds.Many more will go as the science will be taught all over.

What are we getting salvation from? Some say from rebirth. Are they right? What those do not believe in rebirth? That mean they are all have the salvation? In reality it is our maan we need salvation from. What ever we do is of from our maan. When we accept guru we are doing so from the maan. Did the guru accept us as his chela. Any thing we do out of maan can not lead us to salvation. What we see and what we hear and what we feel touch. Create our thoughts. It is thought that is controlling us. We react out of our maan. There is a way to control one’s thoughts. Most people think thoughts can not be controlled.

seeker

seeker3k ji

So far the SPN administration has banned someone for posting under a dual identity. That is called forum management. Enforcing the rules.

So far nothing has been deleted or modified in any way. In fact -- an error on my part was pointed out by Gyani ji and I have fixed it. That is called behaving like a mature adult. As far as your idea that SPN administration might "ruin" things -- I have to chuckle. Because disrespect to Professor Thind and his work has been expressed by a poster, now banned. And, a misreading of Sanskrit has been pointed out. Not to mention the fact that a completely fabulous claim has been made that Waheguru does not appear anywhere in SGGS.

SPN administration has to intervene when that kind of blatant commentary takes place -- especially when there is a clear agenda to undermine the Bani of the Gurus by slipping in that same old argument that we read too often -- Sikhs are reconstituted Hindus and SGGS is reconstituted Vedanta. That is wrong. That is the kind of argument put forward by collusion to demoralize Sikhs.

You are personally entitled to your own opinion above. But here is something else to consider. Unless you are a member of a sect, maybe one of the sanatan sampardayas or maybe one of the break-away sects that follow Sant Mat, there is no guru/chela arrangement in Sikhism. I mean -- how many times is it necessary to repeat this simple fact? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj ji is the Guru Granth. And in addition.

"He who keeps alight the unquenchable torch of truth, and never swerves from the thought of One God; he who has full love and confidence in God and does not put his faith, even by mistake, in fasting or the graves of Muslim saints, Hindu crematoriums, or Jogis places of sepulchre; he who recognises the One God and no pilgrimages, alms-giving, non-destruction of life, penances, or austerities; and in whose heart the light of the Perfect One shines, - he is to be recognised as a pure member of the Khalsa" (Guru Gobind Singh, 33 Swaiyyas)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
Writer
SPNer
Jul 14, 2007
4,576
1,609
REHAT


vaahiguroo nith bachan ouchaarae || vaahiguroo ko hiradhai dhhaarai ||
He repeats the True Name of 'Vaheguru' daily. He enshrines Vaheguru in his heart.
Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh
 

jazlim

<strong><font color="red">Banned for Shamelessly U
Nov 13, 2009
1
1
Narayanjot Kaur ji,
Your justification of banning Akalpurkh and censuring another senior member for more or less supporting Akalpurkh point of view is unprofessional. Perhaps you forget that this is a community forum and that you are curtailing the rights of the Sikhs, who you claim to represent, to a lively debate on a topic of grave importance to them.

You might want your Sikhism entirely divorced from its Sanatan dharmic roots. But then again, you cannot deny the truth. There is a substantial amount of borrowing from the Vedic Literature in the SGGS. However, there is no shame in it as you seem to make out. On the contrary, it is a prerequisite. Peer-reviewing is an important part of Indian spiritualism. We want it that way, for then the chance of being led astray is minimized. This is the system. Indeed, if you truly have a PhD, as it claims in your profile, then you should know that not a line may be said with it being peer-reviewed by pervious authorities.

However, you are right. Sikhism is different from Hinduism. And we know that! The Hindus follow the varna-ashram system, worship countless demigods, and so on. For you kind information, Sikhism is a vibrant and legitimate prong of the Bhakti Movement that took place in India in the 14-15th century. Sri Guru Nanak Devji is considered one of the foremost teachers of this reform movement.

The underlying reformation thread that connected all of the prongs was their stress on bhakti, and on taking the naam. All of the prongs also rejected the caste or varna-ashram system. The Vaishnavas, under the leadership of Chaitanya, which forms another prong, too has rejected the varna-ashram system. Individual saints such as Meera bai, Tukaram, etc., too are counted as catalyst or reform teachers who made meaningful contribution to the sub-continental spiritual reform movement.

It is thus that Sikhism is different from Hinduism. You do not need to create artificial divide by speculatively misinterpreting the SGGS! Indeed, who gave you the authority to do this?

Also, for you kind information, the various prongs, shared common teachers. The prominent Indian saint by the name of Jayadeva was one of them. For you kind information, the baani (original verses) of Jayadeva in enshrined the SGGS. For us Indians whose spiritualism demands rigorous peer-reviewing, and would rather have a bona fide School of Thought to monitor our spiritualism, having a Jayadeva on our board is a matter of great pride to us!

But what indeed would you know of all this fine tradition?

Madamji, I seriously think that you are unfit as a moderator for this forum. Please don't take offense. But I request the other moderators to view this heavy-handed moderation of a philosophical discussion with the express view to safe guard speculative ideologies as a grave breech of trust of the community.
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
Writer
SPNer
Jul 14, 2007
4,576
1,609
This is the full Rehat Nama in Amrit Kirtan page 1014

ran mae jaae n kabehoo(n) bhaajai ||
dhrirr kar shhathree dhharam lo gaajai ||
shasathreheen eih kabehoo(n) n hoee ||
rehithava(n)th khaalas hai soee ||
rehith behith n kabehoo(n) thiaagai ||
sanamukh larai n ran thae bhaagai ||
kut(h)aa hukaa charas thamaakoo ||
gaa(n)jaa ttopee thaarree khaakoo ||
ein kee our n kabehoo dhaekai ||
rehithava(n)th so si(n)gh visaekhai ||
vaahiguroo nith bachan ouchaarae ||
vaahiguroo ko hiradhai dhhaarai ||
aagae aavath si(n)gh j pavai ||
vaahiguroo kee fathae bulaavai ||
ka(n)ghaa dhono vakath kar paag chunai kar baa(n)dhhee ||
dhaathan neeth karaee naa dhukh paavai laal jee ||
t(h)a(n)ddae paanee jo nehi nhaavai bin jap parrhae prasaadh j khaavai ||
bin rehiraas samaa(n) jo khovai keerathan parrhae binaa jo sovai ||
chugalee kar jo kaaj bigaarai dhhrig this janam j dhharam bisaarai ||
praathakaal sathasa(n)g n jaavai thanakhaahadhaar veh vaddaa kehaavai ||
sathasa(n)g jaae kar chth ddulaavai har yas sunathae baath chalaavai ||
niradhhan dhaekh n paas behaavai so thanakhaahee mool kehaavai ||
kathhaa keerathan man nehi laavai sa(n)th sikh ko buraa alaavai ||
ni(n)dhaa jooaa hirai j maal mehaa(n) dhukhaavai this ko kaal ||
gurasikh rehith sunahu hae meeth parabhaathae out(h) kar hith cheeth ||
vaahiguroo gur ma(n)thr s jaap kar eisanaan parrhai jap jaap ||
sa(n)dhhiaa samai(n) sunai rehiraas keerathan kathhaa sunai har yaas ||
ein mai nae j eaek karaae so sikh amaraapuree mehi jaae ||
dhuhoo gra(n)thh mae baanee joee chun chun ka(n)t(h) karae nith soee ||
rehithavaan gur sikh hai joee kar oupaae dhhan khaattai soee ||
thaahee(n) kar ghar ko nirabehai poojaa bhool n kabehoo gehai ||
jo koee si(n)gh pujaaree ahai so bhee poojaa bahuth n gehai ||
than nirabaah maathr so laevai adhhik hoe tha jehi(n) kehi(n) dhaevai ||
dhas nakh kar jo kaar kamaavai thaa(n) kar jo dhhan ghar mai aavai ||
this thae gur dhasaa(n)adhh jo dhaeee si(n)gh suyas bahu jag mehi loee ||
golak raakhai naahi jo shhal kaa karai vapaar ||
kehai gobi(n)dh si(n)gh laal jee bogai narak hazaar ||
dhasava(n)dhh guroo nehi dhaevee jhoot(h) bol jo khaae ||
kehai gobi(n)dh si(n)gh laal jee this kaa kashh n bisaah ||
jo prasaadh shhakanae lagae haathh suchaeth karaee ||
eaekaakee behi khaahi nehi avaran ko bhee dhaee ||
aap si(n)gh jo raajaa hoee niradhhan si(n)ghan paalai soee ||
paradhaesee si(n)ghan jab dhaekhai oun kee saevaa karae bisaekhai ||
madhhur bachan sabehin ko bhaakhai chaakar si(n)ghan ko hee raakhai ||
si(n)gh si(n)gh so naeh s karano vair bhaav man thae pareharano ||
dhhan keerath sukh raaj baddaaee ||
yuvathee suth vidhiaa bahu bhaaee ||
eae sabh dhaath guroo kee jaanai ||
thaa(n) thae nehi abhimaanehi t(h)aanai ||
aradhaas binaa(n) jo kaaj sidhhaavai bhaett keeeae bin kashh mukh paavai ||
thiaagee vasath grehin jo karai bin thria apanee saej j dhharai ||
athithh dhaekh nehi dhaevai dhaan so nehi paavai dharagehi maan ||
maal athithh kaa bal kar shhalai ||
jap thap thaa(n) ko kashh nehi falai ||
dhasamee aadh guroo dhin jaethae purab samaan kehae hai(n) thaethae ||
thin mae(n) kashh parasaadh banaavai kar karraah khhaalasae khuaavai ||
karraah karan kee bidhh sun leejai theen bhaag ko samasar keejai ||
laepan aagai bahukar dheejai maa(n)jan kar bhaa(n)jan dhhoveejai ||
kar eisanaan pavithr hvai behai vaahiguroo bin avar n kehai ||
kar thiaag chaakee par dhharai chaar our keerathan behi karai ||
jo prasaadh ko baa(n)tt hai man mae dhhaarae lobh ||
kis thhorraa kis agalaa sadhaa rehai this sog ||
lagae dhivaan mool n jaavai rehith binaa prasaadh brathaavai ||
sooaa pehir leae nasavaar gobi(n)dh si(n)gh hoe s khavaar ||
maa(n)e bhain jo aavai sa(n)gith dhrishatt buree dhaekhae this pa(n)gath ||
si(n)kh hoe jo karae karodhh ka(n)niaa mool n dhaevai sodhh ||
dhheea bhain kaa paisaa khaae gobi(n)dh si(n)gh dhhaakae yam laae ||
vaahiguroo bin kehae j paavai vaeshaa dhavaarae sikh j jaavae ||
par eisathree sio naeh lagaavai gobi(n)dh si(n)gh veh sikh n bhaavae ||
par baettee ko baettee jaanai ||
par eisathree ko maath bakhaanai ||
apanee eisathree so rath hoee ||
rehithavaan gur kaa si(n)gh soee ||
paranaaree jooaa asaath choree madhiraa jaan
paa(n)ch aib yae jagath mo thajai s si(n)gh sujaan ||
khhalak khhaalik kee jaan kai khhalak dhukhaavai naahi
khhalak dhukhai jo na(n)dh jee khhaalik kopai thaahi ||
jagath maa(n)hi hai pa(n)thh s jaethae karai ni(n)dh nehi kabehoo(n) thaethae ||
namar subhaav n kabehoo(n) thiaagae ||
dhurajan dhaekh dhoor thae bhaagae ||
dhurajan kee sa(n)gath sukh naahee(n) ||
kar bichaar dhaekho man maahee(n) ||
vinay bibaek dhharam dhrirr raakhai mithhiaa bachan n kabehoo bhaakhai ||
karai bachan jo paalai naahee(n) gobi(n)dh si(n)gh this t(h)aar n aahee ||
vaadtee lae kar niaae n kareeeae ||
jhoot(h)ee saakhaa kabehoo(n) n bhareeeae ||
guroo saroop khhaalasaa heeeae ||
jaa(n) kee ttehil param sukh leheeeae ||
jae kurehitheeeae jag dharasaavath paahul peee kukaram kamaavath ||
thin so(n) varathan naahi(n) milaavai rehi niralaep param sukh paavai ||
sa(n)niaasee bairaagee jaevai aar oudhaasee yogee thaevai
ja(n)gam vaamee avar j koee thaa(n) kaa joot(h)aa kabee n laeee ||
 

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