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Is There Any 'Choice' in God's Creation?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by akal_jsingh, Apr 28, 2009.

  1. akal_jsingh

    akal_jsingh
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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Consider the following: There are two sets of people.

    Set 1 = those trying to reach God (whichever faith, through whichever ways, and good ways + very strictly speaking very good Sikhs which we would call Gurmukhs).

    The other set (set 2) being people either ignorant of the need to pursue God or having willingly decided to lead a non-pursuit of God existence.

    The first set.. will in our religion act acc. to Sikhi acc. as per the individual's realisation/ perception.

    The 2nd set, will.. today or tomorrow... this birth or the next... by love or by troubles... will.. feel a need.. and thereby slowly and slowly a... movement towards God.

    SO... both sets move towards God. Set 1 moving better.

    The way of Set 1 is also a tough way. Its not a straight sailing. 'Sikhi Waalon Neeki, Khandeon Teekhi' - Guru Amardas.

    My ques: Where in this whole equation is the sould being asked if it wants to play this game / or give this examination = God = destination... ?

    Someone like me says... I never wanted to play it.. ?

    What am I doing here... ? Where am I stuck.... ?

    Dear Sangatji....some light please.

    Best regards

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
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  3. Amarpal

    Amarpal
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    Dear akal_jsingh Ji,

    I am not answering your mail following the contours of your post, but in my own way. I am going to share with you my response to your basic question of your post.

    ‘Is There Any 'Choice' in God's Creation?

    Creation has choices, plenty of them. ‘The Sat’ has not fixed us in a fixed frozen matrix. We are the instrument of ‘The Sat’, the guardians of the creation of ‘The Sat’.

    ‘The Sat’ has given us all the sense organs - Gyanendriyas, the mental faculties in the functioning brain and the organs to act - Karmendriyas. What else is needed, the application of all these to advance the will of ‘The Sat’.

    What is the will of ‘The Sat’ – it is perpetual evolution is all the fields that in the creation of ‘The Sat’. The proof is right in front of you. From the insentient material grew the primitive life form, from these primitive life form grew plant and animal kingdoms. Humans evolved progressively to meet the challenges that life made them face, from an animal walking on four limbs we evolved to walk on two limbs. After the need of physical form were perfected humans developed the capabilities of the brain, we all know that the frontal cortex of the brain is relatively recent addition to brain. The process of development and evolution is continuing and will continue in future also.

    Nothing of this sort would have happened unless ‘The Sat’ wanted it to be so. Development and evolution implies protection and preservation of what is already achieved. Putting these together the will of ‘The Sat’ is protection, preservation, evolution and development.

    We humans being on the top of entities constituting the creation of ‘The Sat’ have all the freedom to select among the options available, including the option of not participating in the will of ‘The Sat’. You and I have absolute freedom of choice in the creation of ‘The Sat’; sky is the limit for you and me. This is so because we know that ‘The Sat’ is within us and our body is only an instrument of ‘The Sat’. What we do, ‘The Sat’ guides us; it never interferes with our freedom to chose and act. We invite interference through our Karmas, and thus get limited.

    Through thoughts we are connected to ‘The Sat’ and thus to the entire creation. When we understand the mechanics of this linkage then we acquire the capability to draw from the entire resources of the creation i.e. from ‘The Sat.

    It is my considered view and now a conviction that there is no limit to our mental capabilities. The limitations come from our physical capabilities and interferences come from our Karmas.

    Our freedom to choose is unlimited. But because of being limited physically we cannot select all the option at one time or in one life. Because the Karmic cycle impacts on us and causes difficulties, we cannot achieve the results instantaneously, it takes time.

    With this I close the post.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
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  4. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
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    Amarpal Singh ji

    beautiful and very inspiring post !
     
  5. Amarpal

    Amarpal
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    amarsanghera Ji,

    Thank you for your kind observation. I pary that 'The Sat' sustains me so that i remain useful to Sangat.

    With love and redards

    Amarpal Singh
     
  6. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Amarpal ji

    Guru Fateh.

    Well said. Simple, concise and to the point.

    Thank you

    Tejwant Singh
     
  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    akal_j Singh ji,

    Guru fateh.

    Interesting thinking.

    Allow me to take it to another angle. There are many more sets of people than just two but let us just discuss the two you have mentioned.

    By saying, " those trying to reach God", I presume you mean those who are trying to breed goodness within so they can share it with others. Goodness bred within is a light- Gyan- that does not have a spigot that one can open or shut at will. It just flows and flows. The more it flows the more it is produced within, kinetically.

    For this to happen we need a catalyst within which can transform this energy towards this positive direction.

    As we read in Mool Manter that Ik Ong Kaar is Ajuni Sahibung- Creative Energy unlike a deity as in almost all other religions. Because Ik Ong Kaar is Creative Energy, Sikhi was founded as the Idea based way of life rather than personality based dogmatic relgions which created their own rules and fenced themselves behind these dogmatic walls using their subjective rules as the bricks and mortar. That is the reason all these personality based dogmatic religions had to evolved in the life span of the founder, unlike Sikhi.

    It took this Sikhi Idea way of life 200 some years to evolve. When idea of breeding goodness within is expanded like this then the personalities, in this case our Gurus, play part as mere instruments in this Orchestra of Ik Ong Kaar. The proof of this is in the SGGS where Gurbani is compiled by people from many walks of life, with different social status and castes, even different relgions. That is why SGGS is a very unique Symphony. This Symphony written in a poetic and musical manner moves us from the within. Music ( which unfortunately is forbidden in the radical minded Islamists like Taliban), breaks our self constructed walls. Music frees our self encaged birds within. Music makes us burst out of our own bubbles and shatters our own cocoons. In a nutshell, music gives us freedom.

    Now let us talk about the lyrics- Gurbani- this music is based on. After having freed from our own shackles through this musical Gurbani, it then inspires, motivates, encourages us to be honest and truthful, incidentally the second word in SGGS- SatNam.

    So once we have realised this then we do not have to " try to reach God", We are already dwelling in this " Magical Kingdom" where the journey itself becomes the destination.

    .

    People in the first set become magnets which naturally attract people of all other sets. Our history is the proof. That is why people from all different sets flocked towards our Gurus.

    In closing, I would just like to say that if we use the tools given to us by our Gurus in SGGS, then we can enlarge this set of ours, so all become capable of breeding goodness within.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  8. wizesikh

    wizesikh
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    We all live in god and god lives in us, but sect 1 discovers god and sect 2 either discovers god or never discovers him in all eternity. japji Sahib further clarifies it.

    God has given you not one choice but hundreds and thousands and millions of choices.
    and on top of that he has given you the choice to pick the choice that you wish.
    Lines in Japji sahib make it clear; infinit run away from god, infinit run towards god, infinit remain confused, infinit remain in silent..infinit remain in ignorance, infinit see him everyday.. infinit die while trying to reach him.. deda deh ledhe thak pa, juga jugantar khai kha, he gives us choices over and over and over again.

    The question is not wheather there is a choice or not, the question is which choice and path would do you feel you can stick to for eternity. hukmi hukam chul rahea nanak vigsai veparva.
     
  9. Amarpal

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    Thank you Tejwant Ji,

    With love and respect

    Amarpal Singh
     
  10. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    ਮਾਟੀ ਕੋ ਪੁਤਰਾ ਕੈਸੇ ਨਚਤੁ ਹੈ
    माटी को पुतरा कैसे नचतु है ॥
    Mātī ko puṯrā kaise nacẖaṯ hai.
    How does the puppet of clay dance?

    ਦੇਖੈ ਦੇਖੈ ਸੁਨੈ ਬੋਲੈ ਦਉਰਿਓ ਫਿਰਤੁ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    देखै देखै सुनै बोलै दउरिओ फिरतु है ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Ḏekẖai ḏekẖai sunai bolai ḏa▫ori▫o firaṯ hai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    He looks and listens, hears and speaks, and runs around. ||1||Pause||

    ਜਬ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਬ ਗਰਬੁ ਕਰਤੁ ਹੈ
    जब कछु पावै तब गरबु करतु है ॥
    Jab kacẖẖ pāvai ṯab garab karaṯ hai.
    When he acquires something, he is inflated with ego.

    ਮਾਇਆ ਗਈ ਤਬ ਰੋਵਨੁ ਲਗਤੁ ਹੈ ॥੧॥
    माइआ गई तब रोवनु लगतु है ॥१॥
    Mā▫i▫ā ga▫ī ṯab rovan lagaṯ hai. ||1||
    But when his wealth is gone, then he cries and bewails. ||1||

    ਮਨ ਬਚ ਕ੍ਰਮ ਰਸ ਕਸਹਿ ਲੁਭਾਨਾ
    मन बच क्रम रस कसहि लुभाना ॥
    Man bacẖ karam ras kasėh lubẖānā.
    In thought, word and deed, he is attached to the sweet and tangy flavors.

    ਬਿਨਸਿ ਗਇਆ ਜਾਇ ਕਹੂੰ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥੨॥
    बिनसि गइआ जाइ कहूं समाना ॥२॥
    Binas ga▫i▫ā jā▫e kahū▫aʼn samānā. ||2||
    When he dies, no one knows where he has gone. ||2||

    ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਬਾਜੀ ਜਗੁ ਭਾਈ
    कहि रविदास बाजी जगु भाई ॥
    Kahi Raviḏās bājī jag bẖā▫ī.
    Says Ravi Daas, the world is just a dramatic play, O Siblings of Destiny.

    ਬਾਜੀਗਰ ਸਉ ਮਹਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥੩॥੬॥
    बाजीगर सउ मोहि प्रीति बनि आई ॥३॥६॥
    Bājīgar sa▫o mohi parīṯ ban ā▫ī. ||3||6||
    I have enshrined love for the Lord, the star of the show. ||3||6||

    Ang 487
     
    #9 Astroboy, Apr 30, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  11. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Well you're not alone. Count me in. I often ponder on the duality aspect which is the real drama playing before ourselves, the real us. There is proof in this statement because I know I am not this physical body.

    The physical body can be in a state of sickness or in health but my inner self never changes. It is always the same.

    Feelings which constantly run up and down the emotional meter, too are not my real self. They can excrete biological chemical within this physical body during states of happiness and sadness, causing changes in facial expressions and wetting the tear ducts. But I still stand away from this unfolding drama, watching it silently play its episode, like watching a movie.

    My mind is not me too. It is a sensitive instrument; an info processor which contributes to my worldly existence. It is not me because sometimes it refuses to obey me. Therefore, it cannot be me.

    I am beyond the mind, emotions and this physical body. I am a spectator of this drama.
     
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  12. Rupinder.Singh

    Rupinder.Singh Australia
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    I dont know whether my thoughts fit into the question being asked here. But I still want to express my views on this topic.

    In my opinion that the very basic approach adopted by most of the human race to realize GOD is wrong. Human race beleives that a person born in Sikh family is sikh, a person born in Muslim family is muslim and a person born in a Christian family is a Christian. And if we dare to have a GOD's view of our whole world it is divided into these religions. When I say divided, I mean to say they are all trying to prove supermacy of one over another. Whereas GOD wanted us to be together like different colored flowers in a same bouquet.

    Here fits the idea expressed by 'wizesikh'

    "God has given you not one choice but hundreds and thousands and millions of choices.
    And on top of that he has given you the choice to pick one you wish."

    God has blessed us with the choices to be flower of one of those colors. God has blessed us with the ablity to chose the color we want, but as said by 'wizesikh' he has also given us the choice to pick the choice we wish.

    But we are rather giving no chance to new born individuals to decide at their own to pick, to use their own intellectual to decide which color (religion) they want to follow and why.

    Other problem with human race is that when they compare their religion to other religions most of them follow the below mentioned approach:

    when
    Talking about other religion they say: others follow this ritual, others do this even in these days of scientific realization, others do this.. others do that."


    When talking about their own religion they say: " we are told to follow the righteous way , we are not allowed to follow rituals, we are told to think rationally"


    The very point that i wanted to riase is that the very basic method to compare is wrong.

    "We are comparing what otheres do with what we are told to do"

    whereas the right comparison can only be drawn if we compare on these terms

    " what others do and what we actually do"

    And when we compare on these terms we will easily find that we are comparing apples with bananas..we are comparing what others do as a normal human being to what we will do as a true human being.

    But question is are we all true human being yet so that we are capable enough to appropriately compare two things?

    I believe that a true Human being wont find any diffrence among all the religions.

    We all have to reach that state. God wanted us to be develop our consiousness and intellectual to that level.

    Now when we say there are two sets of SIKHS (set 1 and set 2) we are basically subdividing our religion furhter (Dear akal_jsingh ji, no ofence please). we are subdividing them as people who are GURmukh and people who are on their way to being Gurmukh.

    My question to you all is

    " Is a child born in a Gursikh family, a gursikh from birth or a sikh from birth?"
    "Does he become gursikh if he/she is baptised at an age of 5"

    I belive becoming a True Gursikh is a life long process, and it is not tough in any way. It is a path where he/she faces ups and downs of the life and thus develops his/her intellectual to identify the right path in his/her own consciousness. And a 5 yr old who has not seen his/her life yet how can he be a gursikh then? ( here I am talking about an average newborn).

    Merely dressing him/her like a gursikh is just very worldly.

    How can be the children of a Gursikh, gursikhs just after they are baptised at a young age, whereas there parents spent thier lives understanding what being true gursikh is and then got baptised.


    A basic understanding of this fact may be able to help us understand 'Akal_jsingh ji's question" in a better way..If we think on above lines we can easily dissove the line sperating these two sets and rather start looking it as two colors dissolving into each other showing a oneness in its entirty. what a beautiful color it would be.
    It is a color where one color is by nature attracted towards the color of a gursikh.

    And now the answer to the question:

    What I am doing here..
    We are all here to develop our consiousness to a level thorugh our life experience to be able to talk to the true GOD, understand his intentions of this world.

    Where am I stuck..

    We are stuck no where.. it is just that we are not moving towards our target..

    Is GOD=destination

    No, GOD is not just at destination. God is everywhere, right from the start till the end of our life..listening to everything, watching our each action, He is just watching what chioce we pick on. Start your journey and you will start realizing him yourself.

    "oh Disda hai koi shak nahi..sadi dekhan wali akh nahi"
     
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  13. jasi

    jasi
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    Wahe Guru Ji Khalsa and whaeguru Ji ki Fateh.


    Dear writer.

    The people who are blessed with inner realizatuins of themselves can realizes the God right in your breath or heart but not byany organized relegions rules and dresses or look . This is the essence of teaching by Sri Guru Nanak deve Ji to jap Waheguru with every breath in order to realizes one day ,the presence in your heart and soul the feeling that Almoght who has seat next you heart.

    All the rest Guru Saheb Ji taught us to have no ritual and mediator to help us pray. All sikh can pray direct to God.

    Fundamental issue on which the main concern Guru Nanak Dev Ji issued that we are all one humen being regardless of any cast system.

    BUt we all are practicing the same cast system and call our self sikh of Guru Saheb Ji.

    To me that is disgrace to ourselves and complete lie.


    Jaspi
     
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