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Christianity Is the bible trust worthy ?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Kairos, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. Kairos

    Kairos
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    Biblical texts and links to evangelistic sties have been deleted.

    We have enough evidence that the Bible is trust worthy :

    http://www.faithfacts.org/search-for-truth/maps

    Manuscript Evidence

    "Astounding" number of ancient manuscripts extant: 5,000 Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin and 9,000 other--totaling over 24,000 manuscript copies or portions of the New Testament. These are dated from 100 to 300 years after the originals. (There are no original manuscripts ["autographs"] extant, but the number and similarity of copies allows scholars to reconstruct the originals.)

    Archaeological Evidence

    The New Testament mentions specific individuals, places, and various official titles of local authorities, confirmed by recent archeology. Luke sites exact titles of officials. (Titles varied from city to city so they are easily checked for accuracy.) Lysanias the Tetrarch in Abilene (Luke 3:1)—verified by inscription dated 14-29 A.D. Erastus, city treasurer of Corinth (Romans 16:23)—verified by pavement inscription. Gallio—proconsul of Achaia (Greece) in A.D. 51 (Acts 18:12). Politarchs ("city ruler") in Thessalonica (Acts 17:6). Chief Man of the Island on Malta (Acts 28:7). Stone Pavement at Pilate's headquarters (John 19:13)—discovered recently. Pool at Bethesda— discovered in 1888. Many examples of silver shrines to Artemis found (Acts 19:28). Inscription confirms the title of the city as "Temple Warden of Artemis". Account of Paul's sea voyage in Acts is "one of the most instructive documents for the knowledge of ancient seamanship."


    Prophetic Evidence

    2,000 prophecies including some 300 prophecies and implications about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
    There are no prophetic failures.
    While there are both obvious and subtle prophecies, most are very detailed and specific.
    No other religion has specific, repeated, and unfailing fulfillment of predictions many years in advance of contingent events over which the predictor had no control.
    Studies of psychics show only around 8% of their predictions come true and virtually all of these can be attributed to chance and a general knowledge of circumstances.
    Mathematicians have calculated the odds of Jesus fulfilling only 8 of the Messianic prophecies as 1 out of 1017 (a 1 followed by 17 zeros). This is equivalent to covering the entire state of Texas with silver dollars 2 feet deep, marking one of them, mixing them all up and having a blind-folded person select the marked one at random the first time. For more on this, see What Are The Odds?
    Fulfilled prophecy is powerful evidence that the Bible is divine rather than human in origin.

    Statistical Evidence

    The Bible contains 66 books, written by approximately 40 different writers, over 1600 years, on 3 different continents, in 3 different languages, on thousands of different subjects, yet with one central theme—God's redemption of mankind from sin won for the whole world by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    Let's begin this thread with some guidelines for discussion. Sikh Philosophy Network is a Sikh forum, not an interfaith forum. If the guidelines are not followed then the thread will be closed.

    Keep in mind that SPN permits comparative discussion of religions and interfaith dialog. SPN TOS do not permit efforts to convert individuals to another faith by proselytizing. To be blunt, the forum is not a place where members of other religions are free to preach tenets of their faith to the mass Internet audience.

    The following types of content in posts/replies will be edited or deleted, or the thread may be closed.
    1. Teaching by openly pursuing the "Great Commission of Jesus" as stated in the Gospel of Matthew: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
    2. Linking to sites whose mission is evangelism or proselytizing, without stating that that is the site mission, and misleading readers into thinking that the linked site explains rather than preaches.
    3. Preaching or offering sermons to SPN members and/or using SPN threads to preach to the mass Internet audience, with the objective of spreading "good news" i.e., salvation through the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth proclaimed to be the Son of God.
    4. Promoting similar messages through private messaging.
    5. Witnessing - Using passages from the Hebrew or Christian testaments for purposes of saving members of other faiths.
    6. Preaching with the intent of promoting one's own religion.

    Keep in mind that Sikhs do not actively attempt to convert others to Sikhism. Therefore, when a member of another faith carries out any activity such as teaching or preaching, evangelizing or witnessing it can be particularly annoying to Sikhs.

    Moderators or admin may delete any message without notice if he/she believes that proselytizing has occurred.
     
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    #2 spnadmin, Aug 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2010
  4. Seeker9

    Seeker9 United Kingdom
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    Dear Kairos Ji

    I must commend you on your tenacity as I can see this is your third attempt at this sort of thread

    Perhaps you would do me the courtesy of replying to my post which I have posted twice on your other two threads and a third time here

    In order to answer your question, I would say not entirely and my reasons for that view are in the post below.....here goes again..third time lucky perhaps....
    ===================================================
    My Dear Kairos Ji

    I can see nothing further to debate as we have been going in circles on that thread. (For benefit of those reading this thread, that thread was titled "Why is Sikhism the true religion")

    Here's one of my posts from that thread to which you have yet to respond:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kairos (Why is Sikhism the True Religion?)
    the apostle Peter said :

    “ Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”


    i believe, God provided the precise thought to the human author, and he then wrote it down in terms of his own vocabulary, culture, education, and writing style.


    http://www.allabouttruth.org/who-wrote-the-bible.htm

    I see you have returned to quotes and hyperlinks

    In this case, an out of context quote to backup a feeble hypothesis

    And where's the holy spirit in all this, which you elaborated on in a recent post about the Gospel of John?

    So let me help you out here...from God to scripture perhaps this is what happens:

    God tells the Holy Spirit
    The Holy spirit tells the human
    The human, despite being graced with divine knowledge still chooses to put his own spin on things

    All this happens (sometimes decades) after the events (strange how God did not think it appropriate to inspire, despatch the Holy Spirit at the time the events occurred)
    and voila, we have the Scriptures

    Over time, entire texts are removed, only to be found again centuries later and they appear to offer a different view from the "official" Bible

    What complete and utter RUBBISH!
     
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  5. Seeker9

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    I don't get the significance of this. What statistics are you referring to? As for God's redemption of mankind... clearly this involves a wrathful vengeful God presiding over mass raping of women and murdering of babies.....if you don't mind..I think I'll give it a miss...
    winkingmunda
     
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    #4 Seeker9, Aug 10, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2010
  6. Lee

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    Kaios ji,

    Bearing in mind Narayanjot's warning, yes there is some evidance that some contents of the Bible can be said to be trustworthy, but let me give you my reasoning so that you can understand my viewpoint. Not exclusivly on the Christian Bible but all which we would deem holy scripture.

    It is my belife that there is one God, who created the creation and set in motion all of the rules which we may term scientific laws. God is also a loving God, so any dogma which I find contradicts the idea of a loving God I simply cannot see as coming for the mouth of God(for want of a better expresion).

    It is obviouse that humanity differs from location to location, that culture and our differing cultures play a huge part in shaping who we are as individuals and citersens of which ever country we find ourselves born in.

    Some of these differances are great, some not so, but differances there are. In the way we think , in our POV's in our concepts of manners and morality. This must I think you'll agree all be acording to Gods plan.


    Assumption:

    So either we must belive that God has choosen a specific 'race' to 'save' of that God has given all of humanity the chance to reach God.

    I firmly belive the latter.

    If this is true then why would God give only one way? If theer are multitudes of differant kinds of people, of mindset, then I believe a loving God would create many ways for the whole of humanity to reach God.

    In Sikhi it is considered as a mark of respect that one covers the head in a place of worship, this is extended to wherever Gods presenace is. God is prevalant throughout the creation and so Sikhs keep their heads covered at all times. Yet in my English culture it is considered impolite to cover the head when in a place of worship, we remove our hats before stepping into a church.

    Both of these are really little more than cultural mores. Which one then is correct for they both can't be right? Or can they?

    Yes I would say both are correct, I don't really belive that God minds the head covered or uncovered the important part is respect. Whatever then is a valid show of respect in your cultureis what God asks of you.

    We can see then that some dogma is either misunderstood, not the word of God or has been deemed more important than it should be.

    All written words are open to many interpretaions, and so the chance of misunderstanding or improper interpretations is I think high.
     
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  7. gurbanicd

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    "mere man har upar kijey bharwasa"

    Without going in detail of this topic This is a topic which I think should not be discussed at all

    "Saanjh karijey gunah keri"

    If we trust Guru Granth Sahib ji our Guru then
    IS there any quote in gurbani to discuss this.

    Naam bina Sabh Koor gaali hochian"

    "Bhulan chukan di khima"
     
  8. spnadmin

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    gurbanicd ji

    I understand your concern and you are not the only individual to express such a view. However Sikh Philosophy Network from its beginning was open to interfaith debates and discussions of other scriptures. SPN was not designated for discussion of gurbani only. This thread is posted in Interfaith Dialogs/Christianity, where it should be located. Our hope was to provide a platform for a serious approach to comparative religions. Sometimes we succeed very well and the result is learning on both sides. Other times it is more difficult.
     
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  9. gurbanicd

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    Kaurji

    Dhanvaadji

    I may be wrong and perhaps I have not come across some shabad of Gurbani where Sikh and Sikh philosophy should discuss other religions.
    Apology once again
     
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  10. spnadmin

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    gurbanicd ji

    That is OK. No problems whatsoever. Discussing other religions is permitted per the SRM. Veneration of other scriptures is not permitted. But that is a discussion for a different thread. Our willingness to permit discussion often leads to troublesome situations which often make me think we should be hardliners and not permit it at all. But that is my failing as a human being.
     
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  11. BhagatSingh

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    • Like Like x 2
    #10 BhagatSingh, Aug 12, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2010
  12. Seeker9

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    love the smileys ! going to save those
     
  13. Tejwant Singh

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    Gurbanicd ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I beg to differ with you. Gurbani talks about both Hindu and Islamic mythology. Sidh ghost is one of them. Parables like Prahalad and many more are in the SGGS, our only Guru.

    Gurbani is the best tool box for comparative religious studies and the prevalent religions at that time were Hinduism and Islam in India and it also does mention the other two Semitic religions a bit.

    Namjap ji can help you find the right Shabads. He is the best in this.


    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  14. gurbanicd

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    Gurfatehji

    Baba aakhey hajia subh amla bajhon doven roi
    Baba replied to the pilgrim hajis, that, without good deeds both will have to weep and wail.
    ********************

    Aval Allah noor upaaeiaa kudrat ke sab bandey ||
    Ek noor te sab jag upajaiaa koun bhalae ko mande ?
    logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||
    khaalik khalak.. khalak mehi khaalik poor rahiou srab thaii....

    Shabad from Sant Kabeer starts here.

    First, Allah created the Light;
    then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
    From the One Light, the entire universe welled up.
    So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||

    O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.
    The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation,
    totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

    The clay is the same,
    but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.
    There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay
    - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||

    The One True Lord abides in all;
    by His making, everything is made.
    Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command,
    knows the One Lord.
    He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||

    The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen.
    The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.
    Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away;
    I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||


    Ang 1349/1350 and thanks for fixing it. Narayanjot Kaur

    Bhulan chukan di Khima
     
    #13 gurbanicd, Aug 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2010
  15. BhagatSingh

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    Gurbanicd ji, is that quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib? I am unable to find it on Srigranth.org
     
  16. gurbanicd

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    gur fateh ji

    varan bhai gurdas ji


    Link removed


    bhulan chukan di khima

    This is not taking us where we need to go. Please post the vaar and ang number for the vaar, to include the English because the transliterations are not helpful.Use a common search engine, such as srigranth.org.
    Please don't post from the Sikhnet media center. Thanks Naryanjot Kaur
     
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  17. spnadmin

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    Bhagat ji

    These appear to be tuks from different shabads threaded together to form a single composition

    For example,

    ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸਾਜਨਹਾਰੈ ॥
    maattee eaek anaek bhaanth kar saajee saajanehaarai ||
    The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.

    This one is from Ang 1350, and the other 3 are from different shabads.

    The other thing needed is for the poster to always make a connection between the discussion and the shabad.

    So I have deleted the other 3 tuks. YOu can post them gurbancd ji again, but the entire shabad is needed with you understanding.


    But you have made an excellent observation. We need entire shabads and Ang numbers to draw conclusions. So gurbanicd ji, Please repost the relevant shabads with Ang humbers.


    Also, Bhagatji When you search transliterations chances are you are not going to find what you are looking for. They are too variable, especially when compared to spoken PUnjabi transliterations.
     
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  18. gurbanicd

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    <?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p> </o:p>
    puCn gl eImwn dI kwzI mulW iekTy hoeI] (1-33-1)
    vfw sWg vrqwieAw lK n sky kudriq koeI] (1-33-2)
    puCx Kol ikqwb nUM vfw ihMdU kI muslmwnoeI] (1-33-3)
    bwbw AwKy hwzIAW SuB AmlW bwJo dovyN roeI] (1-33-4)
    ihMdU muslmwn doie drgih AMdr lYx n FoeI] (1-33-5)
    kcw rMg kusuMB kw pwxI DoqY iQr n rhoeI] (1-33-6)
    krn bKIlI Awp ivc rwm rhIm kuQwie KloeI] (1-33-7)
    rwh SYqwnI dunIAw goeI ]óó] (1-33-8)

    No one can read these fonts!
     
    #17 gurbanicd, Aug 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015

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