Christianity Is The Bible Misunderstood By Christians?

[futurekaur]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

NamJapJi; you are wise, don't even read the rest of this post. It is too upsetting. I'm doing it to enlighten others but I don't like to linger on Christianity...I will go now to the thread you mentioned. Thank you.

AntoniaJi, CarolineJi;
the Josephus text is widely recognized as a forgery by most scholars .
Because no Ancient Jews recognized or wrote about this Jesus, Christians had to make it up: most scholars recognize that the testimony of Josephus called the 'Testimonium Flavianus' is a forgery : read here from the site of the University of Pennsylvania, a reconstruction:
Testimonium Flavianum
and here are ancient Jewish accounts of Jesus: very insulting
Ancient Jewish Accounts of Jesus

Read here about the infamous Edgardo Mortara case: a Jewish child stolen from his parents by the Pope Pius IX in 1859. Not very long ago. Mortara died in 1940.
Edgardo Mortara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And CarolineJi here is an stub from a scholarly article from 'Studia Hebraica'
'Christian Anti-Judaism and the Holocaust"
CEEOL Studia Hebraica , Issue 4 /2004
"The essential First Cause of anti-Semitism is, as professor Robert Michael said, the distaste for, or hatred of, what has made Jews Jewish, i.e., Judaism. In order for Christianity to establish its own sense of self, its legitimacy, its sanctity, it had to crush the theological dominance of Judaism."
And lastly Here is a link to Professor Robert Michael's book:
"Holy Hatred: Christianity, Anti-Semitism and the
Holocaust"
read about it over at Amazon:
Amazon.com: Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust: Robert Michael: Books

A scholar's review :
“If anyone still remains ignorant of the Christian origins of anti-Semitism—ancient and modern—and its contribution to the Holocaust, his book will remedy that bliss: clearly, and in comprehensive detail.”—Richard Elliott Sherwin, Professor, Bar-Ilan University

and here is Prof. Michael's CV: UMass Dartmouth - Department of History - Dr. Robert Michael's Home Page

Christianity is based on Jesus being the great Jewish prophet etc....But Jewish people past and present never recognized or even heard of this famous prophet. What does this do to Christianity? It is tantamount to saying that it is a false religion.
So Christians either kill or convert all the Jews to make their religion true. You see the same mentality in Islam.

As for Buddhists, yes they are violent too: In Sri Lanka today the Buddhist monks are part of the fight against the Hindu Tamils. In ancient Japan, the Tendai sect I belonged to was famous for it's warrior monks:
The Age of the Samurai - Warrior Monk (Sohei)
definition and history of anti-Semitism; Christian and modern racist anti-Semitism;

I read 'Serpent and the Rainbow' years ago about Voudun. That was a pretty scary book.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

The Serpent and the Rainbow was a very narrow perspective and somewhat Hollywood. The movie was just plain Hollywood carrying on the long established villainization of Haitians. Not to say that what they call "zombie powder" is not true. It's just puffer fish poison in powder form. And it's about all that most people ever know about the Haitian people ro their belief system.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Interesting to note after all that history that Christians and the world's largest "Christian" nation are the staunchest (and biggest) supporters of Israel. Protestant and Catholic Christians are very different, by the way. Protestant Christians donate millions of dollars a year to help Israelis and the U.S. donates billions in money and arms to Israel. That's because these religions have undergone reform.

Now it's Islam's turn!

 

[futurekaur]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

CarolineJi;
I do agree with you. Reform for all is a good thing. Years ago I read 'Divine Horseman' about Afro-Caribbean religions. I find Haiti unspeakably sad, as it is a rich country: minerals, agriculture...and yet since the days of Toussaint L'Ouverture it hasn't been able to get equilibrium.
Is Voudun used to control the poor, or is this something mistaken, that I've read.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

There were some theories that Vodou was used to control the poor by the Duvaliers. Perhaps there were some things they did to scare people but the Vodou wasn't nearly as frightening as the real acts they and their thugs were doing to people. There are so many reasons Haiti can't get her feet up under her and the main one is dependency and neo-colonialist control and oppression by the U.S. (sorry to have to say it). Every time Haiti gets a good strong populist leader with the values and intelligence to empower the nation and make a change, the U.S. overthrows them and puts in a puppet regime that kowtows to US interests. Unfortunate. Dependency is also a huge problem. Part of that is deliberate and part of it is not. Missions have had a devastating effect on Haiti -- so much of the traditional means of subsistence have been displaced with dependency based programs that have erroded the culture.

As for Vodou -- it's not a tool of the elite as some people say. There are so many good things in Vodou that have been squashed by the missionary influence (trust me when I say there is a missionary under every rock in Haiti). Traditional medicine is all but extinct now because it was an intrinsic part of Vodou and the missionaries preached total denial of anything and everything having to do with African spirituality. So now there are no natural healers and the western clinics are fun by missionaries who don't understand the culture and charge money for the treatment that the people can no way afford. So now they basically have nothing. Its like the missionaries took the natural healers and tried to replace them with western cash based medical service that is about as practical as taking a curling iron on a campout. Its a long story. Vodou is African traditional religion syncretized with symbolism from the colonist missionaries. Services are very cathartic -- dance, drum, sing the stories of Africa and the revolution... thanks to the ancestors and the one Good God and dance and dance and dance some more. Usually some of the ancestors come back and visit to bring wisdom and advice. The Vodou priests and mambos were also the natural healers but much of that wisdom is lost.

I'm sure thats more than you wanted to know... LOL

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Here I am again - -where I am not supposed to be. But can't help it. There is a voodon temple in Philadelphia -- and it seems more like a place of healing than a place of fear.

 

[futurekaur]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

no I am really interested to hear it. It sounds a lot like what happened to American Indians and Aborigines, having their culture ripped away and nothing left....

heh, Antonia, I don't think there is any kind of arguing going on here Just about every thread I have visited is peaceful and interesting.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Here I am again - -where I am not supposed to be. But can't help it. There is a voodon temple in Philadelphia -- and it seems more like a place of healing than a place of fear.

I won't say Vodou is completely devoid of negativity -- there are negative elements but most of them were a result of the atrocities that happened during slavery and the revolution. Anything else that is typically perceived as bad are things that have to do with death or sexuality, which are both aspects of nature that Haitians are much more comfortable with than the missionaries that visit them. It is very healing and cathartic, but then I love ecstatic religions of all flavors! I studied Vodou dance for several years and the most beautiful part of it to me was that each movement had a story from the history of the Haitian people and it also represented an archetype that celebrated a certain aspect of life or humanity. Each rhythm the drummers play has a story a dance a song and an archetype associated with it. During colonial days the Haitian people were not allowed to tell their history and the tradition was oral so it left no way of keeping the history alive. Plus many of them had been separated from others of their language group to prevent communication. So the history went secret in the drum and dance and song. The voices of the ancestors speak in the drum. So a drummer is a very important person since the ancestors first speak through him. Many of the rhythms/dance are named after an African tribe or area. "congo" "Ibo" etc.. The Ibo rhythm and dance is in honor of the Ibo warriors and after the revolution there were many movements signifying the breaking of chains because the Ibo warriors fought so valliantly to win Haiti's freedom. The congo dance is in honor of the ancestral spirit of female strength, beauty, passion and love. It also signifies the water and the moon and the movements are very fluid and sensual. Banda is a rhythm that celebrates sexuality and is of the family of Gedes which are the gatekeepers of death and passion and sexuality. They are great jokers and merrymakers and they make fun of death. These kind of scare some people if they don't really understand the relationship and what they really mean. When a community gets together for a Vodou celebration it is an awesome time. Everybody comes out and brings children and family and there is food and drumming drumming into the night. I think one of the most beautiful things I saw at a ceremony was a mother sitting in a chair with her baby on her breast moving her body to the rhythm of the drums. I thought of how wonderful it would be to be that comfortable with your humanity and your sexuality from birth right on up throughout your life. I once went with a friend to a ceremony in a neighboring community and forgot to bring cash for the donation so the Mambo of that Peristile (temple) said that in turn for her overlooking my mistake I would have to show the people how I could dance Vodou so I had to go stand by her and make every move she did. She'd make a move then I'd have to make it. Of course every time she made a move it was harder and the people would be like, "Uh oh.... white girl will never be able to do this one!" And then I'd do it and they were like, "OOOooo... she did she did -- who would of ever guessed!" LOL I'd been studying this dance for years though. Then she did the hip movements (Haitians have as many words for hip movements as eskimoes do for snow). Front back. Front back. Side to side. Side to side. Four corners. Four corners. Circle circle pop front back... on and on it went and I was really keeping up my end of the deal (yeah, white girl can dance too...). Then she walks right up in front of me and does a move. I do it too. Then she does the hip pop from back to front and when she did the front one she bumped me so hard I almost fell down! Roar. Everybody was happy and I was forgiven for not bringing money since I provided good entertainment. I lost but I didn't feel bad since I had lost to a Mambo and that's the highest position in Vodou.
In a service you will dance and laugh and cry and sweat and sing and tell your troubles to someone... the ancestors will sometimes come and give you advice. And when you go home that night you sleep like a baby and wake up the next morning feeling all clean and fresh inside and ready to face life in some of the most difficult circumstances imaginable.

Okay, sorry so long. This is the interfaith dialogue section, right?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Carolineislands ji

The more you write the more enthralled is me.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Caroline Ji,

This video actually explains how Voodoo works thru our own belief system. Kindly give your views.

YouTube - Derren Brown "voodoo"

 

[sat]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Nice!

 

[Friar Yid]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

This is a tricky question! As a Jewish person, I feel that the simplest answer is, "Yes." In my opinion, the primary reason Christians misunderstand the bible is because for many denominations, their religion is predicated on the fiction that there is a unified "Bible"- something I believe to be untrue. Not only is there little connecting the two testaments, there is also a fallacy in presuming that either book contains an INTERNAL unity, either. (In this regard, I also disagree with Orthodox Jews.)

More than anything, though, I think that the issue with Christian readings of the OT are flawed because they often seem to start with a series of assumptions and beliefs involving Jesus and then looking through the OT for "signs" or "hints" referring to Jesus or other elements of Christian doctrine- which is sort of like looking through the Vedas for hints foreshadowing Guru Nanak.

A similarly annoying variant quite popular in Christian entertainment and media involves co-opting many of the stories in the OT and representing the characters or morals as being specifically Christian (which sometimes also has ethnic or racial connotations as well- all the "good" characters in a story will be identified as proto-Christian, and sometimes this goes hand-in-hand with appearing white or European). This is something that can be quite frustrating.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

This is a tricky question! As a Jewish person, I feel that the simplest answer is, "Yes." In my opinion, the primary reason Christians misunderstand the bible is because for many denominations, their religion is predicated on the fiction that there is a unified "Bible"- something I believe to be untrue. Not only is there little connecting the two testaments, there is also a fallacy in presuming that either book contains an INTERNAL unity, either. (In this regard, I also disagree with Orthodox Jews.)

This is interesting discussion. Friar Yid Ji, can you cite examples to show this "non connection" as felt by you ?

More than anything, though, I think that the issue with Christian readings of the OT are flawed because they often seem to start with a series of assumptions and beliefs involving Jesus and then looking through the OT for "signs" or "hints" referring to Jesus or other elements of Christian doctrine- which is sort of like looking through the Vedas for hints foreshadowing Guru Nanak.

This is something which has been used by followers of many religions and often used as a form of manipulation. However, I feel that to hide one lie, a hundred lies have been further created. Truth is simple and humble. It doesn't require cleverness nor cunningness to present it in its natural form.(sianapaN in Punjabi)

A similarly annoying variant quite popular in Christian entertainment and media involves co-opting many of the stories in the OT and representing the characters or morals as being specifically Christian (which sometimes also has ethnic or racial connotations as well- all the "good" characters in a story will be identified as proto-Christian, and sometimes this goes hand-in-hand with appearing white or European). This is something that can be quite frustrating.

A psychological comparison of "mine is better than yours" syndrome.


Keep pouring in your valuable information, Friar Yid Ji.

 

[Friar Yid]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Hi namjap,

This is interesting discussion. Friar Yid Ji, can you cite examples to show this "non connection" as felt by you ?

Well, the starting-point is really an issue of perspective. As I see it, the people making the claim are the ones with the responsibility to offer examples. There are certainly elements within the New Testament which contain Jewish content (many of Jesus' teachings are paraphrases or modifications of existing Jewish doctrine), but the overall focus, and the conception of God, is on something very different. The Old Testament tells the evolving story of a people directly experiencing God through miracles, disasters, and leaders. Additionally, the Old Testament, by virtue of its large scope, offers (in my mind) a very fallible representation of the human condition: not everyone in the Bible is a "good" person, and even some of its great heroes are flawed characters, such as Aaron the Priest, or King David.

The New Testament, by contrast, focuses on one man and his circle. It is a much narrower scope (personal, not national), made all the more so by its attempts to demonstrate that Jesus is perfect, sinless, and so on, which also mandates that everyone else be SINFUL by comparison. If a complete outsider such as a Martian (or perhaps a Sikh?) were to read the Old Testament and then have be offered a number of other Jewish works around the same time and be asked "Which seems most like a continuation of this?", I'm not convinced they would choose the New Testament, a collection of writings by a group of Jewish dissenters composed some four hundred years after the last books in the Old Testament were written and codified, with a different focus and different theology. I definitely understand why Christianity uses the Old Testament, and don't mean any disrespect to believing Christians, but I don't think it makes very much sense, personally, and often feel that the OT is treated with a sort of "false respect" that does not acknowledge (or is sometimes even aware of) its roots or the messages that were traditionally taught with it. I would almost rather that Christianity would focus on "its own" book and leave "ours" alone! (Ironically some Christians agree, saying that the Church focuses too much on "outdated stories" that are irrelevant because Jesus changed everything.)

This is something which has been used by followers of many religions and often used as a form of manipulation. However, I feel that to hide one lie, a hundred lies have been further created. Truth is simple and humble. It doesn't require cleverness nor cunningness to present it in its natural form.(sianapaN in Punjabi)

A very interesting perspective! I certainly agree that simplicity is a virtue. But this is a definite contrast with Judaism, which teaches an elaborate, multi-step process for understanding religious text (there have been several famous teachers in history, however, who have criticized their fellows for often jumping to the "deeper" levels of meaning while ignoring the plain meaning).

Keep pouring in your valuable information, Friar Yid Ji.

We're all just here to teach and learn.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Rev.14

1. [2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a greatthunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps

ਕਿੰਕੁਰੀ ਅਨੂਪ ਵਾਜੈ ॥
किंकुरी अनूप वाजै ॥
Kinkurī anūp vājai.
The celestial harp plays the incomparable melody,
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਤਾਰ ਘੋਰ ਬਾਜਿੰਤ੍ਰ ਤਹ ਸਾਚਿ ਤਖਤਿ ਸੁਲਤਾਨੁ ॥
तार घोर बाजिंत्र तह साचि तखति सुलतानु ॥
Ŧār gẖor bājinṯar ṯah sācẖ ṯakẖaṯ sulṯān.
The strings and the harps vibrate and resound; the true throne of the Lord is there.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਬਿਜੁਲੀ ਚਮਕੈ ਹੋਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ॥
बिजुली चमकै होइ अनंदु ॥
Bijulī cẖamkai ho­ė anand.
Lightning blazes, and bliss prevails there,
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


ਤੁਮ ਜਲ ਨਿਧਿ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਨ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਜੋ ਸੇਵੈ ਸਭ ਫਲਣੇ ॥
तुम जल निधि हरि मान सरोवर जो सेवै सभ फलणे ॥
Ŧum jal niḏẖ har mān sarovar jo sėvai sabẖ falṇė.
You are the treasureof water, O Lord, the Maansarovar Lake. Whoever serves You receives all fruitful rewards.
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

 

[Friar Yid]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

More commonalities:

Psalm 98

א מִזְמוֹר, שִׁירוּ לַיהוָה שִׁיר חָדָשׁ-- כִּי-נִפְלָאוֹת עָשָׂה;
הוֹשִׁיעָה-לּוֹ יְמִינוֹ, וּזְרוֹעַ קָדְשׁוֹ. 1 A Psalm. O sing unto the LORD a new song; for He hath done marvelous things; {N}
His right hand, and His holy arm, hath wrought salvation for Him.
ב הוֹדִיעַ יְהוָה, יְשׁוּעָתוֹ; לְעֵינֵי הַגּוֹיִם, גִּלָּה צִדְקָתוֹ. 2 The LORD hath made known His salvation; His righteousness hath He revealed in the sight of the nations.
ג זָכַר חַסְדּוֹ, וֶאֱמוּנָתוֹ-- לְבֵית יִשְׂרָאֵל:
רָאוּ כָל-אַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ-- אֵת, יְשׁוּעַת אֱלֹהֵינוּ. 3 He hath remembered His mercy and His faithfulness toward the house of Israel; {N}
all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
ד הָרִיעוּ לַיהוָה, כָּל-הָאָרֶץ; פִּצְחוּ וְרַנְּנוּ וְזַמֵּרוּ. 4 Shout unto the LORD, all the earth; break forth and sing for joy, yea, sing praises.
ה זַמְּרוּ לַיהוָה בְּכִנּוֹר; בְּכִנּוֹר, וְקוֹל זִמְרָה. 5 Sing praises unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp and the voice of melody.
ו בַּחֲצֹצְרוֹת, וְקוֹל שׁוֹפָר-- הָרִיעוּ, לִפְנֵי הַמֶּלֶךְ יְהוָה. 6 With trumpets and sound of the horn shout ye before the King, the LORD.
ז יִרְעַם הַיָּם, וּמְלֹאוֹ; תֵּבֵל, וְיֹשְׁבֵי בָהּ. 7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein;
ח נְהָרוֹת יִמְחֲאוּ-כָף; יַחַד, הָרִים יְרַנֵּנוּ. 8 Let the floods clap their hands; let the mountains sing for joy together;
ט לִפְנֵי יְהוָה-- כִּי בָא, לִשְׁפֹּט הָאָרֶץ:
יִשְׁפֹּט-תֵּבֵל בְּצֶדֶק; וְעַמִּים, בְּמֵישָׁרִים. 9 Before the LORD, for He is come to judge the earth; {N}
He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity. {P}

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Friar Yid Ji,

It's a good thing you're bringing out the similar verses from Judaism sources. It's just amazing.

Good night. It's 1am here and going off to sleep.

 

[pk70]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Frair Yid Ji

Will you please let us know if here Lord, The Creator, is supposed to come to earth to judge people righteous way, or "Lord "stands for HIS messenger in the following quote? Thanks for posting it.
9 Before the LORD, for He is come to judge the earth; {N}
He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity. {P}

 

[LennyG]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Frair Yid Ji

Will you please let us know if here Lord, The Creator, is supposed to come to earth to judge people righteous way, or "Lord "stands for HIS messenger in the following quote? Thanks for posting it.
9 Before the LORD, for He is come to judge the earth; {N}
He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity. {P}

I've skimmed through the thread, and found it truly interesting. I am reading a book by author and researcher Jordan Maxwell, titled "Matrix of Power", and in it he writes about the origins of the christian church; and how the new testaments source is ancient Egypt. Its a fascinating book, a relatively quick read at just over 105 pages. You can see Jordan Maxwell on youtube, he's a very knowledgeable man. According to Mr Maxwell, the bible is the greatest story ever told - its not to be taken factually, but esoterically. His book certainly made me ask more questions:idea::idea:!!!
I hope I've not offended anyone with my post, if I have then please accept my apology.
My favourite book in the new testament is the gospel of john, its beautiful and poetic.
Finally !!! Their is a school of thought which claims that jesus wasn't around at the time mentioned in the new testament, and that he was a teacher not messiah. Interesting stuff indeed !!!

LennyG

 

[Friar Yid]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Hi pk70,

Frair Yid Ji

Will you please let us know if here Lord, The Creator, is supposed to come to earth to judge people righteous way, or "Lord "stands for HIS messenger in the following quote? Thanks for posting it.
9 Before the LORD, for He is come to judge the earth; {N}
He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity. {P}

Jews traditionally understand this passage as referring to the Creator him/herself, and not to any specific messenger. However there are always many interpretations about exactly what means the Creator might use to fulfill a plan or intention.

Lenny- I have found some of the Gospels interesting reading from a Jewish perspective, Matthew in particular. The Sermon on the Mount is a favorite section of mine. I am in the middle of a book called "God: A biography", which traces the development of the personality of God throughout the Hebrew Bible as a literary character/representation. It's quite fascinating, though I don't yet know if there will be any dovetails with the New Testament. The author is a former Jesuit priest, so I assume so.