Hard Talk Is Sikhism A Organised 'religion' ? And If So Is That Antithetical To The Teaching Of Gurmat?

[Sikhilove]

In my view, Sikhi is DIY way of life. This is the reason there is no clergy system in Sikhi. Living the life of Miri with the tools attained from Piri is what a Sikh is all about.

The side effect of this is the birth of derawalas. So, in order to eliminate all these cults who are making millions just by using Sikhi Baana as their snake oil salesmanship, we should have some kind of method where these charlatans can not misuse Sikhi for their own benefits. The organisation is not to define who a Sikh is but who is not even with the baana.

One of the most blatant examples in the diaspora is 3HO- Yogi Bhajan's concoction, who sell snake oil named yoga, do poojas of Hindu idols, but that is not the worst thing. The worst part is they are registered in the UN as Sikh Dharma which is not Sikhi and we should organise to get rid of these kinds of charlatans in the name of Sikhi.

Guru Nanak clearly said there is no religion when he said No Hindu no Muslim, Only One.Being Sikh is being a student of the All pervading Truth- the core of which has been taught by other teachers but been corrupted, twistes and diluted. Truths been taught many times before, we aren't the aren't the chosen few.

 

[Sikhilove]

Guru Nanak clearly said there is no religion when he said No Hindu no Muslim, Only One.Being Sikh is being a student of the All pervading Truth- the core if which has been taught by other teachers but been corrupted, twistes and diluted. Truths been taught many times before, we aren't the aren't the chosen few.

Why would u get rid of charlatans? Who gives you that right? This isnt Jihad, we respect freedom of choice.

Gurus had loads of people claiming Guruship and sainthood in their days, they didnt go round beating people up and burning temples down over it, thats what the Moghuls did.

 

[RD1]

Why would u get rid of charlatans? Who gives you that right? This isnt Jihad, we respect freedom of choice.

Gurus had loads of people claiming Guruship and sainthood in their days, they didnt go round beating people up and burning temples down over it, thats what the Moghuls did.

I don't think that there necessarily has to be violence inflicted on anyone. As we have seen in other religions more clearly, there can be hundreds of sects that evolve and each can have their personal gain issues. What exactly can be done when there are groups who are clearly promoting a version of Sikhism that is very distorted? These groups can gain popularity, and then the whole true message of Sikhism can become lost. What is the best way then to handle groups like 3HO?

 

[sukhsingh]

I think it does unless it wants to be engulfed by other traditions with more resources, who have claimed it's merely a symptom or segment of their own. Orthodoxy is necessary-- to differentiate itself, to define itself, and to accommodate the growing more global followers that may not have access to the home "culture" or "institutions" etc.

How has the organization altered the "actual teachings of Sikhism"? How SHOULD it have developed over time?

Surely the only orthodoxy should be that there is no orthodoxy other than that what is implicit in bani. I.e 1 onkaar, Satnam. And then the practical framework of living demonstrated, naam jap, kirat karoo, vandh shako. Underpinned by a fearless, selfless moral responsibility to uphold the rights of others even if they are not compatible with your own personal beliefs. In fact that is the truest test. Guru teg bahadur through his own actions demonstrated this with the most clarity. Kashmiri pandits or rather some pandits sent a delegation to guru sahib to ask and seek council, his sacrifice and its significance politically, socially, philosophically and sociologically. Transcended religious identities and structural orthodoxies. At once he illegitimised the bigotry driving forced conversion, whilst also sweeping away any moral authority of brahmanical elites. He asked for nothing in return. He also demonstrated that if as a sikh you truly believe in 1onkaar then you have to do the right thing. Not all brahmins were bad people and not all Muslims were either. He could have said to pandits this isn't my fight, you guys deserve it as you perpetuate caste injustice and hierarchies.. Guru gobind singh ji in zafarnama articulates very concisely that his issue isn't with Islam but rather with the brand of Islam practiced by Aurangzeb. In fact he pretty much says that if one was to practice true Islam rather than using it as a political tool they would in step with the philosophy of sikhi

 

[sukhsingh]

I don't want to misunderstand what you are saying here! Can you please explain further to help me understand?

I think rather than differentiate they demonstrated the inherent similarities. The dogmatism and exclusivity of abrahamic religions as practiced was demonstrated to be man made and the complexity and elitism of brahmanical social practice was highlighted. The use of poetry and music necessarily means dogmatism has no place in sikhi and the rejection of hierarchical structures, emptiness of ritualistic practices, direct communion with akaal accessible to all transcends all.
I think when we create organisational structures we undermine the very basics of the message. We devalue the most liberating aspects of what is most beautiful in the simplicity of sikhi. Mool mantar should be the keystone against which we test everything. No ifs no buts. If it does not hold up to mool mantar then we have to look again

 

[Sikhilove]

I don't think that there necessarily has to be violence inflicted on anyone. As we have seen in other religions more clearly, there can be hundreds of sects that evolve and each can have their personal gain issues. What exactly can be done when there are groups who are clearly promoting a version of Sikhism that is very distorted? These groups can gain popularity, and then the whole true message of Sikhism can become lost. What is the best way then to handle groups like 3HO?

You leave them alone and let people make up their own minds.

Truth resonates with those who truly wish to discover it- hence the Gurus messages were so heavily embraced.

I learned about many paths before I came back to Gurbani, my heart knew its Truth.

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

Guru Nanak clearly said there is no religion when he said No Hindu no Muslim, Only One.Being Sikh is being a student of the All pervading Truth- the core of which has been taught by other teachers but been corrupted, twistes and diluted. Truths been taught many times before, we aren't the aren't the chosen few.

Religions are not started by individuals. These are named so, after some lapse of time by their followers. No religion is organised in the beginning. They are gradually organised considering the societal requirements. Religious organisations may not be the exact replica of philosophy of the originator and certain changes are adopted before this philosophy is streamlined into a religion.

 

[sukhsingh]

Truths been taught many times before, we aren't the aren't the chosen few

Religious organisations may not be the exact replica of philosophy of the originator and certain changes are adopted before this philosophy is streamlined into a religion.

I think religious organisations cannot replicate philosophy, despite there best endeavours.. My reading of sikhi is that guru nanak ji articulated this succinctly.. He in my opinion was able to outline most clearly how the truth belongs to all people.. And how the control of 'knowledge and truth' by institutions necessarily leads to distortion or rather more a distraction of the personal pursuit of truth. I have recently seen a couple of videos by basics of Sikhi where they champion a edict from Akal Takht against so called "mixed marriage" yet in another talk about setting up a parallel akal takht which is more true and uncorrupted! Lol. The gurus themselves were never obsessed with common labels but rather the principles by which one should live

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

I think religious organisations cannot replicate philosophy, despite there best endeavours.. My reading of sikhi is that guru nanak ji articulated this succinctly.. He in my opinion was able to outline most clearly how the truth belongs to all people.. And how the control of 'knowledge and truth' by institutions necessarily leads to distortion or rather more a distraction of the personal pursuit of truth. I have recently seen a couple of videos by basics of Sikhi where they champion a edict from Akal Takht against so called "mixed marriage" yet in another talk about setting up a parallel akal takht which is more true and uncorrupted! Lol. The gurus themselves were never obsessed with common labels but rather the principles by which one should live

The organisation of soul and body of religion have been found to be moving on delineated path. The religions with strong spirit remaining connected to the original are less corrupted than the religions which develop strong physical developments. Islam used force for physical development and its followers are found to be losing the spirit; the reason of its turning towards violence. Sikhism also strayed some time and entered into violence because of physical development. The true spirit of Sikhism remains in the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib; the physical developments in its forms which have started coming into conflict with each other. More the Sikhism is bound to the spiritual context i.e., as advocated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib; more will to be near purity. The more it moves towards physical developments not maintaining its spiritual wealth; the more it will lose its original standing.

 

[sukhsingh]

The organisation of soul and body of religion have been found to be moving on delineated path. The religions with strong spirit remaining connected to the original are less corrupted than the religions which develop strong physical developments. Islam used force for physical development and its followers are found to be losing the spirit; the reason of its turning towards violence. Sikhism also strayed some time and entered into violence because of physical development. The true spirit of Sikhism remains in the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib; the physical developments in its forms which have started coming into conflict with each other. More the Sikhism is bound to the spiritual context i.e., as advocated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib; more will to be near purity. The more it moves towards physical developments not maintaining its spiritual wealth; the more it will lose its original standing.

No such thing as less corrupted..

 

[sukhsingh]

The organisation of soul and body of religion have been found to be moving on delineated path. The religions with strong spirit remaining connected to the original are less corrupted than the religions which develop strong physical developments. Islam used force for physical development and its followers are found to be losing the spirit; the reason of its turning towards violence. Sikhism also strayed some time and entered into violence because of physical development. The true spirit of Sikhism remains in the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib; the physical developments in its forms which have started coming into conflict with each other. More the Sikhism is bound to the spiritual context i.e., as advocated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib; more will to be near purity. The more it moves towards physical developments not maintaining its spiritual wealth; the more it will lose its original standing.

Is this not true of all religions? 'Hinduism' or rather brahmanism was equally violent through the subjugation of lower castes.. Not only through structural hierarchies but also by denying access to knowledge. Islam made a noble attempt to marry spiritual and temporal reality, a theocracy of noble ideals is great on paper.. But inevitably leads to suppression and oppression because once you create a label and police it vis a vis institutions you necessarily have to be exclusive

 

[RD1]

But inevitably leads to suppression and oppression because once you create a label and police it vis a vis institutions you necessarily have to be exclusive

All religions seem to end up following this path, leading to the distortion of the actual teachings, and alienation of its followers.