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Is Salvation Possible In This Life ?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by banmeetsingh1990, Jun 21, 2010.

  1. banmeetsingh1990

    banmeetsingh1990
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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

    A SIKH'S ROAD TO SALVATION (Free from countless cycles of death and Re-Birth)

    The principal belief of Sikhism is faith in waheguru—represented using the sacred symbol of ik ōaṅkār, the Universal God. Sikhism advocates the pursuit of salvation through disciplined, personal meditation on the name and message of God. A key distinctive feature of Sikhism is a non-anthropomorphic concept of God, to the extent that one can interpret God as the Universe itself.

    Nanak's teachings are founded not on a final destination of heaven or hell, but on a spiritual union with God which results in salvation.The chief obstacles to the attainment of salvation are social conflicts and an attachment to worldly pursuits(MAYA), which commit men and women to an endless cycle of birth—a concept known as reincarnation.
    Māyā—defined as illusion or "unreality"—is one of the core deviations from the pursuit of God and salvation: people are distracted from devotion by worldly attractions which give only illusive satisfaction. However, Nanak emphasised māyā as not a reference to the unreality of the world, but of its values. In Sikhism, the influences of ego, anger, greed, attachment, and lust—known as the Five Evils—are believed to be particularly pernicious. The fate of people vulnerable to the Five Evils is separation from God, and the situation may be remedied only after intensive and relentless devotion.
    Nśabad (the divine Word) to emphasise the totality of the revelation. Nanak designated the word guru (meaning teacher) as the voice of God and the source and guide for knowledge and salvation.Salvation can be reached only through rigorous and disciplined devotion to God. Nanak distinctly emphasised the irrelevance of outward observations such as rites, pilgrimages, or asceticism. He stressed that devotion must take place through the heart, with the spirit and the soul.
    A key practice to be pursued is nām: remembrance of the divine Name. The verbal repetition of the name of God or a sacred syllable is an established practice in religious traditions in India, but Nanak's interpretation emphasized inward, personal observance. Nanak's ideal is the total exposure of one's being to the divine Name and a total conforming to Dharma or the "Divine Order". Nanak described the result of the disciplined application of nām simraṇ as a "growing towards and into God" through a gradual process of five stages. The last of these is sac khaṇḍ (The Realm of Truth)—the final union of the spirit with God.[16]
    Nanak stressed now kirat karō: that a Sikh should balance work, worship, and charity, and should defend the rights of all creatures, and in particular, fellow human beings. They are encouraged to have a chaṛdī kalā, or optimistic, view of life. Sikh teachings also stress the concept of sharing—vaṇḍ chakkō—through the distribution of free food at Sikh gurdwaras (laṅgar), giving charitable donations, and working for the good of the community and others (sēvā).

    source:Sikhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The main Goal of a Sikh in life should be(and must be) to be free from cycle of death and rebirth. I want to know does we have a shot at being free, it may be a hard and disciplined path to follow, but do we have a sure shot in this life?
    I know karma from previous births are taken into account too. I was recently listening to karm katha by Baba Hari Singh Ji (randhawe wale) and babaji says that "rehat as prescribed by the Guru, to be maintained by a Sikh is a tough task. If One can maintain 5k's, read nitnem, s/he will be reborn to a Sikh family in next life"
    Now this is depressing in a certain way, i mean isn't the path to salvation measured in the devotion of a Sikh rather than the amount of gurbani s/he reads. I have heard it from better gursikhs than me that waheguru chanted 'once' with all the love and devotion is equal to or even 'better' than chanting it thousand of times without any heart or devotion given to it.
    I have heard about sakhis of some people who were freed from this cycle only by the fact that their soul was pure and innocent.

    Guru nanak dev ji asks us to search for God within our hearts and souls rather than to search it via going onto pilgrimages. Master asks us to dwell upon naam and understand the meaning from within.
    It has been clearly stated that Salvation can be reached only through rigorous and disciplined devotion to God. No doubts about this.
    But I don't agree with the fact that by it will surely take many lives to be free of this cycle. According to me, and I maybe wrong, it depends from a person to person, on his/her devotion and love and the desire to know the truth.
    The essence of Sikh teaching is summed up by Nanak in these words: "Realisation of Truth is higher than all else. Higher still is truthful living".

    I just want to know the opinion of intelligent members of SPN.

    bhul Chuk Maaf.

    GURFATEH.
     
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  3. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Banmeetsingh99 ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I have no idea where you got this from that Salvation is part of Sikhi. It is not.

    Salvation is only needed where love is absent. Sikhi is all about love.

    "Salvation" was concocted by the dogmatic religions which prescribe to Hell and Heaven which Sikhi does not. It is a bait used as a fear tactic to lasso the people and keep them under the power of fear.

    Sikhi is a pragmatic way of life not a dogmatic religion. SGGS, our only Guru gives us the tools how to breed goodness within so that we can share that with others.

    Sikhi teaches us to become the flowers of the Gurmat garden so that we can emit the scent in all directions sans bias.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  4. banmeetsingh1990

    banmeetsingh1990
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    Sat Sri Akal Tejwant singh ji,

    I know sikhism doesn't believe in the concept of hell and heaven, and it is mentioned in the post. :Nanak's teachings are founded not on a final destination of heaven or hell, but on a spiritual union with God which results in salvation
    But Sikhism does believe in rebirth and death, and the main objective of a sikh is to be free of this cycle. The closest word that can be used in the context here is salvation. though it is not the proper word but the closest when used within context of Sikhism.
     
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  5. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Banmeet Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for the response.

    You write:

    I beg to differ with you on both of your claims.

    As Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent, there can not be any disunion to begin with. Ik Ong Kaar is not an entity, nor a deity. Guru Nanak explains that very well on the offset in the Moolmanter. There are many interpretations of it that are posted in this forum. Please go through them and share your Gurmat wisdom with us about them.

    Sikhi does acknowledge this belief in people which is part and parcel of Hinduism and as you know it is tough to get rid of the beliefs which are meaningless and Sri Guru Granth Sahib,our only Guru gives us the glimpse into many of these nonsensical meaningless beliefs in both Hinduism and the Semitic religions,mainly Islam.

    In every Shabad one studies in the 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru, which mentions about the rebirths, it also mentions that if one follows Satguru- Ik Ong Kaar, then one can have enough tools to get rid of this belief.

    After all, reincarnation is nothing but a belief deeply imbeded in the religions. Some offer it as Hell and Heaven and others offer it as different species. The fact remains that no one has come back to tell us about it.

    Hence, your assumption or claim about reincarnation in Sikhi is incorrect.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  6. banmeetsingh1990

    banmeetsingh1990
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    Respected Tejwant Singh ji,

    Reincarnation, also called transmigration of soul, is the rebirth in another body (after physical death), of a person's Soul or spirit into the new body. Its occurrence is a central tenet of Sikhism, other religions, as well as various other philosophies.
    The Sikhs believe that the Soul has to transmigrate from one body to another as part of an evolution process of the Soul. This evolution of the Soul will eventually results in a union with God upon the proper purification of the spirit. If one does not perform righteous deeds, ones soul will continue to cycle in reincarnation forever. A being who has performed good deeds and actions in their lives is transmigrated to a better and higher life form in the next life until the soul of the being becomes Godlike. From a human life form, if one performs the proper functions of a Gurmukh, the person can achieve salvation with God. One must cleanse the soul by reciting Naam, by remembrance of Waheguru and by following the path of Gurmat.


    SGGS Page 4
    But when the intellect is stained and polluted by sin,
    it can only be cleansed by the Love of Naam.
    Virtue and vice do not come by mere words;
    actions repeated, over and over again, are engraved on the soul.
    You shall harvest what you plant.
    O Nanak, by God’s Command, we come and go in reincarnation. 20


    The view on incarnation does not appear correct.a sikh aims at being a 'mukta',not rolling in reincarnation.while human form may be the result of past action,the aim for future is to become free from avagaman.being a mukta is the highest achievement for a sikh.reincarnation is clearly a brahmanical idea is rejected by sikhism. To forget Waheguru or for follow your primal instincts is to regress in your spiritual evolution. Intellect and mental agility is not a passport to spiritual heaven. Gurbani explains the consequences of deviating from the righteous path:

    SGGS Page 19
    Some are very knowledgeable,
    but if they do not know the Guru, then what is the use of their lives?
    The blind have forgotten Naam.
    The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness.
    Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end;
    through death and rebirth, they are wasting away. 3


    Gurbani tells us that the key to the door of salvation is in the hands of the Master, remember the hundred of gifts that He has given us. Remember that it is only due to Waheguru that we have this life as a human beings with this wonderful and miraculous body and mind. God has created the air that we breath; the foods that we eat; the Sun that sustains us; the Earth that is our support. We owe a huge debt to nature and the master Creator. Bani asks us to recite the Shabad and let light enter into our minds:


    SGGS Page 124
    Without the Shabad, there is only darkness within.
    The genuine article is not found, and the cycle of reincarnation does not end.
    The key is in the hands of the True Guru; no one else can open this door.
    By perfect destiny, He is met. 7

    SGGS Page 251
    This soul has lived in many wombs.
    Enticed by sweet attachment, it has been trapped in reincarnation.
    This Maya has subjugated beings through the three qualities.
    Maya has infused attachment to itself in each and every heart.
    O friend, tell me some way,
    by which I may swim across this treacherous ocean of Maya.
    The Lord showers His Mercy, and leads us to join the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation.
    O Nanak, Maya does not even come near. 7

    SGGS Page 306
    Those who meditate on You, O True Lord - they are very rare.
    Those who worship and adore the One Lord in their conscious minds
    - through their generosity, countless millions are fed.
    All meditate on You, but they alone are accepted, who are pleasing to their Lord and Master.
    Those who eat and dress without serving the True Guru die; after death,
    those wretched lepers are consigned to reincarnation.
    In His Sublime Presence, they talk sweetly, but behind His back, they exude poison from their mouths.
    The evil-minded are consigned to separation from the Lord. 11


    SGGS Page 524
    Enduring pleasure and pain, drowned in the great ocean of doubt, you shall wander in numerous reincarnations.
    You have lost the jewel of human birth by forgetting God; when will you have such an opportunity again? 3
    You turn on the wheel of reincarnation, like an ox at the oil-press; the night of your life passes away without salvation.
    Says Kabeer, without the Name of the Lord, you shall pound your head, and regret and repent. 4-1

    SGGS Page 537
    False is the love of the many emotional attachments,
    which suck the mortal into the whirlpool of reincarnation. 2
    All are travellers, who have gathered under the world-tree,
    and are bound by their many bonds. 3
    Eternal is the Company of the Holy,
    where the Kirtan of the Lord`s Praises are sung.
    Nanak seeks this Sanctuary. 4-1

    SGGS Page 900
    Slandering others, you are totally ruined; because of your past actions, you shall be consigned to the womb of reincarnation.
    Your past actions will not just go away; the most horrible Messenger of Death shall seize you. 2.
    You tell lies, and do not practice what you preach. Your desires are not satisfied - what a shame.
    You have contracted an incurable disease; slandering the Saints, your body is wasting away; you are utterly ruined. 3

    I think the belief of reincarnation are very true. how else would one explain the concept of karma and joys and suffering ? For if reincarnation is not true one can do any Karma without any fear from being judged because no matter what he'll never be born again ?

    Regards.
     
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  7. spnadmin

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    banmeetsingh1990 ji

    May i just take a little bit of forum members' time and space to clarify what the disagreement may be about. What you have written in this paragraph is an accurate, complete and concise summary of Vedantic thought regarding reincarnation, in the times of Guru Nanak and even today.

    But it is important to point something out. Earliest of the Hindu texts or vedas, did not subscribe to this view. The earliest version of the Bhagata Veda did not. As Hinduism evolved these ideas were put forward. Often scribes would add this idea to the earliest documents.

    Now within the dharmic faiths of Buddhism, Hinduism and Sikhism we see this idea of reincarnation and even transmigration put forward. But even Tibetan Buddhists, who subscribe to it, will also say no one knows for certain.

    Sikhism, also a dharmic faith, is not of one mind on this view of reincarnation. And it is also very likely that Bhagat Kabir, in his banee, was saying something very different. The problem arises from the fact that some readings focus on one part of the shabad and not the others. For example, in this quotation from Sri Guru Granth Sahib:

    This soul has lived in many wombs.
    Enticed by sweet attachment, it has been trapped in reincarnation.
    This Maya has subjugated beings through the three qualities.
    Maya has infused attachment to itself in each and every heart.

    O friend, tell me some way,
    by which I may swim across this treacherous ocean of Maya.
    The Lord showers His Mercy, and leads us to join the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation.

    If you focus on the verses in bold, you come to the conclusion that our Gurus believed in reincarnation.

    Now a different way to look at it.

    This soul has lived in many wombs.
    Enticed by sweet attachment, it has been trapped in reincarnation.
    This Maya has subjugated beings through the three qualities.
    Maya has infused attachment to itself in each and every heart.
    O friend, tell me some way,
    by which I may swim across this treacherous ocean of Maya.
    The Lord showers His Mercy, and leads us to join the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation.


    In the second view, the emphasis and/or conclusion you may draw is different. The other way of seeing this is that reincarnation itself is an "entanglement" of Maya "mental illusion" and there is a way to swim across that ocean of treacherous thinking and shake oneself free of its residue.

    I am not taking sides on this point as I have not made up my mind. However, in almost every shabad where the subject of reincarnation is mentioned, there the eternal truth of Naam opposes and transcends the idea the truth of reincarnation.

    So we tend to see it one of two ways.

    1. Union with the Creator is the alternative to reincarnation. Therefore we must act in ways to end reincarnation.

    2. Or, union with the Creator is the truth of the soul's existence and maya has caused us to forget that we are already liberated, and thus we suffer and cause others to suffer.

    The disease of reincarnation, as Guru Nanak put it in one of the sakhis, could very well be Guru's diagnosis of a widespread spiritual, social and mental illness that resulted in rituals and superstitions and mass suffering as Hinduism evolved. With the idea of caste being the ugliest manifestation of that illness, since humans had to be content to die and be reborn through layers and layers of caste until they reached the stage of the Brahmin. At that point they could injure the basic decency of all other human beings and feel blessed in doing it. And they did.
     
  8. banmeetsingh1990

    banmeetsingh1990
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    Sat Sri Akal Narayanjot ji,
    Your last post has shed light on looking at the concept of reincarnation from a different perspective in Sikhism.
    I am not as knowledgeable as other members in this forum so I seek guidance.


    2. Or, union with the Creator is the truth of the soul's existence and maya has caused us to forget that we are already liberated, and thus we suffer and cause others to suffer.

    If the above be accepted as true that we already are free, liberated of our previous karma, how can we explain poverty,natural calamities,child labor, illness, the death of a new born child etc..
    I mean if the reason for our suffering is not our karma from our previous lives than why are some us suffering while others are at peace ? Surely God is not biased ?

    Isn't it true that what goes around comes back around in one way(life) or another ?
    If reincarnation is not true and we are already free and liberated we have free will to become one with God ( by ending 5 evils) or to live a materialistic life,
    And if we choose the second option and we whether consciously or unconsciously make people suffer, isn't there no justice by the universe ?
    if re-incarnation is not true, people can get away by doing bad karma, for neither they'll be born again nor will they be sent to hell ?

    I humbly seek guidance from knowledgeable.

    Regards
    Banmeet Singh.
     
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  9. spnadmin

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    banmeetsingh1990 ji

    First of all, thank you but my explanation is only a poor expression of how I understand these points of view.

    I will try to tackle your question to the best of my ability.

    This is my understanding. Deviations from the path of righteousness or dharma, creates evil in all its forms, and this comes from attachment to maya. In other words, mistaking the veil of illusion as truth, we stray into karmas (deeds) that are influenced by ego and the 5 evils. And we need to think of karmas as being both cause and effect. Our deeds are set into motion by the deeds of others, and our own past deeds (to include decisions and choices) all come from our attachments.

    Think of Bhopal as an example of my point. Attachments and choices of all the players in that tragic story had effects on the lives of innocents. AND their own moral and spiritual states were likewise polluted by their acts.

    According to a traditional understanding of karma and reincarnation, The victims did something in a past life to earn their ghastly suffering. The evil-doers based on something in their past lives are working out their karma as well. The result is a monstrosity. A moral failure of society in both India and the US, not to mention the corporate sector and legal systems of both countries. In this scenario, the traditional understanding of karma, all kinds of evil impulses can run amok. There is no escape from it. And everyone has to cycle through it or reach mukhti somewhere along the way through mantras, pujas, rituals, sacrifices, renunciation and penance.

    Now I put that traditional view in a different color to make a point. This is, according to some, exactly what Guru Nanak was challenging. Could it be that Guru Nanak was saying this? If you just keep depending on reincarnation to clear the filth of past lives from your soul, then you have a long wait and a needless one. And could he not have also been saying, There will be no end to the evil that humans can invent? Why do you believe that mantras, pujas, rituals, sacrifices, renunciation and penance, and a little bit of luck thrown in, in the form of Gurprasad, will liberate you? Or so you believe. Even if you reincarnate, the suffering of others caused by your karams will still continue for many years to come.

    So where is the morality in that? Were our Gurus saying, One can give all that thinking up. A bad choice made 10 years ago can have a noxious effect on our own souls and the lives of others today. You can cross the treacherous world ocean sooner rather than later, and in this lifetime. How? By understanding that you are already One with the Divine. It makes reincarnation irrelevant. Maya is seen for what it is. There is no need to reincarnate in order to mend the harm done by karmas from past lives. Accept Gurprasad and start mending the harm we have done to others because it is the right thing to do, and not because of our selfish fears of death and rebirth.
     
    #8 spnadmin, Jun 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2010
  10. banmeetsingh1990

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    Respected Narayanjot ji,
    I am very confused about significance of karma and reincarnation/mukti in Sikhism.
    If the concept of reincarnation is false and is but attachment to maya itself, how about karma ?
    if one does good deeds (karma) and the other does bad karma, doesn't these karma come back in some form or another back to that person. This way universe justifies every deed done.

    If one can get away with doing bad karma and inflicting others with suffering, where is the justice to those who have suffered ?
    Isn't it correct to assume that if I make someone suffer, i will also suffer in one way or another, Similarly isn't it correct to assume that if I have tried to cleanse my soul of five evils and have done some good deeds , shouldn't those good deeds come back to me ?

    How can people who have killed innocents in 1984 Sikh riots, will never be served what they truly deserve by this universe- which in itself is perfect ? (It has been created by the hukam of God)
    How come a child suffer if he has no dues from his previous lives ? How come small children who can barely walk are infected by diseases such as HIV ?
    If there is no karma then isn't it true to assume that the world that we live in is imperfect form of God because there is no justice done ?
    Does our previous lives count for nothing ? what about the fact that a person goes through 84,00,000 reincarnations ?

    In the end this was my million dollar question all along : how can one find eternal happiness in this life ? The kind when we are in true union with God (if we are in union right now and can't see that then how can we realize that we are one with god ?) Is this 'salvation/mukti' possible in this very life ?
    If yes, then how ?

    This is really confusing and I am clearly perplexed. I need some guidance.


    Regards.
     
  11. Astroboy

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    Here are a few quotes from SGGS on salvation:-

    Page 33 ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਉਧਰੈ ਪਾਏ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ
    Sabaḏ marai ṯā uḏẖrai pā▫e mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
    If one dies through the Shabad,
    then salvation is obtained, and one finds the Door of Liberation.

    Page 67 ਨਾਮਾ ਛੀਬਾ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਜਲਾਹਾ ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ
    Nāmā cẖẖībā Kabīr jolāhā pūre gur ṯe gaṯ pā▫ī.
    Naam Dayv the printer, and Kabeer the weaver,
    obtained salvation through the Perfect Guru.

    Page 82 ਮੈ ਧਰ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਤੇ ਗਤਿ ਮਤਿ
    Mai ḏẖar nām aḏẖār hai har nāmai ṯe gaṯ maṯ.
    The Naam is my Support and Sustenance.
    From the Lord's Name, I obtain salvation and understanding.

    Page 98 ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗੋਬਿੰਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
    Ḏīn ḏa▫i▫āl gopāl gobinḏā har ḏẖi▫āvahu gurmukẖ gāṯī jī▫o. ||1||
    Merciful to the meek, Sustainer of the World,
    Lord of the Universe-meditating on the Lord,
    the Gurmukhs find salvation. ||1||

    Page 114 ਪੂਰੈ ਗੁਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ
    Pūrai gur pā▫ī▫ai mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
    Through the Perfect Guru, the gate of salvation is found.
     
  12. Tejwant Singh

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    Namjap ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Copying and pasting one liners about the Shabads is not only insulting to Gurbani, its message but also to our Gurus, especially when you post the incorrect literal translation.

    Why don't you put the whole shabad at a time and express it in English in your own words which would be fair and just?

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  13. spnadmin

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    banmeetsingh1990ji

    Concepts of karma and reincarnation are confusing for several reasons, not the least of which is that there is not one way that this has been explained. The entire matter occupies thousands of books and millions of words on a variety of different takes on the subject.

    As I said, I have not myself made up my mind on this subject because there are many unanswered questions for me as well.

    Let's go one part of your reply at a time. And if you don't mind this time around...may I ask you some questions and would you answer them so that I can figure out what you found confusing. And where I may not understand what you are saying. I would appreciate that.

    I have your statements in green and my questions/comments follow each one.


    Yes it is confusing and I think we are at the point where we are making a complete circle. Please do not interpret my questions as an attempt to tease you or mock. If you can answer them in any way then I might be able to sort out my own thoughts and state them in a clearer way.
     
  14. spnadmin

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    Realization in this lifetime? Did not mean to leave you hanging with my remark about japji Sahib. Here are 3 paurees where your concerns are addressed. There are other.

    <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 1 Jap Guru Nanak Dev

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">suniai sath santhokh giaan ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Listening-truth, contentment and spiritual wisdom.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸੁਣਿਐ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਕਾ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">suniai athasath kaa eisanaan ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Listening-take your cleansing bath at the sixty-eight places of pilgrimage.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਸੁਣਿਐ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਮਾਨੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">suniai parr parr paavehi maan ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Listening-reading and reciting, honor is obtained.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸੁਣਿਐ ਲਾਗੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">suniai laagai sehaj dhhiaan ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Listening-intuitively grasp the essence of meditation.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">naanak bhagathaa sadhaa vigaas ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੧੦॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">suniai dhookh paap kaa naas ||10||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Listening-pain and sin are erased. ||10||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਰਾ ਗੁਣਾ ਕੇ ਗਾਹ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">suniai saraa gunaa kae gaah ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Listening-dive deep into the ocean of virtue.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸੇਖ ਪੀਰ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">suniai saekh peer paathisaah ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Listening-the Shaykhs, religious scholars, spiritual teachers and emperors.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਸੁਣਿਐ ਅੰਧੇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">suniai andhhae paavehi raahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Listening-even the blind find the Path.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸੁਣਿਐ ਹਾਥ ਹੋਵੈ ਅਸਗਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">suniai haathh hovai asagaahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Listening-the Unreachable comes within your grasp.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">naanak bhagathaa sadhaa vigaas ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੧੧॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">suniai dhookh paap kaa naas ||11||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Listening-pain and sin are erased. ||11||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">mannae kee gath kehee n jaae ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">The state of the faithful cannot be described.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">jae ko kehai pishhai pashhuthaae ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਕਾਗਦਿ ਕਲਮ ਨ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">kaagadh kalam n likhanehaar ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">No paper, no pen, no scribe
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਮੰਨੇ ਕਾ ਬਹਿ ਕਰਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">mannae kaa behi karan veechaar ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">can record the state of the faithful.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aisaa naam niranjan hoe ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">jae ko mann jaanai man koe ||12||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">mannai surath hovai man budhh ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਮੰਨੈ ਸਗਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">mannai sagal bhavan kee sudhh ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The faithful know about all worlds and realms.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਮੰਨੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਨਾ ਖਾਇ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">mannai muhi chottaa naa khaae ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">The faithful shall never be struck across the face.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਮੰਨੈ ਜਮ ਕੈ ਸਾਥਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">mannai jam kai saathh n jaae ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The faithful do not have to go with the Messenger of Death.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aisaa naam niranjan hoe ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.</td></tr></tbody></table>
     
  15. banmeetsingh1990

    banmeetsingh1990
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    Respected Narayanjot Kaur ji,
    Your comments are really introspective, I will try to think properly and reply ASAP.

    There has been many comments in this topic that sikhism might not accept the idea of reincarnation and karma.
    I was recently listening to Karma Katha (by Sant Hari Singh Randhawa wale). It is narrated by Bhai Daya Singh. Babaji explains that one vaisakhi (forgive me if I'm wrong) Diwan was decorated, sangat had come from all over the country. And Sangat asked Sri Guru gobind Singh ji to explain all about Karma. Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji inturn made Bhai Daya Singh to tell all about Karma.
    This katha is available on net. here : gurmatchanan.com: Karam Katha

    In this Katha Babaji frequently refer to previous lives and explains types of Karma. He also criticizes the comety's and people running administration of not popularizing it.
    I was just curious, I mean this is a granth of Sikhism from times of Sikh history and explains in detail about karma and reincarnations. But i wasn't able to find anything on net about it.
    Could this be something which sikh community has lost over time ?
     
  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    banmeetsinghji

    I appreciate your willingness to introspect with me. My understanding may not capture what others who challenge the idea of reincarnation have to say. It is just my understanding of the controversy and nothing more.

    For me the jury will have to be out on words of Guru Gobind Singh regarding reincarnation.

    We have to be careful I think when considering those kathas that interpret the words of Guru Gobind Singh. The entire story that is told in Bachittar Natak of Guruji's own reincarnations is considered to be fraudulent by a large segment of Sikh scholars. For one thing, Guru Gobind Singh seems to be confused and mixed up about his sequence of births, to the extent that he fails completely to mention his father Guru Teg Bahadur. That is just one problem.

    Because so much that he has supposedly said may have been invented by people who used his spiritual legacy and tried to make it their own in order to gain political control of Sikhism. I will take note of the katha. Thank you.
     
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  17. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Tejwant Singh Ji,

    I don't remember anybody saying anything about reading the meanings of single words as per Mahan Kosh Dictionary to be insulting to Gurbani. If you were to click on any particular word which is underlined, you will be linked to the dictionary meaning. I thought you should be made aware of this feature.
     
  18. PapaDan

    PapaDan
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    hello everyone !
    please do not take offense but Nanak is exactly correct in that we must focus within to find our salvatiion , or find the "Truth" .
    Nanak is trying to explain that its the daily distractions that will keep us from reconnecting to our higher selves , our God , our Creator .
    That if we meditate and commit ourselves to reconnecting to spiritual consciousness and away from ego based consciousness that we can gain "salvation" .

    in time when you become a spiritually awakened being or an enlightened being and slip into the wonderful spiritual consciousness .
    From here you can realize that there is no heaven or hell , there is no karma , there is no life and there is no death ..... there is only Creation and you blessed beings are a part of that creation and 'All that Is" .

    in this context of Creation , you will reach that "salvation" or find 'the Truth" ..the cycle of reincarnation will stop and you will only become a part of Creation itself .
    in other words you spiritually mature to a point that reincarnation simply isnt needed anymore .
    You actually become one creator , one creation , thus "Ek Ong Kar" ....Nanak laid out the entire blueprint to reach our Prime Creator and the pathway to transending our entire physical reality and entering into spiritual consciousness in one fantastic mantra .

    It's not about conditions , it's not about judgement , it's only about raising our spiritual consciousness to such a state that nothing else matters except Creation and how wonderful it is that we get this chance to experience it in this way , be good to yourselves, be good to everyone and everything , and the Truth will be Yours ..... Wahe Guru !

    Nanak found the Truth and he passed on this wisdom to all that will hear it .
    Embrace the Wisdom , Embrace the Truth with love in your heart and your soul will sing songs of joy that God and all Creation will hear .
    And that my friends , is what its all about .

    **** Ek Ong Kar************************** One Creator, Creation
    **** Sat Nam****************************** Truth is God’s Name
    **** Kartaa Purkh************************ Doer of everything
    **** Nirbhao******************************* Fearless
    **** Nirvair******************************** Revengeless
    **** Akaal Moorat*********************** Undying
    **** Ajoonee******************************** Unborn
    **** Saibung******************************** Self Illumined
    **** Gur Prasad**************************** It is by Guru’s Grace
    **** Jap ************************************* Repeat and Meditate!
    **** Aad Sach****************************** True in the beginning
    **** Jugaad Sach************************* True through all the ages
    **** Haibhee Sach************************ True even now
    **** Nanak Hosee Bhee Sach********* Nanak says Truth* shall ever be.
     
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    #17 PapaDan, Jun 24, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2010
  19. harbansj24

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    Banmeetsingh ji, Narayanjot Kaur ji, Tejwant Singh ji,

    Gurufateh

    I do not think that Guru Nanak at any place has categorically either accepted or rejected rebirths. All that he repeatedly says is that Naam or Simran is the only way for cleansing and advancement of the soul. By this process it is possible to achieve union with Ek Onkar or the ultimate or infinite. Very honestly he says that it is not possible for the human mind to understand and claim to know about it all.
    A few blessed souls manage to achieve this union in this birth itself. But he does hint that if this is not possible in this birth and requires another vehicle for it to achieve such an exalted status, then so be it!
    One thing he is sure about is that the soul is eternal and it strives to achieve perfection and a state of purity in which it can achieve the ultimate union. The process prescribed by him is Naam Simran.

    Is there not a whiff of logical and scientific thinking in this? Does this not link up with continuous evolution of creation?
     
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  20. spnadmin

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    Thanks for expressing this succinctly. That is basically my understanding also.
     
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  21. arshi

    arshi United Kingdom
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    Harbans Singh Ji and Narayanjot Ji heve made some excellent contributions from which I, personally, have gained a lot. A devout lady (hereafter referred to as ‘Kaur’ emailed a question which touches the topic under discussion here. I think this may be of interest to some members on the forum.ffice:eek:ffice" />
    <?"urn:[​IMG]{ਪੰਨਾ 1364}

    kabeer aisaa ayk aaDh jo jeevat mirtak ho-ay.(Sri Guru Granth Sahib

    Kabeer, rare is such a person, who remains dead while yet alive.


    The above translation is rather inadequate and also too literal.

    We must view the meaning in the context of the whole pankti and better still also in the context of earlier salokas.


    The translation as per my limited understanding:
    Kabir, those who are completely detached from worldly comforts and desires (i.e. from maya) are extremely rare. Such individuals are indifferent and oblivious to the joys and sorrows of life; they sing Lord’s praises without fear or reservation and perceive Him (Waheguru) everywhere – where ever one looks He is there.

    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਰਤਾ ਮਰਤਾ ਜਗੁ ਮੂਆ ਮਰਿ ਭੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਕੋਇਐਸੇ ਮਰਨੇ ਜੋ ਮਰੈ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਮਰਨਾ ਹੋਇ੨੯॥{ਪੰਨਾ1366}



    To understand the underpinning meaning of this Salok one must appreciate the concept of jeevan mukta (redemption or liberation while alive) and the concept of sookhsham sareera (the subtle inner-self – software in terms of computer analogy) and asthool or sthool sareera (the manifest form – body - hardware in terms of computer analogy). Note: The manifest body is made up of five elements – air water, earth, fire and ether (or space); the subtle body comprises the mind and the intellect, which tend to generate egotism in man.


    The worldly person is always scared of death and, under the influence of maya - constantly lives in fear of death. Such an individual does not know how to overcome the fear of death, neitherhas he learnt the art of ‘dying’ (i.e. that of killing desires - vaashna – freeing himself from the clutches of worldly illusion which is also a creation of God). Kabir says one must eradicate the vaashna (all negative desires and traits) from the sooksham sareera (and thereby killing it) to merge with the Divine Light.

    Many believe that mukti (liberation) comes after death of the asthool sareera. Nothing can be further from the truth. Mukti must be achieved before mortal death.


    Man maarye ḏẖaaṯ mar jaa▫ey;bin moo▫ey kaisey har paa▫ey. Sri Guru Granth Sahib 159

    Only by killing (subduing) the mind (sookhsham sareera) will one’s wanderings end. Without such a death (of the sookhsham sareera), how can one find the Lord?


    This will only come with the Guru’s Grace and only after we have shed our ego. If we don’t then the consequences are frightening:

    jam jam marai marai fir jammai; bahu sajaaey peyaa es lammai. Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1020


    You shall be born and born again, and die repeatedly (i.e. the death of the asthool sarira), only to be reincarnated again. Without erasing ego and killing the sookhsham sareera you shall undergo (suffer) indefinite bouts of life and death.


    We must submit our mind to the Guru and entrust ourselves totally in his hands – ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁmunn jeetai jag jeet”. Lord’s mercy will follow in time although there is no way we can assume or predict it.


    safal safal baee safal jaaraa; aava jaa rahey miley saaḏẖaa. Sri Guru Granth Sahib 687


    My spiritual journey (pilgrimage) has borne fruit and has been concluded successfully and my cycle of comings and goings (aavan jaan) has ended, since I met the holy one (Sant, Guru).


    Hope this helps and God bless.

    ‘Arshi’


    In the context of ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ in Sikhism (also touched on in this thread) may I add:


    The Five Khands (Realms) are the five spiritual stages and our sookhsham saraera (subtle body) must go through the first four before merging into the Universal Light (Nirankar) which resides in the Sach Khand (Japji Sahib: Pauris 34).


    When an individual ‘dies’, it is really the death of the manifest body (Asthool sareera), the subtle body (sookhsham sareera) lives on carrying with it an imprint of karmas and desires of this life and previous existences. Such a jeeva will remain in the cycle of life and death (to some extent the Sikh concept of ‘hell’).


    On the other hand, rare souls (one in millions/billions perhaps) are able to negotiate the various spiritual stages (Khands) successfully and become jeevan muktas (liberated while also mortally alive). They would have purified themselves of the effects of the five negative traits which trouble us all our lives. Such a soul has achieved sehaj avastha and resides in a heavenly state of mind body and soul – the real ‘heaven’.

    Are there separate and autonomous domains/planets of heaven and hell? Only those who have elevated themselves up the ladder of Khands can answer that question.


    A seeker’s ultimate goal is to reach the door of Sach Khand and then await the Param Atma’s Grace (Call) for merger. Sach Khand is the ultimate spiritual plain. There is nothing else beyond this. There is no limit to the expanse and reach of the Realm of Truth – in fact it encompasses the entire creation of God including the other four realms. Sach Khand is Waheguru and Waheguru is Sach Khand:


    This is how I interpret Japji Sahib (Pauri 37)

    “The Formless Lord resides in Sach Khand (Realm of Truth). He creates and then watches over His creation with love and compassion. The soul is completely absorbed in the Universal Soul. With His Grace the jeeva can see across the door to where only the Lord is seen – nothing else. The jeeva’s spiritual consciousness (ffice:smarttags" /><?xml::[​IMG]<st1:City w:st="on">surat, dhyan) is constantly engaged in Lord’s praise. With God’s Grace he is able to see numerous planets, solar systems and galaxies. These scenes cannot be expressed as there is no limit to His creations. By His command are created various worlds and forms of life. He rejoices watching over these with His merciful Grace. Nanak says it is impossible to describe these experiences i.e. these can be felt but not expressed.”

    The above are my thoughts based on my limited understanding of Gurbani and some enlightened members on the forum may not agree with all I have written. For that may I apologise in advance as my spiritual level is that of a mere beginner.

    With best wishes and chardi kala

    Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
     
    • Like Like x 3
    #20 arshi, Jun 25, 2010
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