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Is It True..Can It be so?

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by Archived_Member1, Dec 9, 2007.

  1. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
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    i have heard before that Guru Nanak was mentioned in the vedas, but only by hindutva fundamentalists who wish to portrey sikhs as the "military wing" of hinduism. i have my doubts as to the authenticity of these verses. hindu holy texts are notoriously variable depending on the source, so i would not be surprised if these verses were "planted" by hindus wishing to assimilate sikhs into their faith.
     
  2. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    According to vijaydeep singh It is lie that guru nanak was predicted in veda's.If he visit this site then you can clarify whether it is true or false.
     
  3. spnadmin

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    Looking at verses from an ancient scripture in the present, and then claiming that they predict the arrival of a leader hundreds of years after the scripture was written, is not hard to understand and not limited to the reading the puranas and the vedas. Problem is-- the so called "truth" of these predictions is always based in the imagination of people running wild. They are reading ancient scriptures much later than they were written. So it is not really a prediction but is hindsight.

    The same mental condition promotes this as with the prophecies of Nostradamus.

    In my opinion, the tendency to focus on these predictions comes from the fear and the need to be able to say "I have discovered the truth" -- making one feel especially blessed and therefore safe and important.

    If Akaal is our support, then we don't need to be concerned one way or the other.
     
  4. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    When we forget that Sikhi is the only religion that is idea based, NOT personality based as other relgions are, then we start concocting silly stories to justify the existence of Sikhi amongst the plethora of other religions.

    Sikhi needs no justification at all to prove its validity. It is NOT a dogmatic religion based on subjective truths but a pragmatic way of life based on objective reality. That's why it has the universal message.

    Whether Guru Nanak is mentioned in the Vedas or not is irrelevant. If we stop and ponder for bit what names or titles our Gurus gave themselves in SGGS? We have to stop and think,because there are NONE. Just numbers. Which shows us that Sikhi is about the message not about the messenger.

    Hence it is NOT about our Gurus but about Gurbani.

    Tejwant
     
  5. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    It is not only the Hindus who want to "own Nanak" there are the Tibeteans and Muslims as well. One should delve in their claims as well.
     
  6. spnadmin

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    Just a ditto

    Hence it is NOT about our Gurus but about Gurbani. (Vaheguruseeker)
     
  7. Sikh80

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    Respected Namjap ji,
    You are right, Guru Nanak sahib ji is well accepted by Tibetians as this write would show.​


    An article by Preet Mohan Singh Ahluwalia
    The following travel account of Sardar Surinder Singh was published in the Sikh Review, Feb-Mar 1970.
    Travels of Sardar Surinder Singh
    Guru Nanak was the most widely traveled Prophet. He not only covered the length and breadth of the Indian sub-continent but also visited the Middle East, the seat of the Muslim religion, as well as Tibet the seat of Buddhism during the 15th century. Definite historical evidence of the Guru’s visit to Tibet is not available, but this tradition is being passed on from generation to generation, despite the difficulties and hazards of the journey that existed in those times. This persistent tradition has gained strong support from the revelations made from Tibetan lamas coming into India in the recent years.
    The Dalai Lama, spiritual leader of Buddhists in Tibet, has confirmed it in his discussions with some Sikh leaders and that Tibetans revere Guru Nanak as a Buddhist saint under the name of Guru Gompka Maharaj.
    An Indian official who went in late 1950s with our trade mission to Lhasa has brought with him a painting drawn on silk from a Buddhist monastery stated to be of Guru Nanak. The portrait was in the typical dress of the Tibetan saints. During my two years stay in North Bengal and Sikkim, I visited a large number of monasteries and, on making enquiries, I found quite a few lamas mentioning Guru Nanak as a saint of theirs who had gone to Tibet from India.
    [​IMG]
    At a place called Ghoom, a few miles from Darjeeling, there is a Tibetan monastery where a large tanka (a painting on cloth which can be rolled up like a map) is said to be that of Guru Nanak. These facts tend to confirm the belief that Guru Nanak visited Tibet, but differences of opinion exist over the route taken by him.
    One view is that his route lay through Ladakh, which was even then a Buddhist center, linked with Lhasa (capital of Tibet). The other is that Guru Nanak took a route passing through Sikkim. There is evidence in the Sikh scriptures that Guru Nanak went to kamrup (Assam). Either the state of Kamrup then included modern Sikkim or after visiting the Kamrup area Guru Nanak went on to Tibet through Sikkim.
    Sikkim has two main routes through which trade between India and China has been carried down the ages, viz., Natu-la Nathang route and the Donkhyla Nonkung Passes. It was at Gangtok that a civilian contractor told me of the existence of a Gurdwara in North Sikkim in memory of Guru Nanak. I had been planning to visit North Sikkim for its scenic beauty, but the reported presence of a Gurdwara there made me too eager to carry out the plan. My two attempts to reach Chungtang did not materialize, as I could not cross Wong-slide, almost halfway, which was then very active due to the rainy season. It was on my third attempt, during winter, that I reached Chungtang, the place where Guru Nanak stayed on his way to Tibet.
    Chungtang is about a 100 miles away from Gangtok and is in the interior of North Sikkim. The route which goes along Teesta river from Dikchu onward used to be a bridle path only, but a few years ago a metallic road called North Sikkim highway has been completed and now a trip to Chungtang is quite easy and comfortable. The valleys of North Sikkim are the most fertile in Sikkim, the people there are very healthy and charming and the scenic beauty is breadth catching with millions of orchids blossoming all around.
    Half way at Singik one gets a most clear and enchanting view of Kanchangchunga. Chungtang is at a height of about 6500 feet above sea level. The small valley has Teesta River and Lachung Choo (a tributary of Tiesta) on the two sides; these separate the valley from densely forested hills. The smaller hills on its northwest lead to Lachung Lachen valleys and Donkhyla-Nonkung Passes entering into Tibet.
    [​IMG]
    Certain maps published by Government of India show a shrine and police post in Chungtang. There are only a few houses in Chuntang. The major features are the shrine of Guru Nanak and the Sikkim police post. Local people also call the place Nanak-Tang. Due to the pucca (metallic) road having been laid, the area is now fast developing into a prosperous village with amenities like a school, dispensary, etc., coming up.
    [​IMG]
    In the middle of the small valley there is a single hard stone mound, 30 feet high and about 200 feet in circumference. The village people have risen a feet high stonewall around it to maintain the sanctity of the place. The stone mound has a cave inside, whose mouth has been walled up with stones. On the top of the mound, there are a few depressions. They are believed to be the footprints of Guru Nanak and the local people still pay homage to these marks. I saw some small coins offered at the spot on the top marked by a stone, about 2 cubic feet, although there was no priest as such for the shrine.
    On the side of the mound there are crevices a few feet about the ground level through which water was trickling. The crevices were a few inches deep, suggesting that the water has been coming out of these for the past few centuries.
    The story that has come down from generations, as told by the local people is that, Guru Nanak on his way to Tibet stayed here in the cave under the mound and, as the water in the river was very muddy due to the rains, he produced water from the side of the mound and since then the water keeps on coming out of the ribs of the mound. During the passage of time, earth has come down from the hills dues to rains and landslides, and has covered up the side of the mound to a sizeable extent and hence the cave, which is otherwise quite large, has been walled up.
    Tibetans who come there tie their religious hymns with strings taken across the mound by tall bamboos. It is a belief among Tibetans that the individual doing so gets recitation of these hymns credited to his account the number of times the cloth carrying the hymns flutters in the breeze. These are also stated to be efficacious warding off of evil spirits.
    At about 20 places on the mound wild white orchids were blossoming. When I tried to pick up a small bunch of orchids, some of the local people immediately stopped me, indicating that this being a temple I could not remove these orchids. I explained to them that this was as much a temple of mine as theirs and I wanted to take away a few orchids with me as a symbol of the Guru’s blessings and grace. They were not at first convinced by my argument, but then an old man, pointing to my beard and turban, told them in their language that I was a follower of Guru Nanak and might be allowed to carry these orchids with me.
    I stayed there till evening. The sun was slowly coming to its journey’s end and its orange rays filtered through the trees on the hilltop. The day’s warmth was still lingering in the breeze. The mild flutter of the hymns and the gushing waters of the river made a soft music for the ears. There was an aroma of serenity and ethereal bliss around the place in which I almost lost myself.
    As the shadows lengthened and deepened, I moved from the place with a strange elation, which dwelt in my heart for days together. Even now when my thoughts take me back to Nanak-tang, the same strange feeling of elation grips me and urges me to go there again.
    Whenever I have spoken about my visit to Chungtang, I have found that most members of my community and other admirers of Guru Nanak are not aware of it. I have, therefore, given the above account so that the lovers and devotees of Guru Nanak may make a pilgrimage to Nanak-tang where there is in the atmosphere a power of prayer that goes to your heart without your moving your lips and you drink deep of the bliss of peace that Guru Nanak had left in the place. Those with resources and the custodians of our faith may raise there a suitable shrine to the glory of Guru Nanak and for the benefit of pilgrims.

    Source:
    Guru Nanak in Tibet - Part II « The Inner Journey
     
  8. Sikh80

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  9. Sikh80

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    HUM HINDU NAHIN


    naa ham hi(n)dhoo n musalamaan
    I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim
    poojaa karo n nivaaj gujaaro
    I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.
    eaek nira(n)kaar lae ridhai namasakaaro
    I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there.
    - Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1136​


    In today’s advanced age and time, more and more people have access to education and information than ever before. This has plunged majority of them into the lofty heights of self-acknowledgement. Though this is not a new breed of people (such false preachers and self-proclaimed wise men exited since the beginning of civilization), they philosophies spread their net on people of weaker judgement and victimise them into believing their poisonous preachings. The people of Truth have always been in the minority, because I believe that is the very intention of God. If the people of Truth were in the majority, the minority would be oppressed – like the Mughals did when they spread their faith by the sword. God’s purpose to keep the men of Truth in the minority is to prove that no matter the opposition, Truth’s might triumphs – its takes time, sacrifices and faith to win over the enemy.


    The day Nanak was born, only the village Pandit and the midwife instantly recognised the divine soul. Extremely few saw the Diving Light in Nanak, while the rest remained ignorant until the day Nanak merged into the Divine. The ignoranced did not end there – opposition against the House of Nanak continued through the successor Sikh Gurus and still exists today.

    But today’s ignorance of Sikhi is prevalent not just in non Sikhs, but in many Sikhs as well. Sikhi has proved to me, beyond doubt, that when Truth comes face-to-face with you, the face of the enemy can be seen as Truth reflects only that what we really are. Truth is a mirror – it never reflects what the one facing it isn’t. When I face Guru Granth Sahin (as Shabad), I see what I really am – if I am earnestly following the Shabad, then the picture is pretty, otherwise it is disgusting – and it’s mine, whether I like it or not.


    No wonder, that since the advent of Sikhi, with the birth of Nanak, the amount of opposition has been piling up. The greatest opposition to the message of Nanak was that Sikhs are are part of Hindus. It’s a strange claim because on the one hand the Hindus want to own the Sikhs as Hindus, and on the other hand oppose Nanak’s teachings that speak against idol-worship and the caste system. then we have the Muslims who also lay claim on Guru Nanak as one of their own. This is a remarkable scenario, unparalleled in the history of religion where one man is claimed as their own by more religions that the one he founded. Is it not strange to hear the song over and over again that ‘Sikhs are Hindus’ when the people procaliming it do not even believe Guru Nanak’s proclamation that he was neither Hindu nor Muslim? What we miss here is that Nanak as the man is not the entity to be accepted (if we do not want to), it is the Shabad that he revealed to us that is to be followed. The fact is that anyone and everone is a sikh (learner, student) because they follow the teachings of their respective religions. But the Sikhs are those who follow the teachings of the 10 Sikh Gurus as enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which includes the worship of one God. Besides this, Sikhs cannot be Hindus because Nanak may have been born in a Hindu family, but was not born as a Hindu – he rejected the Janeu at such a tender age. That alone does not prove that Nanak was not a Hindu: He worshipped only one Akaal Purakh (Hindus worship 33 million gods); he grew his kesh and protected it with a dastaar (Hindus cut their hair); he was casteless; he did not fast (Hindus fast); he studied the Vedas but was not a follower of them (Hindus follow the teachings of the Vedas and Puranas); he did not take the mandatory dip in the River Ganga (Hindus are instructed to bathe in the River Ganga at least once in their life time); and he did not follow the Hindu festivals of Raksha Bandhan, Karva Chauth, belief in Vishkarma, astrology and numerology (which all Hindus are devotees of).



    The last point above has been separated because it applies to those Sikhs who have allowed themselves to revere certian Hindu customs and rituals which have prompted the Hindu activists to stamp Sikhs as part of Hinduism. What the Hindu activists forget is that even Hindus visit the Harimandir Sahib but no Sikh tells them that it makes them Sikhs. It is just the Hindus that take the exception only because they feel threatened and insecure (just like the Hindu Hill Rajas felt when they saw the flourishing congregation of Guru Gobind Singh Ji), lest the Hindu faith loses on what keep the caste system dominating over the lower castes. Sikhi is so free of dogmas and the worship only one Akaal Purakh, that the Hindus feel the most offended for it challenges centuries of their blind rituals. They forget that the faith of Nanak does not condemn their rituals, but merely awakens them to Truth. No Sikh Guru ever denounced Hinduism, but the opposite is what is happening with the Hindus for they can simply not accept Sikhism as a new faith.




    Just because the number of ignorant Sikhs who follow Hindu customs and rituals (like astrology, numerology, fasting, Raksha Bandhan, Diwali, Dushera) is growing in numbers is no proof that Sikhs are Hindus. What is true is that those Sikhs that follow Hinduism as well will one day relapse into Hinduism itself – for they cease to be Sikhs as they have ignored the teachings of their faith and chosen to follow their own manmat which our Gurus rescued us out of.





    Just like anyone can dress up like a policeman and commit crimes in its guise, likewise, it is just as easy for any Hindu propagandaist to adorn the roop of a Sikh and try to proove the Hindu-ness of Sikhs by doing Hindu things. The perfect example is the RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) which has began to create rifts into the Sikhs by founding a wing of their Sangh under the name of Rashtriya Sikh Sangat which does everything Hindu and denounces Sikh beliefs because the very mission of RSS is to promote their language (Hindi), rule of their faith (Hindu) and return India to the land of Hindus only (Hindustan). This is nothing short of the ambition of the Mughals when they dreamed of turning Hindustan into a fully Islamic State. The Mughals failed in their ambition because it was based against the very nature of God. The very cause of the agenda against Sikhs is the fact that while every other religion considers itself as the supreme over the others, the Sikh religion is the only one that confers equality to all and does not consider itself higher or lower than another religion. Besides the Sikh religion, all other religions squirm to admit equality because of their over-zealous ambition to dominate and claim of exclusivity. The Christians consider non-Christians as inheritors of Hell, the Muslims consider non-Muslims as kafirs (non-believers) and now the Hindus consider all religions as part of Hinduism. Sikhi is the biggest thorn in the flesh of these major religion because of its message of equality and distinct code of conduct.




    The greatest weapons of the RSS and other Hindu propaganda groups are the splinters ’sects’ of Sikhi – the Naamdharis, Radha-Soamis, Nirankaris and Darshan Das. Because they all claim the heritage of Nanak (through their references from Guru Granth Sahin Ji, they do not, however, believe in the Code of the Khalsa (Sikh Rehat) and this is the weakness of the Sikhs that the propaganda activists have taken advantage of and hijacked to turn the attention of the world and ‘proove’ to them that ‘Sikhs are no different from Hindus’. But try as much as they may, Nanak will remain what he was – neither Hindu, nor Muslim.




    The point of this article is not to prove that as a Sikh, I consider my faith more beautiful than the others, but to emphasise on the respect we all deserve. When some group treds on insulting our Gurus, our beliefs and practices and then go as far as debunking our faith, then it simply crosses the limit and we need to awaken to what the people around us up to. All the other religions glorify themselves – Christianity, Islam and now Hinduism, but only the Sikh faith refrains from self-glory because the House of Nanak sees all as equal. Our greatest challenge is the rising apostasy, corrupted Sikh leadership and general apathy in regard to our heritage and teachings. Our strength is in disassociating with anyone Sikh or Sikh group that twists the teachings of our Gurus and belittle the authority of Guru Granth Sahib because they become enemies of the House of Nanak. We let them be, but do not allow them to interfere with our beliefs. Sikhs have never been known to speak against any religion, no matter what attrocities they may have committed on the Sikhs – that is the beauty of Sikhi.





    The tragedy of our predicament is that we have not recognised our own selves and that is why we are victimised and we hardly even notice it. There was a reason for which Nanak was born and there still is a reason why we need to uphold the values of his teachings. When we forget them is when we become exposed to those that have been the enemy of the House of Nanak for the last 500 years. The enemy never dies but Truth never gives up either.​
    hi(n)dhoo a(n)nhaa thurakoo kaanaa ||
    The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only on
    -Bhagat NaamDev Ji, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 874

    Hum Hindu Nahin « The Inner Journey II
     
  10. Archived_Member5

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    Do not seek to posses the spirit of The Waheguru, rather be considered blessed f it posseses. The foolishness posessivness of mortals. The Mahatma Wahegure is the great supreme soul, Th euniversal all pervading spirit. Religions are his children whether created by his son, Mohammed, Jesus, Bhudda or Nanak. Stop this idle nonsensical bickering. Let the global godly, pure and noble spirit of the great creator become one in thought, deed and voice. And do the Great father and creator a huge favour. His scattered and warring children, all hateful and loathing and constantly waging war in th ename of religion has brought the downfall of his Omnipotent and Monotheist power.

    <<<<<<<<<<< EDITED>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
     
    #10 Archived_Member5, Dec 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2007
  11. SARDAR SAHIB

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    HUM HINDU NAHIN


    naa ham hi(n)dhoo n musalamaan

    I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim
    poojaa karo n nivaaj gujaaro
    I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.
    eaek nira(n)kaar lae ridhai namasakaaro
    I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there.
    - Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1136

    Yet Hindutva fundamentalists are still trying to associate Sikhs as martial wing of Hindu and nothing else. If Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji's prakash is mentioned in their Vedas then why did they not accept Guru Sahib teaching by discarding all other practices? The truth is majority hindus in prominent authorities were the ones who were anti-Sikh. Did they not know then what was written in their purans and vedas. Vedas and Purans had been amended many times before and there are many versions of the same.
    Here the question is not what they are saying or trying to prove, but should be how much do we really know about Gurbaani and Guru Sahib.
    Unfortunately our so called Sikh-Leaders and psuedo-Philosophers are too busy appeasing their paymasters.
    "The tragedy of our predicament is that we have not recognised our own selves and that is why we are victimised and we hardly even notice it. There was a reason for which Nanak was born and there still is a reason why we need to uphold the values of his teachings. When we forget them is when we become exposed to those that have been the enemy of the House of Nanak for the last 500 years. The enemy never dies but Truth never gives up either."...quote from SIKH80.
     
  12. SARDAR SAHIB

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    The TRUTH is :-
    "HUM HINDU NAHIN"


    naa ham hi(n)dhoo n musalamaan
    I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim
    poojaa karo n nivaaj gujaaro
    I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.
    eaek nira(n)kaar lae ridhai namasakaaro
    I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there.
    - Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1136

    Yet Hindutva fundamentalists are still trying to associate Sikhs as martial wing of Hindu and nothing else. If Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji's prakash is mentioned in their Vedas then why did they not accept Guru Sahib teaching by discarding all other practices? The truth is majority hindus in prominent authorities were the ones who were anti-Sikh. Did they not know then what was written in their purans and vedas. Vedas and Purans had been amended many times before and there are many versions of the same.
    Here the question is not what they are saying or trying to prove, but should be how much do we really know about Gurbaani and Guru Sahib.
    Unfortunately our so called Sikh-Leaders and psuedo-Philosophers are too busy appeasing their paymasters and doing nothing to stop this nonsense.
    "The tragedy of our predicament is that we have not recognised our own selves and that is why we are victimised and we hardly even notice it. There was a reason for which Nanak was born and there still is a reason why we need to uphold the values of his teachings. When we forget them is when we become exposed to those that have been the enemy of the House of Nanak for the last 500 years. The enemy never dies but Truth never gives up either."...quote from SIKH80.
     
  13. Sikh80

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    I have taken some of the points from your post. I am in agreement with the above observations. Sikhism is considered a religion wherein one gets up in the morning and start chanting 'waheguru' 'waheguru' 'waheguru' and disturb others. Sikhs are most polite persons.May be it is post 84 effect. Sikhs were the persons whom people were afraid of in general.But 84 changed it all.

    The question that has been raised in the post is how to popularize the Sikhism if not for expansion than for acceptance by the coming generation. Sikhism does not have popular role models in civil society.Youth cannot associate with pride with the 'sikh Icons' for there are not many and if anyone is of that status one would be busy in basking in self glorification.
    I am not able to put in fresh points but would participate in the discussion as to how to popularize all parts of Sikhism.
     
    #13 Sikh80, Dec 15, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2008

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