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General Is it Karma?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by calnexin, Apr 14, 2008.

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  1. calnexin

    calnexin
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    hi. i am new to this site and this is my first post so i don know in which
    section this would go in so i apologize in advance. we all try to do path
    everyday and more over we all try to follow what the Almighty Guru
    Granth Sahib tells us but do you guys also feel that bad people in this
    world get what they want and not the the good people or bad people
    get more what they want. I mean we are not supposed to think bad
    about other people or do harm to other people but sometimes it just
    bothers me so much that a certain someone is getting what they want in life
    and i am not. but i am not supposed to think like that and i am committing
    a sin by doing that and the path i have done will not effect me. i just wanted
    to see if there are other people who also feel the same way and if there is
    anything we can do...like what type of ardaas can we do..i.e. should we just
    ask the Almighty to forgive us for thinking like that or is there something
    more. If i have offended anyone i am sorry.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    calnexin ji

    First of all welcome to SPN! You have started your SPN encounters with a good question -- a fundamental question for all Sikhs to contemplate.

    Karma is not understood by Sikhs quite the way it is in other traditions. In Sikhism All of Creation is God's play. He wrote the script and the script is there in the background. He knows who will make the right choices.

    Key is this idea. Karma is not lurking around you and waiting to jump you from behind with negative circumstances in the form of Divine retribution- as in God gets even through karma-- and then, you will be caught in the cycle of life and death.

    It is my understanding that our God gives all of us an opportunity to choose the path of Dharma (righteousness) and what Gurbani calls Destiny-- to merge with His Light. We can choose Destiny. Our choice is evident in our actions on this earth.

    He knows who will make the right choice and these individuals are called in Gurbani the Siblings of Destiny. They choose Him.

    He is our parent, we are His children. He provides His children with the opportunity to reach beyond our karma and be liberated.
     
  4. pk70

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    QUOTE "He is our parent, we are His children. He provides His children with the opportunity to reach beyond our karma and be liberated.
    karma
    It is my understanding that our God gives all of us an opportunity to choose the path of Dharma (righteousness) and what Gurbani calls Destiny-- to merge with His Light. We can choose Destiny. Our choice is evident in our actions on this earth."

    Aad0002 Ji

    I must applaud you to put the idea in precise statement. Chance is given to every one, it depends who takes advantage of it and over come that weakness which keeps dragging us otherwise. Seeking His blessings by following Guru also becomes a part of destiny, after all His will changes Karma too.
     
  5. spnadmin

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    pk70 ji

    As you said, after all His will changes Karma too.

    It is easy to forget this part of His Play. Most important is that we, whenever tempted to judge ourselves and others, always try our best to understand that we cannot substitute our impressions and judgment for His. This is very hard.

    calnexin ji asked this, should we just ask the Almighty to forgive us for thinking like that or is there something more. If i have offended anyone i am sorry.

    My answer: Ask God to forgive us and ask Him to teach us.
     
  6. pk70

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    Of course aad0002 ji, actually this is the major difference of Karma stated by Guru Nanak and Hindu thought. When we forget His play, we are directed by ego( I , me ), that also falls under His play interestingly as per Guru Nanak.
     
  7. ekmusafir_ajnabi

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
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    How is karmic life of a sikh different to that of a Hindu. Are a sikhs desires different to a Hindu? Is asikh born different to a Hindu? Does the food eaten by a hindu not under the same telescope as for sikh. Does it also not fall under Lekhe saas giraas? Gurus want us to think "Broadband" and not become "Narrowminded" Think about it!

     
  8. ekmusafir_ajnabi

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    The lesson one needs to learn is "sabbar" CONTENTMENT. Be contented with what you have. The other person having a better life is no more than an illusion. You only see one side of it. If one was given the opportunity to be in his shoes, it will not take long for one to bounce back to you original self. Because what is behind the prosperity of another can be far worse than ones own. Learn "Contentment" what you have is what you deserve. To go for what does not belong to you can be considered a sin for which payments have to be made in the future.
     
  9. pk70

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    ekmusfir-ajnabi ji

    There is nothing about being narrow minded. As stated by second Guru( GGS Ji 1237), Veda- teachings is about to give and get back but Gurbani doesnt say that, instead, it leads the seeker to seek Gyan through Guru to know HIM, no trading like give this here,get that there as per Veda thought Karma( whatever is done, cannot be changed, destiny cannot be changed), Guru says, HE can rewrite Karma. Hindus are not target in that statement of mine but only the difference of Karma in Guru Nanak and Hindu thought of karma. Nothing more to imply to that statement. By thinking that way, we just accept that karma is changed if HE wills unlike other thought. I wonder why you are bringing Hinduas and Sikhs comparison!
     
  10. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Aad Ji,

    Thank you for sharing the forgiving answer. As Mother Theresa said, we need to forgive ourselves first and then more on.

    How to move on, Aad Ji when all we have been doing is seeing God as a separate entity.
    Gurbani teaches us, enlightened people teach us ONLY ONE THING. That we are that drop which originates from the Ocean of Love and Mercy. There is where we belong. Only way back is by discarding this physical garment. Death has become a very dreadful word. That's because we haven't ingrained the concept that we are in an alien land. A temporary abode. Our permanance is the Ocean of L&M.

    That's our natural habitat. Going home should be a joyous ocassion. Relatives cry when one leaves this stage of separate-ness. That's why Kabeer mentioned Aisee Karnee Kar Chalo, Hum Hassey Jag Roye - "do such deeds that I will laugh and people will cry in the end."
     
  11. spnadmin

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    Well, NamJap ji

    I agree.

    If we cannot forgive ourselves, then we won't be able see that God has forgiven us. If we cannot forgive ourselves, then we cannot forgive any one else. If we cannot see that God forgives us when we ask, then we are lost in despair. If we cannot forgive any one else, then we are lost in enmity.

    This something that I am working on. If I am blind and cannot see that God has forgiven me, then I will never overcome separation -- from myself, from others and from Him. Can be very overwhelming. It goes back to the Bani of Guru Teg Bahadur who has written the most about this. ;)
     
  12. Sikh80

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    Respected Seniors ji,

    It is agreed to that forgiveness leads to humility and that is the stage to reach 'equipoise' and look sorrow and happiness as two sides of coin. Good health poor health, cold and hot are all HIS gift. So why carry the guilt of having not forgiven someone. We are to reach the state of bliss by developing this 'equipoise' but forgiving everyone including those who do not intend good to us.They are all acting as per that HE wants of them.
     
  13. Randip Singh

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    The way I look at it is, Godd gives me what I need, and not what I want. My needs are met, but my wants are never met!:ice:
     
  14. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Karam is karam. Everyone wants to redefine terms they find objectionable because due to politics in kalyug Sikhs are allergic to anything from ancient Indic past for fear of losing identity.

    It gets sort of silly after awhile. If karam doesn't mean karam, then what does it mean? If dasm duar doesn't mean dasm duar then what does it mean? Hinduism doesn't own these concepts any more than Sikhism has a monopoly on God.

    What is different is we have Guru. We have Gurbani. We have Naam. Everything that was true in the past hasn't stopped being true and that's why these timeless concepts are used to explain Sikh teaching. If they didn't have true meaning, Guruji would have used truer words and not made a confusion out of using old words with new concepts. Reincarnation still means reincarnation. Only Guru has corrected errors of the past and clarified the highest understanding which was not available in any previous age or scripture. Sikh teaching is different from Hinduism because of what it adds, not because of what it takes away.

    It is true that evil is rewarded and good is persecuted in kalyug. Gurbani says:



    ਰਾਤੇ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਐਸਾ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਡੀਠਾ ॥੬॥
    raathae kee nindhaa karehi aisaa kal mehi ddeethaa ||6||
    One who is imbued with the Lord's Love is slandered - his is what I have seen in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||6||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 229


    In the kalyug religion is corrupted and only the Naam can give you mukti.


    ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਆ ਪਗ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਖਿਸਕੀਆ ਪਗੁ ਚਉਥਾ ਟਿਕੈ ਟਿਕਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
    kalijug har keeaa pag thrai khisakeeaa pag chouthhaa ttikai ttikaae jeeo ||
    The Lord ushered in the Dark Age, the Iron Age of Kali Yuga; three legs of religion were lost, and only the fourth leg remained intact.

    ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
    gur sabadh kamaaeiaa aoukhadhh har paaeiaa har keerath har saanth paae jeeo ||
    Acting in accordance with the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the medicine of the Lord's Name is obtained. Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, divine peace is obtained.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 446


    The Kalyug is an evil age of cruelty, and until our karam is such we receive Guruji's Naam planted within, the healing of our disease of panj dhoots won't happen (seed will shatter) we are caught in the age and actually a part of the evil. This is why amrit alone isn't enough but we need to be obedient to the Gursikh practices, rehat code, or we corrupt our own seeking from impurities. Kalyug is a difficult age to find God. An easy age to lose consciousness of Him.



    ਸਚਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੂੜੁ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਕਲਿ ਕਾਲਖ ਬੇਤਾਲ ॥
    sach kaal koorr varathiaa kal kaalakh baethaal ||
    There is a famine of Truth; falsehood prevails, and the blackness of the Dark Age of Kali Yuga has turned men into demons.

    ਬੀਉ ਬੀਜਿ ਪਤਿ ਲੈ ਗਏ ਅਬ ਕਿਉ ਉਗਵੈ ਦਾਲਿ ॥
    beeo beej path lai geae ab kio ougavai dhaal ||
    Those who planted their seed have departed with honor; now, how can the shattered seed sprout?

    ਜੇ ਇਕੁ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਉਗਵੈ ਰੁਤੀ ਹੂ ਰੁਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
    jae eik hoe th ougavai ruthee hoo ruth hoe ||
    If the seed is whole, and it is the proper season, then the seed will sprout.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 468



    ਕਲਿ ਕਲਵਾਲੀ ਕਾਮੁ ਮਦੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਪੀਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
    kal kalavaalee kaam madh manooaa peevanehaar ||
    The Dark Age of Kali Yuga is the vessel, filled with the wine of sexual desire; the mind is the drunkard.

    ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਕਟੋਰੀ ਮੋਹਿ ਭਰੀ ਪੀਲਾਵਾ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
    krodhh kattoree mohi bharee peelaavaa ahankaar ||
    Anger is the cup, filled with emotional attachment, and egotism is the server.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 553



    ਕਲੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿੰਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ॥
    kalee andhar naanakaa jinnaan dhaa aouthaar ||
    In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, O Nanak, the demons have taken birth.
    8 Bihaagrhaa Guru Nanak Dev

    ਪੁਤੁ ਜਿਨੂਰਾ ਧੀਅ ਜਿੰਨੂਰੀ ਜੋਰੂ ਜਿੰਨਾ ਦਾ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
    puth jinooraa dhheea jinnooree joroo jinnaa dhaa sikadhaar ||1||
    The son is a demon, and the daughter is a demon; the wife is the chief of the demons. ||1
    ~SGGS Ji p. 556


    But this age is the best age because the highest level of spirituality and mukti can only be obtained in it, so great is the boat of Guruji's Naam. So don't worry too much about the fake world and temporary success and money. Everything is passing away. Cling to what doesn't fail you. Cling to what is most meaningful.


    ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਕਲਿ ਕਾਲੀ ਕਾਂਢੀ ਇਕ ਉਤਮ ਪਦਵੀ ਇਸੁ ਜੁਗ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
    chahu jugee kal kaalee kaandtee eik outham padhavee eis jug maahi ||
    Kali Yuga is called the Dark Age, but the most sublime state is attained in this age.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
    guramukh har keerath fal paaeeai jin ko har likh paahi ||
    The Gurmukh obtains the fruit, the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises; this is his destiny, ordained by the Lord.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਉਚਰਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥੨॥
    naanak gur parasaadhee anadhin bhagath har oucharehi har bhagathee maahi samaahi ||2||
    O Nanak, by Guru's Grace, he worships the Lord night and day; he chants the Lord's Name, and remains absorbed in the Lord's devotional worship. ||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 651



    ਦੁਖੁ ਕਲੇਸੁ ਨ ਭਉ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਹੋਇ ॥
    dhukh kalaes n bho biaapai gur manthra hiradhai hoe ||
    Suffering, agony and fear do not cling to one whose heart is filled with the GurMantra.

    ਕੋਟਿ ਜਤਨਾ ਕਰਿ ਰਹੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਰਿਓ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
    kott jathanaa kar rehae gur bin thariou n koe ||2||
    Trying millions of things, people have grown weary, but without the Guru, none have been saved. ||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 51



    ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
    dhukh dhaaroo sukh rog bhaeiaa jaa sukh thaam n hoee ||
    Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 469
     
  15. spnadmin

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    Sikh teaching is different from Hinduism because of what it adds, not because of what it takes away.
     
  16. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

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    Consider how we have pictures of our loved ones. But our loved one isn't a picture. So people have a concept in their mind that is limited by the physical nature. Some people worship the picture frames as god as in lifeless stone idols. This is idolatry because it's so far removed from the reality. Other people worship the pictures themselves, as in the Hindu devtas. It's closer because the Hindu devtas derive from the One Parabrahm and are a part of the reality of existence, how the materiality came into being. It's closer but it's still a shadow of the One true Lord.

    Consider how light descends into a prism to give of different colors. When the Parabrahm created the manifest reality of uncountable universes it was the nirgun Light descending into a prism. The prism reflects different colors of the One Light. Because of the nature of material reality, the Hindu devtas are high spiritual beings, reflections of the One God Himself, but they are trapped in Maya. If they were not, existance would not exist.

    What Sikhism doesn't take away is the reality and role of Hindu devas and Vedic concepts like reincarnation, Parabrahm, avataars, etc. That's why their used all over Gurbani. What Sikhism adds is what Hinduism doesn't have. Hinduism doesn't have the complete understanding because it doesn't have Satguru, Gurbani and therefore doesn't have Shabad-Jyot of this manifestation which is so high it wasn't Vishnu avataar but nirgun Parabrahm itself which manifest as the Shabad which vibrates from the Naad, and is in reality anehad Shabad, meaning in a higher dimensional reality than any physical sound. It vibrates from dimensions where sound merges with light and vibrates without physical means. In this Dark Age, the Shabad is brighter than the brightest brightness of what has ever come before in any previous age. This is because the darkness is so great, it is the only way for the Light of God to be a boat when every leg of religion has failed and the whole world is drowning in darkness of ignorance (lack of intuitive perception of the Truth, Satinaam.) In this way Hinduism could never be Sikhism. And Sikhism could never be Hinduism. But Truth remains the Truth. Just some Truth is higher dimensional reality and thus more complete, as in the Shabad-Naam which is both nirgun and sargun manifestation of the One True Reality which permeates all created things, and exists as higher dimensional spiritual Light shining in lower physical existance.

    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
  17. Archived_Member4

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    It’s simple as this; in your own perceptive what do you consider good and bad. Then ask yourself why you consider it good and bad. If it falls into one of the five thieves (material attachment, anger, lust, ego, greed) then obvious it’s not a good or a right. If you want something then strive for it and you will see the end result.
     
  18. pk70

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    Sikh80 Ji

    Wonderful, we should forgive and forget but still we can ignore to avoid unnecessary confrontation, a lesson from Seventh Nanak.
     
  19. spnadmin

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    Sikh80 ji

    I agree as well -- forgiveness is a gift that teaches humility and more.
     
  20. pk70

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    Bhain ji, you might have studied Islam, there is only oneness of God, many of Muslims in India are worshiping Peer etc just as Hindus do, they have their own Dargah to worship, they sing praises of those peer as if they were like Hindu Avtars who would know everything. That very act is against Islam’s basic principle. If any one has to correct that practice, they have to talk about those peer and put them in context of infinity of Allah. That is what Guru ji did. Who were around Guru ji’s? Hindu and Muslims. He addressed all of them in context of Infinity of GOD and presented a better way to live by following His Ordinance and doing good deeds to achieve spiritual goals, all Shabadas addressed to Muslims state that fact. Some followed and some didn’t. Reference must be given to take away the importance of those who previously established in a society as big. Not a single support is found in GGS ji that verifies their existence as reality ( only stories are stated as they were quoted) or their ability to lead to HIM.. Some are stuck with these words but some still can see the interpretation( in GGSJi itself) of these characters as failures and( as per story goes about them, if good things are done, credit is given to HIM) were deep into Maya( you admit that), as long as Maya dominates any one, spirituality and its achievement is impossible as per Gurbani claim. AS Guru ji did, that is the best way, give the prevailed story and then logically add the truth

     

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