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Gurus Is Guru Granth Sahib Revealed By God? - Responding to Challenges to Sikhi

Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by kaur-1, Nov 14, 2006.

  1. kaur-1

    kaur-1
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    By Manvir Singh Khalsa

    Q: The Quran claims to be a Revelation from God. However, neither the Guru Granth Sahib nor the authors claim it to have been revealed by God. So how can a Sikh claim their Scripture to be a Divine Revelation from God?

    A: Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is a Divinely Revealed Scripture. There are many occasions when this is made clear in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee:

    ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
    "O (Bhai) Lalo! As the Lord’s word comes to me so I deliver it."
    (Ang 722, SGGS)

    [​IMG]

    Gurbaani has been revealed by Vaheguru through the human living Gurus. Vaheguru spoke through Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. Even Guru Nanak Sahib Ji states that his Guru is the ‘Shabad’, the Divine Word. Guru Ji says:

    ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
    "The Divine Word is the Guru, and my mind in reflective meditation, the disciple"
    (Ang 943)

    Guru Amar Daas Sahib jee, the Third Nanak, goes one step forward in describing Gurbaani, the Shabad, the Divine Word, as the embodiment of the Truth, the embodiment of Vaheguru (the wondrous Lord) Himself:

    ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
    "Hail, Hail, the Word of the Guru, which is the embodiment of the Formless Lord Himself; there is none other, nothing else to be reckoned equal to it."
    (Ang 515)

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਹੁ ਕਢਾਏ ॥
    “O Gursikhs! Know that the Baani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.”
    (Ang 308)


    Where there is the Word of God, there is God Himself. Where is there is the Truth, there the True One pervades:
    ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
    "In the realm of truth (where truth pervades), there pervades the Formless Lord."
    (Japji Sahib, Ang 8)

    Guru Arjan Dev Sahib jee, the Fifth Nanak, reiterates the message of the First Nanak that whatever is written in Gurbaani, the message of the Shabad Guru, is not from the Guru himself but it is direct from Vaheguru:

    ਹਉ ਆਪਹੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਮੈ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਹੁਕਮਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥
    "I myself know not what to say; all I speak is what the Lord commands."
    (Ang 763)

    Through Gurbaani, the Shabad, the Divine Word, Vaheguru speaks to us. The Formless Vaheguru communicated to the world through speaking through the Ten bodies of Guru Nanak Sahib jee. Now the Formless communicates to us through the Written Divine Word. The Guru is the embodiment of Vaheguru Himself.

    If we still have doubt whether Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is just a mere "Book", then Guru Arjan Dev Sahib jee’s voice speaks to us through Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee and says:

    ਪੋਥੀ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕਾ ਥਾਨੁ ॥
    "The Divine Scripture (Sri Granth Sahib) is the meeting place where one can meet the Transcendent Lord God."
    (Ang 1226)

    The Guru is saying that it is not just a "book", but recognises it as the ‘meeting place to meet the Transcendent Lord God’.


    --------------------
    Manvir Singh Khalsa

    Source: Discoversikhi.com GURBANI | REHAT | HISTORY Q&A Section
     
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  3. Lionchild

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    A very nice post, however i would like to add by saying that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a mere summarized view of gods power and is not what you call "direct" in a sense of from god. If gods knowledge could be placed in a book, why would it only fit in a few hundred pages? It wouldnt, however, the gurus did their best by writting down what they could, a reflection of gods knowledge and love.

    With that said, "direct" in some ways, other ways no,
     
  4. kaur-1

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki Fateh,

    I dont get you comment. Did you even try and understand the article by Veerji Manvir Singh ji?

    Your remarks:
    - "mere summarized view"?

    -"s not what you call "direct" in a sense of from god" ?

    -"however, the gurus did their best by writting down what they could". ?

    Are you saying in the last comment that the Sikh Gurus were not capable of assimilating the divine word and subsequently to write it down in Sri Guru Granth Sahib?
    Do you even know what a Sikh Guru is?
     
  5. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    The question to ask is WHAT is NOT revealed/inspired by IK ONG KAAR?

    Tejwant
     
  6. Lionchild

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    Obviously or i would not comment. The Sikh gurus did write down and assimilate the divine word of god. What I’m saying is that mere humans could never fully understand gods power as we are just mere specks of dust to him (if you don't understand that, then read some of the bible). Of course I know what I Sikh guru is, I have been practising sikhi for over a year now. :}:):
     
  7. kaur-1

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    "Your remarks:
    - "mere summarized view"?
    -"s not what you call "direct" in a sense of from god" ?
    -"however, the gurus did their best by writting down what they could". ?

    Are you saying in the last comment that the Sikh Gurus were not capable of assimilating the divine word and subsequently to write it down in Sri Guru Granth Sahib?
    "


    As per my previous post, You are saying that Sikh Guru's were not capable of assimilating the divine word. Please explain.

    Your reply contradicted what you previously stated.!

    No thanks, I do not need to read the Bible. I think its you who are confusing the teachings in the Bible verses the divine words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.!

    BTW Veerji, Its good that you are a practising Sikh.:)
     
  8. Lionchild

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    Did i say that they those words or did you insert them yourselves. Anyways, sure you don't need to read the bible, however it helps to understand other peoples beliefs.

    Anyways, gods power can't all be summed up in one book or script. In case you havnt noticed, i'm philosophizing on this subject, so please do not take offense, just add to the topic Kaur-1
     
  9. kaur-1

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    As regards to your first comment, Please read your initial reply to answer your question.

    As regards to your second comment, for your info, I attended a Catholic School in a Muslim country for many years and therefore do have some degree of knowledge in these religion and culture!..

    As regards to your last comment, yes I do agree Gods Power, as you put it, cant be summoned up in one Holy Book, in the Sikh faith, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, as Sikhs treat their holy scriptures "Guru/Shabad Guru".



    But lets not divert from the original reason for posting this article:

    Original post:

    "Q: The Quran claims to be a Revelation from God. However, neither the Guru Granth Sahib nor the authors claim it to have been revealed by God. So how can a Sikh claim their Scripture to be a Divine Revelation from God?

    A: Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is a Divinely Revealed Scripture. There are many occasions when this is made clear in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee:

    ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
    "O (Bhai) Lalo! As the Lord’s word comes to me so I deliver it."
    (Ang 722, SGGS)

    To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

    Gurbaani has been revealed by Vaheguru through the human living Gurus. Vaheguru spoke through Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. Even Guru Nanak Sahib Ji states that his Guru is the ‘Shabad’, the Divine Word. Guru Ji says:

    ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
    "The Divine Word is the Guru, and my mind in reflective meditation, the disciple"
    (Ang 943)

    Guru Amar Daas Sahib jee, the Third Nanak, goes one step forward in describing Gurbaani, the Shabad, the Divine Word, as the embodiment of the Truth, the embodiment of Vaheguru (the wondrous Lord) Himself:

    ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
    "Hail, Hail, the Word of the Guru, which is the embodiment of the Formless Lord Himself; there is none other, nothing else to be reckoned equal to it."
    (Ang 515)

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਹੁ ਕਢਾਏ ॥
    “O Gursikhs! Know that the Baani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.”
    (Ang 308)


    Where there is the Word of God, there is God Himself. Where is there is the Truth, there the True One pervades:
    ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
    "In the realm of truth (where truth pervades), there pervades the Formless Lord."
    (Japji Sahib, Ang 8)

    Guru Arjan Dev Sahib jee, the Fifth Nanak, reiterates the message of the First Nanak that whatever is written in Gurbaani, the message of the Shabad Guru, is not from the Guru himself but it is direct from Vaheguru:

    ਹਉ ਆਪਹੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਮੈ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਹੁਕਮਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥
    "I myself know not what to say; all I speak is what the Lord commands."
    (Ang 763)

    ..............."

    Read the original post above for the rest.

     
  10. kaur?princess?

    kaur?princess?
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    Does this mean that the Guru Granth sahib is also a revelation from God? I did believe that before but now when this topic came up... if all the scriptures claim to be messages or I don't know how to term it revelations from God, then why are they so different? :{-:)
     
  11. navroopsingh

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    The Quran and the Bible, if im not misinformed, were not written by either Jesus Christ or Mohammed. If im not misinformed again isnt The guru Granth Sahib the only one "written" by those who started and preached the faith? If anything the sikh's final guru is obviously the only religion with a pure scripture that has not fallen to filthying from later leaders. Not saying anything about the Dasam Granth though...
     
  12. kaur?princess?

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    Thanks for your response... but my questions wasn't asked for you to tell me what i should or shouldn't know... but no problem.. some people like going out of their ways. Thanks... a lot. :roll:
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Dear lionchild ji,
    Gurfateh.

    Such comments as yours...are a sure fire way to get a lot of.."fellow sikhs" riled up..and up in arms..However I am NOT one of those...

    1. in SGGS..Gurbani by Bhagat kabir Ji declares...OH BRAHMIN...If you are "so special..and all that you claim to be...WHY didnt YOU enter this World by any OTHER way than ALL of us. Gurbani is FOR ALL...The SIKH GURUS never claimed to be anything they were NOT...and this GURBANI applies equally to them...Beginning with Guur nanak ji..all ten Gurus Sahibaans came to this world the SAME way all of us do..and LEFT it the same way we all do. This is in no way implies that we are all "equal" to them in any way...it just means they followed HUKM to the Letter...Hukmeh andar SABH KO..HUKME Bahr na KOI ( NO ONE is above HUKM..including them...)

    2. When Guru nanak ji travelled all the Way to MECCA..to impart the valuable divine message that ALLAH is NOT CONFINED to one Place. In SGGS..Gurbani by bhagat ji asks..IF Allah is taking care of the WEST..and Hindu God is taking care of the EAST..WHO is taking care of NORTH and SOUTH ?? ( Leave aside the Billions of UNIVERSES and Galaxies...et al for the moment !!)
    NOW SIKHS have "CONFINED" WAHEGURU..to "SACH KHAND"...Sri Harmandar sahib Amritsar..et al ....and to the Pages of SGGS as well..IF "Waheguru " is confined to Sach khand..who is taking care of...all over again...??? IF GURBANI "condemsn" having and going to "TEERATHS"..why have we Sikhs now begun to treat Gurdwars as TEERATHS to wash our sins...when Sikhism has NO concept of SINS to be washed by EXTERNAL BATHING..not a single tuk in SGGS instructs us to go to any teerath to bathe and wash our "sins"..yet we do..year and year out...Naavan Challeh teertheen !!! and we "dsicover" New Teeraths to increase travel agent buisness..lates discovery of late 2oth centurty..copy cat teerath of Hemkunt...

    3. When SGGS teaches us that the Human body...is of "nil value" after death..we take great pains to immerse its "holy ashes" in Keeratpur Sahib...hoping that this "Holy Place" will grant our loved one "Express Service"..in the Journey in the after world..so we have created a copy cat of Hardwaar..KiratPur..a "teerath" that the DEAD are forced to Visit !!

    4. No other religion in the world has "Charrawa"..OFFERINGS..except Hinduism and Sikhism. Hindus "worship" idols...so its Ok for them to OFFER their IDOLS worldly "goods" as OFFERINGS...clothes to wear, food to eat, gold jewellery to wear..lip stick, sindhoors, perfumes, etc etc etc ( disregard for the moment that stone idols cant use any of those offerings..BUT the "Managers" (Brahmins) certainly CAN and do use them to full benefit)..WE SIKHS have begun to "offerings" to SGGS too....Barfis and ladoos, jalebis and pakorras..rumallahs after rumallahs ( when entire buildings are full to the brim with unused rumallahs)..GOLD for Palkis, Domes, Marble for Gurdwaras..we offer expensive Cars for "Guru jis Sewaks".. Sants babas, jathedars..( read MANAGERS as in Brahmins for Hindus)..IF any footballer/singer/actor/entertainer..etc of any repute has to have a MANAGER...GOD certainly "needs" these MANAGERS to Market Him !!( disregard for a moment what GOD actually wants or needs..these Managers NEED all those offerings)

    5. So to "summarise"..YES you are 110% RIGHT thta it is IMPOSSIBLE to write ALL about GOD in 1430 pages of SGGS..GURBANI tells us that "e ven IF all the OCEANS became INK..and ALL the Forests became paper...it cant be done..Even IF every single thing with a tongue in the moth had 20 billion additional tongues...God cant be "fully described"..in addition to the Bhagats and the ten Gurus in human form..the "paper medium" was the best thing to spread Gurbani Message..and GURU JI took Full Advantage of thsi MEDIUM to spread the Message.....until NOW...now it is the Electronic Media..computers, internet, cds, dvds micro drives..et al..NOW the SGGS divine Message..FLOATS 24/7 over the World's INTERNET ELECTRONIC AIRWAYS/Satellite waves..et al....BUT some of the same SIKHS are having ahard time leaving the concept of the "MEDIUM of SGGS prepared by guru arjun Ji/Guru Gobind Singh Ji"...behind. They cant realise that in 1708 THAT MEDIUM was the BEST..Now better mediums are abound....and the DIVINE MESSAGE cannot be "locked up" in one outdated medium/Language/Script...it is time to Release it into the Air !!! for everyone to benefiot from its cool soothign RAINFALL...as Manna from Heaven..

    I hope i have not bored you..with the length of my ramblings..if so please do forgive an old man....The Night is LONG..and I have many Promises to Keep...

    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
  14. Lionchild

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    Thnaks, this is a very good reply, my post was not to get sikhs "riled up" but I was merely PHILOSOPHIZING on the matter, of course, people will take it the wrong way.

    Anyways, it was meant to get people to think deeper on the SGGS.
     
  15. Manvir Singh Khalsa

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    Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is the only religious scripture written by its prophets, i.e. the Guru’s themselves. No other religion can claim this. The Quran was written not by a prophet, but 30 years after Hazrat Muhammad passed away. Hazrat Muhammad himself was illiterate, so did not write anything. But the Kaa’ba and the Hajj is also a form of big idol worship. The Bible was written by the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, none of them contemporaries of Jesus and written at least 60 years after Jesus.

    Max Arthur Macauliffe, an English writer, delivered a speech at Akaal Bunga, Amritsar in 1899:
    "There is another point to the merit of the Sikh religion that the founders of other religions in this world never wrote even one line with their own hands. You might have heard that there was a very famous Greek philosopher called Pythagoras who had many followers, but he never left behind anything written by him from which we could have known about the principles of his sect. After him came the second Greek philosopher named Socrates who was born in 500 B.C. He became a very famous religious leader who claimed that he was receiving Divine instructions from God within himself, which persuaded him to do good and prohibited from doing any evil deeds. But he too never left anything behind written by him, which could have shed light on his philosophy and its principles. Whatever we know about him, has only come through the writings of his follower, Plato. Besides there came Mahatma Buddh in India and he never wrote anything with his hands. Then came Christ who did not write anything himself either. His teachings are only known through the Bible, which was written by others. Then came Muhammad who was illiterate who also did not write down anything. However the Sikh Gurus acted quite opposite to all these religious leaders that they themselves dictated their message of Truth and compiled Guru Granth Sahib. In this respect the Sikh religion is far ahead than others."
     
  16. Bijla Singh

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    In japji Sajib it is clearly stated that Waheguru resides in Sachkhand but His light is everywhere. Just like the sun is at one place but its light is spread all over. The creation has its limits and one day it will be destroyed. Does this mean that God will also die? He has always existed even before the creation and will continue to exist after the destruction of the creation. Sachkhand is the place of truth where Waheguru (pure truth) resides.
     
  17. shearwater

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    Christians believe that the Bible was given in the following manner:

    2 Timothy 3:16 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


    2 Peter 1:20 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
     
  18. spnadmin

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    Shearwater ji

    This thread is Sikh-gurus. Your post is more appropriate for Interfaith Dialogs. Please add something of relevance to the thread or the post will be deleted. Thank you.
     
  19. Archived_Member4

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    This is such a foolish thing to say. For starters Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the eternal Guru. All of Gods knowledge is attained in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The reason to this is because the Shabad Guru; Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji goes on forever. I can repeat Ik Onkar once then again then again and still i won't get the whole message. I can repeat Waheguru hundreds millions of times and still I won't get the whole message. The shabad Guru goes on forever and its attained as Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is 1430 angs of the eternal Shabad Guru.
     

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