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Is brain-death real death?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Prabjyot Kaur, Jul 11, 2005.

  1. Prabjyot Kaur

    Prabjyot Kaur
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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh

    With heavy heart, I share with the Saadh Sangat that a dear friend of mine has been pronounced ‘brain-dead’ after a brain stroke that she suffered Friday. After seeing her on the life-support many questions arose in my mind. I will really appreciate if Saadh Sangat can exchange their views as per Gurmatt.

    Is the ‘brain dead’ person actually dead as per Gurmatt? If dead, the life support machines are not prolonging anything. If brain death is real death then person's soul is no longer there, just the body. Humans have spiritual soul, the body and soul are not separate. We are "embodied souls"; the body and soul are intrinsically united. How can the body continue to breathe, the heart beat, and blood flow to the organs, keeping them healthy, if the person is not alive? Machines cannot do all this work: they can pump air into the person and can stimulate the heart to beat, but they cannot cause the exchange of oxygen to happen at the tissue level. Eventually, when the person does die, no machine in the world can keep this process going. Does this not tell us that there is something more to death than mere "brain death"?

    How can we, as family-friends, help the soul while the body is still on life-support? Is crying around her pains her more? She can’t hear us, so doing Simran/paath around her is still assisting her soul?
     
    #1 Prabjyot Kaur, Jul 11, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2005
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  3. Jogindar Singh Kaur

    Jogindar Singh Kaur
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    Waheguruji ka Khalsa, Waheguruji ke Fateh,

    First, my sympathies to you and your friend's loved ones, Prabjyotji. My thoughts and prayers are with you, may Akal Purakh ease the pain of your loss.

    Only my opinion, but what I've seen of death (too much, I lost many friends to AIDS) is that when someone is put on life support, it is the machine that is doing all the work. Sure, oxygen is being exchanged, but only because a breathing tube is pumping oxygen into the lungs for that purpose. In so many ways the brain is important; it is not only the seat of our consciousness but it also regulates all sorts of autonomous systems. Once the brain is gone, there is nothing that will keep those systems going outside of machines.

    Still, touch sensation is still there to some extent; it can never hurt to touch your friend to show her affection and comfort. And I can't imagine Simran would be nothing but helpful, not only for her but for those of you with her.
     
  4. Prabjyot Kaur

    Prabjyot Kaur
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    Thank you Joginder Bhanji for your words of comfort and answer to my question. Guru Raakha!
     
  5. Arvind

    Arvind
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    Prabjyot ji,

    May He give courage to all to face this tough situation. Regarding the issue raised, I have no idea.

    Regards.
     
  6. Prabjyot Kaur

    Prabjyot Kaur
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    Thank you Arvind Virji.

    swrMg mhlw 9 ]

    khw mn ibiKAw isau lptwhI ]
    Xw jg mih koaU rhnu n pwvY ieik Awvih ieik jwhI ]1] rhwau ]
    kW ko qnu Dnu sMpiq kW kI kw isau nyhu lgwhI ]
    jo dIsY so sgl ibnwsY ijau bwdr kI CwhI ]1]
    qij AiBmwnu srix sMqn ghu mukiq hoih iCn mwhI ]
    jn nwnk BgvMq Bjn ibnu suKu supnY BI nwhI ]2]2]



    hy mn ! qUµ ikauN mwieAw nwl (hI) cMbiVAw rihMdw hY ? (vyK) ies dunIAw ivc (sdw leI) koeI BI itikAw nhIN rih skdw [ AnykW jMmdy rihMdy hn, AnykW hI mrdy rihMdy hn [1[rhwau[

    hy mn ! (vyK) sdw leI nwh iksy dw srIr rihMdw hY, nwh Dn rihMdw hY, nwh mwieAw rihMdI hY [ qUµ iks nwl ipAwr bxweI bYTw hYN ? ijvyN b`dlW dI CW hY, iqvyN jo kuJ id`s irhw hY sB nwsvMq hY [1[

    hy mn ! AhMkwr C`f, qy, sMq jnw dI srn PV [ (ies qrHW) iek iCn ivc qUµ (mwieAw dy bMDnW qoN) suqMqr ho jwihNgw [ hy dws nwnk ! (AwK—hy mn !) prmwqmw dy Bjn qoN ibnw kdy supny ivc BI suK nhIN imldw [2[2[

    saarang mehlaa 9.

    kahaa man bikhi-aa si-o laptaahee.

    yaa jag meh ko-oo rahan na paavai ik aavahi ik jaahee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

    kaaN ko tan Dhan sampat kaaN kee kaa si-o nayhu lagaahee.

    jo deesai so sagal binaasai ji-o baadar kee chhaahee. ||1||

    taj abhimaan saran santan gahu mukat hohi chhin maahee.

    jan naanak bhagvant bhajan bin sukh supnai bhee naahee. ||2||2||



    O mortal, why are you engrossed in corruption?
    No one is allowed to remain in this world; one comes, and another departs. ||1||Pause||

    Who has a body? Who has wealth and property? With whom should we fall in love?


    Whatever is seen, shall all disappear, like the shade of a passing cloud. ||1||


    Abandon egotism, and grasp the Sanctuary of the Saints; you shall be liberated in an instant.


    O servant Nanak, without meditating and vibrating on the Lord God, there is no peace, even in dreams. ||2||2||


     
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Dear Bhen Ji,

    First of all let me also offer my dearest heartfelt condolences at this tragic event. It is not an easy cross to bear.

    Through out my life I have faced many such situations..and knowing that I am Gurbani Teacher people approach me for just the answers you seek....they seek "solace" in Gurbaani that somehow somewhere Guru Ji would give them the answers they seek so badly.

    Guru teg bahadur Ji tells us ...I am so surprised that people of this world can see their friends and relatives dying and departing this world right before their eyes...many have gone to the Crematoriums and seen with their own eyes the body burning to ashes....YET they all come back home..BELIEVING that this WONT happen to ME !!! what is happening right before them they dont beleive..BUT ask them about Waheguru and they will tell you..Who KNOWS ?? Who has really seen WAHEGURU ?? What is TEMPORARY..(world) these people REGARD as FOREVER..and what is FOREVER (WAHEGURU)..they dont regard as permanent/and even doubt it ??

    The Sad truth is that in the case of a brain dead person..the body is just a vegetable kept alive with the machines....the dasam Duar..the repository of the Soul is empty. Day after day the body will slowly waste away as the muscles cannot exercise and when some other vital organ fails..then even the machines cannot prolong life. What we must consider is the "Quality" of that life..the person cant hear us, cant feel, cant think, cant respond, cant do simran/paath/nitnem/// essentially just surviving on Bahrlaa SAHARA - external machines doing the work of some organs.

    This is the reason why Gurbani urges us to do NAAM SIMRAN..while we CAN...no one knows when this opportunity will be taken away from us..and then it will be too late..Fir Pachtaiyan kia kareh jad chirreahn chuglia khet ?? It is up to Waheguru when he wants his cheez back...He send us here with 10 Gifts and he can take them back any time He wishes..either one by one or all at once. Those that he takes ALL his gifts at once..DIE INSTANTLY..while those from whom he takes back these Gifts one by one...are in the situation of your friend.

    The Badar Ke chhayeen is an indication..in the shabad you quoted above. If you look at it carefully...the "SHADOW of a CLOUD" is not universally SHADY on all parts...on some parts of the PERIPHERY the shadow is "LIGHT"...in the centre it is DARKEST....Your friend is on the periphery..and the shadow will slowly take over in its entirety.

    Stay in Charreedkalla. DO a lot of Naam simran/Nam Jap at the bedside ( mostly it will help those doing it realise that how much time we have left ).

    Warmest Regards.

    jarnail Singh gyani
     
  8. Prabjyot Kaur

    Prabjyot Kaur
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    Thank you Jarnail Singh Virji for your comforting and detailed answer. The day I posted this message; a part of me was thinking the same way that her soul has left the body & hence warm body should not be lying there so to fool family and friends that since she is breathing; she is alive. Waheguru must have heard our Ardaas so family decided to remove the life support on 10th july sometime and I came to know of it after I posted the message.

    Yesterday was her funeral. Like you said we all attended it with the following kirtan and Antim Ardaas. I am sure she is with Akaal purkh & lies in peace. She was the person who touched each and everyone who so ever, ever got the chance to meet her. More than thousand friends attended her funeral and Antim Ardaas. She was everything anyone can imagine a woman can be - educationist, former army major, Punjabi school teacher, possesed melodious voice for doing kirtan, a celebration was incomplete without her dance, her laughter brought smiles on every face, she was a beautiful soul in a beautiful body. She spent her last hours doing 'raul' sewa in Akhandpath, following by langar sewa. It is while eating langar she had stroke.

    Following was the Hukum after her Antim Ardaas -
    DnwsrI mhlw 5 ]
    ijs kw qnu mnu Dnu sBu iqs kw soeI suGVu sujwnI ]
    iqn hI suixAw duKu suKu myrw qau ibiD nIkI KtwnI ]1]
    jIA kI eykY hI pih mwnI ]
    Avir jqn kir rhy bhuqyry iqn iqlu nhI kImiq jwnI ] rhwau ]
    AMimRq nwmu inrmolku hIrw guir dIno mMqwnI ]
    ifgY n folY idRVu kir rihE pUrn hoie iqRpqwnI ]2]
    Eie ju bIc hm qum kCu hoqy iqn kI bwq iblwnI ]
    Alµkwr imil QYlI hoeI hY qw qy kink vKwnI ]3]
    pRgitE joiq shj suK soBw bwjy Anhq bwnI ]
    khu nwnk inhcl Gru bwiDE guir kIE bMDwnI ]4]5]

    dhhanaasaree mehalaa 5 ||
    jis kaa than man dhhan sabh this kaa soee sugharr sujaanee ||
    thin hee suniaa dhukh sukh maeraa tho bidhh neekee khattaanee ||1||
    jeea kee eaekai hee pehi maanee ||
    avar jathan kar rehae bahuthaerae thin thil nehee keemath jaanee || rehaao ||
    a(n)mrith naam niramolak heeraa gur dheeno ma(n)thaanee ||
    ddigai n ddolai dhrirr kar rehiou pooran hoe thripathaanee ||2||
    oue j beech ham thum kashh hothae thin kee baath bilaanee ||
    ala(n)kaar mil thhailee hoee hai thaa thae kanik vakhaanee ||3||
    pragattiou joth sehaj sukh sobhaa baajae anehath baanee ||
    kahu naanak nihachal ghar baadhhiou gur keeou ba(n)dhhaanee ||4||5||

    Dhanaasaree, Fifth Mehl:
    Body, mind, wealth and everything belong to Him; He alone is all-wise and all-knowing.
    He listens to my pains and pleasures, and then my condition improves. ||1||
    My soul is satisfied with the One Lord alone.
    People make all sorts of other efforts, but they have no value at all. ||Pause||
    The Ambrosial Naam, the Name of the Lord, is a priceless jewel. The Guru has given me this advice.
    It cannot be lost, and it cannot be shaken off; it remains steady, and I am perfectly satisfied with it. ||2||
    Those things which tore me away from You, Lord, are now gone.
    When golden ornaments are melted down into a lump, they are still said to be gold. ||3||
    The Divine Light has illuminated me, and I am filled with celestial peace and glory; the unstruck melody of the Lord's Bani resounds within me.
    Says Nanak, I have built my eternal home; the Guru has constructed it for me. ||4||5||

     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Dear Bhen Ji,

    Waheguru Ji ak Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh.

    MY ardass to Guru Ji... Wichhree rooh nu..AApneh charnann wich nivaas bakhshann..ate sanuu bhanna mannan da bal bakhshann. Ghalleh aweh nanaka saddeh uthee jaheh...Waheguru Has recalled His beautiful servant back to His court. Please convey my regards to the family as well.

    Lets all take this opportunity to harden our resolve to do do a lot more Naam japps daily and keep stricter Rehit so that when its our time..we will have that much Naam Dhan wealth Kharcha to take along . This is actually the Best "gift" the departed can give us...as his/her departure serves as a reminder for us.

    Warmest regards to all.

    jarnail Singh Gyani
     
  10. jag1t

    jag1t
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    Dear Saadh Sangat ji,

    All questions are answered at once. Just be realised. There is none but ONE.

    jag1t
     
  11. hps

    hps
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    Dear sister,

    I am sorry to learn that your friend is not well.My sincerest sympathies.
    The following shall help understanding the phenomenon of life and death.Our physical body has a brain.

    The function of the body and the organs/limbs is governed by the brain.It controls the entire nervous system.If ,on any account, the brain is damaged to the extent that it can be called as 'dead' the entire nervous system fails and body stops functioning in the normal expected manner.

    However, till there is 'pranic ' force there is a life in the body and it is not dead.The sould remain very much in the body unless the physical body is declared 'dead' and that happens when the pranic force leaves the body.

    It is then that the soul leaves the body.

    Yes, doing 'paath' helps both , the one who is doing it and the one for whom it is done.

    hps
     
  12. Anoop

    Anoop
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    May WaheGuru Ji do the rest of the work. As humans we are not ready to meet with god. Those who have died, say your thanks to god for letting them spend an opportunity in this wonderful, mysterious, frightening, weird world. I hope your friend stays well with Waheguru Ji. And that is so true, we could die any time, it is up to Waheguru Ji, the one essence who controls the whole wonderful universe and the worlds upon worlds. Waheguru Ji wants you to 'move on' in life, let god take care of the rest, like god does with everything. Yup, we should do Simran when we have the opportunity. We should love and have passion for this life. God helps them who helps themselves aswell. Waheguru Ji is the Boss, Waheguru Ji, which is the Ultimate concious is our leader, Waheguru Ji is our one essence. Thnak god for every gifts we have, and during this journey on earth, thank Waheguru Ji everythinh you have done. God loves everyone, and He alone will take care of everything.

    May god bless your friend, and the every single soul either in earth form, or death form, for God is true, and wants us to pass this wild adventure, with different missions for everyone.

    Everyone is important in the Divine Light of god...Do your best, don't hope and look forward to much to things, just be simple and thankful.... Love nature, and people, try your best to do good, and even if you can't don't stress, because god hasnt finnished with you yet...we all have duties...Peace everyone...God bless!!!:):roll:
     

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