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Is Bhatt Bani Not Guru?

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by Pyramid, Mar 13, 2008.

  1. Pyramid

    Pyramid
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    Gurbani came from the True Source: Divine Lord. Gurbani is Gurprashaad. Guru Stamped it with word ‘GurPrasaad’ everywhere. Gurbani is compiled as a collection of Hymns collected from different Saints irrespective of color, cast, creed, time and religion. Jahangir wanted Guru Ji to delete Bani of other Saints from Granth Ji, But Guru Ji accepted to sit on the hot plate instead, let the opponents pour burning sand over His physical abode.


    Yesterday and today, das read a few very interesting comments on the net. Sharing with all to know everybody’s view:
    A very highly regarded, knowledgeable Gusikh telling a new Gursikh: “With all due respect I urge you not to take a a few Sikhs' blind theory as a true Sikh tenent. What they are doing on this site they just select a few Guru waak or some Bhatt bani to prove their case that guru is God.”
    Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html
    Another Gursikh telling a Gursikh: "I am first and foremost a Sikh Historian who has studied patetrns and behavior within Sikhism. This concept of thinking Guru's are God is not new and emerges from time to time and is a hangover of our Hindu past."
    Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-43.html
    Another Gursikh Telling a Gursikh: ""Gur Parmeshar eko jaan". A true Guru will never say he is God but sometimes the Guru is left with no choice and for the sake of progress he will make a statement that can be misinterpreted by others. Now ***** is not going to move forward unless for him Guru is not God. "
    Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html
    Another Gursikh’s comments:In order to deabte this properly let us have the entire shabad from page”
    Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-42.html



    To das the above lines read like- don’t believe in some Bani and believe in some. It also reads that there are some Gur Waks or Bhatt Bani that is UNTRUE, NOT WORTH BELIEVING, or CORRUPT. It also read to das that all those Sikhs are blind who believe all the Bani to be True as IT IS. It also read to das that when Guru is telling one thing again and again that Guru and God are no different, one can’t believe it as it is Hindu faith. These lines also read to das that a mortal one has the capacity to debate(A debate is an arguement. People decide and discuss on differences. We compare, when we debate) over Gurbani Which(BANI) is written by Immortals(GURU). Because True Guru never call Himself God(seems like people are expecting Guru to state'I AM GOD'), we can't say Guru is God, even if He is telling the same truth in so many other ways.


    Guru tells us:

    AMg 52Page 52


    isrIrwgu mhlw 5 ] Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:


    sMq jnhu suix BweIho CUtnu swcY nwie ] O Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, listen: release comes only through the True Name.


    gur ky crx sryvxy qIrQ hir kw nwau ] Worship the Feet of the Guru. Let the Name of the Lord be your sacred shrine of pilgrimage.


    AwgY drgih mMnIAih imlY inQwvy Qwau ]1] Hereafter, you shall be honored in the Court of the Lord; there, even the homeless find a home. ||1||


    BweI ry swcI siqgur syv ] O Siblings of Destiny, service to the True Guru alone is True.


    siqgur quTY pweIAY pUrn AlK AByv ]1] rhwau ] When the True Guru is pleased, we obtain the Perfect, Unseen, Unknowable Lord. ||1||Pause||


    siqgur ivthu vwirAw ijin idqw scu nwau ] I am a sacrifice to the True Guru, who has bestowed the True Name.


    Anidnu scu slwhxw scy ky gux gwau ] Night and day, I praise the True One; I sing the Glorious Praises of the True One.


    scu Kwxw scu pYnxw scy scw nwau ]2] True is the food, and true are the clothes, of those who chant the True Name of the True One. ||2||


    swis igrwis n ivsrY sPlu mUriq guru Awip ] With each breath and morsel of food, do not forget the Guru, the Embodiment of Fulfillment.


    gur jyvfu Avru n idseI AwT phr iqsu jwip ] None is seen to be as great as the Guru. Meditate on Him twenty-four hours a day.


    ndir kry qw pweIAY scu nwmu guxqwis ]3] As He casts His Glance of Grace, we obtain the True Name, the Treasure of Excellence. ||3||


    guru prmysru eyku hY sB mih rihAw smwie ] The Guru and the Transcendent Lord are one and the same, pervading and permeating amongst all.


    ijn kau pUrib iliKAw syeI nwmu iDAwie ] Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, meditate on the Naam.


    nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||



    In this Shabad Guru Ji is telling us that Guru and Parmesar are the same one, permeating everywhere.


    AND


    AMg 49 Page 49


    isrIrwgu mhlw 5 ] Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:



    sMq jnhu imil BweIho scw nwmu smwil ] Meet with the humble Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, and contemplate the True Name.


    qosw bMDhu jIA kw AYQY EQY nwil ] For the journey of the soul, gather those supplies which will go with you here and hereafter.


    gur pUry qy pweIAY ApxI ndir inhwil ] These are obtained from the Perfect Guru, when God bestows His Glance of Grace.


    krim prwpiq iqsu hovY ijs no hOie dieAwlu ]1] Those unto whom He is Merciful, receive His Grace. ||1||


    myry mn gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] O my mind, there is no other as great as the Guru.


    dUjw Qwau n ko suJY gur myly scu soie ]1] rhwau ] I cannot imagine any other place. The Guru leads me to meet the True Lord. ||1||Pause||


    sgl pdwrQ iqsu imly ijin guru ifTw jwie ] Those who go to see the Guru obtain all treasures.


    gur crxI ijn mnu lgw sy vfBwgI mwie ] Those whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet are very fortunate, O my mother.


    guru dwqw smrQu guru guru sB mih rihAw smwie ] The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all.


    guru prmysru pwrbRhmu guru fubdw ley qrwie ]2] The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||



    ikqu muiK guru swlwhIAY krx kwrx smrQu ] How shall I praise the Guru, the All-powerful Cause of causes?


    sy mQy inhcl rhy ijn guir DwirAw hQu ] Those, upon whose foreheads the Guru has placed His Hand, remain steady and stable.


    guir AMimRq nwmu pIAwilAw jnm mrn kw pQu ] The Guru has led me to drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has released me from the cycle of birth and death.


    guru prmysru syivAw BY BMjnu duK lQu ]3] I serve the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, the Dispeller of fear; my suffering has been taken away. ||3||


    siqguru gihr gBIru hY suK swgru AGKMfu ] The True Guru is the Deep and Profound Ocean of Peace, the Destroyer of sin.


    ijin guru syivAw Awpxw jmdUq n lwgY fMfu ] For those who serve their Guru, there is no punishment at the hands of the Messenger of Death.


    gur nwil quil n lgeI Koij ifTw bRhmMfu ] There is none to compare with the Guru; I have searched and looked throughout the entire universe.


    nwmu inDwnu siqguir dIAw suKu nwnk mn mih mMfu ]4]20]90] The True Guru has bestowed the Treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. O Nanak, the mind is filled with peace. ||4||20||90||



    In the above shabad Guru Ji is calling Guru – Parbrahm in a literal sense.
    AND

    AMg 802 Page 802


    rwgu iblwvlu mhlw 5 Gru 2 XwnVIey kY Gir gwvxw Raag Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl, Second House, To Be Sung To The Tune Of Yaan-Ree-Ay:


    <> siqgur pRswid ] One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:


    mY min qyrI tyk myry ipAwry mY min qyrI tyk ] You are the Support of my mind, O my Beloved, You are the Support of my mind.


    Avr isAwxpw ibrQIAw ipAwry rwKn kau qum eyk ]1] rhwau ] All other clever tricks are useless, O Beloved; You alone are my Protector. ||1||Pause||


    siqguru pUrw jy imlY ipAwry so jnu hoq inhwlw ] One who meets with the Perfect True Guru, O Beloved, that humble person is enraptured.


    gur kI syvw so kry ipAwry ijs no hoie dieAwlw ] He alone serves the Guru, O Beloved, unto whom the Lord becomes merciful.


    sPl mUriq gurdyau suAwmI srb klw BrpUry ] Fruitful is the form of the Divine Guru, O Lord and Master; He is overflowing with all powers.


    nwnk guru pwrbRhmu prmysru sdw sdw hjUry ]1] O Nanak, the Guru is the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; He is ever-present, forever and ever. ||1||


    suix suix jIvw soie iqnw kI ijn@ Apunw pRBu jwqw ] I live by hearing, hearing of those who know their God.


    hir nwmu ArwDih nwmu vKwxih hir nwmy hI mnu rwqw ] They contemplate the Lord's Name, they chant the Lord's Name, and their minds are imbued with the Lord's Name.


    syvku jn kI syvw mwgY pUrY krim kmwvw ] I am Your servant; I beg to serve Your humble servants. By the karma of perfect destiny, I do this.


    nwnk kI bynµqI suAwmI qyry jn dyKxu pwvw ]2] This is Nanak's prayer: O my Lord and Master, may I obtain the Blessed Vision of Your humble servants. ||2||


    vfBwgI sy kwFIAih ipAwry sMqsMgiq ijnw vwso ] They are said to be very fortunate, O Beloved, who who dwell in the Society of the Saints.


    AMimRq nwmu ArwDIAY inrmlu mnY hovY prgwso ] They contemplate the Immaculate, Ambrosial Naam, and their minds are illuminated.


    jnm mrx duKu kwtIAY ipAwry cUkY jm kI kwxy ] The pains of birth and death are eradicated, O Beloved, and the fear of the Messenger of Death is ended.


    iqnw prwpiq drsnu nwnk jo pRB Apxy Bwxy ]3] They alone obtain the Blessed Vision of this Darshan, O Nanak, who are pleasing to their God. ||3||


    aUc Apwr byAMq suAwmI kauxu jwxY gux qyry ]


    O my lofty, incomparable and infinite Lord and Master, who can know Your Glorious Virtues?



    gwvqy auDrih suxqy auDrih ibnsih pwp Gnyry ] Those who sing them are saved, and those who listen to them are saved; all their sins are erased.


    psU pryq mugD kau qwry pwhn pwir auqwrY ] You save the beasts, demons and fools, and even stones are carried across.


    nwnk dws qyrI srxweI sdw sdw bilhwrY ]4]1]4]


    Slave Nanak seeks Your Sanctuary; he is forever and ever a sacrifice to You. ||4||1||4||

    In this Shabad again Guru Ji is showing us the same- there is no difference between Guru and God.



    For 40/50 years, Gurbani-as IT IS, has cleared all my doubts. I kept my eyes closed and looked at the World through Guru’s eyes. I never felt a need to disect Gur Bani. I have thousands of friends, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians, in India and Overseas, who have the same belief as I have.
    None of them who read Gurbani ever suggested me to practice this 'disection process' or 'Dont believe Bani in Literal Sense' theory. All believe in Bani –AS IT IS.

    Das always see Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s Insignia in each and every word of Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Stamped it with Guru- Brahmgyani Ki Gat Brahmgyani Jaaney- das vichara Guru da Pallaa phar ke kharaa(das is only holding Guru’s scarf), Guru knows the Gurprasaad.

    Gurbani is written for everybody, no mediator is needed to explain that. Guru, the immortal is talking to us, we dont need mortals describing it to us if it is true or not true.

    Metaphors used in Gurbani are all taken from regular human society- NOTHING IS OFF PLANET. Everybody can understand the meaning of the mataphors easily.

    Practicing Humility is most important for a seeker. In Gurbani Guru Ji states that we should even avoid calling ourselves a seeker. One has to be totally steeped in Humility, so how one can expect that any Saint will say-'I AM GOD'. Guru tells us:

    ਸਗਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਮਹਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ Among all persons, the supreme person is the one
    ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਿਟੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ who gives up his egotistical pride in the Company of the Holy.
    ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਨੀਚਾ ॥ One who sees himself as lowly,
    ਸੋਊ ਗਨੀਐ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ॥ shall be accounted as the highest of all.
    ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਸਗਲ ਕੀ ਰੀਨਾ ॥ One whose mind is the dust of all,
    ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਨਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਚੀਨਾ ॥ recognizes the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, in each and every heart.
    ਮਨ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਤੇ ਬੁਰਾ ਮਿਟਾਨਾ ॥ One who eradicates cruelty from within his own mind,
    ਪੇਖੈ ਸਗਲ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਾਜਨਾ ॥ looks upon all the world as his friend.
    ਸੂਖ ਦੂਖ ਜਨ ਸਮ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥ One who looks upon pleasure and pain as one and the same,
    ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਨਹੀ ਲੇਪਾ ॥੬॥ O Nanak, is not affected by sin or virtue. ||6||

    We mortals have no capacity to debate on Guru’s Word. Guru is Immortal, we are mortals:

    Guru Ji tells:


    AMg 310 Page 310



    pauVI ] Pauree:



    scu scw siqguru Amru hY ijsu AMdir hir auir DwirAw ] Truest of the True is the Immortal True Guru; He has enshrined the Lord deep within His heart.



    scu scw siqguru purKu hY ijin kwmu k®oDu ibKu mwirAw ] Truest of the True is the True Guru, the Primal Being, who has conquered sexual desire, anger and corruption.



    jw ifTw pUrw siqgurU qW AMdrhu mnu swDwirAw ] When I see the Perfect True Guru, then deep within, my mind is comforted and consoled.



    bilhwrI gur Awpxy sdw sdw Guim vwirAw ] I am a sacrifice to my True Guru; I am devoted and dedicated to Him, forever and ever.



    gurmuiK ijqw mnmuiK hwirAw ]17] A Gurmukh wins the battle of life whereas a self-willed manmukh loses it. ||17||


    Guru Ji is explaining in this Shabad that Satguru is immortal.







    Just to collect information on this issue:
    Das want to know how many more people out there think the need of-

    1. CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!),
    2. CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!),
    3. KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!),
    4. KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),
    5. CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!),
    6. UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES,
    7. FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL,
    8. KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS,
    exist.




    swD kI soBw swD bin AweI ]The glory of the Holy people is theirs alone;nwnk swD pRB Bydu n BweI ]8]7]O Nanak, there is no difference between the Holy people and God. ||8||7|| andnwnk bRhm igAwnI Awip prmysur ]6]O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||. .




    Thanks and Please Please Please give comment- positive or negative. Needed for a very good purpose. PM me if needed. Please share this on the other Sikh and non-Sikh forums as well. I will be making additions to it, as I find more information. Thanks again. :up:


    Tuhada das
    Yograj





    Garbani Translations are provided for the convienenace of non-punjabi knowing readers and source of the translations is- SIKHITOTHEMAX.COM
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Pyramid ji

    I am not ready to respond yet. Only to say that today is a GREAT day on the SPN forum. Why? Because this is the second time in 5 minutes that I am reading commentary that will have me thinking an entire day or more.

    Do not give up on this thread. You have given us some Gurbani to read and some questions to process carefully.

    I feel like we are in a study group. Thank you. See also Dalsingh's comments on another thread. They work really well -- comparative questions -- together.

    Thank you again from those of us who want something to wrestle with so we can grow. We may even disagree with you -- but the effort to think about things is what matters.
     
  4. pk70

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    aad0002 ji

    Bhattan dee bani was compiled in GGS Ji under the authority of Fifth Nanak ji?
    Your question is invalid.
    Rgds
     
  5. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    What is the meaning of we in your above line? On whose behalf are you stating it in plurals.?
     
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Sikh80ji

    Anyone who agrees with the statement. Would you like me to change we to something else?
     
  7. spnadmin

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    Pk 70 ji

    With all due respect, there is no such thing as a question that is invalid. We learn from asking questions. Also, did I ask a question? I don't think so. The question "Why?" was rhetorical -- only a question put to myself.

    What would you like me to modify in my remarks?

    ;)
     
  8. Archived_Member1

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    keeping in mind that i am new and have very little knowledge of these things...

    some of your questions beg answers from the heart, not the mind (MAN).

    i believe with my whole heart that gurbani can NOT be corrupt, it's simply not possible. God spoke through the mouth of Guru and Bhagat alike and all must be considered gurbani.

    SGGS ji has not had a single word changed since Guru Gobind Singh ji put his stamp on it. even before that, changing of a single word of gurbani was enough to earn huge punishment (see story of Ram Rai).

    i think that we understand gurbani as per our current spiritual state. if we are beginners (like me), we will understand the most simple things, the most obviously beautiful, the least complex first. as we grow in sikhi, we will gain more and more knowledge from the same words. we will understand deeper meanings and gain more understanding. this is why it's necessary to study/read/recite/listen to gurbani every day. to help us grow on this path.

    every person will understand according to his ability. some claim to understand better than others and use that to their advantage (fake babas/sants/etc). in my limited experience, gurbani reveals itself to us exactly at the right time, just when we need it most. :) no fake baba can explain anything better than my Guru, who always answers my questions when i am in need. :)


    hope this helps. sorry i can't contribute anything more eloquent. :)
     
  9. Sikh80

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    Kindly use singular to make the things simple. Yes, you can always use I instead of 'we'. You may not change it though as you have clarified.
     
  10. Archived_Member1

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    sometimes "we" makes more sense in the context of the post. sometimes :) are helpful to show mood/intent.

    perhaps it's best to allow us all to write as we feel most comfortable, as long as we're not causing anyone any harm... rather than making rules about grammar or icon usage?

    just a thought. sorry if it's offensive to you.
     
  11. Sikh80

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    When question asked tantamount to 'Is SGGS not Guru'?; it is invalid and unreasonable;the Thread title should have been changed by the moderators.There is strong presumption of mockery in the title of thread and any moderator should not encourage these kind of funny titles.

    Moderator should always state on this forum if the opinion expressed is that as
    A member
    or
    A moderator,

    Obviously, if it is feasible. This will help me to appreciate as to what Mod. wants to say.
     
  12. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    I am addressing to an individual here and not to all.

    You are free to feel the way you like. You could have even done without putting my comments in highlighted portion.
     
  13. spnadmin

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    Sik80 ji

    Speaking as mod, a forum member who is not a mod started the thread and gave the title to the thread. No moderator encouraged or discouraged the title. This forum is popular because we do not censor people unless there is outright breaking of forum rules.

    You are free to state your opinions. And you have done so. Others have to feel free to do so as well. That is what discussion is about - sharing ideas and points of view.

    Speaking again as mod -- Questions are not invalid. Without questions there is no discovery.

    Speaking again as mod -- Who should be allowed to speak? Who should be silent? What are the rules for deciding that? Who should decide?
     
  14. Sardara123

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    About use of the word 'WE':
    Advise had been given to Aad0002 Ji to change we to I.

    It is funny and it is clear partiality:

    Our dear member SSMDCX, always use word 'we' instead of 'I'. I couldn't find anybody advising him/her to change his/her 'WE' to 'I'.
    link to see his/her original 'we':

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/15034-vaheguru-is-gurmantar.html

    WHY AAD JI cant or shouldn't use the word 'we'?

    About the Title:
    Title goes fine with the matter being discussed. Pyramid Ji has provided REAL statements from REAL HUMAN BEINGS(I hope my information is correct that only humans can type on computers), provided valid links to the statements as well. These people are clearly stating that we should not use Bhatt Bani or certain Guru Waks to support our understanding of Gurmat.

    If it was me neech moorakh ever thought of writting this - my title would have been- 'ARE CERTAIN GURU WAKS, SANT BANI, BHAGAT BANI AND BHATT BANI in SGGS JI- NOT GURU?' or - 'IS ONLY SELECTED BANI IN SGGS JI- GURU?', again it is me moorakh talking:).

    I Like it the way Pyramid Ji has done it. I dont see a problem in the title. :)It makes the brain juices flow:).


    Pyramid Ji,
    BTW, Pyramid Ji I will reply to your post after a few months, I am leaving for a long trip today. I just couldn't stop myself from adding my two cents. As you advised me earlier, I need to practice on Sanjam more and more. Thanks for everything.
    Very Good Post.
    :up:Good Job:up:.
     
    #13 Sardara123, Mar 14, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2008
  15. Pyramid

    Pyramid
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    Thankyou everybody for your comments and concerns.

    Aad Ji, I wont give up, unless bulaava comes:p(I die)- I am 70+ :) . Or Website close down, oops (I am not wishing for it please dont take it wrong). Or the thread is deleted(a very very high possibility).

    Just a request to all Mods and Admin, If by any chance you change the Title, Please PM me about this. I will really appreciate it.


    :up: to all.

    Tuhada Das
    Yograj
     
  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    This is a thread that is provoking emotions. Which means that it is of deep importance to everyone here.

    I will keep an eye on things. Pyrmaid ji continue with your concise and thoughtful insights. They won't be deleted. It is OK Sikh80 ji to keep asking me to reflect on my role and language. Sardara ji -- enjoy your trip, and when you return bring back new wisdom. Jasleen ji you are writing so many inspiring things in these past two days - I read them with concentration and enjoyment.

    We, oops, sorry, I, don't think we (is that right?) would say anything other than we care about this subject. And so we are getting excited. Speaking in earnest.

    Questions are a sign of true faith. Guruji is bringing us together for this conversation.
     
  17. pk70

    pk70
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  18. Pyramid

    Pyramid
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    Thankyou much for a nice reply. You did a good job.
    Guru is THE BEST.

    ਜੋਤੀ ਹੂ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਾਪਦਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਗੁਰ ਬੂਝ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥
    jothee hoo prabh jaapadhaa bin sathagur boojh n paae ||
    Through His Light, God is revealed. Without the True Guru, understanding is not obtained.


    Tuhada Das
    Yograj
     
  19. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Quoted by Pyramid

    nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||


    In this Shabad, Guru Ji is telling us that Guru and Parmesar are the same one, permeating everywhere.


    Pyramid Ji,

    While I agree with your above-mentioned statement, there is a fine query that I need to know (from you) -
    nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||

    Nanak seeking the Guru's sanctuary. I can only come to the conclusion that Guru is the Celestial Sound Current which is called Shabad/Bani/Naam :

    Shabad Guru surti dhun chelaa: The Shabad is my Guru. By focusing consciousness on this celestial sound or Shabad, I become a desciple (sggs 943).


    Shabde upjai amrit Bani gurmukh aakh sunavaniyaa: The Ambrosial Word of the Guru’s Bani emanates from the Shabad. The Spiritual Being (Gurmukh) narrates it and preaches to the world (sggs 125).

    From the above-two lines, it can be understood that Nanak never called himself Guru. So why was there a change in understanding about what Guru is from the time of Guru Angad to the Bhatts ?​
     
  20. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    These are good questions -- Nam Jap I am very serious in saying this.

    There is a context that I myself, personally, need to keep in mind when following the discourse and making up my own mind -- that the transcendence of God and the immanence of God have to be kept in balance. After thinking about your questions, I am wondering if the Bhatts were balancing these ideas themselves in their poetry.

    So I await responses. This should discussion should take a very interesting turn.
     
  21. Pyramid

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    namjap Ji,

    When did this happen that Truth-Sat started to change forms? Guru Ji tells: Truth is for ever:). IN PEACE. formless.

    Answer to your query: as you asked from me , has to be my answer.

    By the way, what is the punishment if I say - I dont know the answer- as there is not any answer what so ever;).
    I clearly said in my very first post in this thread- I dont compare one ang of Guru ji with another. I am not sure what is confusing you namjap Ji.
    Guru is the same ONE GOD[​IMG]. ONE GURU all the way, every word of Guru Granth Sahib. Same concept is explained everywhere in different ways. I dont think you even tried to read my starting post in this thread. I have cleared this already that I see the same Guru in every word of Guru Ji. Even the title explains I dont see it as- bhatt bani or this Guru's Wak or that Guru's Wak. ALL BANI IS GURU JI, that's why I titled it-Is bhatt bani not Guru. I raised these concerns because people are separating Bani based on the composer(physical), and then creating differences. For me, composer is ONE AND THE SAME- WAHEGURU/GOD/GURU/SATGURU/SAINT/ALLAH/NARAYAN and any other name one can think of the supreme authority- Paarbrahm. All that is said is 'TRUTH'. Eka Bani Ek Gur-Satguru ki bani sat sat kar janahu gursikho har kartaa aap muho kadhaaei.

    Guru is Perfect, Pura Guru, Paarbrahm. He knows what has to go where. He put it together for us. I cannot even think of comparing bani. For me all have to be obeyed with head down. Comparing one Ang of Guru Ji with another will be 'debating'- I dont do that, SORRY[​IMG]. This is not my job to think that GURU ANGAD DEV JI SAID SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN BHATTS- If I even think to start thinking like this, I must die instead and get lost in some hell. Satguru Ki agyaa Sat Sat- Ikoankaar-all the way through.

    For das, Only Guru knows, das is nothing. I know nothing. I repeat myself again(as I did in my first post on this thread): I keep my eyes closed and look at this world through Guru Ji's eyes only[​IMG]. Living and sharing the Sat.


    And please you dont need to agree with me on anything to ask a question, namjap Ji. This worm can be questioned, scrutinized and punished without showing him a sugar candy, gulaam haazar hai.

    Tuhada Das
    Yograj
     
    #20 Pyramid, Mar 18, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2008

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