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Is Access Stable???

Discussion in 'Information Technology' started by bladelock, Nov 1, 2005.

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  1. bladelock

    bladelock
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    I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access is
    no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data. They told me to use
    "sequel" Where can I find how good access ready is? I've been using it for 5
    years, and never had a problem. Does anyone have feedback?
     
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  3. Van T. Dinh

    Van T. Dinh
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    Since you already had experience with Access, why would you listen to people
    who may not be as experienced as you?

    Just for the records, some regular respondents have reported databases with
    50 + users (20 + are constantly on the database) that work fine without any
    problem. OTOH, bad database design & implementation lead to all sorts of
    problems even for one user.

    --
    HTH
    Van T. Dinh
    MVP (Access)



    "bladelock" <bladelock@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:8B506C57-9C84-424E-8463-374E22130B82@microsoft.com...
    >I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access
    >is
    > no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data. They told me to use
    > "sequel" Where can I find how good access ready is? I've been using it for
    > 5
    > years, and never had a problem. Does anyone have feedback?
     
  4. Ron Hinds

    Ron Hinds
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    Guest

    "bladelock" <bladelock@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:8B506C57-9C84-424E-8463-374E22130B82@microsoft.com...
    > I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access

    is
    > no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data. They told me to use
    > "sequel" Where can I find how good access ready is? I've been using it for

    5
    > years, and never had a problem. Does anyone have feedback?


    It all depends on how good your code is. I had one with multiple back-end
    databases several hundred MB in size and 40-50 front-end users. It finally
    became a performance issue and I had to move the back-end to "sequel" (i.e.
    Microsoft SQL Server). Access should be easily able to handle 15 users. I
    can tell you that migrating your app to SQL Server is no walk in the park!
     
  5. '69 Camaro

    '69 Camaro
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    Guest

    > I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access
    is
    > no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data.


    Access in the hands of an expert database developer is very stable and far
    cheaper than any equivalently functioning alternative. Access in the hands
    of novice usually leads to numerous problems, and can become an utter
    disaster. The Microsoft Access development team has admitted that the most
    common cause for database corruption is sharing of a multiuser database file.
    Novices build an Access database for their own use and then later share it
    on the network -- without even considering splitting it into a front end and
    back end or networking issues. They have huge performance hits, because the
    database was pretty fast on the user's local machine so many required
    database application development techniques were ignored, like normalization,
    primary keys and indexes. And when the database curruption starts they blame
    Access, not the lack of skills of the developer.

    > I've been using it for 5
    > years, and never had a problem.


    That's because you've been doing many things correctly, whereas these
    naysayers haven't. They don't know how to avoid problems which, admittedly,
    takes some experience.

    If a multiuser database is designed correctly with a split front end and
    back end, all users are given Windows "Full control" security permissions on
    the network shared directory, and all users are only reading the records,
    instead of inserting, updating and deleting records, then the database could
    handle more than 100 concurrent users. (The actual limit is 255, but it's
    pretty hard to get close to that number.) However, real life doesn't give us
    such an ideal scenario.

    The number of concurrent users will be limited to the amount of network
    traffic and the amount of record lock contention. The record lock contention
    can be controlled to some degree by the efficiency of the database design and
    database application design. This is where experienced Access database
    developers are worth their weight in gold, because they can often create a
    fairly robust database system with Access, instead of creating a much more
    expensive database system with SQL Server, Oracle, or another RDBMS.

    So, the limit on concurrent users depends upon the needs of the database
    application, the amount of record lock contention, the network and how it
    handles traffic, and the expertise of the database developer. This limit
    could be from one user to 30 or more concurrent users in a reliable Access
    database system, depending upon all of these factors.

    HTH.
    Gunny

    See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
    See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips.

    (Please remove ZERO_SPAM from my reply E-mail address so that a message will
    be forwarded to me.)
    - - -
    If my answer has helped you, please sign in and answer yes to the question
    "Did this post answer your question?" at the bottom of the message, which
    adds your question and the answers to the database of answers. Remember that
    questions answered the quickest are often from those who have a history of
    rewarding the contributors who have taken the time to answer questions
    correctly.


    "bladelock" wrote:

    > I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access is
    > no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data. They told me to use
    > "sequel" Where can I find how good access ready is? I've been using it for 5
    > years, and never had a problem. Does anyone have feedback?
     
  6. Joseph Meehan

    Joseph Meehan
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    Guest

    bladelock wrote:
    >I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users,
    > Access is no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data. They
    > told me to use "sequel" Where can I find how good access ready is?
    > I've been using it for 5 years, and never had a problem. Does anyone
    > have feedback?


    It depends on many factors, but many of us, myself included have had
    more than 15 users without a problem. I would have to guess that common
    problems are poor design and a marginal LAN.

    --
    Joseph Meehan

    Dia duit
     
  7. Tony Toews

    Tony Toews
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    bladelock <bladelock@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

    >I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access is
    >no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data. They told me to use
    >"sequel" Where can I find how good access ready is? I've been using it for 5
    >years, and never had a problem. Does anyone have feedback?


    IMNSHO developers are seldom the cause of corruptions. Sharing the FE
    or the combined MDB in A2000 and newer is high as a cause. In the
    past OpLocks was definitely a cause but the SPs have been out long
    enough that this cause has significantly decreased. Intermittently
    flaky hardware is also a cause.

    Yes, SQL Server is a solution. However it can be expensive and
    increase the time to create a solution. Also many IT departments won't
    allow you access to their SQL Server systems without using their own
    staff. Which is somewhat understandable at times but obviously can be
    a pain.

    I have a former client running 25 users all day long on the MDB. That
    said only ten of them are actually doing updates.

    Tony
    --
    Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
    Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
    read the entire thread of messages.
    Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
     
  8. David S via AccessMonster.com

    Guest

    Just thought I'd say your civility speaks volumes for your professionalism,
    Joseph. It's been evident ever since he started posting that Aaron has been
    blinded by his own opinions and completely lacks the ability to communicate
    or debate at a ssensible level. I would not contemplate engaging or employing
    anyone with his style of communication, and am saddened that there are people
    who are sufficiently blinded by his bravado to pay him money for what he does.



    --
    Message posted via AccessMonster.com
    http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/access/200511/1
     
  9. David S via AccessMonster.com

    Guest

    >that's the funny part.. i can't communicate my way out of a paper bag

    Actually, you communicate your opinions very well; it's just that you
    ridicule and insult other opinions, thereby devaluing your own amongst the
    wider section of the community. Mounting personal attacks against others is a
    lousy way to convince other peopel you're right, although if you care more
    about being right than helping people, no doubt it makes you feel better.

    I'm curious as to why you even bother to hang out in this newsgroup, since
    all your stock answer for everything is "use ADP". I would have thought that
    it was self evident that people posting here are looking for advice more
    useful to their immedaite situation. You might as well say "use Java" or "use
    C#" - it might be a nice thing to do in the longer term, but the effort
    involved in redeveloping everything that's already working is hard to justify
    to anybody who values the end application over the technology used to achieve
    it...


    --
    Message posted via AccessMonster.com
    http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/access/200511/1
     
  10. Tony Toews

    Tony Toews
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    Guest

    "David S via AccessMonster.com" <u2219@uwe> wrote:

    >>that's the funny part.. i can't communicate my way out of a paper bag

    >
    >Actually, you communicate your opinions very well; it's just that you
    >ridicule and insult other opinions, thereby devaluing your own amongst the
    >wider section of the community. Mounting personal attacks against others is a
    >lousy way to convince other peopel you're right, although if you care more
    >about being right than helping people, no doubt it makes you feel better.
    >
    >I'm curious as to why you even bother to hang out in this newsgroup, since
    >all your stock answer for everything is "use ADP". I would have thought that
    >it was self evident that people posting here are looking for advice more
    >useful to their immedaite situation. You might as well say "use Java" or "use
    >C#" - it might be a nice thing to do in the longer term, but the effort
    >involved in redeveloping everything that's already working is hard to justify
    >to anybody who values the end application over the technology used to achieve
    >it...


    Now this is interesting. I see your reply but I don't see the posting
    to which you are replying.

    Tony
    --
    Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
    Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
    read the entire thread of messages.
    Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
     
  11. Tom Wickerath

    Tom Wickerath
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    Guest

    Hi Tony,

    I noticed the same thing when reading this thread using the Microsoft web
    portal:

    http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...n-us&mid=6a59fbb3-11bd-4959-a106-b671e96a43df


    However, the entire thread is available at Google Groups:

    http://groups.google.com/group/micr...*+author:kempf&rnum=14&hl=en#96472a0bff056612

    According to a person in the know, who sent me a private e-mail message, 43
    of Aaron's messages that he has posted since 10/24 have been purged from
    Microsoft's news server. This is no doubt due to the foul language that he
    continues to use in nearly every post. Did you catch the abusive reply that
    he made to me the other day? Here is a link to that thread:

    http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...cess&mid=b0955b64-0cd8-4475-86bf-88dc2a39b363

    I'm surprised he attacked me with such vigor. After all, I did not say
    anything bad about Data Access Pages. I simply stated that I don't tend to
    use them. Oh well. I noticed that Aaron has not replied back to that thread
    with any advice for the OP. He's Mr. DAP expert, but when it comes to
    actually helping someone out, there's no substance behind all the hot air.

    Tom
    ______________________________________________

    "Tony Toews" wrote:

    Now this is interesting. I see your reply but I don't see the posting
    to which you are replying.

    Tony
    --
    Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
    Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
    read the entire thread of messages.
    Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
     
  12. davros via AccessMonster.com

    Guest

    A while back I co-developed an Access97 database used heavily by 120 users
    daily. It was central to the company's sales operations. It was a 100million
    (UK pounds) turnover company. At the end of my time there - we regularly went
    6 months between mdb corruptions. Even then they only took 20minutes to fix !
    5 years prior to that we were on v2.0 and getting daily corruptions. Sure the
    product got better, but so did our understanding and use of it. The
    reliability we achieved in the end was by design - our design, a design we
    learned by applying common-sense to the day to day issues we faced. Trashing
    a product - as some have done in this thread, merely shows ignorance as to
    what can be achieved with the right attitude.
    Those who say something cannot be done are likely to be interrupted by the
    sound of somebody doing it !

    Tony Toews wrote:
    >>I was told that anytime a create a database for more than 15 users, Access is
    >>no good becuase it become unstable and corrupts data. They told me to use
    >>"sequel" Where can I find how good access ready is? I've been using it for 5
    >>years, and never had a problem. Does anyone have feedback?

    >
    >IMNSHO developers are seldom the cause of corruptions. Sharing the FE
    >or the combined MDB in A2000 and newer is high as a cause. In the
    >past OpLocks was definitely a cause but the SPs have been out long
    >enough that this cause has significantly decreased. Intermittently
    >flaky hardware is also a cause.
    >
    >Yes, SQL Server is a solution. However it can be expensive and
    >increase the time to create a solution. Also many IT departments won't
    >allow you access to their SQL Server systems without using their own
    >staff. Which is somewhat understandable at times but obviously can be
    >a pain.
    >
    >I have a former client running 25 users all day long on the MDB. That
    >said only ten of them are actually doing updates.
    >
    >Tony
     
  13. Tony Toews

    Tony Toews
    Expand Collapse
    Guest


    >i think that you guys are crazy; i haven't ever had more than 10 users
    >in a MDB without problems.


    Then maybe it's your network.

    >I jsut think that MDB is about as irrelevent as XLS-- it's not a real
    >db and if you're going to build it from scratch-- do it as an ACCESS
    >DATA PROJECT.


    Or use linked tables and linked views.

    >Migrating your app to SQL __IS__ a walk in the park; because you dont
    >have to run around dealing with this kinda bullsh*t:


    No, migrating an app to SQL Server can be a fair bit of work.

    >a) awful performance- across a network especially


    Wrong

    >b) versioning hell whenever you change a query


    Very seldom I ever change a query without having to change a form or report.

    >c) inability to take good backups of your data (people leave it open at
    >night for example)


    There are solutions to that. You can kick people out after an hour of inactivity.
    HOW TO: Detect User Idle Time or Inactivity in Access 2000 (Q210297)
    http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=210297
    ACC: How to Detect User Idle Time or Inactivity (Q128814)
    http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=128814

    >d) mdb queries SUCK-- MDB queries just randomly crap out when you start
    >stacking them on top of each other


    The few times I've had that problem they were getting very ugly.

    >e) bloat - waiting for a 200mb file to copy across the network; and
    >copying it 15 times.. you'd be much better off with SQL


    Why would you be copying a 200 mb file across the network 15 times? Sure Access is
    inefficient when it comes to moving data across a network but it certainly doesn't
    copy the entire MDB across the network. Unless, of course, you haven't indexed your
    tables properly. Which you should be doing in SQL Server anyhow.

    Tony
    --
    Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
    Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
    read the entire thread of messages.
    Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
     
  14. Tony Toews

    Tony Toews
    Expand Collapse
    Guest


    >MDB is a waste of time; a disease. it's a crutch.


    Please repost without the foul language and I'll be happy to respond.

    Tony
    --
    Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
    Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
    read the entire thread of messages.
    Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
     
  15. Tony Toews

    Tony Toews
    Expand Collapse
    Guest


    >And Tony-- just for the record


    Aaron

    All you've done is ensure your opinion will be ignored.

    Tony
    --
    Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
    Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
    read the entire thread of messages.
    Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
     
  16. David S via AccessMonster.com

    Guest

    >When you guys stop being BIGOTs and RACISTs then maybe i'll stop
    >fighting this holy war.

    HAHAHAHAHA - for some reason, I found this extraordinarily funny when
    juxtaposed with his later statement:

    >MDB IS ABOUT AS GAY AND OBSOLETE AS YOU CAN GET.

    which sort of pretty clearly demonstrates Aaron's homophobic tendencies :)
    Which is no surprise, really :)

    So it sounds like Aaron is posting here because of ideological reasons rather
    than out of a desire to help people with what they're actually trying to get
    done - you're posting in the wrong place, mate :) If you want to recruit
    people to your cause, there's must be more fruitful places than this bastion
    of MSB-idity (and yes, I did just invent that word - just in case you hadn't
    noticed)...


    --
    Message posted via http://www.accessmonster.com
     
  17. David S via AccessMonster.com

    Guest

  18. Tony Toews

    Tony Toews
    Expand Collapse
    Guest


    >you think that maybe it's my network?


    Certainly a possibility.

    <rest of posting snipped>

    Tony
    --
    Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
    Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
    read the entire thread of messages.
    Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
     
  19. Tony Toews

    Tony Toews
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    "Tom Wickerath" <AOS168 AT @comcast DOT net> wrote:

    >Did you catch the abusive reply that
    >he made to me the other day? Here is a link to that thread:


    I'm not quite sure I understand why someone would use such language in
    a public area. In a bar fine.

    >I'm surprised he attacked me with such vigor.


    I've been a bit startled myself.

    Tony
    --
    Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
    Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
    read the entire thread of messages.
    Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
     
  20. Tony Toews

    Tony Toews
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    "davros via AccessMonster.com" <u15445@uwe> wrote:

    >A while back I co-developed an Access97 database used heavily by 120 users
    >daily. It was central to the company's sales operations. It was a 100million
    >(UK pounds) turnover company. At the end of my time there - we regularly went
    >6 months between mdb corruptions. Even then they only took 20minutes to fix !
    >5 years prior to that we were on v2.0 and getting daily corruptions. Sure the
    >product got better, but so did our understanding and use of it. The
    >reliability we achieved in the end was by design - our design, a design we
    >learned by applying common-sense to the day to day issues we faced. Trashing
    >a product - as some have done in this thread, merely shows ignorance as to
    >what can be achieved with the right attitude.


    Interesting. I can't say I've seen any corruptions caused by bad
    design so your experience is a bit different. Possibly there were
    other factors such as flaky hardware that was retired? Or the
    infamous OpLocks causing troubles?

    What things did you do to reduce/eliminate corruptions?

    Tony
    --
    Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
    Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
    read the entire thread of messages.
    Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
     
  21. David S via AccessMonster.com

    Guest

    >i want to help people from being stuck making $20/hour when there are
    >hundreds and thousands and millions of open sql server jobs.


    Funnily enough, those aren't the people actually asking for help in this or
    any other post; I guess it's an illustration of the sort of tangents that
    these sorts of threads can wander off onto (apologies to the OP who has
    probably completely lost interest in this by now)

    Aaron, you'd make a good politician - 'cos if you were in it for the money,
    you'd stay quiet and make sure that this market that supposedly exists wasn't
    suddenly overwhelmed by all these former MS Access developers converting over
    to DAPs - limited supply means you get higher demand. So you are clearly be
    doing this for the ego trip it gives you. So what if you have to ignore all
    common sense and logic? That would be a valuable asset in political life too :
    )

    >it's just too easy to find kids that will work for $10/hour that will
    >do a better job that you kids

    You pay peanuts, you get monkeys :) No wonder your code looks good in
    contrast :) It's certainly an effective tactic - get someone else to write
    complete cr*p so that your stuff looks good by comparison. You'd want to keep
    employing those kids, because coming in afterwards to clean up must be the
    only thing keeping you afloat :) Unfortunately, it's also cowboy behaviour
    like this that gives the whole industry a bad name. I wouldn't let you join
    the firefighters either, since you'd be the type to light 'em up and then
    call it in so you could be the hero :p

    And most people measure kids' adulthood by their level of emotional maturity,
    in which case you've barely reached adolescence. I eagerly await your
    demonstrating the truth of this to everyone :)


    --
    Message posted via AccessMonster.com
    http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/access/200511/1
     

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