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Interfaith Marriage: Sikh & Catholic

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by RachelC813, May 26, 2009.

  1. RachelC813

    RachelC813
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    Hello. I wanted to respectfully ask why Sikhs and Catholics aren't allowed to marry. I'm confused because I thought Sikhs believe that people are not defined by their religion ("There is no Muslim. There is no Hindu.") and they strive to protect people who are discriminated against because of their religion. I don't understand why Sikhs are discouraged from marrying someone of a different faith. Please, if someone could help me understand why, I would be very grateful. I am not Sikh so it's very likely that I don't understand Sikhism and that's why I'm confused. But please help me. I just want to know why.
     
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Its more like..."There is no "Black" and there is no "White"..I....TS ALL COLOUR !!
    If we can understand that....then it all becomes clear.

    The BASIC Premise is that we are all from the SAME "LIGHT"..the Same CREATOR....
    Awal ALLAH NUR upayaha..KUDRAT ke sabh bandeh..EK NOOR te sabh jag upjiah...Kon bhaleh ko mandeh ??
    In the Beginning was the Light of ALLAH the Creator...from that light caee all..humans, animals, Nature...and so my friend..who is BAD ? and who is Good ?? Who is Muslim ? and who is Hindu..who is catholic and who is protestant..??

    IF anyone still INSISTS.."NO I am "CATHOLIC" and wish to remain so...why are YOU insisting that YOU are a "SIKH" and not wanting to marry me ??...MEANS the "fight" is still about Black/White/Grey..and BOTH have NOT realised the BASIC is COLOUR !!! The CATHOLIC can CEASE being a Catholic....and easily say..I AM A SIKH..so whats the problem ?? Or Vice Versa ?? It all depends on WHICH PARTY has UNDERSTOOD the "COLOUR"..the "RELIGION"..the CREATOR" the BEST !!!..and MERGED with HIM...and thus Can CLEARLY SEE ALL AS HE SEES ALL HIS CREATION !!! THAT is the TRUE FOLLOWER of HIS "religion".

    The Awal Allah lines are from the Sikh Holy Scriptures..SGGS and written bya MUSLIM Bhagat KABIR.
    The SGGS has writings of nearly 35 Holy men belongng to various other faiths...
    First question you will have to settle is .."does the Catholic BIBLE has any passages written by any others...other than those who are of the Faith of the Bible ?? Does the Catholic Bible promote ALL Mnakind as EQUAL under the Leadership of the One CREATOR ?? Do the catholics Pray to the Creator ands BEG for SARBATT DA BHALLA....GOODWILL FOR ALL MANKIND ?? Does the catholic Bible promoite that ALL PATHS lead to GOD and are EQUAL ??

    Learn more about the CREATOR as described in the SGGS....and you will know HIM MORE...

    Warm Regards..
     
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  4. Archived_member15

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    My dear brother Gyani peacesign

    Much love and peace to you my friend!


    I have just joined this forum and was trawling through the interfaith section when I found this thread mentioning my religion and I wanted to answer the questions you asked.

    Yes, it certainly does :happykudi:

    Both Saint Paul and John specifically quote pre-Christian Greek philosophy in Scripture.


    "...'for in him we live and move and have our being.'
    As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' "
    (Acts 16:28)

    Here Paul quotes the Greek poets Epimenides (500BC) and Aratus (300 BC). Paul again quotes the Greek Philosopher Aratus in Titus 1:12.

    These philosophers belonged to the Hellenic religion, not to Judaism or Christianity. However the Christian faith embraced everything that was true, good and inspired in this ancient religious, philosophical tradition.

    Many of the wisdom sayings in the Book of Proverbs come originally from Ancient Egyptian wisdom literature.

    You ask:


    Yes it certainly does:


    "...There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus..."

    - Galatians (NIV)


    This has been called "the Magna Carta of humanity". Its a powerful statement of spiritual equality and unity in the eyes of God. Its shows us how to see all as equals and brothers and sisters made in the Image of God regardless of their gender, race, religion, nationality or social class.

    Its also important to understand that Catholics are not adherents to "sola scriptura" thought (Ie like Protestants). The Bible is Word of God for us but it is not the be all and end all. We also believe in Sacred Tradition, passed down from the Apostles (similar to Jewish Oral Torah and Islamic Hadith) which is equally the Word of God.

    A Catholic would also look then to that repository of oral teaching attested too by the Church Fathers, and from the early Apostolic Father Pseudo-Clement of the second century we find preserved this non-canonical saying of Jesus:


    "...For the Lord himself, being asked when the kingdom would come, replied, ‘When two shall become one, the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female, neither male nor female - then you will enter [the Kingdom]..." ( 2 Clement 12).


    So as you can see Jesus preached a very radical egalitarianism indeed.



    Yes:


    1 Timothy 2:1-4 (RSV) "....First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men..."


    “…I want to accustom all the inhabitants, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and nonbelievers, to look on me as their brother, the universal brother. Already they’re calling this house “the fraternity” (khaoua in Arabic) — about which I’m delighted — and realizing that the poor have a brother here — not only the poor, though: all men…Above all, always see Jesus in every person, and consequently treat each one not only as an equal and as a brother or sister, but also with great humility, respect and selfless generosity…”

    - Blessed Charles de Foucauld (1858- 1916), Catholic mystic and martyr


    In the words of Pope Leo XIII:

    The maternal love of the Catholic Church embraces all people...It is the industrious guardian of the teachings of its Founder [Jesus] who, by His words and those of the apostles, taught men the fraternal necessity which unites the whole world. From Him we recall that everybody has sprung from the same source, was redeemed by the same ransom, and is called to the same eternal happiness

    (CATHOLICAE ECCLESIAE;1890)


    Without exceptions:


    "...What a wonderful vision, which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God. . . in the unity of its nature, composed equally in all men of a material body and a spiritual soul; in the unity of its immediate end and its mission in the world; in the unity of its dwelling, the earth, whose benefits all men, by right of nature, may use to sustain and develop life; in the unity of its supernatural end: God himself, to whom all ought to tend; in the unity of the means for attaining this end... This divine law of solidarity and charity assures that all men are truly brothers, without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and societies. In the light of this unity of all mankind, which exists in law and in fact, individuals do not feel themselves isolated units, like grains of sand, but united by the very force of their nature and by their internal destiny, into an organic, harmonious mutual relationship which varies with the changing of times...The blood of countless human beings, even noncombatants, raises a piteous dirge over a nation such as Our dear Poland...which has a right to the generous and brotherly sympathy of the whole world...With a heart torn by the sufferings and afflictions of so many of her sons, but with the courage and the stability that come from the promises of Our Lord, the Spouse of Christ goes to meet the gathering storms. This she knows, that the truth which she preaches, the charity which she teaches and practices, will be the indispensable counselors and aids to men of good will in the reconstruction of a new world based on justice and love, when mankind, weary from its course along the way of error, has tasted the bitter fruits of hate and violence...The Catholic Church...preaching fearlessly...the love of Christ demands with the zeal of a mother, stands as a blessed vision of peace above the storm of error and passion awaiting the moment when the all-powerful Hand of Christ the King shall quiet the tempest and banish the spirits of discord which have provoked it.

    Whatever We can do to hasten the day when the dove of peace may find on this earth, submerged in a deluge of discord, somewhere to alight, We shall continue to do..."


    - Pope Pius XII,Summi Pontificatus (On the Unity of Human Society) October 12, 1939



    The Catholic Church officially teaches courtesy of our current Pope:


    "...Interviewer:

    How many ways are there to God?

    Pope Benedict XVI:

    As many ways as there are people. For even within the same faith each man's way is an entirely personal one. In that respect there is ultimately one way, and everyone who is on the way to God is therefore in some sense also on the way to Jesus Christ. But this does not mean that all ways are identical in terms of conciousness and will but on the contrary, the one way is so big that it becomes a personal way for each man...We have so much knowledge, so many experiences, and on the other hand we find that faith has been so elaborated upon and oversystematized that access is no longer so easy to come by. I do think that we need a sort of revolution of faith in many respects....There is a new awareness of solidarity, of responsibility for humanity as a whole, of responsibility for creation. There are movements towards unification...The dialogue with other religions is under way. We are, I think, all convinced that we can learn something, for example, from the mysticism of Asia and that precisely the great mystical traditions also open possibilities of encounter...The Christian can also find the secret working of God behind them. Through the other religions God touches man and brings him onto the path. But it is always the same God, the God of Jesus Christ

    Interviewer:

    John Paul II in his talk before the United Nations in New York in 1995 on the foundations of a new world order, also spoke of a new hope for the Third Millenium. "We shall see," said the Pope, "that the tears of this century have prepared the ground for a new springtime of the human spirit". What might he mean by this "springtime"? A new identity of man?

    Pope Benedict XVI:

    The Pope does indeed cherish a great expectation that the millenium of divisions will be followed by a millenium of unifications...The emergence of ecumenism at the Second Vatican Council is indeed a sign of a sort of renewed approach to a new unity. It is thus filled with the hope that the millenia have their physiognomy; that all the catastrophes of our century, as the Pope says, will be caught up at the end and turned into a new beginning. Unity of mankind, unity of religions, unity of Christians - we ought to search for these unities again, so that a more positive epoch may really begin. We must have visions...In the history and universe of religions, there is always a great necessity to purify religion so that it does not become an obstacle to the right relation to God but puts man on the right path...In all religions there are men of interior purity who through their myths and beliefs somehow touch the great mystery and find the right way of being human..."

    - Pope Benedict XVI, Salt of the Earth


    Pope John Paul II was once asked: "WHY ARE THERE SO MANY RELIGIONS?"

    Here's the question and his answer:


    "...Q: But if God who is in heaven-and who saved and continues to save the world-is One and only One and is He who has revealed Himself in Jesus Christ, why has He allowed so many religions to exist?
    Why did He make the search for the truth so arduous, in the midst of a forest of rituals, of beliefs, of revelations, of faiths which have always thrived-and still do today-throughout the world?

    Pope John Paul II: You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions.

    The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words "Nostra aetate" ("In our time"). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church.

    From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Council document speaks of this unity and links it with the current trend to bring humanity closer together through the resources available to our civilization. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties: "There is only one community and it consists of all peoples. They have only one origin, since God inhabited the entire earth with the whole human race. And they have one ultimate destiny, God, whose providence, goodness, and plan for salvation extend to all. . . . Men turn to various religions to solve mysteries of the human condition, which today, as in earlier times, burden people's hearts: the nature of man; the meaning and purpose of life; good and evil; the origin and purpose of suffering; the way to true happiness; death; judgment and retribution after death; and finally, the ultimate ineffable mystery which is the origin and destiny of our existence. From ancient times up to today all the various peoples have shared and continue to share an awareness of that enigmatic power that is present throughout the course of things and throughout the events of human life, and, in which, at times, even the Supreme Divinity or the Father is recognizable. This awareness and recognition imbue life with an intimate religious sense. Religions that are tied up with cultural progress strive to solve these issues with more refined concepts and a more precise language" (Nostra Aetate 1-2).

    Here the Council document brings us to the Far East-first of all to Asia...The tradition of very ancient cultures, antedating Christianity, remains very strong in the East. Even if faith in Christ reaches hearts and minds, the negative connotations associated with the image of life in Western society (the so-called Christian society) present a considerable obstacle to the acceptance of the Gospel. Mahatma Gandhi, Indian and Hindu, pointed this out many times, in his deeply evangelical manner. He was disillusioned with the ways in which Christianity was expressed in the political and social life of nations. Could a man who fought for the liberation of his great nation from colonial dependence accept Christianity in the same form as it had been imposed on his country by those same colonial powers?

    The Second Vatican Council realized this difficulty. This is why the document on the relations between the Church and Hinduism and other religions of the Far East is so important. We read: "In Hinduism men explore the divine mystery and express it through an endless bounty of myths and through penetrating philosophical insight. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition, either by way of the ascetic life, profound meditation, or by taking refuge in God with love and trust. The various schools of Buddhism recognize the radical inadequacy of this malleable world and teach a way by which men, with devout and trusting hearts, can become capable either of reaching a state of perfect liberation, or of attaining, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination" (Nostra Aetate 2).

    Further along, the Council remarks that "The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. The Church has a high regard for their conduct and way of life, for those precepts and doctrines which, although differing on many points from that which the Church believes and propounds, often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men. However, the Church proclaims, and is bound to proclaim that Christ is 'the way and the truth and the life' [Jn 14:6], in whom men must find the fullness of religious life and in whom God has reconciled everything to Himself" (Nostra Aetate 2).

    The words of the Council recall the conviction, long rooted in the Tradition, of the existence of the so-called semina Verbi (seeds of the Word), present in all religions. In the light of this conviction, the Church seeks to identify the semina Verbi present in the great traditions of the Far East, in order to trace a common path against the backdrop of the needs of the contemporary world. We can affirm that here the position of the Council is inspired by a truly universal concern. The Church is guided by the faith that God the Creator wants to save all humankind in Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and man, inasmuch as He is the Redeemer of all humankind. The Paschal Mystery is equally available to all, and, through it, the way to eternal salvation is also open to all.

    In another passage the Council says that the Holy Spirit works effectively even outside the visible structure of the Church (cf. Lumen Gentium 13), making use of these very semina Verbi, that constitute a kind of common soteriological root present in all religions.

    I have been convinced of this on numerous occasions, both while visiting the countries of the Far East and while meeting representatives of those religions, especially during the historic meeting at Assisi, where we found ourselves gathered together praying for peace.

    Thus, instead of marveling at the fact that Providence allows such a great variety of religions, we should be amazed at the number of common elements found within them.

    At this point it would be helpful to recall all the primitive religions, the animistic religions which stress ancestor worship. It seems that those who practice them are particularly close to Christianity, and among them, the Church's missionaries also find it easier to speak a common language. Is there, perhaps, in this veneration of ancestors a kind of preparation for the Christian faith in the Communion of Saints, in which all believers-whether living or dead-form a single community, a single body? And faith in the Communion of Saints is, ultimately, faith in Christ, who alone is the source of life and of holiness for all. There is nothing strange, then, that the African and Asian animists would become believers in Christ more easily than followers of the great religions of the Far East.

    As the Council also noted, these last religions possess the characteristics of a system. They are systems of worship and also ethical systems, with a strong emphasis on good and evil. Certainly among these belong Chinese Confucianism and Taoism: Tao means eternal truth-something similar to the "Word"-which is reflected in the action of man by means of truth and moral good. The religions of the Far East have contributed greatly to the history of morality and culture, forming a national identity in the Chinese, Indians, Japanese, and Tibetans, and also in the peoples of Southeast Asia and the archipelagoes of the Pacific Ocean.

    Some of these peoples come from age-old cultures. The indigenous peoples of Australia boast a history tens of thousands of years old, and their ethnic and religious tradition is older than that of Abraham and Moses.

    Christ came into the world for all these peoples. He redeemed them all and has His own ways of reaching each of them in the present eschatological phase of salvation history. In fact, in those regions, many accept Him and many more have an implicit faith in Him (cf. Heb 11:6).

    Truth, in fact, cannot be confined. Truth is for one and for all. And if this truth comes about through love (cf. Eph 3:15), then it becomes even more universal..."

    -from Crossing the Threshold of Hope, by Pope John Paul II



    Much love to you my dear Sikh brother!
     
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    #3 Archived_member15, Feb 23, 2012
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  5. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Vouthon ji thanks again for great citations. I want to clarify one part in your post regarding Gandhi. He was part of an elaborate exit strategy for the British. He played out perfectly before the exit of the British and after. Before the Exit, non-violence was created so no British would be harmed. Then sectarianism was encouraged near the end to get people busy so as such never bothered the British ever and in a way will miss the British, those were the good days under the British.

    Mahatma Gandhi viewed the Sikhs as follows,

    He was a fanatic Hindu glorified and Marketed in a cloak of non-Violence, greatly assigned glory of the others in a Marketing plan and so on. The West out of indifference liked the romance of the plan. Rest is history. peacesign

    Handlers make "Zeroes to Heroes" and "Heroes to Zeroes" and many Sikhs suffered the Hero to Zero treatment through the communal Hindu India past Independence. It continues to this day.

    Take care.
     
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  6. Archived_member15

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    That is terrible!! Completely disrespectful. I cannot believe someone would say such a thing. Sikhism is an indepenent world religion!

    I honestly know nothing about Mahatma Ghandi (I only see now that his name was mentioned in that quote from the Pope). I apologise for inadvertantly quoting something with his name mentioned in it now after reading that! Very disappointed in Ghandi :(
     
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  7. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Vouthon brother, here is a great book that contrast Eastern religions and specifically in this case Sikhism-Hinduism. Same author(s) or series has also other books on Sikhism-Islam_Christianity.

    http://www.sikhmissionarysociety.org/sms/smspublications/SikhReligionAndHinduism.pdf

    Take care.
     
  8. Archived_member15

    Archived_member15
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    My dear brother Ambarsaria :)

    Thank you very much for that link! I will read it with pleasure and get back to you with my thoughts on it! I really want to learn more about Eastern religions, in particular Sikhism, so as to enrich my own religious experience.

    And thank you again for telling me that about Ghandi. I am glad for it, because I doubt that many know much about the man, having only heard things from hearsay. The truth you have given me is very disturbing, but it must become wider known! As the old saying goes, "Only the truth will set us free".

    God Bless and keep you my friend mundahug
     
  9. Luckysingh

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    Vouthon

    It's a pleasure that you are on this forum. I certainly think, that you will enjoy liasing with sikhs and other faiths. I have not been here too long, so can't say much more.

    However, I have had a very mixed upbringing, and have come across many catholics along the way.
    In all honesty, speaking from my experience, out of all the white folk or goras as we say, I couldn't relate to any others better than the ways I got along with the catholics.

    There was so much understanding with sikhism and also the punjabi cultural values.

    Infact, one of my best friends (turbaned Sikh) has been married to an Irish catholic for nearly 10 years now. They are one of the most happiest couples that I know at this very moment.


    Regards
    Lucky Singh
     
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  10. Archived_member15

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    My dear brother Lucky Singh kaurhug


    Many blessings to you in the Lord!


    It is my pleasure to meet you and all the other lovely people on SPN.


    Thank you for your kind words about Catholics! I really appreciate it.

    I have found the same with Sikhs: Every Sikh I have ever met has been exemplary, always very respectful, always caring, understanding, friendly and a true credit to their religious heritage and Punjabi culture. I am ever amazed at the uprightness and dedication of the Sikh community. They have contributed much to British life and are a very important part of it, I would daresay.

    And I am very pleased to hear of your friend's interfaith marriage! I wish them both long life and continued bliss together! mundahug It demonstrates very beautifully that religion need never be a barrier to love - but rather the vehicle which uplifts it.

    Much love to you! kaurhug
     
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  11. Kamala

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    It really depends on who's the person who rejected the purposle, if it is a traditional person, need I say more? Also just forget it, it'd be too complicated to work out if you have kids or whatever.
     
  12. Luckysingh

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    It really depends on who's the person who rejected the purposle, if it is a traditional person, need I say more? Also just forget it, it'd be too complicated to work out if you have kids or whatever.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

    Kamala ji

    I'll just mention, they do have 2 children at this stage.
    I don't think they have had any complications and it is working out fine.
    Like Vouthon says-'religion should never be a barrier for love'. This is a very nice comment.

    I know it is diificult for a few people to stomach, but we have to move forward and like my veerji mentioned in another post- we have to adapt to the changing times or we cause our own inflicting time-warps.

    All I can say is that I truly cannot ever imagine the couple with different partners of their own backround faiths, it's impossible!!

    Thanks
    Lucky Singh

    I've just put this in a few hours later.-PS. Kamalaji, I've just noticed that you may not have been referencing my earlier post, if not then my apologies.
     
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  13. Archived_member15

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  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Brother Vouthon Ji,
    Peace and Love from me as well brother...
    I like what you write.

    1. I began my kindergarten in a Catholic Church...and finished my HSC Higher School certificate Cambridge university also at a catholic Brothers Missionary School...so I spent almost 12 years of my education in a Catholic environment..i had some of the best and most dedicated Irish brothers as my teachers and mentors..and i still think of them most fondly as they molded me and gave me some of their best in education, love, kindness, and much more...but i have learnt more from your posts than those 12 years...?? surprising ??
    carry on posting bro..
    peace and Blessings of the Creator upon us all...
     
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  15. Archived_member15

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    peacesignMy dear brother Gyani peacesign

    Thank you very much for these beautiful words! I am very humbled.

    Indeed peace and blessings of the Creator upon all of us. I am thankful for hearing about your formative years in a Catholic environment and about your dear Irish Catholic friends.

    I must say that I have never been on a religious forum where my posts have been so warmly received and where I have felt truly welcomed and at home. That is a true testament to Sikh values and hospitality. I feel very at home on SPN, so I will certainly keep posting when God grants me the time :singhsippingcoffee:
    I couldn't have received a more warm, open and brotherly reception! :whatzpointkudi:

    You are all, my dear Sikhi brothers, exemplars of the wonderful teachings of your beautiful faith. All of you have been unfailingly polite, kind, helpful, and dignified towards me. I really am not exaggerating your good qualities guys! icecreammunda
     
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  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Vouthon Ji..
    They are the La-salle Brothers and the best schools in malaysia are run by them...and the Girls equivalent are the Sisters who run the Convents of the Holy Infant Jesus..so my sisters studied in those...equally good at building character as well as educating. My fondest memories are of Bro ignatious who was nearly 88 when he returned to ireland after a lifetime of service..i spent almost 8 years with him...sadly God didnt allow him much time as a retiree..he passed away soon after returning to ireland..after he had a good long drink of what we call lassee YOUGHURT DRINK...i miss him dearly....nearly three decades later...
     
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