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In 300 Years, Will a Sikh Wear a Kirpan or a Lightsaber?

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Scarlet Pimpernel, Aug 28, 2011.

  1. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
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    Dear Spn-Sangat
    Recently my Amritdhari brother in law was robbed in Texas by an armed man.He wears a Sri Sahib but when the gun was pointed directly in his face he decided being a family man that it was better to give the gunman what he wanted which was money in this case.This got me thinking ,with around three hundred years having passed since the Khalsa started wearing kirpan's ,will we never change this for another side arm. The kirpan was the sidearm of choice when my Guru walked this earth, but in another 300 years a body armour may be available which steel cannot penetrate or lightsabers and laser guns may become the norm of the day.The question is will we still wear our kirpan even if it no longer a viable sidearm or as protective to others? Sangat is my advisor so I humbly ask this question of you.
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    Re: In 300 years will a Sikh still wear a Kirpan or a lightsaber?

    sinner ji

    He did the prudent thing. This is what all law enforcement tell you to do. There are times for heroism. This is not one.

    After 1699, the kirpan was more than a side-arm. Today it means more than a weapon.

    And we all have to be careful according to the laws for carrying a weapon concealed on in the open. If this terrible crime had happened in Arizona, not Texas, your dear one woud have been empowered to wear a knife in the open right on his belt. In fact required, because in that state carrying concealed is forbidden. Often that serves as a deterrent. The hold up might have never occurred. In another state it would be illegal. I am guessing that light sabers will in the future be covered by the same kinds of legal regulation. Or not allowed at all as the forces of power are doing their best to keep tight clamps on all of us.
     
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  4. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Dear Admin Ji

    I maybe looking for utility because I feel our Guru primarily would provide us with useful articles.I agree my brother in law thankfully did the right thing, but I suspect he may have bought a gun since the incident.
     
  5. spnadmin

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    I understand. I actually know someone who converted to Sikhism because it was the only religion that he felt supported the "right to bear arms" 2nd amendment to the US constitution. He devoted most of his energy in sangat, when I knew him, to convincing the men they should start self defense groups. It seems he was frequently accosted because of his turban... actually a rarity in this neck of the woods. So no one really took him seriously but love him nonetheless. A lovable kook, but our kook.

    The situation in days to come will do less to support and more to suppress any bearing of "lightsabres." And most other weapons. Except in a few states such as Arizona and Georgia where weaponry is expected. Then the prob is the prudent Gursikh is going to be hard to distinguish from a crazed, minority hating yahoo. Ergo......dastar and kesh are even more essential
     
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  6. Arvind

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    IMHO, the five Ks will stay as it is. In the coming years or centuries, there will be people who will be able to understand the real purpose and divinity of the 5Ks, and not just look at these superficially.

    Warm Regards.
     
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  7. Archived_Member16

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    [​IMG]


    Kirpan(Sword) in Sikhism - A Symbol of Benevolence and Dignity
    by: Dr. Sawraj Singh, MD, FICS

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kirpan, which can be literally translated into sword, has a much deeper meaning in the Sikh religion. It consists of two words, Kirpa and Aan. The word Kirpa means benevolence and the word Aan means dignity. Therefore Kirpan is a symbol of benevolence and dignity.

    Guru Gobind Singh made Kirpan as an integral part of the 5 k’s. The Kesh, meaning hair symbolizes devotion, asceticism, and renunciation. The hair is associated with spirituality in many other religions. But Guru Gobind Singh made Kangha (comb) also one of the five k’s, which symbolizes order and organization as well as purity and cleanliness. Karha the iron bangle around the wrist is the symbol of universality. Kachara the underwear is the symbol of piousness and sexual purity.

    It is Kirpan, which imparts uniqueness to the Sikh religion. Guru Gobind Singh in the worship of Kirpanicalls it a symbol of justice, equality and struggle against oppression and discrimination and exploitation. The Guru Hails Kirpan as the liberator and sustainer of mankind and the destroyer of the oppressors and the exploiters. He also sees Kirpan as a symbol of bravery and knowledge because it can dispel cowardice and ignorance. He sees celestial beauty in the shining Kirpan.

    The Guru asks us to worship Kirpan as one of the aspects of God. As opposed to the Judeo Semitic concept of creation, which considers the creation as a separate act of God that created the universe in 6 days, from Monday to Saturday and then rested on Sunday, the Sikh religion sees the creation as an uninterrupted and constant act. The Sikh religion believes that the creation has 3 aspects symbolized by Barhama, Vishnu and Mahesh (Shiva). Barhama symbolizes creation, Vishnu symbols sustenance and Shiva symbolizes destruction.
    Destruction is an integral part of construction because without destroying the worn out old, room cannot be created for the emerging new.

    The outlook and attitude of the Sikh religion to Kirpan is fundamentally different than the others who generally view sword as a symbol of power and domination. The sword can generate and encourage arrogance. Arrogance always leads to ignorance.Kirpan constantly reminds the Sikhs of the power of the Almighty. Therefore Kirpan should promote humility. As arrogance and ignorance like each other’s company similarly humility and knowledge go together.

    It is very important in the contemporary world that we use our power as Kirpan and not as a sword. Whereas Kirpan was used by Guru Gobind Singh to liberate the oppressed people, the sword of the colonialists was used to enslave the other people and nations.

    The judicious use of force can help us to change the outdated old world order, which has outlived its usefulness and has become redundant and irrelevant.

    The only way peace and harmony can be kept in the world and prosperity maintained is by upholding principals of equality, fairness, justice, benevolence and showing respect for other peoples beliefs and values.

    We can only suppress others temporarily until they are strong enough to fight against the oppressor. On the other hand benevolence, compassion, universal concern and universal well-being are principles which can lead to a lasting peace and progress. This is the global perspective of Guru Nanak. What we should understand is that Guru Gobind Singh raised Kirpan not only to uphold the principles of Guru Nanak but also to give a practical shape to those principles.

    Dr. Sawraj Singh is Chairman of Washington State Network for Human Rights, and Chairman of Central Washington Coalition for Social Justice.


    source: http://www.indolink.com/printArticleS.php?id=022405023333
     
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  8. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Thankyou for the responses, perhaps I watched too many Star Wars films but I felt the kirpan had a practical purpose as a secondary sidearm for a saint-soldier, I realise it has become an article of faith and has a symbolic dimension.Perhaps the ability to use it for self defence or to defend anyone else for that matter will not be a factor in the future.Maybe a Lightsaber is a kirpan of the future.
     
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Sabres...can be seen in History even as far back as 3000 years..The Romans had sabres..the Vikings had sabres..the Crusaders ahd sabres..King Arthur and his knights had sabres....Alexander carried one.Maharaja Ranjit Singh had one....Queen Elizabeth carries one TODAY !!..and KING HARRY will also carry the same Royal Sword...in decades to come...and those who come after him...will too...
    Modern Armies still have BAYONETS attached..and all Commandos mandatory carry a KNIFE for close combat !!! The Most Modersn Armies still carry knives..are they ok ?? Shouldnt they have discarded swords and knives long ago..esp with nuclear missilses and grenades and missile launchers carried on shoulders ??
    Fact is some things NEVER go out !! KIRPAN is " IN"....as long as the KHALSA IS....no matter how many "amrtidharees" and Non-sikhs get MUGGED by armed robbers...carrying GUNS...reminds me of the Scene in a Hollywood movie where the villian rushes at the hero waving a large sword..and almost at the Last Minute..the hero whips out his GUN..and shoots the villan dead....I heard everyone in the cinema laugh out LOUD..LOL...its very PRUDENT of thsi amritdharee to have kept his cool...as every AMRITDHAREE SHOULD at all times....the "kirpan" is NOT a 007 License to KILL !!
     
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  10. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Arvind Ji
    I disagree if the 5K's are divine, is that not a superficial way of thinking?
    (su·per·fi·cial (s p r-f sh l). adj. 1. Of, affecting, or being on or near the surface).The Guru's word is divine and he taught us to act and for that we need the best sabre or sword that is available at a point in time, surely the metal has changed in a kirpan over the past centuries.Sikhism is a very practical religion and everything the Guru gave had a real usefulness ,for example the kanga is used everyday in a practical way.Symbolism was not the primary reason the soldiers carried arms, so practical use I think was the Guru Ji's intention.
    Gyani Ji,True, I guess a sabre is a type a sword, I realise it is not a licence to kill ,against a gun it is probably a licence to be killed!lol
     
  11. Ambarsaria

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    Sikhs can and will carry lot of other stuff too as the times change. Whether this will be a replacement for Kirpan or a Kirpan with hidden electronics or other ammunition, only time will tell. Some nice pictures,

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  12. OSingh

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    It must be stressed that kirpan cannot be 'replaced' for Amritdhari (Baptised) Sikh. Kirpan is a kakar and must never leave the body as per instructions from Panj Piare. Sure one can also carry and utilise different weapons it is well known that Guru Gobind Singh used a rifle which is still with us today.

    Due to 'modernity' Sikhs are questioning traditions. Nowadays, many Gursikhs choose to wear Kirpan underneath even at Gurdwara Sahibs which never makes sense. It is getting tougher by the day to wear Kirpan in public, due to lack of awareness and misconceptions on Kirpan. I can envisage a day when Kirpan could be banned in some countries.

    However, Kirpan is not only a weapon but has spiritual significance. It is used to prepare Panchamrit Karah Parshad and prepare Amrit in Amrit Sanchar. Therefore Kirpan cannot be replaced it is not only a weapon same goes for Kara, Keski, Kachera and Kangha. Guru Maharaj gave these gifts to us, we should cherish them.

    "The question is will we still wear our kirpan even if it no longer a viable sidearm or as protective to others? Sangat is my advisor so I humbly ask this question of you."

    Yes. Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh ji will always wear kirpan. However this does not mean that we cannot use other weapons.

    The more bani we read the more shardha (trust) and piar (love) we develop with our the Guru. Once we understand the greatness of Guru Granth Sahib we accept hukams of Guru Sahib such as wearing kirpan. Gursikhs dont look at Kirpan as some worldy object, it is a Gift from Guru Sahib.
     
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  13. Ambarsaria

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    Osingh ji let us think outside the box. Say the sheath of the Kirpan can be embedded with a miniaturized future weapon as legally allowed, that should do both purposes. May be the Kirpan handle can be embedded with a defensive electronic/futuristic effective, weapon, that will do it too.

    So the future will be keep a modernized kirpan/holster-sheath. When electronics fails, you still have a basic stuff.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  14. OSingh

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    Ambarsaria jeeo

    Its important to leave Kirpan as it is. It should be made of Sarbloh.
    I have no objection for Singh or Singhni carrying any other sort of weapon.
    We should not modify/change the kakars.

    Here in UK carrying a knife is a major offence let alone a gun. Most countries seem to be banning the carrying of weapons. Even the USA which even has written in constitution that one has right to bear arms, they are trying to get laws to ban guns.

    Even our own community seems to be turning against the Kirpan, the new generation are saying we are not in any wars why should we wear Kirpans.

    Sikhs will come under increasing pressure from Governments in regards to Kirpan. Lets focus on keeping the right to wear Kirpan. I dont think governments will allow Sikhs or non-Sikhs to carry weapons outside of Religion.

    Rabb Rakhe
     
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  15. Ambarsaria

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    Osingh ji the question of the thread is 300 years from now! How about the sheath! What is tha supposed to be made of? How about the gatra, what is tha made of! Sikhi gives you the tools to adapt not to get stuck on.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  16. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Veera the truth is you can write pages about the spirtual significance but the world will see it simply as a dagger and they will call it that.If it looks like a dagger, feels like a dagger, it's a dagger!I think when we were given it centuries ago ,the Guru saw it simply as a dagger,there was no lecture given on the origin of the word kirpan or anything else! A primary need had to be addressed for living and to survive, we had to have some sort of defence at that time.The sword was for wars and later seems to be have shortened ,if it was divine as Arvind Ji stated perhaps it's divinity was shortened!remember this was centuries ago and before the rule of law and before a proper police force existed.Needs must alls fair in love and war.In peace time I think the Guru may have even decided to relax the requirement.
     
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    #15 Scarlet Pimpernel, Aug 31, 2011
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  17. Ambarsaria

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    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  18. OSingh

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    Ambarsaria ji

    "Sikhs can and will carry lot of other stuff too as the times change. Whether this will be a replacement for Kirpan or a Kirpan with hidden electronics or other ammunition, only time will tell."

    Its clear Kirpan cannot be replaced. Its vital for preparation of Karah Parshad and Amrit. The moment a Sikh takes off his Kirpan and adopts some other weapon he ceases to Sikh. You cannot go against Hukam from Panj Piare, which is Hukam form Guru Gobind Singh ji. We cannot just 'replace' Kakars they are gifts from Satguru Gobind Singh ji.

    We can use modern weapons but that does not mean we have to modify our current kakars. We can wear Kirpan in gatra while also holding a gun, axe etc.

    Kakars will never grow old. A Gursikh wearing Dastar with Kirpan and Full Kesh will always be an amazing sight, even one million years from now. Gursikh roop is niara (seperate) and always will be, such is the bakshsish of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

    I believe baata for preparation of Amrit and Karah Parshad should be made of Sarbloh in addition to Kirpan. However this is not relevant to discussion.
     
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  19. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    O Veera, I understand the ceremonial need but does a Sikh stop being a Sikh when he boards a plane or has a shower, maybe the reason nearly 80% of young Sikhs in the UK don't wear it is because they think it is not as necessary in modern times with the rule of law in place.
    Could the Khalsa have actually been an early police force, like the Peelers ? As it is an ethical ,lightly armed force with a uniform appearance.
     
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  20. OSingh

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    Not 'Sinner' ji

    "O Veera, I understand the ceremonial need but does a Sikh stop being a Sikh when he boards a plane or has a shower"

    Baptized Sikh violates rehit when he/she voluntarily removes a Kakar, in case of boarding plane they have no choice therefore this is not violation of rehit.

    Baptized Sikh never removes Kirpan, Kachera, Kara or Kangha from body even in shower. Any rehitvaan Gursikh will confirm this.

    "maybe the reason nearly 80% of young Sikhs in the UK don't wear it is because they think it is not as necessary in modern times with the rule of law in place. "

    It doesn't matter if 1% or 100% of Sikhs don't wear Kirpan. Rehit is Rehit, Gursikhs follow the ways of Satguru ji, not the ways of worldy people. Gursikh is automatically a law abiding person if he/she follows bachans of Guru ji.

    A Gursikh will never remove or swap their Kakars to become 'modern'. Gursikhs follows the bachans of Guru Sahib and then the world, if its a choice between the world or Guru ji, a Sikh will always serve the Guru and not the world.

    Rare are Sikhs that follow bachans of Satguru.

    I seek the dust of such Sikhs.

    Rabb Rakhe
     
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  21. kds1980

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    The question is what will be the percentage of Sikhs who will wear 5ks?Look at muslims ,there was time when fairly good percentage of them use to keep beards ,but in last century almost 99% discarded it.The one who keep it now are old or middle aged .Now this has created problem for them Indian air force don't allow allow them to keep beards and surprising fact is even Pakistani air force don't allow them to keep it.
     
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