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Ignorant Person Giving Sikhi a Bad Name. Please Comment!

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by sikhimylife, Jan 1, 2011.

  1. sikhimylife

    sikhimylife
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    I actually made a account on this website to show how ignorant some people like this women are. Shes a former "Sikh" and converted to Christianity who doesn't know an IOTA of Sikhism. Shes telling people that we worship our Gurus and believe in evil spirits! She said our Dharma is full of RITUALS! When our Gurus stressed so much to abandon ritualistic practices! Then she goes on telling everyone how evil her parents are and basically blaming it on Sikhism! Ignorance is my worst pet peeve, I mean it's ok if she found God in Christ but she has no right to make Sikhi look bad! Please comment on the Youtube video! Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

    YouTube - Raj Jarrett - Testimony 'From Sikhism to Christianity'
    swordfight
     
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  3. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Ignorant women giving Sikhi a bad name, please comment!

    Calm your horses. Why are you taking everything she said about her family so personally?
     
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  4. sikhimylife

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    Re: Ignorant Person Givng Sikhi a bad name, Please Comment!

    Its the lack of knowledge of Sikhi what I'm taking personally, not about her family. I understand her family doesn't treat her well but she's making it look like that its because of Sikhi her family is like that. She said we worship spirits, we worship our Gurus and follow rituals. That is what she told people and that is false in Sikhism.
     
  5. findingmyway

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    Re: Ignorant Person Givng Sikhi a bad name, Please Comment!

    Sikhimylife ji,
    I have changed the title of this thread as the way it was reflected badly on all women. The fact she is a woman is neither here nor there as you will find many examples of males doing similar things. Thank you for your understanding. This video shows the power of the people doing the converting and it shows the lack of knowledge within our own community that she believes these things.
     
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  6. sikhimylife

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    My mistake, thank you for doing that!
     
  7. BhagatSingh

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    Did she mention Sikhism?

    If, instead of pointing fingers, we look inward and mend ourselves, then she would not have the chance to say those things. Many SIkh families do behave the way she described. Use the criticism to correct yourself.

    In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the focus is always one's own ego.
     
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  8. spnadmin

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    sikhimylife ji

    From your account id it is clear how deeply you love Sikhi. There is a way to take your next steps to do your part to reverse the damage you feel has been done.

    This pathetic young woman is not alone in feeling deep alienation from the message of Guru Nanak. We see at least one person a week here at SPN who is in despair because they feel stuck in a world where traditions are used to do harm not good. These people then want to give up the Sikh way of life. And they put the rest of us on the defensive because of their personal experiences. They may convert to Christianity or Islam. They may declare themselves atheists. Or they may linger around to challenge symbols and practices of the Sikh faith. It is a pattern that can be predicted 100 percent of the time.

    Bur see how stuck in personal misery she is. Look at how contorted her face is with anger and look at the aggressive body language in the video. Anger is her only defense against the negativity - which she sponged up from a lifetime of negative examples. The whole ball game that we see with too many youth today.

    How about you? This may sound like a box full of sugary emotions. When Sikhi is your Life, it means that you are the one who has a strong sense in your own life of the love of Waheguru. To know this is your "great good fortune" as gurbani says over and over again. Blessed by that great good fortune, your path can only be to teach others how to find what you have within. Be energetic about it. I am so serious. Find opportunities to teach Sikhi, not by preaching but by example: first lesson of which is inner clam, second lesson of which is compassion and love, third lesson of which is to be present for other people. If even one person is rescued from anger by your example then you will be the Guru's Sikh in this shabad:

    ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਿਵਿ ਨਿਵਿ ਲਾਗਉ ਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
    jo dheesai gurasikharraa this niv niv laago paae jeeo ||
    When I see a Sikh of the Guru, I humbly bow and fall at his feet.


    ਆਖਾ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜੀਅ ਕੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਜਣੁ ਦੇਹਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
    aakhaa birathhaa jeea kee gur sajan dhaehi milaae jeeo ||
    I tell to him the pain of my soul, and beg him to unite me with the Guru, my Best Friend.

    ਸੋਈ ਦਸਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਅਨਤ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
    soee dhas oupadhaesarraa maeraa man anath n kaahoo jaae jeeo ||
    I ask that he impart to me such an understanding, that my mind will not go out wandering anywhere else.


    ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਤੈ ਕੂੰ ਡੇਵਸਾ ਮੈ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਦੇਹੁ ਬਤਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
    eihu man thai koon ddaevasaa mai maarag dhaehu bathaae jeeo ||
    I dedicate this mind to you. Please, show me the Path to God.

    And seek opportunities for outreach and seva as a Sikh to be that example. Remember it was the sevadars not preachers of United Sikhs who were told by the mayor of earthquake ravaged capital city of Haiti - We want you to stay! You have really made a difference! She did not say that lightly.
     
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  9. Navdeep88

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    Its obvious she didnt grow up in a Sikh household (by what she describes of her family's conduct), so her view on the Sikh lifestyle is very distorted. And its best to ignore it.

    However, with all the hardships and hate she has dealt with, its nice to see she at least embraced God (or is attempting to) in some form. At least she didnt turn around and become like her abusers, she found some way out.

    I gotta give her props for resilience, she still managed to create a life for herself, and thats not easy to do when your own family treats you so horribly.
     
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  10. Ambarsaria

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    I do believe it is hard to tell people from appearances alone. I do not know her family and from her description they may be outwardly sikh with little sikhi internalized. I believe it is very likely that all the family relatives and community at large may be supporting the family because,


    • She married a non-sikh and the dogma of a sikh girl marrying a black christian male
    However,

    • Only she and her family know the truth about her allegations of,

      • Sexual abuse
      • Persecution from childhood
      • Threat of violence
      • Demeaning comments about the cheaper marriages as being less expensive in India
        • I have no comments other than to say it is so sad even if these are fraction of a % true
    When watching the video it appears she is well spoken and a strong speaker and she got those capabilities through her family

    • It wouldn't be too difficult to visualize such a family having other strong people with similar characteristics
      • Whereas these are good qualities when used in right ways these can also be extremely counter-productive and damaging to people
    Overall I don't believe she has said too much bad about sikhism per se. I agree with BhagatSingh's observations that it should give us pause to think. What she says does happen but her generalization is wrong.

    Some of the things to think of,

    • Girls infanticide
      • at birth
      • abortions
        • My mother used to tell me that any time a girl was born there was this lady in her village who could be invited by people not happy and she will kill them at birth
    • Cultural treatment of girls (sorry to generalize as it is not true for all but it does happen quite commonly)
      • When a boy is having some fun during his teen years it is called fooling around and saying is ... koi nahin vaddah hoke theek ho jayugah
      • If a girl did this, she will be persecuted as it becomes a case of respect and social stature of the family
    This is a huge topic, so before taking any further space I would wait, search and seek other wisdom on this board.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: Great post by Bhagatsingh in the following on saying thinking someone good versus bad,

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurma...-one-becomes-confused-suffers.html#post139414
     
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  11. Randip Singh

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    Dear oh dear, this poor woman has had some serious abuse, and her family seem like nutters!!
     
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  12. Navdeep88

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    She mentions Sikhi very little, she talks much more of spirits and demons, and their influence in her family. The two cannot co-exist. Where there is light of God, there is nothing else.

    jah mahaa bha-i-aan doot jam dalai.
    tah kayval naam sang tayrai chalai.

    Im curious, what does "doot jam" refer to, in the above verse from sukhmani Sahib?
     
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  13. spnadmin

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    Navdeep ji

    You have put your finger on another unfortunate cultural practice -- that of throwing out a couplet of gurbani in order to teach a moral lesson --- typically ending up as missing the point completely.

    I have myself been threatened on the Internet several times with these two particular lines from sukhmani Sahib.

    Imagine! The sweetness of Guruji being used this way.
     
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  14. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Another way of looking at it is,

    ====================================================

    We need to enjoy the beautiful garden, orchard or bagh of sikhi. It is good to understand each and every tree, fruit, flower and leaf. But never to lose sight of the whole.
    ====================================

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  15. spnadmin

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    Full shabad

    ਜਹ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਸੁਤ ਮੀਤ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥
    jeh maath pithaa suth meeth n bhaaee ||
    Where there is no mother, father, children, friends or siblings

    ਮਨ ਊਹਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਹਾਈ ॥
    man oohaa naam thaerai sang sehaaee ||
    O my mind, there, only the Naam, the Name of the Lord, shall be with you as your help and support.


    ਜਹ ਮਹਾ ਭਇਆਨ ਦੂਤ ਜਮ ਦਲੈ ॥
    jeh mehaa bhaeiaan dhooth jam dhalai ||
    Where the great and terrible Messenger of Death shall try to crush you,

    ਤਹ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਚਲੈ ॥
    theh kaeval naam sang thaerai chalai ||
    there, only the Naam shall go along with you.


    ਜਹ ਮੁਸਕਲ ਹੋਵੈ ਅਤਿ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
    jeh musakal hovai ath bhaaree ||
    Where the obstacles are so very heavy,

    ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਖਿਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਉਧਾਰੀ ॥
    har ko naam khin maahi oudhhaaree ||
    the Name of the Lord shall rescue you in an instant.

    ਅਨਿਕ ਪੁਨਹਚਰਨ ਕਰਤ ਨਹੀ ਤਰੈ ॥
    anik punehacharan karath nehee tharai ||
    अनिक पुनहचरन करत नही तरै ॥
    By performing countless religious rituals, you shall not be saved.

    ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਾਪ ਪਰਹਰੈ ॥
    har ko naam kott paap pareharai ||
    The Name of the Lord washes off millions of sins.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ॥
    guramukh naam japahu man maerae ||
    As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, O my mind.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਸੂਖ ਘਨੇਰੇ ॥੧॥
    naanak paavahu sookh ghanaerae ||1||
    O Nanak, you shall obtain countless joys. ||1||


    When this particular couplet is thrown out, out of context, it looks as if Guruji is threatening us for misdeeds

    ਜਹ ਮਹਾ ਭਇਆਨ ਦੂਤ ਜਮ ਦਲੈ ॥
    jeh mehaa bhaeiaan dhooth jam dhalai ||
    Where the great and terrible Messenger of Death shall try to crush you,

    ਤਹ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਚਲੈ ॥
    theh kaeval naam sang thaerai chalai ||
    there, only the Naam shall go along with you.


    Inside the context of the saloka what you can see is that dhotth jam is something far more intensely personal and internal, it is a very psychological image, of the kind of thing that crushes the "spirit" at death when we have not connected with our true identity in life. Naam either grows in the heart in life and fills it, or the heart goes empty to death. This point is important because the juxtaposition of images describes the two poles of inner self that are possible at death.

    One can die completely crushed by the angel of death, so to speak, emotionally annihilated; versus the alternative which is to die "spirited" by the Naam. So sad that the habits of culture can destroy such a powerful meaning.
     
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  16. Navdeep88

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    I'm sorry I had no idea it was offensive to use a couplet without the full shabad. It wasnt my intent to ignore the whole, (or to use Gurbani an a "threat"?) but to offer an avenue for her particular situation. Shes obviously suffered a lot at the hands of her family but I found her reasoning very interesting. She describes the root of it as a spiritual issue.

    I was referring to her family's experience with demons and such, and how those spiritual issues can be cured by Gurbani. So I was curious if "doot jam" had anything to do with her situation (my punjabi translates "jam" to bad spirit) ... and the solution provided for it: naam.

    Thank you for providing your understanding, in the larger context. And I apologize for the improper use of Gurbani, I only did it to hopefully provide some solution to her issues...
     
  17. spnadmin

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    navdeep ji

    No need to apologize. I actually understood what you were doing and why you did it. I actually saw you zeroing in on a big part of the problem faced by youth today. Lack of context for why we do what we do. My criticism was directed at the general tendency to do this. In a way I wonder how much of that blurting out of tuks was part of the young woman's unhappy life. And thanks for continuing this conversation. Giving me a chance to explain.
     
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  18. Navdeep88

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    "In a way I wonder how much of that blurting out of tuks was part of the young woman's unhappy life."

    If she was in a household where she claims she was physically beaten, sexually abused from age 5 to 18, I would be very surprised if her family saw being Sikh as anything more than a label.
     
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  19. spnadmin

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    That is exactly what I wanted to say ... After 18 years of nothing but open and veiled threats.. threats followed up with abuse...or promises of being abused...when you are even told you can be threatened by Waheguru ji .. what happens to a person's soul?
     
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  20. Ambarsaria

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    If she sticks to her path nothing happens to her soul. I think she has very strong soul to survive and bounce back in life.

    True Sikhi should have helped and not hinder her internal discovery of God. For the time being it did not work and she has accepted an external God with her reduced internal strength. Perhaps it will provide her with a recpite of a peaceful moment and do better in life for herself and her family and daughter.

    Life is a complex puzzle. Who knows what tomorrow brings! May be in a few years her daughter will rebel against Christianity and embrace true Sikhi.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  21. Randip Singh

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    Actually after watching the video thoroughly I think she maybe actually lying. Why?

    She says her parents abused her because she was not born a boy? Yet then she says she has two brothers and two sisters? That makes no sense to me. Even the most sexist of Sikh families who want boys would be happy with two boys?
     
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