Atheism If I Don't Believe In God, Is Sikhism Pretty Pointless?

[max314]

You know that's why it adds up to 8.....

I'll probably kick myself when you tell me, but what's the significance of the number 8? :{-

 

[Anoop]

Sikhism in not an act but a religion...its from waheguru. Sikhism is not anything if there was no belief in god:}:

 

[max314]

Sikhism in not an act but a religion...

I think it's the reverse of that.

"Na koi Hindu, na joi Musalman" is an overt rejection of institutionalised religion.

its from waheguru.

It's "from" Guru Nanak, although it is about God.

Sikhism is not anything if there was no belief in god:}:

Guru-ji was attempting to stop the masses from living moralless lives praying to personified, idolised versions of God and attempting to get them to live virtous lives under the humility of one God.

 

[simpy]

I'll probably kick myself when you tell me, but what's the significance of the number 8? :{-

Respected MAX314,

8 signifies infinity.

Other meanings: super-abound; super abundant number; over and above the perfect completion;
8 is the dimension of the octonions and is the highest possible dimension of a normed division algebra; new life and new beginnings;
a number of karma; represents the unnatural world(4 represents the natural).

 

[max314]

Ah, okay...that's pretty neat

Is that why the symbol for 'infinity' is the number '8' flipped 90 degrees? :idea:

Very interesting indeed...I think I'm gonna do a bit of reading on the number 8 :}{}{}:

How's everything else going?

 

[Arvind]

Respected MAX314,

8 signifies infinity.

Other meanings: super-abound; super abundant number; over and above the perfect completion;
8 is the dimension of the octonions and is the highest possible dimension of a normed division algebra; new life and new beginnings;
a number of karma; represents the unnatural world(4 represents the natural).

That sounds so good. New life and new beginnings

 

[21khalsa13]

Respected MAX314,

8 signifies infinity.

Other meanings: super-abound; super abundant number; over and above the perfect completion;
8 is the dimension of the octonions and is the highest possible dimension of a normed division algebra; new life and new beginnings;
a number of karma; represents the unnatural world(4 represents the natural).

a number of karma representing the supernatural world linking the earthly realm to the cosmics ones

 

[BhagatSingh]

in my opinion, god deosnt get attracted or anything like that when we remember him/her... he/she doesnt care ... but if we do, he/she rewards us by letting us become one with him/her

 

[learner]

interesting topic

 

[kilemba]

Believe in a supreme creator is what defines man, regardless of which faith they profess. That's why you cannot be Sikh and not believe in the creator.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Believe in a supreme creator is what defines man, regardless of which faith they profess. That's why you cannot be Sikh and not believe in the creator.

What about the concept of Sargun and Nirgun?
Sargun meaning all attributes and nirgun meaning no attributes.
Existence is an attribute. Therefore, God has does not exist... even in Sikhism.

WAIT God has all attributes ... so he exists? yes.

NO YES NO...

What I mean is that you can make anything out of God! You're God is not the same as my God, but you're God is the same as my God.
For those of you who think that is contradictory. Let me tell you something, God is contradictory and guess what... he is not contradictory! Fascinating isnt it?
So what does this mean? what should I believe in?
This means that it doesn't matter if God exists or not, use your own brain (think rationally) and move on with your life. You can believe in God or you can be a non believer, either way you are a Sikh!

ਪੰਨਾ 98, ਸਤਰ 2
ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੈ ਜੀਉ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
निरगुणु सरगुणु हरि हरि मेरा कोई है जीउ आणि मिलावै जीउ ॥१॥
Nirguṇ sarguṇ har har merā ko▫ī hai jī▫o āṇ milāvai jī▫o. ||1||
My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||
ਮਃ 5 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਪੰਨਾ 128, ਸਤਰ 13
ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਆਪੇ ਸੋਈ ॥
निरगुणु सरगुणु आपे सोई ॥
Nirguṇ sarguṇ āpe so▫ī.
The Lord Himself is Unmanifest and Unrelated; He is Manifest and Related as well.
ਮਃ 3 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਪੰਨਾ 387, ਸਤਰ 18
ਸਰਗੁਣ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਥਾਪੈ ਨਾਉ ॥
सरगुण निरगुण थापै नाउ ॥
Sarguṇ nirguṇ thāpai nā▫o.
He is said to be of the highest attributes, and without attributes.
ਮਃ 5 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਪੰਨਾ 222, ਸਤਰ 2
ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਰਾਮੁ ਗੁਣਹ ਵਸਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
निरगुण रामु गुणह वसि होइ ॥
Nirguṇ rām guṇah vas ho▫e.
The Lord is without attributes; the attributes of virtue are under His control.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Guru Nanak's purpose was not to say if God existed or not, to him it DID NOT matter! His purpose was to improve the state of humanity. He used God's name to do that since everyone could relate to God. So he said we all are the children of the same God (or the concept of God, it doesn't matter).
Notice how he says God is served through serving humanity. That is what he places soooo much stress on "selfless service".
Page 1247, Line 17
ਸੋ ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੇਵਾ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਜੋ ਖਸਮੈ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
सो जपु तपु सेवा चाकरी जो खसमै भावै ॥
So jap ṯap sevā cẖākrī jo kẖasmai bẖāvai.
That is chanting and meditation, work and selfless service, which is pleasing to our Lord and Master.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


ਸੇਵਤ ਸੇਵਤ ਸਦਾ ਸੇਵਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਸਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਾਲੁ ॥
सेवत सेवत सदा सेवि तेरै संगि बसतु है कालु ॥
Sevaṯ sevaṯ saḏā sev ṯerai sang basaṯ hai kāl.
Serve, serve, forever serve the Lord. Death hangs over your head.
ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਹੋ ਕਾਟੀਐ ਜਮ ਜਾਲੁ ॥੧॥
करि सेवा तूं साध की हो काटीऐ जम जालु ॥१॥
Kar sevā ṯūʼn sāḏẖ kī ho kātī▫ai jam jāl. ||1||
Do seva, selfless service, for the Holy Saints, and the noose of Death shall be cut away. ||1|| Page 214, Line 9


Nanak found God or the concept of God very fascinating though. If you read Gurbani, you will find out how he finds it fascinating.

 

[kiram]

ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Ga▫oṛī gu▫ārerī mėhlā 5.
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

ਮਨੁ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਤਨੁ ਸਾਜੀ ਬਾਰਿ ॥
Man manḏar ṯan sājī bār.
The mind is the temple, and the body is the fence built around it.

ਇਸ ਹੀ ਮਧੇ ਬਸਤੁ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
Is hī maḏẖe basaṯ apār.
The infinite substance is within it.

ਇਸ ਹੀ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਸੁਨੀਅਤ ਸਾਹੁ ॥
Is hī bẖīṯar sunī▫aṯ sāhu.
Within it, the great merchant is said to dwell.

ਕਵਨੁ ਬਾਪਾਰੀ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਊਹਾ ਵਿਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
Kavan bāpārī jā kā ūhā visāhu. ||1||
Who is the trader who deals there? ||1||

ਨਾਮ ਰਤਨ ਕੋ ਕੋ ਬਿਉਹਾਰੀ ॥
Nām raṯan ko ko bi▫uhārī.
How rare is that trader who deals in the jewel of the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਆਹਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Amriṯ bẖojan kare āhārī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He takes the Ambrosial Nectar as his food. ||1||Pause||

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪੀ ਸੇਵ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥
Man ṯan arpī sev karījai.
He dedicates his mind and body to serving the Lord.

ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥
Kavan so jugaṯ jiṯ kar bẖījai.
How can we please the Lord?

ਪਾਇ ਲਗਉ ਤਜਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਤੇਰੈ ॥
Pā▫e laga▫o ṯaj merā ṯerai.
I fall at His Feet, and I renounce all sense of 'mine and yours'.

ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਜਨੁ ਜੋ ਸਉਦਾ ਜੋਰੈ ॥੨॥
Kavan so jan jo sa▫uḏā jorai. ||2||
Who can settle this bargain? ||2||

ਮਹਲੁ ਸਾਹ ਕਾ ਕਿਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
Mahal sāh kā kin biḏẖ pāvai.
How can I attain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence?

ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਬੁਲਾਵੈ ॥
Kavan so biḏẖ jiṯ bẖīṯar bulāvai.
How can I get Him to call me inside?

ਤੂੰ ਵਡ ਸਾਹੁ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਕੋਟਿ ਵਣਜਾਰੇ ॥
Ŧūʼn vad sāhu jā ke kot vaṇjāre.
You are the Great Merchant; You have millions of traders.

ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਲੇ ਸੰਚਾਰੇ ॥੩॥
Kavan so ḏāṯā le sancẖāre. ||3||
Who is the benefactor? Who can take me to Him? ||3||

ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਨਿਜ ਘਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Kẖojaṯ kẖojaṯ nij gẖar pā▫i▫ā.
Seeking and searching, I have found my own home, deep within my own being.

ਅਮੋਲ ਰਤਨੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਦਿਖਲਾਇਆ ॥
Amol raṯan sācẖ ḏikẖlā▫i▫ā.
The True Lord has shown me the priceless jewel.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਬ ਮੇਲੇ ਸਾਹਿ ॥
Kar kirpā jab mele sāhi.
When the Great Merchant shows His Mercy, He blends us into Himself.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਵੇਸਾਹਿ ॥੪॥੧੬॥੮੫॥
Kaho Nānak gur kai vesāhi. ||4||16||85||
Says Nanak, place your faith in the Guru. ||4||16||85||

 

[Randip Singh]

Since one of the foundational bases of Sikhism is the belief in God, and continually praising God, as one can see per gurbani...


is it pointless to call yourself a Sikh and not believe in God?

I am not really a believer, as one would say.

To get a bit deeper into the topic, if God does exist, what makes him a being to always be remembered?

I think the first question you should ask is what do you think the Sikh concept of God is?

 

[Archived_Member4]

This means that it doesn't matter if God exists or not, use your own brain (think rationally) and move on with your life. You can believe in God or you can be a non believer, either way you are a Sikh!

I have to disagree here Bhagat Singh ji,

In Jap ji Sahib on ang 3 Guru ji describes faithful people; ones who believe in God. Also Guru ji reminds the forgotten about the faithful in the morning for Jap ji Sahib is read in Amrit Vaylaa.

The state of the faithful cannot be described. One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt. No paper, no pen, no scribe can record the state of the faithful. Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. || 12 || The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence. The faithful know about all worlds and realms. The faithful shall never be struck across the face. The faithful do not have to go with the Messenger of Death. Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. || 13 || The path of the faithful shall never be blocked. The faithful shall depart with honor and fame. The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals. The faithful are firmly bound to the Dharma. Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. || 14 || The faithful find the Door of Liberation. The faithful uplift and redeem their family and relations. The faithful are saved, and carried across with the Sikhs of the Guru. The faithful, O Nanak, do not wander around begging. Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. || 15 || ang 3

Then before going to bed a Sikh reads Kirtan Sohila and here Guru ji tells us about faithless cynical people.

RAAG GAUREE POORBEE, FOURTH MEHL: The body-village is filled to overflowing with anger and sexual desire; these were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint. By pre-ordained destiny, I have met with the Guru. I have entered into the realm of the Lord.s Love. || 1 || Greet the Holy Saint with your palms pressed together; this is an act of great merit. Bow down before Him; this is a virtuous action indeed. || 1 || Pause || The wicked shaaktas, the faithless cynics, do not know the Taste of the Lord.s Sublime Essence. The thorn of egotism is embedded deep within them. The more they walk away, the deeper it pierces them, and the more they suffer in pain, until finally, the Messenger of Death smashes his club against their heads. || 2 || ang 13

Here Guru ji reminds us before going to bed that faithless cynics do not reach the one Lord. For there skeptical ways have drowned them in egotism

Here are some other shabads that disagree with what you have said.

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: Discarding the Ambrosial Nectar, they greedily grab the poison; they serve others, instead of the Lord. They lose their faith, they have no understanding; night and day, they suffer in pain. The blind, self-willed manmukhs do not even think of the Lord; they are drowned to death without water. || 1 || O mind, vibrate and meditate forever on the Lord; seek the Protection of His Sanctuary. If the Word of the Guru.s Shabad abides deep within, then you shall not forget the Lord. || 1 || Pause || ang 31

Here Guru ji is telling us those without faith in the One Lord do not serve the Lord, they serve others. And at the end they do not meet the One Lord


Engrossed in egotism, the world perishes. It dies and is re-born; it continues coming and going in reincarnation. The self-willed manmukhs do not recognize the Shabad; they forfeit their honor, and depart in disgrace. Ang 33

Serving the Guru, the Name is obtained, and one remains absorbed in the True Lord. || 3 || With faith in the Shabad, the Guru is found, and selfishness is eradicated from within. Night and day, worship the True Lord with devotion and love forever. The Treasure of the Naam abides in the mind; O Nanak, in the poise of perfect balance, merge into the Lord. || 4 || 19 || 52|| ang 34

This last shabad that I will present sums up everything

Those who do not have faith in the Primal Being, the True Guru, and who do not enshrine love for the Shabad.they take their cleansing baths, and give to charity again and again, but they are ultimately consumed by their love of duality. When the Dear Lord Himself grants His Grace, they are inspired to love the Naam. O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru. || 5 || 20 || 53 || ang 34

In this shabad Guru ji makes it crystal clear that one can give to charity again and again but if he/she do not have faith in the One Lord then they are consumed in the love of duality.

A Sikh is a Sikh who believes in the One Lord. And it does matter if a Sikh believes in the One Lord. Just read the above shabads to know why.

To believe in God means to believe in the creative being personified, no fear, no hatred, beyond birth, and self existent. One can sever others, but without faith in the One Lord they are only serving the people for they do not serve the One Lord. To serve the One Lord means to serve the One Lord with love and faith in your heart toward the One Lord and serving others will be serving the One Lord.

It is my humble request that anyone that disagrees with this please present Gurbani to say otherwise.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ka Fateh

 

[BhagatSingh]

I have to disagree here Bhagat Singh ji,

Oh of course! :}{}{}:

In Jap ji Sahib on ang 3 Guru ji describes faithful people; ones who believe in God.
Also Guru ji reminds the forgotten about the faithful in the morning for Jap ji Sahib is read in Amrit Vaylaa.

That is your disagreement?? Did you like only read one line in my post??
Read what Randip Singh ji said after,

I think the first question you should ask is what do you think the Sikh concept of God is?

Go back and read my post and try again. Actually, no go back, read and then UNDERSTAND my post and then try again.

and i am assuming you replied to only one line in my post so I am going to ignore the rest of your post. (BTW i wnt over it, just not gona bother replying)

 

[Archived_Member4]

Oh of course! :}{}{}:

That is your disagreement?? Did you like only read one line in my post??
Read what Randip Singh ji said after, Go back and read my post and try again. Actually, no go back, read and then UNDERSTAND my post and then try again.

and i am assuming you replied to only one line in my post so I am going to ignore the rest of your post. (BTW i wnt over it, just not gona bother replying)

Read the post again and you'll find where Gurbani proves you wrong and where Randip's question is answered. The whole post is one and at the end it comes to an conclusion that proves you wrong. Like i said if you don't have Gurbani to back up your statement then thats all it is a statement.

If you dont want to reply that's fine.

 

[Randip Singh]

Read the post again and you'll find where Gurbani proves you wrong and where Randip's question is answered. The whole post is one and at the end it comes to an conclusion that proves you wrong. Like i said if you don't have Gurbani to back up your statement then thats all it is a statement.

If you dont want to reply that's fine.

hi Singh ji,

have you an answer to my question?

 

[Archived_Member4]

hi Singh ji,

have you an answer to my question?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheuru Ji Ka Fateh ji

On this topic your question has been answered not by me, but by Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Your answer lies near the end of my original post. But here it is again

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: Discarding the Ambrosial Nectar, they greedily grab the poison; they serve others, instead of the Lord. They lose their faith, they have no understanding; night and day, they suffer in pain. The blind, self-willed manmukhs do not even think of the Lord; they are drowned to death without water. || 1 || O mind, vibrate and meditate forever on the Lord; seek the Protection of His Sanctuary. If the Word of the Guru.s Shabad abides deep within, then you shall not forget the Lord. || 1 || Pause || ang 31

Here Guru ji is telling us those without faith in the One Lord do not serve the Lord, they serve others. And at the end they do not meet the One Lord

To believe in God means to believe in the creative being personified, no fear, no hatred, beyond birth, and self existent. One can sever others, but without faith in the One Lord they are only serving the people for they do not serve the One Lord. To serve the One Lord means to serve the One Lord with love and faith in your heart toward the One Lord and serving others will be serving the One Lord.

And here is where Bhagat Singh ji gets proven wrong by Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Those who do not have faith in the Primal Being, the True Guru, and who do not enshrine love for the Shabad.they take their cleansing baths, and give to charity again and again, but they are ultimately consumed by their love of duality. When the Dear Lord Himself grants His Grace, they are inspired to love the Naam. O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru. || 5 || 20 || 53 || ang 34

 

[Archived_Member4]

Here something else that I have come across, well just take a read



An Atheist in the Woods.....

An atheist was walking through the woods.

'What majestic trees'!

'What powerful rivers'!

'What beautiful animals'!

He said to himself.



As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly bear charge towards him.

He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder & saw that the bear was closing in on him.



He looked over his shoulder again, & the bear was even closer. He tripped & fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw & raising his right paw to strike him.

At that instant the Atheist cried out, 'Oh my God!'



Time Stopped.

The bear froze.

The forest was silent.



As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. 'You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist and even credit creation to cosmic accident.' 'Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer'?

The atheist looked directly into the light, 'It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian'?



'Very Well,' said the voice.



The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:

'Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen.'

 

[Astroboy]

Page 981, Line 15
ਅਜਾਮਲ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ਕੀਨੀ ਕਰਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਬੋਲਾਰੇ ॥
अजामल प्रीति पुत्र प्रति कीनी करि नाराइण बोलारे ॥
Ajāmal parīṯ puṯar paraṯ kīnī kar nārā▫iṇ bolāre.
Ajaamal loved his son Naaraayan, and called out his name.
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]