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Atheism If I Don't Believe in God, Is Sikhism Pretty Pointless?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by S|kH, May 21, 2006.

  1. S|kH

    S|kH
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    Since one of the foundational bases of Sikhism is the belief in God, and continually praising God, as one can see per gurbani...


    is it pointless to call yourself a Sikh and not believe in God?

    I am not really a believer, as one would say.

    To get a bit deeper into the topic, if God does exist, what makes him a being to always be remembered?
     
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  3. Dimitri

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    Something I alway use to wonder, why does God want to be remebered, what does he get if ppl pray on his name etc. I use to doubt Gods existence, use to feel their is no supreme authority as such. Existence of God oneday you will feel for your self, coimg back to your question is Sikhism pointless without one's belief in God, in my opinion no. Teachings of SGGS does answer complex questions of life, live your life accordingly and in society u will be a good person, or stuff society your own conscience will be clean.
     
  4. ballym

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    Sikhism is for equality, love and many other points which you need in life. It teaches and guides you to best way of living....with love.God is just a name for the operating system of the universe. You may have your own definition which may be based on divine, sprituality or... science!
     
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  5. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    For comminsit,thier interpetation of Gurmat is to remove iddivudalism ie Ego and replace dedication to community.
     
  6. Dimitri

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    Truth is High but Truthful living is even Higher.
     
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  7. Prabjyot Kaur

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    It is a cosmic law, that, when we praise something, we attract it towards us.
    For example, when we praise a person, our friendship increases. So also, if we praise ‘good qualities such as: knowledge, purity etc.’, then these qualities are strengthened within us. Since both, humans and matter, is made-up by the same ‘cosmic life force’, the same law is applicable. Saints reached/became God by praising Him/ His qualities. This is a truth. This cosmic law is a hidden secret, known only to a few people.


    Praising is difficult. It requires constant training and alertness.

    AwKw jIvw ivsrY mir jwau ]
    aakhaa jeevaa visarai mar jaao ||
    Chanting it, I live; forgetting it, I die.
    AwKix AauKw swcw nwau ]
    aakhan aoukhaa saachaa naao ||
    It is so difficult to chant the True Name

    Gurbani/Sukhmani Sahib also says
    gun gwvq qyrI auqris mYlu ]
    gun gaavath thaeree outharas mail ||
    Chanting His Glories, your filth shall be washed off.

    This means that our mind is purified when we praise God and His world.

    So it is not ‘God’ that wants us to remember Him, but it is our Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji who guides us to do this; so we can meet the ‘ultimate’ goal of human life i.e. to merge our ‘Atma’(soul) with the Param-Atma (supreme soul).
     
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  8. simpy

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    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
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    Respected Sadh Sangat Ji,

    Every religion tells us about the different ways to remember God. So you can say every religion is a medium to remember God.

    And in Sikhi God is manifested in all the aspects of a Sikh’s life, as Guru Ji says "Ootath Bethath, Harr Harr Dhiyaye" even we are supposed to follow-"Aap japay avara naam japaavay".



    God is omnipresent-He is prevailing everywhere

    God is omniscient-He knows all the things
    And so on…..

    Then why remember Him.

    Well, He remembers us all the time, He takes care of us each and every second, He is with us anywhere and everywhere we go. He does not forget us, simply because He cannot. He is a part of His Creation.


    Eternally we(our real self) are the same way. Atma is a part of Parm Prmatma. Atma/Soul never forgets. This ‘forgetting’ happens to us, when the veil of maya covers up our minds. When the I-ness(ego) takes over our reality.
    ‘In reality We are not separate from God at any time, we just have forgotten our reality and are lost in this maya jaal’.

    So Guru Ji suggest us to remember God and sing His Praises. Forgetting happened to us, but we can always choose to remember. "Man too jot saroop hain apna mool pachhaan".

    (Not remembering and forgetting are two different things. You cannot forget something on purpose, but you can purpose not to remember something.)

    Praising and Meditating on God, helps us experience God within us. By forgetting our reality we become our finite self, and by remembering God we experience infinity, which has no boundaries and we can reach our highest potential.

    By remembering God we bring our body, mind and Soul in harmony.
     
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  9. max314

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    It depends how one defines God.

    If he's a guy with a white beard sitting in a chair, then that's one thing.

    But if he isn't even a 'he' or a 'she' and is the very fabric of the cosmos in a way that is beyond the realm of our five senses to experience and has no human traits (including 'will'' in the way that we understand it), then it is quite possible (and actually quite probable) that there is some kind of indescript force out there within which everything is contained.

    When it comes to questions of volition and free will, it's best to simply know your own self. We can't ever know what the grand truth behind the veil is...and even if we did, what use would we have for that information?

    What matters is how we live our lives.

    That's the important thing.

    We give meaning to our lives by the choices that we make. If our choices lead to lives full of love and experience, if we have discovered ourselves and made the choice to grasp life and live it for all it's worth, that is purpose enough. In a world where we can't be sure of anything - real or illusion - it is enough to know ourselves.

    So God...is like a person?

    A God without fear, without enmity who is both unborn and self-existent seems to be the furthest thing from human.

    Praising God is not about making God feel good.

    It's about keeping us humble to the Greater Force that is out there.

    Again...treating God like a person.

    I don't think this is right.

    God may be personified to allow him to fit the mere human poetics of the Granth, but that doesn't mean that God is human.

    "Gurmat" has been misinterpreted.

    "Gur mat" means "the way of the Guru".

    But which Guru?

    This is Sat Guru. God himself...who exists within each of us without words, without books, without texts of clever poetry, for he has no need for such human trivialities.

    Wearing certain clothes or doing certain practices does not automatically make the dark-hearted into a Gurmat.

    Absolutely.

    "Kirt karo" comes above and before "naam japo".
     
    #8 max314, May 29, 2006
    Last edited: May 29, 2006
  10. Anoop

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    Well, there is a place where things stay forever and that thing always exists and has no origin but itself. What better way but to call it god.

    The light of god, is to immense and undescribable. Now how does things work properly...well you need to have love for something as mentioned before by prabjyot kaur ji, and when you have love for something then you give the love back naturally to that thing.

    God is the feeling you get of a creator behind eveything. But it wont work in the mind. It will only work in the heart. You have to have love for god in order to experience and become part of god or god itself. Sometimes people look into themselves when meditating, but that again is ego. When you meditate on something you dont know of but can feel it and have love for it, hten your love for it will expand and you will eventually become it.

    Sikhism was only made by god. Sikhism came from god, the gurus realised god and they became gods light and so created god. Whatever happens god is god that always existed without anything else.

    This life works with love for god. You dont have to be sikh to follow god. The thing is, sikhism is the ultimate step to god anyway, but there is always a time for things, for example sikhism was needed in those time. You cant rush to see god. God doesnt want you to fall in love with him for the sake of it.

    You will straight away fail. You must have love for god. People have different levels of god inside them. Dont look for god outside, as god is in your heart.

    If you have passion for something turn that into a way you will remember and reach up to god. For example, if you have passion for music, then listen to shabad. If you love reading books, read the guru granth sahib ji.

    You have to put devotion of love to god in order to get a straight feedback from god. Remember it may take time for some people, depending on how much love you have for god.

    Goodluck!
     
  11. simpy

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    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
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    Respected max314,


    Knowing the grand truth behind the veil –IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF HUMAN LIFE.

    Yes it matters how we live our life and the task of knowing your real self is an inseparable part of it.


    He is not out there somewhere, HE IS EVERYWHERE, IN THE MENIFESTED AND THE UNMENIFESTED FORM.

    First of all what you are referring to mere human poetics of the Granth are not simply human poetics. It is DHUR KI BANI, It is the WORD OF GOD HIMSELF. The ALMIGHTY/GOD/AKAL PURAKH spoke through the Gurus in their state of Oneness with Him.

    jYsI mY AwvY Ksm kI bwxI qYsVw krI igAwnu vy lwlo ]
    SGGS Page-722

    As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.
    Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is explaining Bhai Lalo, how amidst of all (human) suffering we must not forget to remember God. As He issues His Commands according to His judgement.

    Dur kI bwxI AweI ] iqin sglI icMq imtweI ] dieAwl purK imhrvwnw ] hir nwnk swcu vKwnw ]

    SGGS Page- 628

    The Bani of His Word emanated from the Primal Lord. It eradicates all anxiety. The Lord is merciful, kind and compassionate. Nanak chants the Naam, the Name of the True Lord.

    For a Sikh Bani is Limitless Divine Source or the Eternal Spirit, a true Guide, Sat Guru. And- Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani Vich Bani Amrit Saarey.

    Bani did not come from mere scholar minds, it is 'Elahi Sandesh' (Divine message).


    Your point about God being a person does not make any sense. WHEN WE HAVE TO WRITE/TALK ABOUT GOD/ALMIGHTY WE HAVE TO USE SOME LANGUAGE INDICATORS (ABOUT WHAT WE ARE TALKING). That does not mean we are treating God like a person.



    Above remarks shows that your perception goes somewhat like this:

    God is out there somewhere, and Guru is Inside. You are also saying Sat Guru is God.

    So what about the Greater Force you mentioned- Is it different from God? One statement shows "God" is separated from us, and very far away. Another says He is Within us.



    Dhan Dhan Bhagat KabirJi

    SGGS Page 1158

    mwQy iqlku hiQ mwlw bwnW ]maathae thiluk hath maalaa baanaa
    Some apply ceremonial marks to their foreheads, hold malas in their hands, and wear religious robes.

    logn rwmu iKlaunw jwnW ]1]logun raam khilounaa jaanaa
    Some people think that the Lord is a play-thing. ||1||

    jau hau baurw qau rwm qorw ]jo ho bouraa tho raam thoraa
    If I am insane, then I am Yours, O Lord.

    logu mrmu kh jwnY morw ]1] rhwau ]log murum keh jaanai moraa
    How can people know my secret? ||1||Pause||

    qorau n pwqI pUjau n dyvw ]thoro n paathee poojo n dhaevaa
    I do not pick leaves as offerings, and I do not worship idols.

    rwm Bgiq ibnu inhPl syvw ]2]raam bhugath bin nihuful saevaa
    Without devotional worship of the Lord, service is useless. ||2||

    siqguru pUjau sdw sdw mnwvau ]sathigur poojo sudhaa sudhaa munaavo
    I worship the True Guru; forever and ever, I surrender to Him.

    AYsI syv drgh suKu pwvau ]3]aisee saev dhurugeh sukh paavo
    By such service, I find peace in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

    logu khY kbIru baurwnw ]log kehai kubeer bouraanaa
    People say that Kabeer has gone insane.

    kbIr kw mrmu rwm pihcwnW ]4]6]kubeer kaa murum raam pehichaanaa
    Only the Lord realizes the secret of Kabeer. ||4||6||


    God’s Worship, Singing His Praises, Feeling His Presence Within And Without, and Continuous Communion With Him are the basic things one has to do on the Spiritual Path. And to get to a point where one can actually acquire these habits, one need to develop devotion towards the Almighty. And devotion comes with intense faith and surrender. Faith and surrender can be to a Guru or God/Almighty/Shiva/What ever you want to name God. (As ultimately one recognizes that there is no difference) Sacred Books and company of devoted Sadhaks/Sikh/ are of great help in cultivating these two qualities in a Sadhak. Faith and Surrendering mean "the worship", “the respect for the higher:Guru/God”, “the obedience to the higher”, “not to argue it out”, “not to react”; “acceptance”, “absorption”. And eventually it becomes one-pointed devotion.
     
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  12. max314

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    Hi there, Ms. Cheema.

    I respect that sentiment. But might one enquire to what end "knowing the grand truth behind the veil" serves?

    The grand truth, according to Gurbani, is Ek Onkar. There is no greater truth than this.

    But the main purpose of human life, according to Guru Nanak, is to do one's life duties and to live a family life that is dictated by steadfast humanistic morals and a humility under God.



    Indeed.

    And if "your real self" is in fact being part of Waheguru himself, then - humbled by this knowledge - we should do what we are here to do.

    Live life.




    I am in complete concordance with you.



    Words are human. The letters of Gurmukhi, the words of the Persians, the poetic structure of Sanskrit literature existed well before Guru Nanak set foot on this Earth.

    The words, the poetic form...this is all a man-made construct. The Gurus used this man-made construct to communicate ideas to us that are impossible to represent entirely with these limited Words of Men. That is why poetry is an exercise in the abstract, not the literal. That is why poetry aims at inciting emotion intuition, and not logical reason and rationale in the most scientific sense.





    Indeed. Through inspiration of experiencing the divine, Master Nanak expresses his experiences in the form of human words.

    "Limitless"? No, I don't think so.

    There is only One Concept that is truly limitless. And I think we both know what this is.

    Absolutely.

    We are limited by human language and human concepts to express God...this is why it can only be done poetically and not using logic.

    This also means that the True Nature of God is defiant to humans. Not even Gurbani can transcend the limits of language.


    No, I'm afriad you have mistaken my sentiments.

    I did not say that "God is out there somewhere". I said quite the opposite.

    And yes, the only "Sat Guru" (literally "True Guru") is God.

    The "Greater Force" I refer to is just another name to refer to God in all his infiniteness. Nothing more.

    Quite right. I wish more people would read that and understand what it means.


    Indeed. Absolution of the Self into the being of the One is the ultimate realisation.

    Again, it all comes back to the ultimate revelation:

    Ek Onkar
     
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  13. simpy

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    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
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    Respected max314





    God and Guru:


    When one says, Bani is Poetry, not based on actual logic and all this; this is until one does not know the real meaning of the verses. Mere understanding of the literal translations keeps us in a limited field of the real truth.

    One example:

    siqnwmu krqw purKu inrBau inrvYru Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM gurpRswid ] ] jpu ] Awid scu jugwid scu ] hY BI scu nwnk hosI BI scu ]

    SGGS Page 1

    Everybody who believes; God is one, says he/she believes in it. Yes, He is One and only one. Yes, His name is True. Yes, He is the Creative Being. Yes, He the Absolute, is Without fear and animosity. and so on…..

    Does everybody live this truth.
    Unless and until you live Bani (what Bani Says), you cannot know the real meaning of it.

    When we say that we have to surrender ourselves to Guru/God it means, what Bani says, we believe it without question, and we live that truth.

    Take “Karta Purkh” from the above verse: If we have to follow Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji we must accept the will of God, as He is doing everything, He is the Creator, the Destroyer, the Liberator, the Sustainer and so on….. As He is Within us, we cannot think apart from Him, We cannot see apart from Him, We cannot speak apart from Him,……..Truly we cannot do anything apart from Him. So He is the one performing all the tasks within and without.

    Are all those who say they know He is the Karta Purkh actually living it. Are they able to accept His Will. And if they are (whosoever is living this truth) can never think that Bani is limited because it is words and language. “Bani Guru Guru hai Bani Vich Bani Amrit Saarey”; language or words cannot make it limited. It is limited only when our vision is limited.

    If we keep ourselves to a point where we only read Bani, understand it and that’s it, not following the teaching in real life, it will be poetry with limited meanings and in limited form. But when you live it you actually get the taste of it. You realize it only after complete surrender; Satguru ki Agyaa Sach Sach Kar Mano Gursikho, only then you will be able to understand how it becomes: Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani, And Guru is NO DIFFERENT THAN GOD, be Guru a Living Guru or Bani. For a Sikh Bani is the only Guru.

    From a True (living) Guru what a Disciple attains: all what Bani says. That is why a Sikh does not have to follow a living human as Guru and he/she does not have chances to fall into the trap of falsehood. (As there are many out there misleading the humanity)

    This notion that Human being a Mortal, cannot be same as Guru/God; is wrong, Our Guru’s lived on this Earth as humans and it is their Realization of the Truth that made them Guru. And it is their Realization that Guru Granth Sahib is our Eternal Guru.

    For Soul/Spirit there is no barrier of language. The Guru is God, and God is Spirit. He is everywhere. “Guru Mere Sang Sadaa Hai Naalay”.
     
  14. Anoop

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    Exactly, well said.

    People are too concerned about where god is, and this leads to them getting depressed. First of all, i think max ji, you might be confused and worried thinknig that there is nothing at al but god who can save you in life. And that is true. God, is the love you give bby loving him in a faithful way. First you need knowledge of god, and only then you can start to love god. Without knowledge there is nothing to love.

    Dont rush to things. I rushed to things, but slowly and slowly i picked up on the knowledge. Think of this life as a concious development of our souls. This world is a play and is all in the mind. God is what is already there and that already exists. It is like the platform and foundation of everything. It can be discovered by yyour inner self, because since everything is god, yourself is the closest thing you will find in this life that is clsoe to god. So you start to meditate and try and find god by your inenr self. God is not outside. God is already there, its not about where god is, its about realising and seeing gods light.

    Why do we do this, to break the cycle of births and death. Everything in this life is perfect the way it is, its only yourself's mind that makes it look like there are problems. The thing is in order to find god, you will have to love god to see god. God is like the origin, and god is like the open door to the truth. You have to start meditating and begin to love god in a way that makes your heart devote to god. The best thing to do is by listening to passionate shabad or do anything that will remind you of god in a fun loving way. Do it your way, as you do it in a way that is fun and loving, your heart will eventually start to seek for god. You have to build up love for something that you have a feeling is the ultiamte truth and is infinite and never ending. Like love it and know that there is no boundary to it.

    Your heart will get used to this, that feeling of love for a creator will increase, and you will eventually act the way you are and be able to cope with life the way you should be coping with it.

    And remember, dont belive in god because your finding this life hard, love god because this life is an adventure. Describing god is impossible because it is like describing the whole world...impossible!

    God is there, the only reason why you think its far is because your doing to much to go close to god when infact nothing is working. So you should remember god and pray to god in a way you will fall in love with the one word ''GOD''. Remember that in your heart and listen to shabad and something to makes you fall in love with the word, and the door will be open.

    Goodluck!!

    Dont worry where god is...try realise god instead!
     
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    #13 Anoop, May 30, 2006
    Last edited: May 30, 2006
  15. max314

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    Hey there again, Surinder. I appologise for my absence, but I had to go down to Portsmouth to give an exam.

    Anyway, reading your response, there is a lot of 'you must accept' this and 'you don't need logic to believe' that.

    Of course, if you wish to believe in something for the sake of believing in it, that is totally fine by me. The last thing I am here to do is tell anyone that they're wrong for believing what they wish. That would be both ignorant and foolish, and these are two qualities I strive to distance myself from as much as possible :}{}{}:

    Nevertheless, when it comes to debating and discussing and developing ideas and thoughts - as forums like this are designed to do - very little of this can be acheived on the basis of blind submission alone since this restricts the view of debate, narrowing it to a level whereby one cannot stray outside of those submitted beliefs.

    Indeed, challenging another's beliefs only ends in tears, which is why I realise that one must tread carefully when communicating their views on a subject as potentially combustible as religion (arguably the single most volatile belief system on the planet).

    However, I'd like to make a very friendly proposition. Just hear me out, and if you don't like what I have to say, then you can just ignore me :u):

    Allow me to ask you why it is that you choose to believe what you do? Indeed, allow me to ask if it was really even your choice to believe what you do?

    By reading your name (which is the same as my bhuah, by the way ;)), I think it's fairly safe to assume that you - like myself - were born into a Punjabi family that considers itself belonging to the Sikkh faith and its community? If this is so, then this would quite naturally mean that, since the year dot, we have been raised with a certain perception of reality. Being raised in Sikkh families, our religious reality was "Sikkhi is the absolute Truth, what Gurbani says is pure and infinite and divine and straight from God, what other religions say may be partly right, but they are not as correct as ours". There is also an underlying fear that is built into our psyches: the fear of asking "why?"

    You see, when we ask "why?", it means that we are questioning the very foundation upon which our ideological principles are built. This is never a comfortable experience. It's so much easier...soooooo much easier...to just have a text in front of you that you can believe contains words that know no limits and can be taken at face value without the need of any added insight. The fact that we can be confident that we are reading 'The Word Of God' and thus have no fear that what we are reading is completely and utterly correct.

    But even the Master says:

    "One may read for years and for years,
    And spend every month of the year in reading only;
    And thus read all one's life,
    Right up to one's last breath.
    Of all things, a contemplative life
    Is what really matters
    ;
    All else is the fret and fever of egoistic minds."
    ~ Guru Nanak ~

    Reading, it is said, can only get one so far. To reflect, to meditate, to contemplate...to think with the mental faculty granted to you by God in living one's life is the true value. To take what you have read and learned and to think upon it...to ask "why?"...and trust that God has granted you the power to answer that question for yourself.

    Imagine if Guru Nanak had not asked "why?" to the pundit who was to tie the thread around his waist? Imagine if Guru Nanak did not ask "why" the Hindus were throwing water at the Sun?

    Imagine if the Guru had not contemplated upon these matters...we would not even be sitting here discussing whether or not he and God were the same entity.

    "Out of the cotton of compassion
    Spin the thread of contentment,
    Tie the know of contience,
    and the twist of virtue;
    Make such a sacred thread;
    O Pundit, for your inner self."
    ~ Guru Nanak ~

    The fact of the matter remains that the idea of the Gurus and God being one and the same is not an idea that is enacted within the pages of the Granth...it is enacted by our parents (and their parents before them, and there parents before them...all the while being influenced by the norms of the then-society as opposed to the statements in the Gurbani itself) who subconsciously project this image every time they refer to a picture of one of the Gurus as "baba-ji". If I told you now - today, as a fully mature adult - that I am an incarnation of God and that everything I say is due to me being God's representative hear on Earth, you'd throw a rotten tomato at my face and walk away, such is the conclusion of logical thought. And yet...our parents and the society around us can say these things about Master Nanak and we accept it as a fact. This is simply because this is how we've been conditioned - effectively from birth - to believe a certain concept. Of that, we have little control over. But what we do have control over is to start from scratch. To remove those social conditionings to an extent that allows us to free our mental perspective and ask the "what if" questions that our subsonscious may consider taboos.

    What's interesting is that the Guru never said he was God. And yet we believe otherwise.

    Heh...I was watching Unleashed today (original title was Danny The Dog, but we all know what the Hollywood machine is like :D ) and the main character in that is played by Jet Li. I don't know if you've seen it but the film basically has Jet Li turned into a killer-on-demand...the ultimate hound who is controlled through conditioning to beat anyone and anything to a pulp on the say-so of his master.

    "It's like my saint of a mum used to say: get 'em young, and the possibilities are endless."

    Such is the state of so many 'religious' people.

    In the beginning, sure, it's a little frightening. But once you take one step...than another...then another...you realise that you're actually just fine. That, actually, Guru Nanak's message really does make sense. That you don't need to believe in anything except for the Oneness of All, and that this grants one the power to feel at one with everything to the extent that every passage in Gurbani suddenly makes perfect sense and connects in one coherent whole...maybe in a way that could never have been done through the restricted peep-hole of merely blind faith alone.

    Well, that's my opinion. Hope you at least had a little fun reading it :ice:

    99% sweet cookie, 1% arsenic :wink:

    Don't worry about telling me where God is, my friend...if you've read my post (heck, if you've read the Mool Mantra) then you'll know what my perception of God is. I understand and have more "knowledge" than you might think :}{}{}:

    I have enough "knowledge" to tell you that, whilst it is healthy to keep God in mind at all times, it is also very healthy to live the life that God has handed to you :D

    Miri and Piri both, remember...some people like to overlook Miri because it's so much easier to focus on the fantastical and the abstract and the unknowable than on the harsher realities...which can actually be much more easily faced if one has an awareness of God's true nature and his relation to us.
     
    #14 max314, Jun 2, 2006
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2006
  16. Anoop

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    lol...sorry about that max ji.

    To tell you the truth, the recent message you have written, i really liekd it, and i agree with you...

    We are fine the way we are. People say we should become sikhi etc, but they dont know what the meaning is. I am a sikh but i was so depressed ebcause i wanted to make a decision about whether i should have kesh or not. But i knew it would be hard for me...am i doing it for god? I dont think it was...i think it was just me trying to panic about whether i will be with god at the end or not. But i realised, everything is perfect the way it is, there was a reason that khalsa was brought, its to do with time. People create a bad impression about sikhism, because they think its a fun way to show others that its a fantasy quest and we are right etc...Its just making us like muslims in islam, they show off about their religion. In fact, i dont belive in religion, i belive in sikhism ofcourse because it was not a religion but gods message at that time. It depends on the person...god made us perfect, and the whole world is perfect, do you think some of us will have time to read every bit of the gurbani and see the divine light. It is up o you, if your capable and have time for it. It depends on what life you live, as lng as you act the way god wants you to act, and have faith in waheguru ji, its all love and devotion for god.
     
  17. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Max314,

    Well my dear, we can tear apart one faith and fabricate another based on our own convenience. It is the very nature of a human being when we don’t like(in fact it is the mind’s play) something, we try to find something that suits us and can provide all the supporting arguments for that.

    Myself, as you understood by my name, born into a Sikh family, and then married into one. My father, not an AmritDhari, but a very Spiritual person, raised us(four sisters) no different than boys, we all are very well educated, carrier oriented, with God’s grace very well settled.

    My elder three sisters( 8-15 years older than me) are not into Sikhi at all. Even my husband is a clean-shaven.

    Since I was a little girl, I used to be fond of going to Mandir/Gurudwara/Church. Listening and reading anything related to God was my passion. Being brought up in Chandigarh, I had the opportunity to learn different languages and then started reading religious and phylosophy books, whatever I got hold of. Gathered all the knowledge (as I was looking for an answer to WHY all this, WHY all that) and what belief I developed was:


    God is everywhere, anything and everything happens at His Will, All religious faiths(if studied deeply) boils down to one thing- Experiencing God; does not matter which way they do it. Only thing is that you have to go beyond the religion. Being religious and being God-realized are different. Religion can be the first step, but cannot be the only step. You have to have a mind set for accepting God’s Will, as it is. You have to accept others same as you are. You need to be forgiving, you need to be able to overlook others mistakes; you need to be able to speak the truth. When it is time to follow a Guru, you have to completely surrender (provided the Guru you have chosen is the Perfect). You need a guru who can lead you to that “I AM ALL” state, there started the search for a true Guru. And my ultimate decision became Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Bible and Gita.


    My father always said- Religion is a mixture of sand and sugar, and you have to separate the sugar out and leave the sand alone. And this is the hardest thing to do. But if you can develop this ability, Salvation is not far away.


    I read Gita, Bible, Vedas, Kuran, Tohra, SGGS, Books on Bahai Faith, and every other book on spirituality I could get hold on to. It is my own experience that tells me that SGGS, Gita, and Bible can be treated as the Guru(by itself) as these are the only ones which covers everything needed for a Sadhak. Other religions when you deeply study them- you need to actually follow a living Guru who can actually initiates you.

    For myself Sikhi is not :Amrit Shakna only, Not associating with other people who are not Sikhs, Guru’s Picture is Baba Ji(those people who painted the pictures never saw Guru Sahib, how do they even know how they looked like), Fearing of asking WHY, Believing Bani is God’s Word BECAUSE SOMEBODY TOLD ME.

    90% of the Sikhs think that they are better than others because they are Sikhs, and you know what I think; this is the point where the downfall starts. Egoism was the reason, this Sikhi( you can call it a religion, faith or a way of life) was started, and it is the most egoistic set of people at present. When I look at all these different kinds of Churches, it gives me a picture of different kinds of Gurudwaras. And Christianity is an old religion, whereas we are only 500some years old.


    I will write you more later, I am very busy for a couple of weeks. I have not even corrected my punctuations etc. Please forgive me for any mistakes.

    Guru Bhala Karey.
     
  18. max314

    max314
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    You've got it.

    The universe is perfect.

    That's what Master Nanak was saying from the outset. Those who chose to listen to him (and no, they are not 'Sikkhs' :}{}{}:) found peace. Those who never understood his message and continue in their empty rituals (and yes, these are 'Sikkhs' :}{}{}:) are still at odds with themselves and with the universe. Like you say, you were depressed about not knowing "should I?"/"shouldn't I?" with regards to keeping your hair. You soon reailsed that this was nothing more than a triviality of the physical body. It meant next-to-nothing in terms of God.

    ----

    "Pilgrimages, penances, compassion and alms-giving
    Bring little merit, the size of a sesame seed.
    But he who hears and believes and loves the Name
    Shall bathe and be made clean
    In a aplace of pilgrimage within him."

    ~Guru Nanak, 'Guru Granth Sahib', Japji, p.4 ~

    ----​

    As you rightly said, what the Gurus did was an intelligent analysis of what was required at the time.

    The funny thing is that so many Sikkhs are stuck in a time warp that is over three centuries old.

    I'll leave you to derive your own humour from that :wink:

    Hehe...a religion that apparently provides one with all the answers and seems to give one an easy, singular path through life? What's not to "like"? :}{}{}:

    It's actually tougher to question yourself. That's the hardest thing to do. It's the last place most people want to go. It's the scariest place in the world.

    But once you go there and make it through the fighting phase, you emerge stronger, nobler and more focussed than you ever thought you could be.

    It can be a hard road...but think of it as a long-term investment.

    The things I say about Sikkhi didn't start with me saying "I don't like this". As I said, the easiest thing in the world to do is just to keep your head down and follow the one in front. But I have always had a questioning nature (my parents will tell you stories about how I used to freak 'em out...when I was four) and simply seeing all of the apparent hypocrisies that were occuring within Sikkhism are what lead me to finally throw down the gauntlet to the faith and to deconstruct its mechanics and see what was really behind it all.

    What I write is not a 'reinvention' of any discription. No. It is an attempt to deconstruct the reinvention that has already taken place over many generations and to view Gurbani in the purest possible light, uncorrupted by what 'Uncle-ji' reckons it means.



    Congratulations :D

    Forget punctuation, this is excellent stuff :}{}{}: I am in total accordance with much of this. Two things that stood out that you said:

    My father always said- Religion is a mixture of sand and sugar, and you have to separate the sugar out and leave the sand alone. And this is the hardest thing to do. But if you can develop this ability, Salvation is not far away.

    Your father is a wise man, indeed. This is effectively what I am doing. Separating 'sand' and 'sugar' as it were. You might want to call it 'reinventing religion to suit myself', but with your amalgamation of teachings from the Gita, Bible and Granth, it seems as though you and me are pretty much in the same boat: to get to the essence of truth that underlies all spiritual journeys.

    As you so rightly say:

    God is everywhere, anything and everything happens at His Will, All religious faiths(if studied deeply) boils down to one thing- Experiencing God; does not matter which way they do it. Only thing is that you have to go beyond the religion.

    Going "beyond religion" is precisely right. Religions are human constructs, and not those of God. Heh...God has no use for religion ("na koi Hindu, na kio Musalman"). It is a way for us to quantify a particular set of beliefs. The thing is that you then go on to 'choosing a Guru'. Whereas you have chosen one (or a few, culminating in a whole, from which you take the elements that your own God-given judgement tells you is correct), I have decided that my 'guru' is the Mool Mantra. Even moreso than this, I have decided that "Ek Onkar" is my ultimate 'guru'. It just makes sense to me on every conceiveable level. It unites everything that seems to be conflicting into one unified whole...and I feel at peace with that.

    Then, of course, there are the incredible poetries of the Granth that exemplify how one should live a moral life (with a nice side-serving of Guru Nanak's wit...yeesh, the guy must have been a blast to hang with :}{}{}:) and everything just...falls into place.

    I too have some knowledge of the Hindu scriptures, and there are details in there that are also quite beautiful. In particular:

    ----

    "In him are woven the sky and the earth and all the regions of the air, and in him rest the mind and all the powers of life. Know him as the ONE and leave aside all other words. He is the bridge of immortality.

    Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is reason, its essence. Beyond reason is the Spirit in man, and beyond this is the Spirit of the Universe, the evolver of all.

    When the five senses and the mind are still, and reason itself rests in silence, then begins the Path supreme.

    And when he is seen in his immanence and transcendence, then the ties that have bound the heart are unloosened, the doubts of the mind vanish, and the law of Karma works no more."


    ~ Extracts from the Upanishads ~

    ----​

    I find it to be no coincidence that Guru Gobind Singh Ji translated so many of the Hindu texts during peace time.

    Then, of course, there is the reminder from the Bible that all on this Earth are naught but temporary delusions:

    ----

    "Of Kings and Counsellors of the Earth who bult for themselves palaces now lying in ruins."

    ~ Job 3:14 ~

    ----​

    Where did you think my alias came from? :wink:
     
    #17 max314, Jun 2, 2006
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2006
  19. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected MAX314,

    I knew about your alias, that's why i been writting it in full.

    Anyways, i am really very busy for some days. I found some time this morning out of my busy schedule to write you. I hope it will instigate some thought and deep scratching within.

    It is great that you consider "Ek Omkar" your GURU.

    Start living it, this is the key.


    Guru Bhala Karey.
     
  20. max314

    max314
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    Heehee...thanks :}{}{}:The "314" is also a reference to the first three integers of pi. It is thought that 'pi' is the anomaly of the universe...a mathematical expression that recurs throughout nature (including the human genetic code and the number of genetic diseases that occur are also linked to this number). The fact that it is integral in its use in calculations involving cycles and circles gives an indication that the universe works in a cyclical, spherical fashion i.e. the universe (like planets and stars) has a central alpha/omega point (that is located at the point of the Big Bang) that further suggests the possibility that the universe works on cyclic principles.

    But that's all for another day...


    :up:

    Well, it is the only Sat Guru (True Guru) after all :wink:

    I'm doing my best :}{}{}:
     
  21. simpy

    simpy
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    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
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    You know that's why it adds up to 8.....
     

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