Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

If everything happens according to Hukam, then why do we pray?

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Searching, Aug 5, 2012.

Tags:
  1. Searching

    Searching
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    218
    Dear SPNers.I was going through this thread "Sikhism and Black Magic" in this forum when I read people say everything is hukam and one should not worry about going to babas or black magicians for benefit.

    One often comes around the work "Hukam" in Sikhism. I think it means God's will. If everything happens to his will then what is point in "Ardas".
    Or does God change his will for those who pray?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Everything happens for a reason ! Spiritual Articles May 8, 2006
    Everything is relative Blogs Oct 17, 2015
    First There is Water by which Everything is Made Green Gurmat Vichaar Jun 1, 2013
    SciTech Theory of Everything: Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Breaking News Jan 30, 2013
    Sunn-Is it nothing or everything? Essays on Sikhism Dec 15, 2012

  3. Amarpal

    Amarpal
    Expand Collapse
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    364
    In our life, 'Hukam' works at micro level. What ever we do, the response from the 'Sat' comes through 'Hukam'.

    When we pray, we seek the blessings of the 'Sat' a for successful out come of some act of ours. The cosmic forces may reinforce our efforts which we have made to achieve the desired end, if and only if, that desired end is part of the mission of life of the person, else it gets ignored. This way only what is preordained, one gets.

    Thus prayers are to reinforce our effort for the desired outcome.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  4. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,120
    Likes Received:
    7,947
    I would describe it more as God's suggestion, in line with his will, whether we take it or not defines us as manmukh or Gurmukh, in my opinion
     
  6. Kamala

    Kamala
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    145
    Why not pray? If you are really a Sikh that would be a really funny question to ask since all of our Guru jis cannot stress how important it is to pray!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,120
    Likes Received:
    7,947
    Prayer is for the self, not Creator.

    Reasons for praying could be for more grace, strength, wisdom, perception in order to deal with a situation.

    Creator does not need prayers, they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, maybe good prayers could be added to that!

    I see no point personally in praying, for the very reason that you either follow Hukam, or you don't. If you don't, then its a bit rich to go whinning back to Creator requesting divine intervention just because you would rather behave like a manmukh.

    Our Gurus stressed the importance of understanding Bani and living Bani, I would say truthful living is more important than prayer.

    For the record, Kamalaji, I do not pray
     
    • Like Like x 5
    #6 Harry Haller, Aug 5, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
  8. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Messages:
    451
    Likes Received:
    895
    It would amount to Fatalism or determinism . However, Complacent fatalism has become a fashion.

    God has all the powers and sikhi envisages His grace as an important element of theology and philosophy. In fact, sikhism is called, sometimes, as a religion of Grace.

    Nothing stops Him to extend the grace where it is needed. Prayer is the media that satisfies human beings that they have done their best to be come eligible for unfettered powers of Grace of God. It is to me is a plain logic as to why we do Ardas or prayer.

    Tenth Master has also stated, though I would need a quote to support it and that I have none right now, that he listens to the poor[needy] quickly.

    Yes, it is true that everything happens as His plan but He can also bestow grace upon us and provide temporary accommodation. None can question His authority. His grace is also His will and Prayer strengthens us only.
    I do agree with Kamala ji to this extent.

    Lastly as per accepted theory of Karma , as per sikhism, He has the powers modify the effect of Karmas as well. In a way this theory is peculiar to sikhism only. He can eliminate the karmas that have become the cause of trouble for the individual. It is only He who knows as to how this works.My views only.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #7 Taranjeet singh, Aug 5, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
  9. Searching

    Searching
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    218
    Thank you Ishna ji for the directing me to that discussion.

    Maybe it is that everything happens according to his hukam and when we pray it is His hukam that we are following?
    Or the God is merciful and listens to and grants us our wishes sometimes.

    There cannot be a definitive answer to it I think. As Sikhs all we can do is to believe in and put our faith in bani.

    I think the only correct form of praying would be where we ask for things recommended in the Bani and not materialistic things or even long life or happiness etc.
    But when you have a dieing relative it is not possible sometimes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    2,749
    We all pray, that includes you Harryji!!
    Praying is when we liase and converse with creator and creation.

    When you are speaking to that other voice within you- that in my opinion is praying.

    To me praying doesn't mean on my knees or bum with hands together and reciting my needs and wants to the almighty.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Embers

    Embers
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    148
    Hello Searching Ji
    My personal opinion is that it can be helpful to pray for the relief of suffering of others. Albeit a material need it is also a spiritual and compassionate wish. Similar to giving to charity to relieve others of their hardship.

    What does praying do? It changes our mind set and with the change of our mind set there is a change in our actions and the way we interact with the world. Sometimes praying for those who have wronged me has helped me to look them in the face with love and compassion. I feel stronger and it is through prayer with the Lord that I have found that love and compassion.

    Likewise I cannot change nature, ageing and death of the body is natural (this is Hukam - that mother nature will change), but I can face people who are suffering with a little more compassion, courage and understanding when my mind has been turned to Waheguru.

    So prayer for me is more than a action which comes to an end when I think of something different, rather it is an investment which trickles its rewards during my day. The reward is compassion which I can communicate in my actions towards others during the day.

    This is my view, but I hope it offers a perspective on the question of prayer.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. Searching

    Searching
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    218
    Yes it does Ambers ji it offers a beautiful perspective.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. itsmaneet

    itsmaneet
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    155
    This questions is like -

    Why do we breathe if we are to die someday ;)
     
  14. Searching

    Searching
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    218
    Really ?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,189
    Its HUKM to lift your LEG to walk..which LEG is CHOICE...he he No body can walk without lifting his leg - right or left according to choice and free will..BUT thats HUKM at work...IF you walk..lift the leg...:grinningsingh:
     
  16. itsmaneet

    itsmaneet
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    155
    Damn Really .....

    We know we gonna die smday (It's a Hukam) still we breathe. Why don't you stop your breathes & follow the Hukam (wait till death....)

    Similarly, to pray is our duty & Hukam of Waheguru prevails ....
     
  17. Embers

    Embers
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    148
    Why follow a duty?
    I am interested in your opinion :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,120
    Likes Received:
    7,947
    Hukam has not outlined your death, fate may have, but not Hukam.

    Although Hukam can be used to assist in the date, for instance, if I take lots of drugs, and sleep with lots of women, that date gets closer, if I also eat rubbish and drink a lot, closer still, if I make my income by dubious means, and I worry a lot about the consequences, closer still, if I start doing crystal meth and walking naked down highways (for our american readers), even closer.

    However, if I eat sensibly, stay clear of drugs, treat women as sisters, mothers and daughters, make my income honestly, etc etc, that date gets further away, unless, I am put in a situation by Creation in which the value of my life is negated by my actions (as per S Kalekaji), then I am following Hukam, planting good seeds, enjoying the fruits. Combined with a state of Naam, I would suggest to you all that this is the true meaning of the word happiness.
     
  19. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,120
    Likes Received:
    7,947
    S
    This sounds like fate and ritual hand in hand. What happened to understanding, learning, studying, thinking, indeed everything that the Gurus replaced fate, karma and ritual with
     
  20. Embers

    Embers
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    148
    In my view everything is Hukham:

    Page 18.
    http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=18&L=8&id=757

    There is however ego and maya, which give the impression that not all is Hukham. The ego assumes we are taking actions and whilst there is the belief that we are the doer then there is ego. Ego is the idea that there is a doer seperate from His Hukham. None the less ego can lead one to the Lord.
    Here is an example of ego and maya:

     
    • Like Like x 3
  21. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,120
    Likes Received:
    7,947
    Ambersji

    On the one hand, I think you are incorrect, I do not think everything is in Hukam.

    However I do love your description,
    I operate via the 'litmus test', ie if it passes the litmus test, it must be ok, multiple marriages for the Gurus, Sakhis showing the Gurus behaving in an unGuru like manner, all fail the litmus test and need no debate or proving. My current definition of Hukam is not hugely satisfactory, it covers me, but not my head or feet!

    But your line offers some hope to my head and feet, I think there is a few more inches to be gained from contemplating this, thank you
     

Share This Page