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Hypocrisy of Karma

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Randip Singh, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Hi All sat behind my computer I was reading an article from another site (possibly AKJ or something similar), and they were talking about how Sikhs do not believe in the Caste, yet in the same breath they were saying that if you do bad things you will be born an ant or some other lesser life form.

    Now from what I understand, is not someone born into a so called lower caste born into that caste because they did bad deeds in their Karma?

    How can Sikhs believe that Karma applies to being born less than a human but not to the caste system?:confused:

    Is that not hypocrisy? It's like saying, I believe in Karma in this instance but not in this instance?:confused:
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    randip ji

    Why do you think you are confused? I don't think you are confused. These conversations are the result of two things. (1) Ignorance. Ignorance of the subjects being discussed - in the case of discussions you are referring to, ignorance about concepts of caste and karma. This is ignorance bordering on a total lack of literacy. Ignorance which comes from repeating informal theories which are passed from one person to another on a thread. Ignorance which comes from being too lazy to read serious essays on subjects of caste and karma. Sometimes the posters even say they have chosen to read. (2) A herd mentality. Once a culture is set up on an Internet forum social norms for that forum are developed. Over time dissenters are either humiliated or banned. That makes it impossible for any kind of serious or critical discussion to take place. Ergo -- uninformed discussions take place. Or worse, disinformation is propagated endlessly in order to maintain the existing norms of thinking.

    On the topic at hand: Varna or caste evolved in the history of classical India over a period of time, and the idea was refined and established through the discourses of scholars. They interpreted the Vedas and in doing so reinforced a social system based on caste. The fundamental principle of caste in the ancient Vedas was to purify the karma of past deeds by continually reincarnating within a caste until one is pure enough to pass to the next level. Possibly with enough bad karma one theoretically regresses, even to a level lower than human. That is the basic notion. And that is how historically those of a higher caste were empowered to keep those of a lower caste in their place. Gandhi for example told the untouchables they were blessed to learn the karmic lesson of humility. The theory of caste and karma has justified all sorts of savagery for centuries. Guru Nanak's message was to free us from this. Of course to free the lowly would mean that those in high places would lose ground politically -- but mostly in their own minds.So caste continues, and all of the hurt and evil that goes along with it.

    Let me end my diatribe with one thought. There is more than one theory of how karma works. The dharmic faiths do not have a blanket explanation about it. Views in Mahayana Buddhism, for example, are not exactly matched to those of Brahmanism, or even to the understanding of Theravedic Buddhism. So I do hope that at some point in the bright future these forums wake up. It might make the discussions less mind-numbing.
     
    #2 spnadmin, Jan 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2010
  4. vsgrewal48895

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    KARMA/ਕਾਰਜ<?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
    <o:p> </o:p>
    ABSTRACT
    <o:p> </o:p>
    <o:p> </o:p>
    Karma contains the beginning and the end of all philosophical speculation. It demonstrates a casual relationship between the Infinite and the finite. Karma is that Infinite Power which adjusts each effect to its originating cause. The Infinite Absolute Principle’s law is blind but its justice is even-handed. No individual and no group are better than the rest of the humanity.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    ਕਰਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਸਚੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੈ
    Karam Dharam Such Haath Tumaarai.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    You hold deed or action/destiny/Grace and righteousness in Your hands, O True Akal Purkh.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru Dakhani, AGGS, Page, 1034-5
    <o:p> </o:p>
    ਜਬ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਸੀਓ ਤਬ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਵਨ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਿ ਆਇਆ ਅਪਨਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਰਚਨੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ
    Jab kacẖẖ na sī&shy;o ab ki&shy;ā karā kavan karam kar ā&shy;i&shy;ā. Apnā kėl āp kar ėkai ṯẖākur racan racā&shy;i&shy;ā.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    When nothing existed, what deeds were being done? And what karma caused anyone to be born at all? The Creator Itself set Its play in motion, and Itself beholds the created Creation. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 748-14

    For full article; www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual.../24564-karma.html
    Virinder
     
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    #3 vsgrewal48895, Jan 16, 2010
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  5. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Let us start from Japjisahib which states 'hukmi hovan aakar, hukam na kaiha jaey, hukami hovan jee hukam milai vadhaiee and what is this hukam cannot be elborated.But on fourth stanza Guru sahib slowly opens this puzzle and says, 'karmi aavai kapda nadri mokh duar'.Then we have kai kot baitath hi khaey kai kot ghalat ghal jaey.SGGS 276.5. Why Guru sahib tells us, gobind milan ki eh teri baria? In the end Guru sahib says, ' nanak saeyee ubharai jina bhag mathai SGGS 1425.15. Why people are born in slums and die in starvation which guru sahib says 'bhista ka keeda bheesta mai smai'? Why people are born in rich shiekhs family to enjoy all the comforts of life? Havethey done anything better? Why a girl is born to prostitiute? Why someone is born in a criminal family? Why people are born in Gursikh family. Why even after birth in sikh family, people get attached with different cults?
    I invite all of you to come with your knowledge and experience to find the truth.
    Best regards
     
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  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Mohinder ji

    This is a fresh beginning :wah::wah::wah::wah:
     
  7. vsgrewal48895

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    God is compassionate, merciful, forgiving and hundreds (Uncountable) attributes. Then wehy It is not transparent about past and future?

    ਜਬ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਸੀਓ ਤਬ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਵਨ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਿ ਆਇਆ ਅਪਨਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਰਚਨੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ
    Jab kacẖẖ na sī&shy;o ab ki&shy;ā karā kavan karam kar ā&shy;i&shy;ā. Apnā kėl āp kar ėkai ṯẖākur racan racā&shy;i&shy;ā.<?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
    <o:p> </o:p>
    When nothing existed, what deeds were being done? And what karma caused anyone to be born at all? The Creator Itself set Its play in motion, and Itself beholds the created Creation.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 748-14

    ਮਾਇ ਨ ਹੋਤੀ ਬਾਪੁ ਨ ਹੋਤਾ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਤੀ ਕਾਇਆ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਤੇ ਤੁਮ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਤੇ ਕਵਨੁ ਕਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਆਇਆ ਸਾਸਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਤਾ ਬੇਦੁ ਨ ਹੋਤਾ ਕਰਮੁ ਕਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਆਇਆ
    Maaey Na Hotee Baap Na Hota Karam Na Hotee Kaa-eaa, Ham Nahee Hotay Tum Nahee Hotay Kavan Kahaan Tay Aa-eaa, Saasat Na Hota Bayd Na Hota Karam Kahaan Tay Aa-eaa.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    When there was no mother, father, our actions or even the human body and no one existed then where was this human being? How was he born? When there were neither Shaastras nor Vedas, where did destiny come from? -----Bhagat Namdev, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 973

    IMHO it is the Karma of the present life resulting in its cause and effect in the present life. There is no Karma of the past or future as there is only this life as Guru Nanak in Raag Gauri And Guru Arjan in Raag Maru Dakhnay says;
    ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੂਏ ਕਿਉ ਪੂਰਾ ਹੋਇ
    Saba
    marai fir mara na ho&shy;ė. Bin mū&shy;ė ki&shy;o pūrā ho&shy;ė.

    One, who dies in the Word of the Sabd, shall never again have to die. Without such a death, how can one attain perfection? -----Guru Nanak Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 152 & 153
    ਆਗਾਹਾ ਕੂ ਤ੍ਰਾਘਿ ਪਿਛਾ ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਮੁਹਡੜਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਝਿ ਇਵੇਹਾ ਵਾਰ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਜਨਮੜਾ
    Āgāhā kū arāg picẖẖā fėr na muhadā. Nānak sij ivėhā vār bahu na hovī janamā.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    Look ahead; don't look back over your shoulders to the past. O Nanak, be successful this time, as there is no birth again. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Maru-Dakhnay, AGGS, Page, 1096-12

    <o:p>Any how we always can agree to disagree and I have nothing further to add on this subject.</o:p>

    <o:p>Cordially,</o:p>

    <o:p>Virinder</o:p>


     
    #6 vsgrewal48895, Jan 16, 2010
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  8. Tejwant Singh

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    Crime and punishment are the laws on which power is based from the time immemorial. Someone has the power to judge you, punish you for what they claim has been a "crime" committed, albeit by a democratic, autocratic, dictatorship,reigns, etc. etc. or any other form of Govt.

    People in power can control the powerless in many manners. People who claim to have the Spiritual power unto others by claiming their direct line connection to "God" can be as dangerous as the other people of power if not more.

    As they can project the future as good as Ms. Cleo, they become the perfect centers of attraction for the ignorant. This is the reason, we have so many Sants, Derawalas, cults like AKJ in Sikhi because the sheep followers; rather than empowering themselves with the help of SGGS, our only Guru, try to seek a short cut through the words of anti Gurmat charlatans.

    Come to think of it, the ignorant looking for a quick fix deserve this kind of treatment where Karma is the major playing card in the deck these confidence tricksters hold.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  9. japjisahib04

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    If there is only one life then why guru sahib is telling and advising us, 'eh tera avsar eh teri bar' and then gobind milan ki eh teri baria'. What is the meaning of gobind milan ki eh teri baria or 'suraj kiran milai jal ka jal hua ram SGGS 846 or safal safal bhai yatra. what is the meaning of yatra. I request our learned members to come and share.
    Best regards
     
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  10. vsgrewal48895

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    IMHO Guru is telling to make use of this life for spiritual progress and enjoy the bliss rather than wasting it in sensory pleasures you Moorakh. You have a right to make your own conclusions/meanings what ever suits you.

    Regards.
    Virinder
     
  11. Admin Singh

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    Virinder ji,

    I may sound harsh but i am harsh!

    Who gave us the right to draw our own conclusions/meanings to serve our own intentions? Do you think Gurbani is ambiguous and you have the right to interpolate the meanings to whatever meaning you want to extract from Gurbani to suit your own ego? You have based all you arguments and articles interpolating one liners from Gurbani and drawn some of the most outrageous conclusions and if somebody uses the same yardstick to counter your arguments then you come up same old statement like "we can always agree to disagree" or "You have a right to make your own conclusions/meanings what ever suits you." ...Logan Ram Khilona Janae... people have reduced the name of almighty to just a playing tool... I think we need to do some soul searching here... :advocate:

    Gurfateh!


    Admin Note: We have had respectfully instructed you time and again to post all your articles and conclusion in a separate section called: "Spritiual Articles" but time and again you have violated this instruction and spam the various topics with same copy and paste of stuff of yours and actually killed many a discussions. Please consider this as our final warning.
     
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  12. japjisahib04

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    If it is a matter of spiritual progress then how could millions of people who are cursed to live in slums or Africa, and who are starving to death could even think of it. But if it is a matter of enjoying the bliss then there are millions of people who are born with Golden spoon or silver spoon, then why do they need spiritual progress if it is just one life. Let us start serious discussion.
     
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  13. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Sikhism believes in the theory of Karmas.In Jap ji sahib it self there is an indicative line ‘aape beeje aape hi kha.’ The theory has not been explained at one place in the Granth and one shall have to refer to inter- connected lines and bring out reconciliation. Nonetheless, there will always remain some questions un answered e.g. as to what would be the result of some present act in future. We cannot expect knitty gritty of the theory of Karma explained in the Granth. We have to derive the same and for this purpose we shall have to bring in reconciliation ourselves to our satisfaction only. I do not think that this is defined in any other faith as well as GOD cannot be presumed to weigh each action and indicate corresponding result of that action. Nor is it required to be done.
    <?"urn:[​IMG]</B>

    Karmas responsible for Human Birth

    1. Karmi avay Kapra, Nadri Mokh dwar. [Jap ji Sahib].It would imply that our Karmas are responsible for the Human birth. [that is so difficult to obtain as has been stated in bani at many places]


    Re-incarnations on account of Karmas

    2. We go through reincarnations according to our past actions or the actions committed in earlier lives. ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਭਵਾਈਐ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਕਮਾਇ ॥[59-15]


    Karmas cannot be erased

    3. The past actions cannot be erased.. The type of the life we lead and the reason of birth in particular circumstances would be governed by the past actions. Howsoever, strongly we wish that the past actions be erased, it is not possible in normal circumstances. ਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਚੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਲੋਚੀਐ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮੇਟਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥[65-13] and ਕਿਰਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਅਧ ਊਰਧੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥[228-4]According to the karma of past actions, people descend to the depths or rise to the heights, unless they contemplate spiritual wisdom.


    Perform Actions to determine future

    4. On account of the past actions we come here as human beings and perform our actions that shall determine the future as well. Here we can argue that if we have a preordained destiny; how we can think of doing things of our own. To a limited extent the answer is contained in the following Line of bani.ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਆਇਆ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਰਾਈ ॥ [75-13][By the good fortune of good deeds done in the past, you have come, and now you perform actions to determine your future.]

    Purpose of Life

    5.The purpose of Life for Sikhs so far as spirituality is concerned is governed by the following sabad and is reproduced here .Human body is given for this purpose only.i.e Gobind Milan Ki eh teri baria...and every effort should be made to merge with Him.This is self explanatory.

    Sabad-Ang-12

    <o:p><TABLE width="84%"><TBODY><TR><TD>


    Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
    ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ
    This human body has been given to you.



    ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ
    This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.



    ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਕਾਮ
    Nothing else will work.



    ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥
    Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel of the Naam. ||1||



    ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ
    Make every effort to cross over this terrifying world-ocean.




    ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    You are squandering this life uselessly in the love of Maya. ||1||Pause||



    ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ
    I have not practiced meditation, self-discipline, self-restraint or righteous living.



    ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ
    I have not served the Holy; I have not acknowledged the Lord, my King.



    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ
    Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!



    ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥੨॥੪॥
    O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary; please, preserve my honor! ||2||4||





    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>​
    Bhul chuk Mauf</o:p>


    The doctrine of karma, according to Sikh belief, is a part of the Divine law (hukam).

    "The whole universe," says Guru Arjan, Nanak V, "is bound by action, good or bad" (GG, 51). Guru Nanak declares in the Japu that "all forms, beings, greatness and lowliness, pain and pleasure, bounties and wanderings are subject to the indescribable hukamsind there is nothing outside the realm of hukam," (GG,l) and then adds that "karma determines the kaprd, i.e. body or birth we receive and that it is through nadar (God`s grace) that one secures the threshold of moksa" (GG.2). Sikhism, moreover, distinguishes between karma and kirat. The latter term applies to the cumulative effect of actions performed during successive births and is somewhat akin to sanchit karma and prdrabdh karma of Hindu the orcticians.

    But the operation of karma in Sikhism is not irresistible; its adverse effects can be obliterated by a proper understanding of hukam and proper conduct in accordance with that understanding as well as by God`s grace. While the actions of other species are mostly regulated by instinctive response to environmental stimuli, man, endowed with a superior brain, is capable of having a proper understanding of hukam and choosing a course of actions (karma) favourable to progressive spiritual growth deserving His nadar. Human birth, therefore, is a precious gift and a rare chance for the individual soul (jivdtmd). Guru Nanak says: "Listen, listen to my advice, 0 my mind! Only good deeds shall endure, and there may not be a second chance." Certain points in the Sikh view of karma are noticeable.
    : Source: Sikh encyclopedia.

    2.The natural law of Karma

    The law of karma can be described simply as the belief that all actions have consequences for the person who acts. These consequences do not just involve the immediate physical results – for example, when someone uses violence against another person and he/she is injured as a result. There are also moral consequences which affect the soul on its journey towards reunion with God and determine the nature of further rebirths if reunion with God is not achieved.

    If a person returns to the cycle of life, death and rebirth, it is not because God actively punishes that person for doing wrong. The Sikh Gurus taught that a person moves closer to reunion with God or further away from reunion as a result of the natural law of karma. The law of karma is part of God’s created order, not a force or power independent of God.

    The Gurus taught that it is not necessary to die in order to be free from karma and reincarnation (rebirth). Anyone who chooses to live in complete harmony with God’s Will or Hukam, and keeps God in mind at all times, no longer creates either positive or negative karma. Although, the Sikhs will avoid negative karma and try to create positive karma, this is not the main focus. The main focus is in listening to, and obeying, God’s Will or Hukam and remaining open to God’s Grace at all times (Kudrat). A person who constantly keeps God in mind and lives in harmony with God’s Will or Hukam is known as gurmukh. [source:

    http//www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikh_Beliefs
     
    #12 Taranjeet singh, Jan 17, 2010
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  14. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    So how can we not beleive in the caste system yet beleive people will be born into a lower life form?
     
  15. japjisahib04

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    Randip Ji

    Division of mankind by caste, Division of God (as trinity), Division of water (holy Ganga and other rivers), Division of animals (holy cow and holy pigs) etcs are the creation of us human beings which is strongly condemend by the Gurbani. But previous life like, mat pita binta sut bandap Eshat meet or bhai, purab janam kai milai sanjogi antai ko n sahai SGGS 700.3 have been quoted through out SGGS. Can you give me one pankti from SGGS which rejects concept of previous life and cycle of reincarnation.
    Best regards
     
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  16. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Do not misunderstand me, I am not dismissing Karma. It is the closest thing in religion to actual science eg for every action there is an equal and opposite reacrion and matter cannot be destroyed but merely changes form.

    The question is how do we reconcile a humanbeing over a lower caste with with being born as a mineral, plant or animal.

    We do not believe in caste hierarchy yet we believe in a hierarchy in terms of being born into non-human.
     
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  17. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Mohinder Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    This in my opinion will be a great interaction and a wonderful learning opportunity for all. I have noticed that you have quoted several lines from different Shabads in several posts to express your viewpoint regarding Karma.

    Can you please start with one Shabad at a time in full? Please give us your own understanding of the Shabad and also help us understand if it differs from the literal translations available.

    I have the feeling that this would be just the perfect spring board for us to understand Gurbani in depth which is the main objective of all of us. Only by understanding Gurbani we can use the tools in the right manner.

    Thanks and looking forward to it.


    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  18. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Dear Randip ji,

    The theory of Karma or the doctrine of karma is a part of the Divine law (hukam). "The whole universe," says Guru Arjan, Nanak V, "is bound by action, good or bad" (GG, 51). Guru Nanak declares in the japji that "all forms, beings, greatness and lowliness, pain and pleasure, bounties and wanderings are subject to the indescribable hukam and there is nothing outside the realm of hukam," (GG, 1) and then adds that "karma determines the kapra, i.e. body or birth we receive and that it is through nadar (God's grace) that one secures the threshold of moksa" (GG, 2). Sikhism, moreover, distinguishes between karma and kirat. The latter term applies to the cumulative effect of actions performed during successive births and is somewhat akin to 'sanchit karma' and 'prarabdh karma' of Hindu theoreticians.

    TRANSMIGRATION OF THE SOUL doctrine of rebirth based on the theory that an individual soul passes at death into a new body or new form of life. Central to the concept is the principle of universal causality; i.e. a person must receive reward or punishment if not here and now then in a subsequent birth, for his actions in the present one. The soul, it is held, does not cease with the physical body, but takes on a new birth in consequence of the person’s actions comprising thoughts, words and deeds. The cumulative effect of these determines his next existence. Attached to worldly objects, man will continue in the circuit of birth-death-rebirth until he attains spiritual liberation, annulling the effect of his past actions.

    Belief in reincarnation is basic to the eschatology of all religions of Indian origin. Some Western philosophers of yore also believed in the transmigration of soul, but for them it was associated with the concept of the immortality of soul. In Indian tradition, on the other hand, transmigration is an essential concomitant of the doctrine of karma, according to which every action, physical or mental, has its own consequence which must be faced immediately or in future, either in this life or in the hereafter, good actions leading to a favourable reward and bad actions entailing punishment. The individual soul (jvatma), so it is believed, does not perish with the physical body but dons a new corporeal vesture in a new birth which is determined by its karma in the preceding births. Every new birth in its turn necessarily involves new karma or action leading to further consequences. Jivatma is thus tied to a karmik chakra or an endless cycle of birth-action-death-rebirth, until the chain is broken and karmik accumulation is dissipated and the jiva attains mukti or moksa, i.e. liberation or release from transmigration.

    The origin of the idea of transmigration is traced back to the post-Vedic period. The early Aryans simply believed that good men ascended to heaven to join company with the gods while the souls of the wicked sank down into the abyss of hell. The postulate that there is no unmerited happiness and unmerited misery and that the individual soul takes after death a new existence during which it reaps what, good or bad, it had sown earlier was first propounded in the Satpatha Brahmana, one of the several commentaries that preceded the appearance of the Upanisads. Since then in India the highest spiritual goal has been the release of the jivatma from the cycle of birth and death or avagaman (lit. coming and going). Different traditions within the Indian religious systems offer different analyses and correspondingly different solutions. One view is that since transmigration is subject to karma or actions, the cycle can be broken only through the annihilation or karma. Various methods have been suggested to achieve this end such as renunciation, non-action, ritualism and gian (jnana) or philosophical and metaphysical knowledge.

    Transmigration - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

    Kindly read on from the link given above.
    My opinion is as follows:

    The point to stress upon is that sikhism does not believe in any hierarchy as pointed out by you above. There is nothing in Granth sahib that states so. It is only the Karmas that are talked about. At no place it is specified that if the action is 'x' the reaction/reward would be' x1'. There cannot be any mathematical precision in the theory of Karma or transmigration. It is a concept to signify that there can be adverse reactions if one does not become virtuous or does not lead the life as is required and stated in Granth sahib.

    I shall be grateful if you could post the sabad or the line on the basis of which you have raised your doubt.May be I am missing something.
     
  19. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Tejwant Ji

    I am nobody in front of a very wise and senior scholar of your talent. I am simply a trader who writes without any scholarly knowledge. I feel that Hukam is so immutable that no one can get away from it. There is no vakil, daleel or appeal against this Hukam except His grace which can tear out all your lekha. Coming back to start with one shabad in full. This is written by Guru Arjan and is very long
    <?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p>jo jo jUnI AwieE iqh iqh aurJwieE mwxs jnmu sMjoig pwieAw ] qwkI hY Et swD rwKhu dy kir hwQ kir ikrpw mylhu hir rwieAw ]1] Aink jnm BRim iQiq nhI pweI ] krau syvw gur lwgau crn goivMd jI kw mwrgu dyhu jI bqweI ]1] rhwau ] SGGS 686.17
    The last stanza of above sabd also ends with rahao pankti which is center
    of each sabd.

    sPl sPl BeI sPl jwqRw ] Awvx jwx rhy imly swDw ]1] rhwau dUjw ] 687.12 SGGS 687.12

    As per my simple understanding journey is a round trip. I hope this claries the point.
    Best regards





    </o:p>
     
    #18 japjisahib04, Jan 20, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015
  20. Lee

    Lee
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    Randip Ji,

    This is a most easy thing to understand.

    Guru ji tells us that only a human can become Gurmukh, only a human has the freewill to choose to reach for God or not. This is amongst God's greatest gifts and is only avaliable to us humans. An ant cannot strive for God, but any human can.

    Therefore all humans are equal, any system that attempts to say that we are not is a false system.

    Thus we certianly belive that the caste system is no good whilst beliveing in karmic retirbution and re-incarnation into lower life forms. There is no contradiction here.
     
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  21. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Excellent response.
     

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