My dear Prakash kaurhug
Could you give me your translation of this quote? I cannot read the original since I do not know the language of the text, having read only translations and Sikh scholars :grinningkaur:
Hukam (Will) And Sikh Values
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My dear Prakash kaurhug
Could you give me your translation of this quote? I cannot read the original since I do not know the language of the text, having read only translations and Sikh scholars :grinningkaur:
- Aug 28, 2010
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Pl note the complete quote in Gurmukhi as well as Roman Script as under
<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਕੈਸੀ ਜਾਣੀਐ ॥
सतसंगति कैसी जाणीऐ ॥
Saṯsangaṯ kaisī jāṇī▫ai.
How is the Society of the Saints to be known?
</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਥੈ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ॥
जिथै एको नामु वखाणीऐ ॥
Jithai eko nām vakẖāṇī▫ai.
There, the Name of the One Lord is chanted.
</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਦੀਆ ਬੁਝਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
एको नामु हुकमु है नानक सतिगुरि दीआ बुझाइ जीउ ॥५॥
Ėko nām hukam hai Nānak saṯgur ḏī▫ā bujẖā▫e jī▫o. ||5||
The One Name is the Lord's Command; O Nanak, the True Guru has given me this understanding. ||5||
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I hope this may be useful to you.Although I differ on this interpretation too.
You would recollect once I had pointed you for understanding Gurbanee words with some grammatical consideration.I appreciate your grasping
intelligence of the scripts.
Prakash.S.Bagga
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Thank you brother Prakash icecreamkaur
This passage does indeed give Hukam a very deep and profound meaning - associating it directly with the One Naam that is God Himself.
In my opinion it still seems to be saying that Hukam is the revelation of the Will of God. Understanding Hukam means understanding God's Will for oneself, other people and all things in creation. I think that the Hukam of God is single, active, absoute and is the divinely ordained principle governing the entire existence and movements of the Cosmos. By understanding Hukam and more importantly by living in Hukam, in conjuction with focusing all one's attention upon repitition of the true Naam within the heart centre, and prayerfully reading over the Shabads, one destroys ego and finds the complete fulfilment of Hukam - The Divine Will through Union with God. I believe that this can lead to an experience which Catholic mystics refer to as, "the Uncreated Light" where we are absorbed by the Light of God flowing through our being, divinizing us.
The key in everything is the complete surrender and loss of self-will in the Divine Will; abiding by his Will and making it ours; willing what God's wills so that He lives in us and we live in Him.
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Taranjeet singh
SPNer
BHANA, lit. liking, pleasure, will, wish or approval, is one of the key concepts in Sikh thought. In Sikhism, it refers specifically to God`s will and pleasure. Raza , an Arabic term popular in the context of various schools of Sufi thought, also appears frequently in the Sikh texts to express the concept of bhana. According to this concept, the Divine Will is at the base of the entire cosmic existence. It was His bhana, His sweet will which was instrumental in the world`s coming into being: "Whenever He pleases He creates the expanse (of the world of time and space) and whenever He desires He (again) becomes the Formless One (all by Himself)" (GG, 294).
All our actions, our pain and pleasure, our worship, penance and self discipline, metempsychosis and liberation, heaven and hell, are subject to bhana (GG,963). Bhana or raza, the Divine Will, expresses itself through hukam, the Divine Law of nature. Bhana and hukam are closely related and are often used synonymously. In the very first stanza ofJapu, Guru Nanak uses hukam and raza as a compound term. There is, however, a subtle difference between the two concepts.
Hukam is the Divine Law while bhana is the Divine Will. The latter is the source of and sanction behind the former; "hukam is that which you desire" (GG, 17). Hukam is the medium and instrument of the expression and operation of bhana.The basic idea implicit in hukam is its imperative and unimpeachable nature to wliich man must submit, but such submission is again subject to His bhana. "When He desires He makes man to submit to hukam" (GG, 337): "In His Will, the Lord makes man submit to His command" (GG, 1093).
The inexorable hukam having its source in bhana, it follows that the latter is equally, even more, inescapable and inevitable subject only to itself in the form ofnadar (q.v.). It therefore becomes the duty of man to submit to the Divine Will willingly and gracefully. Submission to raza is thus inherent in the concept of bhana.Bhana in the Sikh tradition yields primarily the meaning of Divine Will itself, though taking equal cognizance of the other meaning, viz. the attitude submission on man`s part to the Will Divine. The latter itself arises out of God`s Will or Grace. In this sense, i.e. bhana as attitude of submission of itself, is defined in gurbam as a great gift.
As says Guru Arjan, "The truth is that there is no gift as great as bhana (submission to the Lords` Will)" (GG, 1093); says Guru Amar Das, "On whomsoever Thou bestoweth bhana, to him Thy Will is pleasing" (GG, 1064).The Divine Will in the sense of inexorable ordinance or law of nature is intimately related to the problem of determinism versus free will. If nothing happens or can happen without the Divine Will, there would be no place for ethics and moral responsibility of man for his actions, good or bad, whereas the Sikh precept keeps reminding man to make the choice: to become acceptable at His portal or remain recalcitrant. Making a choice is a volitional act and pursuing it involves freedom of action.
Thus Sikhism positing active participation in life does recognize freedom of action, but "within the contingencies of his finitude." In this context, the Sikh is required correctly to understand what pleases God, what is His pleasure (bhana). Concentrated attention to and meditation upon the Guru`s word helps him in such understanding. Guided by his understanding of bhana, the Sikh is not only free to act but is required to participate, "to battle on in open field with his mind fully in control" (GG, 93l). He is supposed to quell his haumal (Iness), to dedicate his actions to the Lord`s Will and to surrender himself to His raza as regards the outcome of his actions.
Bhana
http://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/theology/bhana
All our actions, our pain and pleasure, our worship, penance and self discipline, metempsychosis and liberation, heaven and hell, are subject to bhana (GG,963). Bhana or raza, the Divine Will, expresses itself through hukam, the Divine Law of nature. Bhana and hukam are closely related and are often used synonymously. In the very first stanza ofJapu, Guru Nanak uses hukam and raza as a compound term. There is, however, a subtle difference between the two concepts.
Hukam is the Divine Law while bhana is the Divine Will. The latter is the source of and sanction behind the former; "hukam is that which you desire" (GG, 17). Hukam is the medium and instrument of the expression and operation of bhana.The basic idea implicit in hukam is its imperative and unimpeachable nature to wliich man must submit, but such submission is again subject to His bhana. "When He desires He makes man to submit to hukam" (GG, 337): "In His Will, the Lord makes man submit to His command" (GG, 1093).
The inexorable hukam having its source in bhana, it follows that the latter is equally, even more, inescapable and inevitable subject only to itself in the form ofnadar (q.v.). It therefore becomes the duty of man to submit to the Divine Will willingly and gracefully. Submission to raza is thus inherent in the concept of bhana.Bhana in the Sikh tradition yields primarily the meaning of Divine Will itself, though taking equal cognizance of the other meaning, viz. the attitude submission on man`s part to the Will Divine. The latter itself arises out of God`s Will or Grace. In this sense, i.e. bhana as attitude of submission of itself, is defined in gurbam as a great gift.
As says Guru Arjan, "The truth is that there is no gift as great as bhana (submission to the Lords` Will)" (GG, 1093); says Guru Amar Das, "On whomsoever Thou bestoweth bhana, to him Thy Will is pleasing" (GG, 1064).The Divine Will in the sense of inexorable ordinance or law of nature is intimately related to the problem of determinism versus free will. If nothing happens or can happen without the Divine Will, there would be no place for ethics and moral responsibility of man for his actions, good or bad, whereas the Sikh precept keeps reminding man to make the choice: to become acceptable at His portal or remain recalcitrant. Making a choice is a volitional act and pursuing it involves freedom of action.
Thus Sikhism positing active participation in life does recognize freedom of action, but "within the contingencies of his finitude." In this context, the Sikh is required correctly to understand what pleases God, what is His pleasure (bhana). Concentrated attention to and meditation upon the Guru`s word helps him in such understanding. Guided by his understanding of bhana, the Sikh is not only free to act but is required to participate, "to battle on in open field with his mind fully in control" (GG, 93l). He is supposed to quell his haumal (Iness), to dedicate his actions to the Lord`s Will and to surrender himself to His raza as regards the outcome of his actions.
Bhana
http://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/theology/bhana
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This is a wonderful explanation Tanjeet for which I am greatly thankful mundahug
I saw Hukam as the revelation of the Divine Will and thanks to your excellent description of the inseparable relationship between bhana and Hukam I now understand what I already understood at a much deeper level.
I saw Hukam as the revelation of the Divine Will and thanks to your excellent description of the inseparable relationship between bhana and Hukam I now understand what I already understood at a much deeper level.
- Aug 28, 2010
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- Aug 28, 2010
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TARANJEET SINGH Ji,
I find your explanation just excellent
You really deserve great appreciation for this.
I like such interpretations very much which are short and just to the point and
quite close to Gurmati understanding.
Prakash.s.Bagga
I find your explanation just excellent
You really deserve great appreciation for this.
I like such interpretations very much which are short and just to the point and
quite close to Gurmati understanding.
Prakash.s.Bagga
My dear brother Astroboy peacesignkaur
In the earliest Greek manuscripts it reads: To the time of trial. The cheesy Cliff Richard song has this line - and so gets it right :grinningsingh: It is translated thus in practically all modern bibles.
Into temptation is the traditional rendering from the KJV and has as such becomes famous, even though its technically inaccurate.
It doesn't make all that much difference though
My dear brother Astro lol
Well you can thank Saint Isaac the Syrian (7th century AD), Saint Mechthild of Magdeburg (1200s), Saint Thomas Aquinas (1200s), Meister Eckhart (1200s), Sister Catherine Treatise (1300s), the Theologia Germanica (1300s) Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman (1845), Pope Saint Pius X (1910) and Pope John Paul II (died 2005) for that since all of these great Catholic thinkers all regarded Hell and Heaven as states of being and not places. There are many others.
There is more to Christianity than the "boob-tube" version as my dear brother Ambarsaria excellently put it.
The Sister Catherine Treatise is a work of Catholic mysticism from the 1300s, composed by a disciple of Meister Eckhart and the view espoused here - 800 years ago - is that heaven and hell are states of being, and this is the official view still in modern Catholicism with some development in understanding and tweaking:
"...We speak of hell, of purgatory, and of heaven...God is in all things and all things are in God...Hell is nothing but a state. Whatever is anyone's state of being [here on earth] remains their being [after death], if they are found in this state [when they die]...The people who adhere to their creatureliness must remain in that mode of being which is called hell. In the same manner the ones who do not let anything else but God reside in their being retain their being as it is. God becomes their being...One says of Judgement Day that God will preside over it. One also says that he will give judgement...But it is not the way people envision it. Every human being judges himself; as he appears there in his being, so will he remain..."
- The Sister Catherine Treatise (written 1300s AD), Catholic mystic [of Eckhart School]
In Catholic Christianity:
"...Incorporeal things [ie spirits] are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us..."
- Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225 – 1274), Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1, Doctor of the Catholic Church
As an EWTN article explains:
"...Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him..."
As quoted earlier in this thread:
"...The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy...[It is] a condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life...The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair..."
- Blessed Pope John Paul II (General Audience, July 28, 1999)
That is OFFICIAL Catholic teaching since the 1200s, first in theologians and thinkers and now in the Magisterium itself, it is even in our Catechism. Heaven and Hell are not places, that is metaphorical language, rather they are states of being. Catholics are bound to believe this.
That is Catholic doctrine but the popular imagination and Evangelical Protestant Christianity teach literal heaven and hell I am saddened to admit.
I asure you it is not I who is so intelligent lol
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- Jul 14, 2007
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Brother Vouthon,
Do the Muslims update themselves with the newer Catholic version of Heaven and Hell because I found a mention of a mention in the Koran, that in heaven they get to enjoy the company of beautiful women....
Why I say this is because, Islam can be considered an offshoot of Christianity. Would you agree?
Do the Muslims update themselves with the newer Catholic version of Heaven and Hell because I found a mention of a mention in the Koran, that in heaven they get to enjoy the company of beautiful women....
Why I say this is because, Islam can be considered an offshoot of Christianity. Would you agree?
My dear brother Astroboy ji peacesign
No, our Muslim brothers do indeed believe that hell is a place and indeed have gone further than even other forms of Christianity and Zoroastrianism, in that Islam regards heaven as a paradise of carnal pleasures; with beautiful houris (virgin women), boys like pearls (waiters - I hope lol), gardens, rivers of wine etc. And Hell is a place of real fire and torment with different layers for hypocrites, blasphemers etc. and were people are scolded, have their skin ripped off and are made to drink burning liquid and many other horrors.
These elaborate descriptions come from the Holy Qur'an itself, and Muslims have always interpreted it literally. You see, the ahadith and Sunnah take it as literal as well, and Islam has no room for development of doctrine.
The origins of Islam are somewhat obscure. There is another thread on this by Seeker. Its a complex and largely unstudied issue. There is some evidence that the roots of Islam emerged from Arian Christianity (those who rejected the belief in Christ's divinity), mixed with native Arabian beliefs and customs and that it then was codified into a coherent system of belief under the Abbasid Caliphate. The Qur'an might have been in origin a Syriac, Arian Christian lectionary, which was then expanded, interpolated, changed, revised etc.
Islam did embrace Jesus as a prophet and as Muhammad's forerunner however the Muslim Jesus was not crucified, did not teach one to love one's enemies, did not speak parables etc. etc. The Jesus of the Qur'an is merely a miracle-worker not the profound Teacher of the Gospels. Muslims do not have any of Jesus' teachings, apart from one's unique to the Qur'an that bear no relation to the historical Jesus' message. So there is actually very little, if anything, of Jesus in Islam in a substantial sense other than accepting Him as a prophet. They also have a high regard for his Mother Mary but draw many episodes of her life in the Qur'an from apochryphal material written hundreds of years after Mary's life which is nothing to do with the historical Mother Mary.
Islam is very much a melange of various religious beliefs - some Christian, some Jewish, some Zoroastrian. Visually speaking it has more in common with Judaism than Christianity, given its heavy emphasis on ritual, purity laws, dietary rules - all of which Christianity lacks and is indeed against. It shares with Zoroastrianism a belief in literal hell and heave, Judgement Day, resurrection from the dead etc. I would say the latter is like Christianity as well except, as you can see, we understand these things very differently.
Morally speaking, Islamic and Christian ethics are quite distinct. I will not go into those details, for fear of upsetting or offending our beloved Muslim brothers, but Jesus' teachings and Muhammad's as we have them in the Qur'an and Hadith are quite different.
Sufism, the mystical dimension of Islam that arose in opposition to the worldliness of the early Islamic caliphates and which takes inspiration from many different religions, has much in common with Christianity and there is evidence that the first Sufis may have been converts from Arabian, monastic Christianity - bringing with them mysticism into the Muslim world which became blended with Neoplatonism, Hindu concepts etc. to form that sublime movement of Sufism which is often characterized by very liberal, highly figurative interpretations of the Qur'an.
However Orthodox Islam proper is quite a different matter.
We both believe in One God, that God is Sovereign, existence of angels and the importance of submitting to Will of God but that is really where the similarities end, and even in these similarities we have very different understandings of these concepts but that would take me a while too explain and is a different topic.
So its a difficult one for me to explain, personally :motherlylove:
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"...Heaven is untouched by time and place. Corporeal things have no place there, and whoever is able to read the scriptures aright is well aware that heaven contains no place. Nor is it in time...Nothing hinders the soul from knowing God as time and place. Time and place are fractions, and God is one...Whatever I know to be God's will - the longer, the better, and the greater the pain, the greater the joy. For to do God's will is heaven, so the longer the will lasts, the longer the heaven, and the greater the pain from God's will, the greater the blessedness..."
- Meister Eckhart (1260-1328), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest
- Meister Eckhart (1260-1328), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest
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- Dec 21, 2010
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Vouthon ji thanks for your well researched and written wisdom. Just one observation.
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Sat Sri Akal.
How could anyone survive the above and I think they then they transfer straight out to heaven lol. There being only two places.
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Sat Sri Akal.
lol
A very funny John cleese sketch brother Ambarsaria ji, thank you very much peacesignkaur
I agree it is difficult to comprehend any logic in these literal, Qur'anic depictions of hell, but you would have to ask a Muslim about it. I know not! lol
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