Hukam And Medical Treatment

[spnadmin]

prakash.s.bagga ji

For those forum members still under the Influence of the Universe, some moderation questions for you

Some of us need to understand your thinking. Would you please go into more detail regarding this point?

Unless we come out of this influebce of the Universe it is not possible to grasp the concept of HUKAMu and SHABADu as its SEAL'

Would you be more specific as to how the Shabad is the seal of the Hukam? What do you mean by "seal?"

Also please post an entire saloka, or point us to an Ashtipaadi, where the shabad is explained to be the seal of His hukam. That would be most helpful.

I have provided a link to the Sukhmani http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.p..._sahib&action=pagebypage&Action=Page&page=262

Thank you for your kind efforts

 

[findingmyway]

Some among us sikhs DIDNT ACCEPT the HUKM...chief one is Baba SRI CHAND who DEFIED his father and revolted to set up his own Panth...Baba Mohree who KICKED Guru Amardass ji in Public...Baba Prithi Chand who worked day and night to kill his younger brother for the assets of Guru Ghar....and many many MORE INFAMOUS SIKHS also exist in our History.

But no-one is outside of Waheguru's hukam so surely these people are also acting within hukam (even though they behaved in a wrong way)? They defied the Guru's hukam but surely cannot be behaving outside of Akal Purakh's hukam?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

But no-one is outside of Waheguru's hukam so surely these people are also acting within hukam (even though they behaved in a wrong way)? They defied the Guru's hukam but surely cannot be behaving outside of Akal Purakh's hukam?

These people didnt "accept" the Hukm...the non-acceptance is still His HUKM.
HUKM is a LAW..just like Gravity...Nature...the Universe..everything runs under the Law or HUKM...Hukmeh andaar SABH KO....bahar HUKM na koi.cheerleader

 

[whatcomesafterfour]

These people didnt "accept" the Hukm...the non-acceptance is still His HUKM.
HUKM is a LAW..just like Gravity...Nature...the Universe..everything runs under the Law or HUKM...Hukmeh andaar SABH KO....bahar HUKM na koi.cheerleader

Is a psycopath killer acting as per Hukum?

 

[Rupinder.Singh]

Now the Question is diverting towards

"What is Hukum"

I would say Hukum is Law of Nautre,

The LAW, that a scientiest can explore, study and understand but can not create.

Scientists can use these laws for the benefit of humanity or destruction of humanity,

The Law, that water flows towards lower side, was not created by scientists.

The Law that Hydrogen is explosive, was not created by scientists.

Scientists can only identify , study and device ways to utilise these laws.

This is Hukum, WE can only understand as much we have explored it, but saying that we explored and understood complete Hukum is mere illusion.

Now, construction and destruction are two sides of one coin, as are the action and reaction. they cant exist without each other.

Similarly learning comes through, reactions to the things happening around us. and that reaction is called reflections of thoughts. This is human nature.

It is famous that "Necessecity is the mother of invention", but who is the mother of "Necessecity"....it is relection of thoughts....our need to invent bicycle was result of reflections on time taken to travel from one point to another.

This is human nature, this is how we have evolved, this is how we learn. this may also be law of nature or HUKAM.

This is the way GOD makes us to learn, by providing us the opportunities to learn, then it may be through a psychopath killer, He encourages us to raise our thought level, it may be through Jahangir, HE encourages us to stand against cruelity, or It may be through a Quesion on this forum that we are all discussing "HUKUM".

So everything is happening according to HIS HUKUM, need is to learn and evolve ourselves by understanding and accepting the HUKUM.

Rest on your thoughts

Keep Flowing...


Rupinder Singh
mundahug

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Is a psycopath killer acting as per Hukum?

..

Whatcomesafterfour...FIVE ?? Only Five.. or whatcomesBEFORE Four....Singh1, Singh2 ???swordfight

Forget about the pasychopath killer or life saver...even the wind cannot move a single leaf without HIS HUKM.
cheerleader

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SPNADMIN,
DIVINE GREETINGS,
HUKAMu is an implied act of the CREATOR of the Universe.There are several quotes in Gurbaani related to HUKAMu but nowhere HUKAMu is defined.
The word HAKUMu is Noun and SINGULAR grammatically therefore it refers to a Single act of the CREATOR and this can be corelted to a Quote from JAPji Sahib as "EKAA KAWAO TIS TE HOE LAKH DARIAO".
About HUKAMu from Gurbaani we also come to know that
...HUKAMu has to be recognised
...HAKUMu has to be known and
...HAKUMu has to be accepted.
Since the Universe itself is Creation of the SHABADU therefore it is this reference for SHABADu being implied as SEAL of the HUKAMu.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Bmandur]

That is WHY Guru Arjun Ji accepted the fact that for Him..HUKM is to sit on the Hot Plate. Read His Gurbani..DOSH na kahoon deon..I DONT BLAME anyone per se..Simply because Jehnagir is also in HIS HUKM..Chandu is also in HIS HUKM..the Jalaad pouring hot burning sand onto Guru Jis head is also in HIS HUKM....Nature at its BURNING HOTTEST SUMMER is also in HIS HUKM...so since everything is HIS HUKM...who can be "blamed"...DOSH NA KAHOON DEON...every piece in the JIGSAW has its UNIQUE PLACE..and Guru Arjun Ji's just happens to be on the HOT PLATE.....while Jehangir's is on his throne at delhi. BOTH are in HIS HUKM. This is why Guru Ji DID NOT ASK Akal Purakh..O FATHER..why do you give ME this poison cup of death to drink ??? Why did you seat me on this burning plate ?? Ours not to question WHY..ours is to do and Die...Each of the Hundreds of thousnads of SIKHS standing in line behind our Sharomani Shaheed Guru Arjun Ji Sahib didnt for a split second DOUBT the HUKM..."why me ??" why not him ??....EACH..even those as young as ZORAWAR SINGH..only FIVE ACCEPTED the HUKM.

Some among us sikhs DIDNT ACCEPT the HUKM...chief one is Baba SRI CHAND who DEFIED his father and revolted to set up his own Panth...Baba Mohree who KICKED Guru Amardass ji in Public...Baba Prithi Chand who worked day and night to kill his younger brother for the assets of Guru Ghar....and many many MORE INFAMOUS SIKHS also exist in our History.

Eh bhee Waheguru daa hee hukam hai jo Asi medical treatment Vasty jandhy haan
Gurfateh

 

[spnadmin]

prakash s baggu ji

Thank you for your perspective on Hukam. I do not believe you have answered my questions. I have re-posted my comment addressed to you.

:happykaur:

prakash.s.bagga ji

For those forum members still under the Influence of the Universe, some moderation questions for you

Some of us need to understand your thinking. Would you please go into more detail regarding this point?



Would you be more specific as to how the Shabad is the seal of the Hukam? What do you mean by "seal?"

Also please post an entire saloka, or point us to an Ashtipaadi, where the shabad is explained to be the seal of His hukam. That would be most helpful.

I have provided a link to the Sukhmani http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.p..._sahib&action=pagebypage&Action=Page&page=262

Thank you for your kind efforts

 

[manbir]

We human being have been given a body form which we so cherish. Have we ever pondered how valuable this gift of Akalpurakh to us is ! If we start calculating the worth of this Human form of our in terms of money, we may run short of numbers to complete the valuation of the Human from that we have been given practically Free.
Why did Waheguru give us this form ? The simple purpose for Akalpurkh to give us this Human form is that He placed Two of His very important wonders in it. Mun and Mind are two special creations that are placed by the Akalpurkh into the Human Body. In fact a full Human Form is the combination of Body Mun and Mind.

Our Guru Ji clearly tells us: ‘Gobind Milan ke eh teeri Baria’ This is our perhaps only chance to meet Gobind.
We need all the Three Wonderful Gifts of Akalpurakh to make us fulfill our desire of Gobind Milan.

Only a Healthy Body can keep a Clean Mun and Mind.
It becomes our foremost duty to keep our Body Healthy and Happy so as to keep a Spiritually vibrant Mun & Mind.
The role of Medical treatment at the time of need can not be overemphasized. Rather best possible medical help should be considered a basic need and duty for all of us.

Our Body is His House. We are always asking Him to come to my House. Shouldn’t we always endeavour to keep it Clean Beautiful and Healthy for That Guest.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SPNADMIN,DIVINE GREETINGS,
At the very start I have mentioned that the HUKAMu is as implied act of THE CREATOR of the UNIVERSEThere is no such saloka or quote which directly tells about the SHABADu as Its SEAL.
Since HUKAMU is required to be understood and this can be done thru the understanding of SHABADu so this is also an implication only.May or May not be acceptable perception.,
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[sunmukh]

A question that frequently comes up in kids gurmat classes which I am unable to satisfactorily answer is:

If we are supposed to accept Waheguru's hukam and retain the body in the state given to us by Him, then why is medical treatment acceptable?

......
Thanks for your feedback,
Jasleen Kaur

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

This is so odd. I hadn't noticed this thread till now, yet on way back from work earlier today, I was thinking about exactly the same thing. I was thinking about how people would have considerably shorter life expectancies, if it were not for modern medicine. I concluded it was better for society as a whole if people died naturally, and if life was not extended artificially. Animals manage to flourish, until humans interefere. Humans generally use the extra time to use more natural resources, quicker and quicker, and eventually their waste of them will lead to great suffering for vast numbers of people. There will have to be readjustment when resources do run out, but if people simply accepted natural life expectancy, and lived in a non-materialistic way, then the planet would be able to support all life forms for so much longer.

Maybe God will send some uncurable disease, or an asteroid will hit the earth, that makes the adjustment.

Best for me to use the few days of my own life that are left, to remember God. I don't know when it will end, but I know I wouldn't go in for any major treatment to try to prolong it. A paracetemol to cure the headache or toothache is ok, but heart surgery, or kidney dialysis, or cancer chemotherapy is a big no-no-no. I would rather accept Kal's call on the door.

Sat Sri Akal

 

[spnadmin]

...A paracetemol to cure the headache or toothache is ok, but heart surgery, or kidney dialysis, or cancer chemotherapy is a big no-no-no. I would rather accept Kal's call on the door.

Sat Sri Akal

sunmukh ji

These are some hypothetical questions. I know you will answer in an outstanding way.

Suupose a majority of the Sikh quom would agree with what you have stated above, and then tried to impose its opinion on others who dd not agree. Would you be comfortable with that scenario?

Or suppose parents were to withhold some forms of treatment from children because they themselves did not accept heart surgery or dialysis through their own intepretations of gurbani. Would you be comfortable with that?

Would you be willing to accept withholding heart surgery or dialysis from any and all professed Sikhs, as a matter of Sikh rehit?

Would you be concerned if cultural opinion went against heart surgery or dialysis, in spite of no argument against medical treatment in Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

The very practical Sikh Rehat Maryada sets forth the minimum number of regulations and rules needed to live one's life as a Sikh. When we speak against medical treatment most of the time this comes from either ingrained familial values or local cultural values, it trumps SRM, and has almost nothing to do with the Shabad. Such beliefs may also result from personal reflection. But when they come as spiritual revelation - no blood transfusions, no anti-biotics, no vaccinations (Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists) - then the right to live one's religion and values conflicts with the obligation of government to protect the rights of people who disagree, people who like children cannot speak for themselves, and the rights of society at large. So the questions boil down to this one:

Should we allow our preference for naturalistic states to be entrenched in culture and law because of personal definitions we have for "hukam."

 

[spnadmin]

prakash.s.bagga ji

SPNADMIN,DIVINE GREETINGS,
At the very start I have mentioned that the HUKAMu is as implied act of THE CREATOR of the UNIVERSEThere is no such saloka or quote which directly tells about the SHABADu as Its SEAL.
Since HUKAMU is required to be understood and this can be done thru the understanding of SHABADu so this is also an implication only.May or May not be acceptable perception.,
Prakash.s.Bagga

Then why did you bring that up in the first place, in two different places. You continue to shift rather than explain.

Since the Universe itself is Creation of the SHABADU therefore it is this reference for SHABADu being implied as SEAL of the HUKAMu.

Unless we come out of this influebce of the Universe it is not possible to grasp the concept of HUKAMu and SHABADu as its SEAL'

The second quote implies that forum members must agree with you in order to prove that they are up to your level in spirituality. And if they do not agree, it means they are still under the influence of the Universe. Please point out to me who is not under the influence of the Universe (they are physically born and they physically die). This thread is about medical treatment. Medical treatment is part of the physical universe. Your comments border on being morally irresponsible in this situation, because they can be taken as advice to avoid medical treatment for spiritual reasons.

 

[findingmyway]

A paracetemol to cure the headache or toothache is ok, but heart surgery, or kidney dialysis, or cancer chemotherapy is a big no-no-no. I would rather accept Kal's call on the door.
Sat Sri Akal

Why the difference between paracetamol and heart surgery? They are both interventions!

What about inherited disorders or disorders that are not fatal but degrade quality of life and/or independence? For example, cataracts cause blindness. An operation to remove the cataract will restore vision and make you a more useful member of society? Is the blindness and resultant reliance on others also promoted in abstaning from medical treatment? What about mental health disorders which require medication, eg schizophrenia? Without medication they will not die but can have a negative impact on society.

How about other interventions such as physiotherapy? Or preventative actions such as vaccination which have a positive impact on society as a whole? Measles for example is very nasty and causes much pain but only rarely kills. Same with flu in the elderly.

Some of the children I have worked with who would have died without medical help, have ended up being more wonderful souls and have done more good for this Earth than their healthy counterparts!

Surely it is possible to live a simple, non-materialistic life without having to die early? Older people often act as an anchor in our modern fast moving life and are often the best influences on the people around them! Possibly it is better for society to retain them for their wisdom and ability to give perspective rather than lose them. Without perspective, materialism is likely to increase.

The environment is indeed a mess. A mess that I'm very passionate about. But surely the best way to tackle that is to raise awareness about habits amongst those you come into contact with so more can be done to preserve the Earth's treasures. And you can only be a campaigner when alive! Having a wasteful life then dying early isn't the answer IMHO.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for joining the debate

 

[seeker3k]

Every thing is in hukam. That’s why it was said
Tera tujh ko somp dia kia lage mera

 

[gurbanicd]

dear all

many thanks for discussion on this topic .I was always looking for answer on this topic

but still i am confused and would be greatly thankful if some spiritual souls who can clarify the hukum, gurbani and medical treatment.

gurbani says sarb rog ka aukhad naam

for hukum gurbani says

eka naam hukum hai nanak satgur diya bhujhai jio

haume ehi hukum hai paeie kirt firae

jraa mraa taap sirt saap sabh har key vas hai
koi laag na sakey bin har ka laya

please reply

bhul chuk maaf

 

[gurbanicd]

eka naam hukum hai nanak satgur diya bhujai jio

 

[Bmandur]

dear all

many thanks for discussion on this topic .I was always looking for answer on this topic

but still i am confused and would be greatly thankful if some spiritual souls who can clarify the hukum, gurbani and medical treatment.

gurbani says sarb rog ka aukhad naam

for hukum gurbani says

eka naam hukum hai nanak satgur diya bhujhai jio

haume ehi hukum hai paeie kirt firae

jraa mraa taap sirt saap sabh har key vas hai
koi laag na sakey bin har ka laya

please reply

bhul chuk maaf

ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Hukmai anḏar sabẖ ko bāhar hukam na ko▫e.

Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.
ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
Nānak hukmai je bujẖai ṯa ha▫umai kahai na ko▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego

ਜਾ ਹੋਆ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਿਰਸਾਣ ਦਾ ਤਾ ਲੁਣਿ ਮਿਣਿਆ ਖੇਤਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Jā ho▫ā hukam kirsāṇ ḏā ṯā luṇ miṇi▫ā kẖeṯār. ||2||
When the landlord gives the order, they cut and measure the crop.

 

[spnadmin]

eka naam hukum hai nanak satgur diya bhujai jio

gurbanicd ji

I appreciate your confusion. But let me give notice that SPN is an Internet forum, and as such cannot appear to allow members to dispense medical advice. Likewise we cannot make it seem that medical care goes against the Hukam of Waheguru. If SPN did that the forum would have a certain amount of moral and legal responsibility for the results.

Therefore, ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
Nānak hukmai je bujẖai ṯa ha▫umai kahai na ko▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego

Unlike many religions, in Sikhism, there are no humans at the top of the pyramid of authority or knowledge who can tell you what you should believe. Members give opinions. Some opinions are closer to the words of Guruji, others are not. Discussions on the Internet can never be substitutes for the work we need to do ourselves.

Many thanks and good luck