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How to Live in God's Will/ਭਾਣਾ

Discussion in 'Spiritual Articles' started by vsgrewal48895, Apr 2, 2009.

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  1. vsgrewal48895

    vsgrewal48895
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    HOW TO LIVE IN GOD’ S WILL/ਭਾਣਾ


    ABSTRACT


    Willingness, honesty, open mind, and humility are indispensable principles to accept God’s Will as Guru willed person (ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ). Faith is necessary but alone it can avail nothing. We can have faith and can still keep God out of our lives. We have to turn our will and lives to the care of God. Thy Will be done.

    ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਲਾਹਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਰਜਾਇ ॥ ਪੂੰਜੀ ਸਾਚੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਨ ਤਮਾਇ ॥

    Kaar Kamaaveh Sach Kee Laahaa Milai Rajaa-ay. Pūnjī sācẖī gur milai nā ṯis ṯil na ṯamā▫e.

    Practice Truth by abiding in God’s Will, and reap the profits. With the Merchandise of Truth, meet the Guru, who does not have a trace of greed. -----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 59-2

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The important key to live under the Will of God is willingness with acceptance. It unlocks the door, which then opens itself. Looking through this door, one shall see a pathway with an inscription. This is the way to dwell under Akal Purkh’s Will. This needs acceptance, which does not mean liking a situation; it is just an acknowledgement of reality in the present and hope that it shall pass says Nanak in Raag Bilawal;

    ਜਿਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਤਰਿਆ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੋ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਹੋਇ ॥

    Jis Man Vasiya Taria Soey, Nanak Jo Bhavai So Hoey.

    He alone is carried across, within whose mind the Akal Purkh abides. O’ Nanak, that alone happens, which is pleasing to It’s Will? -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 854-3

    This pathway needs affirmative action, that we can cut away the self-will blocking the entry of God in our lives. We have to turn our will and lives to the care of God. Thy Will be done as the God wants us what to be and not what we want to be.

    ਜੋ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਰਹੁ ਸੋਈ ਭਲ ਮਾਨਉ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਛੂਟੈ ਸਗਲ ਗੁਮਾਨੁ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੁ ॥

    Jo Tumh Karho Soyee Bhal Manou Man Te Chootai Sagal Gumaan. Kaho Nānak ṯā kī sarṇā▫ī jā kā kī▫ā sagal jahān.

    Whatever You do, I accept as good. I have eradicated all egotistical pride from my mind. Says Nanak, I am under the protection of Akal Purkh; Creator of the entire Universe.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 824

    Affirm to Akal Purkh that I offer myself to you, to build me, relieve me the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy Will. Try to meet God in your self, one to one and voicing the affirmation with out reservation.

    To every worldly and practical minded, it looks hard and even impossible. It just needs a little beginning with the key of willingness. This all sounds mysterious and remote. But this very thing bolsters our lower instincts with egotism and frustrating our spiritual progress. The moment our mental and emotional independence is in question, how differently we behave. We think that no body can meddle with our personal independence. We are certain that our intelligence backed by will power can rightly control over the inner lives and guarantee its success in the world we live in. But think, how well does it work? Everywhere people seem to suffer from anger, resentments, and ego, and fear, unnecessary arguments that, I am right and you are wrong. When we are disturbed about something or someone, it is because we do not understand on a higher level but view it through our personality, which is attached to our need to control things and see ourselves in a positive light. No one can change the other person except him/her self. We cannot find serenity when we are at war with someone or with our selves, as our emotional state does not allow us to think straight and pertinent. Nor do we need to beat up others with blame words. We need to concentrate on our part of the situation, what needs to be changed in our way of thinking and having done so, mental peace will follow and doubt will be dispelled. This will be an unconflicted state where emotional response and rational assessment speak with the same voice. The moral law dictates that we need strength from our faith to fulfill our imperfect duties.

    ਆਪੁ ਮੇਟਿ ਪਏ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਇਹ ਮਤਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਕਹੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਾਨਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਭਰਮੁ ਅਧੇਰਾ ਲਹੀ ॥

    Āp met pa▫e sarṇā▫ī ih maṯ sāḏẖū kahī.Parabh Kee Aagiaa Maan Sukh Paa-eaa Bharam Adayhraa Lahee.

    Erasing my self-conceit, I have entered the Sanctuary of Akal Purkh; these are the Teachings spoken by the Holy Guru. Accepting the Will of God, I attain peace, and the darkness of doubt is dispelled. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Devgandhari, AGGS, Page, 529-16

    Nothing short of right action can bring the desired result. Our whole trouble has been misuse of the self-will power. We have tried to bombard our problems with it instead of attempting to bring it in to agreement with God’s intentions for us. God’s Will, will help us conquering the three qualities of Maya (ignorance, pride and intellect).

    ਸੋ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਝੂਠੇ ਲਾਗੈ ਝੂਠੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਈ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਭਾਣਾ ਹੋਆ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥

    So jẖūṯẖā jo jẖūṯẖe lāgai jẖūṯẖe karam kamā▫ī. Kahai Nānak har kā bẖāṇā ho▫ā kahṇā kacẖẖū na jā▫ī.

    One who is attached to falsehood is false; false are the deeds he does. Says Nanak, everything happens according to the Will of the Akal Purkh; no one has any say in this at all. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Gujri, AGGS, Page, 490-14

    By ourselves, we cannot do anything at all. As it pleases the God, It preserves us. O my Dear Akal Purkh, every thing is in Your power. I have no power to do any thing at all. As it pleases you, forgive us. You Yourself bless us with conscious, body and everything. You Yourself cause us to act. As You issue Your commands, so do we act, according to pre-ordained destiny and by virtuous good deeds as stressed by Guru Nanak in Raag Tilang;

    ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਹ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸਾ ਧਨ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਜੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥

    Karaṇ palāh kare bahuṯere sā ḏẖan mahal na pāvai. Vin Karma (Grace) Kich Paaee-ai Naahee, Jay Bhou Tayra Dhavai.

    She may plead and implore so many times, but still, such a bride shall not obtain the Mansion of the Akal Purkh's Presence. With out virtuous deeds one cannot gain any thing useful in spite of running around. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Tilang, AGGS, Page, 722-9

    You unite some one with one’s Higher Power, and cause them to understand, while others, the self-willed, do their deeds and cry out in pain. I cannot describe the glorious greatness of the Akal Purkh; I am foolish, thoughtless, lowly, and needs your forgiveness. I am ignorant, but I have entered Your Sanctuary.

    This is not a fatalistic or passive approach to life. We may very well be given seemingly insurmountable obstacles in life in order to learn what we can, by overcoming them. But if we face these obstacles with a basic acceptance, we are much more likely to possess the calmness of mind necessary to see with some clarity the most skillful means of overcoming them. What keeps us constantly struggling with life is the attitude of non-acceptance, of not trusting the basic process of life unfolding. We suffer under the false assumption that the goal of life is to always avoid what we find unpleasant and to try to dwell in constant comfort. We don't really understand that life is nothing personal. It is much bigger than that. We need to learn to trust in and surrender to this impersonal process we tend to think of as "my life.”

    Question arises, what is the need to do anything when things work only according to the “Will of God'. If God wants us to do well, we will do well and good; if God wants us to do badly and evil, we will do bad and evil. So once we surrender to God’s will, its God’s responsibility."

    Answer is, Big No.

    We have the responsibility to make choices—right/good or wrong/bad.

    Whereas, certain things are beyond our control-- those are laws of nature, which cannot be broken by any one and are laid down according to Akal Purkh’s Will. These laws are blind but their justice is even handed. So that's what is all about accepting and "surrendering to Will of God and “let go". God has given us the knowledge of right and wrong.

    Making a right choice;

    In making a right choice one has to get rid of the ego (ਹਉਮੈ) and be humble to accept Akal Purkh’s Will. The ultimate goal of life of an individual is to grow, learn, and discover things about him/her self and God.

    ਖੁਦੀ ਮਿਟੀ ਤਬ ਸੁਖ ਭਏ ਮਨ ਤਨ ਭਏ ਅਰੋਗ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੀ ਆਇਆ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰਨੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥

    Khudee Mitee Tab Sukh Bha-ey Man Tan Bha-ey Aroag, Nanak Dristtee Aa-eaa Ustat Karnai Joag.

    Letting go the ego erases selfishness and conceit, peace comes, and the mind and body are healed. O, Nanak, then It comes to be seen - the One who is worthy of praise.-----Guru Arjan, Gauri Bawan Akhri, AGGS, Page, 260-9

    ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਹਉ ਨਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਹਿ ਨ ਮੋਰਾ॥ ਅਉਸਰ ਲਜਾ ਰਾਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਧਨਾ ਜਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ॥

    Mai Naahee Kach Haou Naahee Kich Aah Na Moraa, Aousar Ljaa Raakh Lehu Sadhna Janu Toraa.

    I am nothing, I have nothing, and nothing belongs to me. Now, protect my honor; Sadhana is Your humble servant.-----Bhagat Sadhna, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 858-17& 18

    Enlightened Gurus have the power to interfere in Akal Purkh’s Will but they do not want to interfere in it. Namdev in Raag Sarang alludes to it in Raag Sarang;

    ਮੇਰੀ ਬਾਂਧੀ ਭਗਤੁ ਛਡਾਵੈ ਬਾਂਧੈ ਭਗਤੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ਮੋਹਿ॥ਏਕ ਸਮੈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਗਹਿ ਬਾਂਧੈ ਤਉ ਫੁਨਿ ਮੋ ਪੈ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥

    Meri Bandhi Bhagat Chadave Baandeh Bhagat Na Chooteh Moeh, Ek Samea Mo Kaou Geh Bandeh Taou Foun Mo Pea Jabab Na Hoey.

    God says; my worldly system can be upset by enlightened persons, but once the Saints say some thing, I have no power to upset their wish. Leaving aside all other things, even if they wish to bind me in some sort of bondage, I have no power to undo the effect of their doings. -----Bhagat Namdev, Raag Sarang, AGGS, Page, 1252 & 53

    Making a wrong Choice:

    Those who are self willed usually make a bad choice and knowing fully well come to wrong decisions in life, made by negative thought process and thus block the entry of God in the life of the individual. It is the use of free will, which is the source of all the trouble in the world. Guru Nanak in Raag Sorath, Guru Amardas in Raag Maru, and Kabir in his Slokes refer to this choice;

    ਨਾਨਕ ਅਉਗੁਣ ਜੇਤੜੇ ਤੇਤੇ ਗਲੀ ਜੰਜੀਰ ॥ ਜੇ ਗੁਣ ਹੋਨਿ ਤ ਕਟੀਅਨਿ ਸੇ ਭਾਈ ਸੇ ਵੀਰ ॥

    Nānak a¬oguṇ jėṯ¬ṛė ṯėṯė galī janjīr, Jė guṇ hon ṯa katī¬an sė bẖā¬ī sė vīr.

    O Nanak, as many as are the sins one commits, so many are the chains around his neck. If he possesses virtues, then the chains are cut away; these virtues are his brothers, his true brothers. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 595-8 & 9

    ਲੋਕੁ ਅਵਗਣਾ ਕੀ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਗੰਠੜੀ ਗੁਣ ਨ ਵਿਹਾਝੈ ਕੋਇ॥ ਗੁਣ ਕਾ ਗਾਹਕੁ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਗੁਣ ਪਾਈਅਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥

    Loak AvguNa Ki Baneh Ganthrhi GouN Na Vihajhai Koey, GouN Ka Gahak Nanaka Virla Koyee Hoey, Gurparsadi GouN Paa-ee-anh Jis No Nadar Karey.

    People tie up bundles of demerits; no one deals in virtue. Rare is that person, O Nanak, who purchases virtue. By Guru's Grace, one is blessed with virtue, when the Akal Purkh bestows Its Glance of Grace. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1092-15

    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਜਾਨੈ ਸਭ ਬਾਤ ਜਾਨਤ ਹੀ ਅਉਗਨੁ ਕਰੈ ॥ਕਾਹੇ ਕੀ ਕੁਸਲਾਤ ਹਾਥਿ ਦੀਪੁ ਕੂਏ ਪਰੈ ॥

    Kabir Man Jan Subh Baat Janat Hee Aougan Karai, Kaahay Kee Kuslaat Haath Deep Kooey Parai.

    Kabir, the mortal knows everything, and knowing, he still makes mistakes. What good is a lamp in one's hand, if he falls into the well? -----Sloke Kabir 216, AGGS, Page, 1376-4

    Conclusion:

    The Divine Will created all forms;
    What that Will is no one can say.
    That Will forms all life
    And, that Will exalt all.
    The Will determines what is high what is low,
    The Will grants all joys and suffering,
    The Will blesses some; others migrate from birth to birth.
    All are within the Will none stands apart.
    Says Nanak, by recognizing the Will,
    We silence our ego.

    ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਵਸਿ ਦੂਜੀ ਨਾਹਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਖ ਅਨਦ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਮੰਨਿ ਰਜਾਇ ॥

    Sabh Kachh Tis Dai Vas Doojee Naahi Jaa-ay, Nanak Sukh Anad bha-ay Parabh Kee Man Rajaey.

    Everything is under Akal Purkh’s control and there is none other. Nanak is in peace and bliss by accepting the Will of God. -----Guru Arjan Slokes, AGGS, Page, 1425-11

    Virinder S. Grewal
    Williamston, MI
     
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  3. Archived_Member4

    Archived_Member4
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    This shabad and your top statement do not go together. How can you practice truth when you don't know what truth is? The way we find out about truth is through Guru Sahib. What does one start off with when reading Gurbani. Its only faith alone, that Gurbani is the Truth. And even after reading Gurbani and not understanding from time to time its the faith alone that one progresses on the path. This faith alone does have avail, which brings one to a better understanding.

    One example we saw this is, when Guru Nanak Dev ji would instruct his sons and Bhai Lehna to complete task, but only one would complete all the task. This would be Bhai Lehna ji, Guru Angad Dev ji. Guru Nanak Dev ji two sons would use there intellect to say what there father was saying is right and wrong, but on the other hand we had Bhai Lehna and no matter what the task was he would complete it. What was missing in the two sons and what Bhai Lehna ji had was Faith alone. Bhai Lehna ji trusted full heartedly Guru Nanak Dev ji's word and only had faith alone to go on.

    Its by strong faith alone one becomes closer to understanding and practicing the Truth. When any person starts off all they have is just faith, that Guru Sahib is speaking the Truth. And even later on in most aspects all we have is faith alone. Guru Sahib gave much importants to faith and in Jap ji Sahib, ang sung 3, Guru Sahib says the faithful attain liberation and the unity with God.
     
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  4. vsgrewal48895

    vsgrewal48895
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    Dear Singh Ji,

    Thanks for your input.

    Cordially,

    Virinder
     
  5. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.


    Agreed.

    .

    Your above statement is contradictory. Truth needs no faith. Check the defintions below.

    .

    Once again you are contradicting yourself. Read the defintions of faith and truth so you can have some understanding about the difference between the two.

    Once again you are contradicting yourself. First you rightfully say that we find the truth in SGGS. Then you give some story to prove your point.

    Is the above in the SGGS? If it is please give the page number.

    If not then who is the author of the above story?

    Can you give the bibilography where you got the above from?

    You have yet to give the author and the bibliography on your other post when asked to you about it twice. So please provide for both.

    Once again you are incorrect. Truth stands alone. It needs no faith.

    Where in SGGS does it say that you need faith alone to seek the truth?

    Please quote Gurbani from SGGS and give the page number to prove your above point.

    You are just repeating yourself meaninglessly. The above again makes no sense.


    Now you are confused between the meaning of faith and faithful.

    Please check the difference between the two.

    It is unwise to accuse someone, in this case Virinder Singh ji whom you have been accusing for quite sometimes without having facts in hand or understanding of what is being said by him. If I were you I would read the abstract again and check the difference between faith, truth, belief and faithful.

    Tejwant Singh

    faith [​IMG] (f[​IMG]th) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]NOUN: [/SIZE]

    1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
    2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
    be·lief [​IMG] (b[​IMG]-l[​IMG]f[​IMG]) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]NOUN: [/SIZE]

    1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: [SIZE=+0]My belief in you is as strong as ever.[/SIZE]
    truth [​IMG] (tr[​IMG]th) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]NOUN: [/SIZE]


    pl. [SIZE=-1]truths[/SIZE] (tr[​IMG][​IMG]z, tr[​IMG]ths) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]
    1. Conformity to fact or actuality.
     
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  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥
    salok ma 3 ||
    Shalok, Third Mehl:

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਸੁਖੀ ਹੂੰ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
    sathigur kee saevaa chaakaree sukhee hoon sukh saar ||
    Service to, and
    obedience to the True Guru, is the essence of comfort and peace.

    ਐਥੈ ਮਿਲਨਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਦਰਗਹ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
    aithhai milan vaddiaaeeaa dharageh mokh dhuaar ||
    Doing so, one obtains honor here, and the door of salvation in the Court of the Lord.

    ਸਚੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣੀ ਸਚੁ ਪੈਨਣੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
    sachee kaar kamaavanee sach painan sach naam adhhaar ||
    In this way, perform the tasks of Truth, wear Truth, and take the Support of the True Name.

    ਸਚੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਚਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਚੈ ਨਾਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
    sachee sangath sach milai sachai naae piaar ||
    Associating with Truth, obtain Truth, and love the True Name.

    ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਹਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਦਰਿ ਸਚੈ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥
    sachai sabadh harakh sadhaa dhar sachai sachiaar ||
    Through the True Word of the Shabad, be always happy, and you shall be acclaimed as True in the True Court.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਸੋ ਕਰੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੈ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
    naanak sathigur kee saevaa so karai jis no nadhar karai karathaar ||1||
    O Nanak, he alone serves the True Guru, whom the Creator has blessed with His Glance of Grace. ||1||

    Guru Amar Das, Raag Vadhans, Ang 586

    Guru Amar Das in this shabad is telling us that obedience to Him is the key to comfort and peace. In obedience we obtain happiness. In obedience opens up the door of salvation. In obedience we perform the tasks of Truth. And through this Truth we are recognized in the True Court -- per His blessing and grace.
     
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  7. Archived_Member4

    Archived_Member4
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    Try to read things in context. It helps to understand!
    .

    Once again try to understand in context and read carefully.



    Once again taken out of context and you're not reading



    I was listen to katha at the Gurdwara and the heard the story in the presense of Guru Sahib.

    The author is there in the link, and you just lied. It's a blog where the person name is there. Also the bibliography is not needed since the Singh who wrote it is a trusted person. Also that story tells the truth its just some like to put doubts in peoples minds and take people off the path of Sikhi.



    Please go take a break and come back and read my post again. You are confused on so many level right now.



    Taking things out of context is not going to help your argument, its only going to make you more confused.



    Can someone say taken out of context!

    Please stop taking things out of context


    The facts are there, you're just having a hard time understanding them. The first thing you should do is read in context and then try to understand. Also read my post again with an open mind. Secondly I have not falsely accused anyone its all in your head.
     
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  8. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I am sorry to say I can not make any sense out of your response to my queries. I gave you the dictionary meanings of the words Faith, Truth, the words you have used repeatedly in your post and I asked you questions based on them.

    I have no idea what you are talking about. I was expecting specific answers so I could understand based on what Gurmat values you have based your thought process on. You have failed to produce any tanigble response.

    Let me show you what you have said that makes no sense at all.

    What context? Please be specific about the context and elaborate it.

    What context? Please be specific about the context and elaborate it. I not only read your post carefully, I even gave you the meanings of the 2 words you used repeatedly and how they differ from each other.

    What context? Please be specific about the context and elaborate it.


    What does the Katha have to do with the abstract written by Virinder ji? Please be specific and elaborate it.


    It is not a Sikhi way but rather infantile to accuse people of lying. Please post it in this forum who wrote it because it is not on the blog.

    Please elaborate what you mean by that because it makes no sense. Trusted in what sense? The author you do not know the name of gave some story that you copied and pasted on this forum and when asked about it you became mum despite my two requests and to top that of you accuse people of lying. What kind of Shabad Vichaar is that? You seem very confused about what you have written.

    Once again, infantile comments lead us no where. You are trying to pick a fight for nothing. We are here to discuss about Sikhi and I asked you specific questions. So be specific with your answers.

    It is your duty to clarify your false assertions that truth needs faith. So do not dodge the questions and respond to them.
    Once again you claim that by repeating something that you claim can make it true and you have done nothing but repeat the same thing again and again rather than giving the context which I asked you about. Sikhi is not like that. Other religions believe and practice that.

    What does you above claim mean? It again makes no sense.

    Let me ask you again, please explain why does truth need faith when truth stands on its own as mentioned in the first pauri of japji.

    Aad sach,jugaad Sach, Habei Sach, Nanak hosee be sach.

    Where in the above does Guru Nanak talk that a Sikh needs faith to find the truth?

    Be specific.


    Be specific and give me the context. It is so simple.

    Where are the facts? Show them to me because they are not in your post. Your post is full of false assertions as I have shown them to you.

    I did not only read your post, I also quoted your post and asked you questions based on it but you are not able to respond to any of them. One wonders why!

    Yes you did. You started your post accusing Virinder ji. Here it is again.

    Singh ji,

    This is not the forum to pick fights but for Shabad Vichaar. So I hope this time you base your response on Gurbani and respond in a specific manner.

    Tejwant Singh
     
  9. Archived_Member4

    Archived_Member4
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    I knew this would happen. You got to start reading in context Tejwant.


    The questions were meaningless because you took things out of context.

    It happens when you don't read in context.


    The post was self explantary when not taken out of context.


    okay lets see......



    If you don't know the context then how come you wrote on the post


    If you don't know the context then how come you wrote on the post


    If you don't know the context then how come you wrote on the post

    Again taken out of context. Seriously Tejwant you need to start taking things into prespective correctly



    Its not an accusation Tejwant, its the truth and here I'm going to prove it.

    Here is the blog addy: Prince George Sikh Youth: History of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

    Courtesy, meaning done by

    And here is it copied and pasted where it says the Singhs name:
    Saturday, October 25, 2008

    History of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji



    [​IMG]
    Courtesy of Manvir Singh Khalsa
    manvirsingh.blogspot.com







    Going on false accounts here. No need to respond because the above proves you are wrong.


    If i was trying to pick a fight I would tell you to put on your boxing gloves or in Sikhi way bring your sword:D

    I never made this account. You false accuse me of it. So its on you to prove it.


    I never claimed anything, your false accusing me here. Nice to know what your up too. Also you never asked me to explain in context till now. And the post is self-explanatary


    You are really having a tough time understanding and then you falsely accuse me of make a statement I didn't

    Who said in the above I said Guru Nanak says it?????

    With loving faith, I am attached to my Beloved; I cannot survive without Him, even for an instant. ang 928

    By speaking and listening, tranquility and peace are not found at all. What can anyone learn without faith? ang 1221

    Like a Brahmin without a sacred mark on his forehead, or a king without the power of command, or a warrior without weapons, so is the devotee of God without Dharmic Faith. ||56|| ang 1359

    The state of the faithful cannot be described. One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt. No paper, no pen, no scribe can record the state of the faithful.
    Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12|| ang 3

    Let the remembrance of death be the patched coat you wear, let the purity of virginity be your way in the world, and let faith in the Lord be your walking stick. ang 6

    What is the Lord, the Truth, what does the above shabd say have faith in the Lord

    The servants of the Lord have the greatest good fortune; they have faith in the Lord, and a longing for the Lord. ang 10




    It's self explanatory. Just don't take it out of context.:D



    OOO man now you have lost where you are reading. Mostly like the facts are on your computer screen just go to scroll up a bit. And once you are able to see them then comes the part of understanding them which only you can help yourself here, and then comes acceptance of the facts.



    One wonders why you took my writing out of context?


    yeah and pigs fly:rolleyes: I didn't falsely accuse anyone.


    I never started a fight. You took my writing out of context and I said you did and now your mad for no reason. Like I said before read the post with an open mind. The post becomes self-explanatory when read with an open mind.
     
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  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Singh ji

    Apparently your plea to have your words understood in context has not been convincing. Let's switch channels and go to this statement:

    This shabad and your top statement do not go together. How can you practice truth when you don't know what truth is? The way we find out about truth is through Guru Sahib. What does one start off with when reading Gurbani. Its only faith alone, that Gurbani is the Truth. And even after reading Gurbani and not understanding from time to time its the faith alone that one progresses on the path. This faith alone does have avail, which brings one to a better understanding.

    I wonder if you can see how your statement above is understood by some readers to be a rude indictment of another forum member, and one in which you are questioning the ability of that forum member to practice truth and know truth. You also seem to imply that the forum member does not already know that he can find the truth in Guru Sahib. Is my interpretation of your statement correct? Know of course that however you answer my question will lead another question from me. I will tell you what it is in advance.

    Tell me how Gurbani, the word of the Guru, has made a difference in your life? What have its benefits been for you? I would like to take this back to living in the will of the Guru at some point in the near future.
     
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  11. pk70

    pk70
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    aad Bhain jio
    Surprisingly I have to disagree with you respectfully, Singh ji right here, he has support in Jap Ji Sahib

    Without faith, nothing happens, if the faith is weak, anything read and understood in context of the Lord, doesn’t help in spiritual progression at all. Faith comes first, understanding will follow
    Here is Guru Nanak addresses the power of faith in Him in Japji, Guru ji doesn’t even mention intellect that claims understanding. Faith in Guru should be of the same level

    ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਮੰਨੈ ਸਗਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ਮੰਨੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਨਾ ਖਾਇ ਮੰਨੈ ਜਮ ਕੈ ਸਾਥਿ ਜਾਇ ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ੧੩
    Mannai suraṯ hovai man buḏẖ. Mannai sagal bẖavaṇ kī suḏẖ. Mannai muhi cẖotā nā kẖā▫e. Mannai jam kai sāth na jā▫e. Aisā nām niranjan ho▫e. Je ko man jāṇai man ko▫e. ||13||
    By truly believing in the Lord's Name Divine comprehension enters man's mind and understanding. By truly believing in God's Name the Knowledge of all the spheres is acquired. The worshipper of God suffers not blows on his face. Through inner belief in the Lord's Name man goes not with death's minister. Such is the stainless Name of God. If someone puts faith in the Lord's Name, he shall, then understand it within his mind.
    ਮੰਨੈ = ਮੰਨਣ ਕਰਕੇ, ਜੇ ਮੰਨ ਲਈਏ, ਜੇ ਮਨ ਪਤੀਜ ਜਾਏ, ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਲਗਨ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਏ। ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ = (ਉੱਚੀ) ਸੁਰਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਮਨਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ। ਬੁਧਿ = ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ। ਸੁਧਿ = ਖ਼ਬਰ, ਸੋਝੀ। ਮੁਹਿ = ਮੂੰਹ ਉੱਤੇ। ਚੋਟਾ = ਸੱਟਾਂ। ਜਮ ਕੈ ਸਾਥਿ = ਜਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ।੧੩।

    ਜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਲਗਨ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਏ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਉੱਚੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚ ਸੁੱਤਾ ਮਨ ਜਾਗ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ) ਸਾਰੇ ਭਵਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ (ਕਿ ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਹੈ) ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਸੰਸਾਰ ਦੇ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ) ਸੱਟਾਂ ਮੂੰਹ ਉੱਤੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਖਾਦਾ (ਭਾਵ, ਸੰਸਾਰਕ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਉਸ ਉੱਤੇ ਦਬਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਾ ਸਕਦੇ), ਅਤੇ ਜਮਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਵਾਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ (ਭਾਵ, ਉਹ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਬਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ) ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ, ਜੋ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ ਹੈ, ਇੱਡਾ (ਉੱਚਾ) ਹੈ (ਕਿ ਇਸ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਭੀ ਉੱਚੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਸਮਝ ਵਿਚ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ), ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਲਗਨ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰ ਲਏ।੧੩। ਭਾਵ: ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਚਾਨਣ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਸਾਰੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਹੀ ਦਿੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ। ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਚੋਟਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਵੱਜਦੀਆਂ ਤੇ ਨਾ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮੌਤ ਡਰਾ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ।੧੩
    LOVE is a part of faith, Guru ji continues
    ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ
    Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o. Ḏukẖ parhar sukẖ gẖar lai jā▫e.
    With the Lord's love reposed in thy heart sing and hear His praises. Thus shalt thou shed pain and shalt take happiness to thy home.
    ਮਨਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿੱਚ। ਰਖੀਐ = ਟਿਕਾਈਏ। ਭਾਉ = ਰੱਬ ਦਾ ਪਿਆਰ। ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ = ਦੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਕੇ। ਘਰਿ = ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿੱਚ। ਲੈ ਜਾਇ = ਲੈ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਖੱਟ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

    (ਆਓ, ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ) ਗਾਵੀਏ ਤੇ ਸੁਣੀਏ ਅਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਉਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਟਿਕਾਈਏ। (ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਇਹ ਆਹਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ) ਆਪਣਾ ਦੁੱਖ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਸੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਵਸਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ
    More on faith SGGS 27
    ਜਿਨ ਸਬਦਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਣਿ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਭਗਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਕੂੜਾ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਸੁੰਭ ਕਾ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਦੁਖੁ ਰੋਇ ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਓਹੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਥਿਰੁ ਹੋਇ
    Jin sabaḏ gurū suṇ mani▫ā ṯin man ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā har so▫e. An▫ḏin bẖagṯī raṯi▫ā man ṯan nirmal ho▫e. Kūṛā rang kasumbẖ kā binas jā▫e ḏukẖ ro▫e. Jis anḏar nām pargās hai oh saḏā saḏā thir ho▫e. ||3||
    They, who having heard, Gurbani, act there-on remember that God, in their hearts. By being imbued, night and day in Lord's meditation, their mind and body become pure. False is the colour (of mammon) like safflower's. Man weeps in pain when it vanishes.8 Who has the light of God's Name within his mind he becomes permanent for ever and ever.
     
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  12. kiram

    kiram
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    "Without faith, nothing happens, if the faith is weak, anything read and understood in context of the Lord, doesn’t help in spiritual progression at all. Faith comes first, understanding will follow Here is Guru Nanak addresses the power of faith in Him in japji, Guru ji doesn’t even mention intellect that claims understanding. Faith in Guru should be of the same level

    ਮੰਨੈਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥ ਮੰਨੈ ਸਗਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ॥ ਮੰਨੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਨਾ ਖਾਇ ॥ ਮੰਨੈ ਜਮ ਕੈ ਸਾਥਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੩॥

    Mannai suraṯ hovai man buḏẖ. Mannai sagal bẖavaṇ kī suḏẖ. Mannai muhi cẖotā nā kẖā▫e. Mannai jam kai sāth na jā▫e. Aisā nām niranjan ho▫e. Je ko man jāṇai man ko▫e. ||13||
    By truly believing in the Lord's Name Divine comprehension enters man's mind and understanding. By truly believing in God's Name the Knowledge of all the spheres is acquired. The worshipper of God suffers not blows on his face. Through inner belief in the Lord's Name man goes not with death's minister. Such is the stainless Name of God. If someone puts faith in the Lord's Name, he shall, then understand it within his mind.

    ਮੰਨੈ = ਮੰਨਣਕਰਕੇ, ਜੇਮੰਨਲਈਏ, ਜੇਮਨਪਤੀਜਜਾਏ, ਜੇਪ੍ਰਭੂਦੇਨਾਮਵਿਚਲਗਨਲੱਗਜਾਏ।ਸੁਰਤਿਹੋਵੈ = (ਉੱਚੀ) ਸੁਰਤਹੋਜਾਂਦੀਹੈ।ਮਨਿ = ਮਨਵਿਚ।ਬੁਧਿ = ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ।ਸੁਧਿ = ਖ਼ਬਰ, ਸੋਝੀ।ਮੁਹਿ = ਮੂੰਹਉੱਤੇ।ਚੋਟਾ = ਸੱਟਾਂ।ਜਮਕੈਸਾਥਿ = ਜਮਾਂਦੇਨਾਲ।੧੩।

    ਜੇਮਨੁੱਖਦੇਮਨਵਿਚਪ੍ਰਭੂਦੇਨਾਮਦੀਲਗਨਲੱਗਜਾਏ, ਤਾਂਉਸਦੀਸੁਰਤਿਉੱਚੀਹੋਜਾਂਦੀਹੈ, ਉਸਦੇਮਨਵਿਚਜਾਗ੍ਰਤਆਜਾਂਦੀਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਮਾਇਆਵਿਚਸੁੱਤਾਮਨਜਾਗਪੈਂਦਾਹੈ) ਸਾਰੇਭਵਨਾਂਦੀਉਸਨੂੰਸੋਝੀਹੋਜਾਂਦੀਹੈ (ਕਿਹਰਥਾਂਪ੍ਰਭੂਵਿਆਪਕਹੈ) ਉਹਮਨੁੱਖ (ਸੰਸਾਰਦੇਵਿਕਾਰਾਂਦੀਆਂ) ਸੱਟਾਂਮੂੰਹਉੱਤੇਨਹੀਂਖਾਦਾ (ਭਾਵ, ਸੰਸਾਰਕਵਿਕਾਰਉਸਉੱਤੇਦਬਾਨਹੀਂਪਾਸਕਦੇ), ਅਤੇਜਮਾਂਨਾਲਉਸਨੂੰਵਾਹਨਹੀਂਪੈਂਦਾ (ਭਾਵ, ਉਹਜਨਮਮਰਨਦੇਗੇੜਵਿਚੋਂਬਚਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ)।ਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖਦਾਨਾਮ, ਜੋਮਾਇਆਦੇਪਰਭਾਵਤੋਂਪਰੇਹੈ, ਇੱਡਾ (ਉੱਚਾ) ਹੈ (ਕਿਇਸਵਿਚਜੁੜਨਵਾਲਾਭੀਉੱਚੀਆਤਮਕਅਵਸਥਾਵਾਲਾਹੋਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ, ਪਰਇਹਗੱਲਤਾਂਹੀਸਮਝਵਿਚਆਉਂਦੀਹੈ), ਜੇਕੋਈਮਨੁੱਖਆਪਣੇਮਨਵਿਚਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮਦੀਲਗਨਪੈਦਾਕਰਲਏ।੧੩।❁ਭਾਵ: ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਚਰਨਾਂਦੀਪ੍ਰੀਤਮਨੁੱਖਦੇਮਨਵਿਚਚਾਨਣਕਰਦੇਂਦੀਹੈ, ਸਾਰੇਸੰਸਾਰਵਿਚਉਸਨੂੰਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਹੀਦਿੱਸਦਾਹੈ।ਉਸਨੂੰਵਿਕਾਰਾਂਦੀਆਂਚੋਟਾਂਨਹੀਂਵੱਜਦੀਆਂਤੇਨਾਹੀਉਸਨੂੰਮੌਤਡਰਾਸਕਦੀਹੈ।੧੩।
    LOVE is a part of faith, Guru ji continues
    ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
    Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o. Ḏukẖ parhar sukẖ gẖar lai jā▫e.
    With the Lord's love reposed in thy heart sing and hear His praises. Thus shalt thou shed pain and shalt take happiness to thy home.
    ਮਨਿ = ਮਨਵਿੱਚ।ਰਖੀਐ = ਟਿਕਾਈਏ।ਭਾਉ = ਰੱਬਦਾਪਿਆਰ।ਦੁਖੁਪਰਹਰਿ = ਦੁੱਖਨੂੰਦੂਰਕਰਕੇ।ਘਰਿ= ਹਿਰਦੇਵਿੱਚ।ਲੈਜਾਇ = ਲੈਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ, ਖੱਟਲੈਂਦਾਹੈ।

    (ਆਓ, ਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖਦੇਗੁਣ) ਗਾਵੀਏਤੇਸੁਣੀਏਅਤੇਆਪਣੇਮਨਵਿਚਉਸਦਾਪ੍ਰੇਮਟਿਕਾਈਏ। (ਜੋਮਨੁੱਖਇਹਆਹਰਕਰਦਾਹੈ, ਉਹ) ਆਪਣਾਦੁੱਖਦੂਰਕਰਕੇਸੁੱਖਨੂੰਹਿਰਦੇਵਿਚਵਸਾਲੈਂਦਾਹੈ।
    More on faith Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 27
    ਜਿਨਸਬਦਿਗੁਰੂਸੁਣਿਮੰਨਿਆਤਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਭਗਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਕੂੜਾ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਸੁੰਭ ਕਾ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਦੁਖੁ ਰੋਇ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਓਹੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਥਿਰੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
    Jin sabaḏ gurū suṇ mani▫ā ṯin man ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā har so▫e. An▫ḏin bẖagṯī raṯi▫ā man ṯan nirmal ho▫e. Kūṛā rang kasumbẖ kā binas jā▫e ḏukẖ ro▫e. Jis anḏar nām pargās hai oh saḏā saḏā thir ho▫e. ||3||
    They, who having heard, Gurbani, act there-on remember that God, in their hearts. By being imbued, night and day in Lord's meditation, their mind and body become pure. False is the colour (of mammon) like safflower's. Man weeps in pain when it vanishes.8 Who has the light of God's Name within his mind he becomes permanent for ever and ever. " - PK70 ji

    Beautiful !!

    :wah:
     
    #11 kiram, Apr 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2010
  13. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    pk70 ji

    Yes we will disagree -- mostly I think because virinder ji did not substitute intellect for faith, but rather Virinder stated that living in God's will did not require faith but rather submission. Assuming that I understand virinder ji correctly.

    Here is how I see living in His will.

    ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
    maaroo mehalaa 5 ||
    Maaroo, Fifth Mehl:


    ਮਾਨ ਮੋਹ ਅਰੁ ਲੋਭ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ ਬੀਓ ਚੀਤਿ ਨ ਘਾਲਿਓ ॥
    maan moh ar lobh vikaaraa beeou cheeth n ghaaliou ||
    Pride, emotional attachment, greed and corruption are gone; I have not placed anything else, other than the Lord, within my consciousness.


    ਨਾਮ ਰਤਨੁ ਗੁਣਾ ਹਰਿ ਬਣਜੇ ਲਾਦਿ ਵਖਰੁ ਲੈ ਚਾਲਿਓ ॥੧॥
    naam rathan gunaa har banajae laadh vakhar lai chaaliou ||1||
    I have purchased the jewel of the Naam and the Glorious Praises of the Lord; loading this merchandise, I have set out on my journey. ||1||


    ਸੇਵਕ ਕੀ ਓੜਕਿ ਨਿਬਹੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥
    saevak kee ourrak nibehee preeth ||
    The love which the Lord's servant feels for the Lord lasts forever.


    ਜੀਵਤ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੇਵਿਓ ਅਪਨਾ ਚਲਤੇ ਰਾਖਿਓ ਚੀਤਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    jeevath saahib saeviou apanaa chalathae raakhiou cheeth ||1|| rehaao ||
    In my life, I served my Lord and Master, and as I depart, I keep Him enshrined in my consciousness. ||1||Pause||


    ਜੈਸੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਕੀਨੀ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਮੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਮੋਰਿਓ ॥
    jaisee aagiaa keenee thaakur this thae mukh nehee moriou ||
    I have not turned my face away from my Lord and Master's Command.


    ਸਹਜੁ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਰਖਿਓ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਉਠਿ ਉਆਹੂ ਕਉ ਦਉਰਿਓ ॥੨॥
    sehaj anandh rakhiou grih bheethar outh ouaahoo ko dhouriou ||2||
    He fills my household with celestial peace and bliss; if He asks me to leave, I leave at once. ||2||


    ਆਗਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਭੂਖ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਿ ਸੂਖਾ ਸੋਗ ਹਰਖ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਿਓ ॥
    aagiaa mehi bhookh soee kar sookhaa sog harakh nehee jaaniou ||
    When I am under the Lord's Command, I find even hunger pleasurable; I know no difference between sorrow and joy.
    ਜੋ ਜੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਭਇਓ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕਾ ਸੋ ਮਾਥੈ ਲੇ ਮਾਨਿਓ ॥੩॥
    jo jo hukam bhaeiou saahib kaa so maathhai lae maaniou ||3||
    Whatever the Command of my Lord and Master is, I bow my forehead and accept it. ||3||


    ਭਇਓ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਕ ਕਉ ਸਵਰੇ ਹਲਤ ਪਲਾਤਾ ॥
    bhaeiou kirapaal thaakur saevak ko savarae halath palaathaa ||
    The Lord and Master has become merciful to His servant; He has embellished both this world and the next.
    ਧੰਨੁ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਸਫਲੁ ਓਹੁ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਖਸਮੁ ਪਛਾਤਾ ॥੪॥੫॥
    dhhann saevak safal ouhu aaeiaa jin naanak khasam pashhaathaa ||4||5||
    Blessed is that servant, and fruitful is his birth; O Nanak, he realizes his Lord and Master. ||4||5||

    Forgive any inadequacies of translation. The Guru is saying that when the servant is faithful he realizes the Lord and Master. But the faith of the servant is not the requirement as much as it is the result of submission. I do not turn my face away from the Lord's command. And then he is merciful to me his servant. Then I am blessed, and I realize him. But before I can even set forth on this journey, this is where I must start, ਮਾਨ ਮੋਹ ਅਰੁ ਲੋਭ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ ਬੀਓ ਚੀਤਿ ਨ ਘਾਲਿਓ ॥ maan moh ar lobh vikaaraa beeou cheeth n ghaaliou ||Pride, emotional attachment, greed and corruption are gone; I have not placed anything else, other than the Lord, within my consciousness.

    All consciousness is focused on him -- and everything else follows from that. You know from other things I have posted that I do not believe faith is blind. In fact I believe it is a gift given after we acknowledge our complete dependence on Him. I once was blind, but now I see. Faith follows consciousness.

    Please forgive me. Guruji says, if He asks me to leave, I leave at once. Submission, then consciousness, then faith.
     
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  14. Tejwant Singh

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    Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for not responding but repeating the same thing again and again rather than giving me the context as repeatedly asked. The onus of the context lies on the poster and it seems your english comprehension skills are not sharp enough to grasp that. I hope they are one day.

    Your response to Virinder ji has nothing to do with his excellent abstract about Ik Ong Kaar's Will and then you have the gall to talk about the context, which is a valid one provided you provide the context when asked.Sadly to say you were not able to.

    Nice cop out to say the least. A Sikh should not be copping out but should be coping with the interactions. I thought you knew the anwers of questions asked because they were based on your initial post. Now I know better.

    And btw, that some made up story that you gave the blog about could not be found there as I told you in my other posts.

    Sikhi is all about learning not about bickering and picking fights.Without having the Gurbani tools to breed goodness within, life becomes futile and then every arena where interaction is held becomes the gladiators' paradise. Repeating one thing again and again, as you did in your posts does not make it a mantra, much less the spiritual kind.

    Enjoy your journey.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  15. spnadmin

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    Something to think about on the subject of faith in God -- then I will be quiet because Gurbani is all that we need to sort this out. There have been many spiritual people throughout history who from time time collapsed under the feeling that they had lost their faith in the Creator and the the Creator had abandoned them. Mother Teresa is one of those people -- she died in a state of spiritual despair and sought the guidance of spiritual advisers for many years because of this. But she never waivered from her steadfast seva to humanity -- perhaps not realizing herself that she was serving god by serving the lost and dying. This state is called the "dark night of the soul." It has never happened to me and I cannot imagine what that is like -- but the people who report it are very advanced yet it happens to them. It could be that Mother Teresa's pain came from a belief that she should be in a different state of faith and so she was experiencing the pain of duality. So in re-thinking Guruji's message I came up with this

    ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
    maaroo mehalaa 5 ||
    Maaroo, Fifth Mehl:


    ਸੂਰਤਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਨ ਭੂਲੁ ਗਵਾਰਾ ॥
    soorath dhaekh n bhool gavaaraa ||
    Do not be fooled by appearances, you fool.


    ਮਿਥਨ ਮੋਹਾਰਾ ਝੂਠੁ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
    mithhan mohaaraa jhooth pasaaraa ||
    This is a false attachment to the expanse of an illusion.


    ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਕੋਈ ਰਹਣੁ ਨ ਪਾਏ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ ॥੧॥
    jag mehi koee rehan n paaeae nihachal eaek naaraaeinaa ||1||
    No one can remain in this world; only the One Lord is permanent and unchanging. ||1||


    ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਪਉ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥
    gur poorae kee po saranaaee ||
    Seek the Sanctuary of the Perfect Guru.


    ਮੋਹੁ ਸੋਗੁ ਸਭੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥
    mohu sog sabh bharam mittaaee ||
    He shall eradicate all emotional attachment, sorrow and doubt.


    ਏਕੋ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦ ਗਾਇਣਾ ॥੨॥
    eaeko manthra dhrirraaeae aoukhadhh sach naam ridh gaaeinaa ||2||
    He shall administer the medicine, the Mantra of the One Name. Sing the True Name within your heart. ||2||

    This shabad ALSO says to me that it is through complete submission and unwaivering devotion that we receive the medicine. Even our religious beliefs -- even the thought that we have blind faith and that we are true -- can be an illusion. In submission we receive the release from attachment even from our own beliefs. By giving up the illusion of our beliefs (because "belief" and "faith" can also be false and be false spirituality) do we receive the medicine and obtain the mantra of the Naam.
     
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  16. pk70

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    aad bhain jio
    Again respectfullyI disagree with what you are saying in support of vsgrewal Ji.
    Why I am saying so.
    Here it is
    You are quoting Gurbani to support submission to God, if there is no faith in Him, how submission will occur?, that is why Guru Nanak in JapJi stresses on faith.
    When faith is not real, people fall but when it is real and is above intellectual programming of worldly definitions, it lifts the soul to its goal. As per Guru Nanak, one doesnt need to be highly educated to expewrience Him, one needs a faith.
     
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  17. spnadmin

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    pk70 ji

    That is exactly how we disagree. What do you mean by the word "faith?" Faith is belief and as such something we cling to. I don't cling to a belief system. Instead I accept my ignorance, helplessness, stubborn nature, and inability to think my way into or out of any situation. So in the face of my complete inadequacy I "accept" that a greater creative power will support me in my helplessness.

    The elephant called 10,000 times and Akaal heard him and rescued him from the crocodile. The elephant just gave up. It was not a matter of faith but a matter of "getting it." I am like the elephant -- I can do nothing on my own. And only my stubborn beliefs keep me from submitting 10,000 times a day.

    Faith to me is a "belief" and mind clings to it as a thought. Faith does not save us. I promised I would be quiet.
     
  18. Archived_Member4

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    Your not listening and reading with an open mind. How can I make someone read with and open mind that is on you.

    Now insulting my english because you can't understand and read with an open mind.

    Where's the Grammar police, watch out they have red markers:D


    My initial response has everything to do with Virinder's abstract, thats what got me writing. All you have to do is read G Singh (PK70) post for further understanding of mine.

    OOO man seriously open your mind up read my post then read G Singh post.

    Any person that click on the link I provided in my last post to you can see its there. You just don't know how to use links. Here's the link again

    Prince George Sikh Youth: History of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

    I told you, you got mad because you took my writing out of context and I called you on it. Not my fault, just saying it as it happens. For next time don't take my writing out of context. I repeated things because it was a virtues thing to do here. It would stress the point you took my writing out of context and it would get you to go back and read my post over again, but you decided not to and instead got mad.


    G Singh understood my post in a flash and then decide to elaborate more on it with provide Gurbani. Thanks G Singh for keeping my writing in context and then providing Jap ji Sahib in support.
     
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  19. sadhu

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    Singh ji

    Your posts are self explanatory, i read it and i liked the way you explained the importance of faith. But if someone just wants to pick up a fight, then he can start it on anything whatsoever. Then such a person will not go into the context of the post, just because he does not want to.
    But if one reads your post with an open mind, and not with a prejudiced mind, one can easily understand your point.
    Some claim to be learners, but on the contrary they want to prove that they know better than others on this forum. So they start arguing out of context.
    From what pk70 ji has mentioned, it is absolutely clear that your posts were meaningful and self explanatory.

    Moreover when virinder ji himself, does not have a problem with your explanation, and he is thanking you for your input. Than how can anyone else have a problem with what you have posted!
     
  20. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Forum guidelines require me to note: Another good thread is going around in circles as the dispute over contexts is repeated in one way or another over and over again. Please move onto another angle in the discussion. Otherwise the thread will be closed as it is going downhill at this point.
     
  21. pk70

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    Again I beg to differ, Guru is not saying that faith is not a requirement. How submission is possible without faith? Faith is the initial step for submission that is why in JapJi Guru Nanak keeps stressing on it and explaining what it can bring. If one doesn't submit, one has no faith, period. What people have most of the time, is faulty faith. Having that, submission is not sincere either. Elephant doesn't submit to His Ordinance, its his body that gives in, his safty occurs due to Divine Ordinance.:)
     
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