How Do You Know God Exists? Does SGGS Prove God Exists?

[Tejwant Singh]

It is also looking to me as if you may be talking yourself into the reductio ad absurdem called "self-annihilation." I can't tell at this point because we are lacking your definition of "rational" which is not the same thing as "logical."

How does one say "self-annihilation" in Latin?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

How does one say "self-annihilation" in Latin?

There may not be a direct translation. I can't translate it now off the top of my head because like Punjabi in Latin, first you translate the noun "annihilation" and then you use the Latin equivalent of "ape" which is "ipse." Put them together then trasnslate and it sounds horrible in English. Will give a go at it. lol

p/s There is a direct translation "sui annihilatio" which means "one's own annihilation" which means more like "suicide." That would not be what we are looking for. lol

 

[Tejwant Singh]

It is like saying,"I tried your cake and it is tasty, I am not interested in the recipe but please explain why it is tasty to me".

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

There may not be a direct translation. I can't translate it now off the top of my head because like Punjabi in Latin, first you translate the noun "annihilation" and then you use the Latin equivalent of "ape" which is "ipse." Put them together then trasnslate and it sounds horrible in English. Will give a go at it. lol

Please make it sound "tasty" atleast.

 

[anon]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

It is like saying,"I tried your cake and it is tasty, I am not interested in the recipe but please explain why it is tasty to me".

I don't feel like I am doing that, I am asking for the recipe, I am asking for the ration construction of thought which leads to the statement of "Ik Onkar".

In other words... I don't have time to bake the cake now, but if you could tell me a few of the ingredients that made it nice i'd be interested to know.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Please make it sound "tasty" atleast.

In one short sentence, the answer to "why I am a Sikh." Sri Guru Granth Sahib is so very infinitely tasty.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

p/s There is a direct translation "sui annihilatio" which means "one's own annihilation" which means more like "suicide." That would not be what we are looking for.

I think that is exactly we are looking for as it turned out to be. In other words, as the Gladiator would say to his Gladius; a minor mea culpa.:redturban:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

In one short sentence, the answer to "why I am a Sikh." Sri Guru Granth Sahib is so very infinitely tasty.

Well said as usual Mai ji. And I totally agree with its yumminess.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

anon ji

You are doing it again. If Guru Nanak makes an illogical argument about god, then that is all that can be concluded. One cannot jump from that conclusion to say that he is irrational. If Guru Nanak is proved to be not-rational, one cannot jump from that conclusion to say he is wrong about "god." Or for that matter that "god does not exist."

Irrational people often make defensible statements. People who are wrong about some things are not necessariiy irrational.

It is also a good idea to take a serious look at what Mai Harinder Kaur ji has posted, because all of the arguments I have encountered against the existence of "god" here at SPN come out of college logic classes. They, the arguments, have their origins in Aristotelian logic and have passed through many incarnations over centuries. Essentially they represent western ways of thinking that are premised on a western way of parsing reality. Arguments fashioned in this way may have no relevance at all to views of "god" that Guru Nanak, or many Hindus, or many Buddhists are talking about.

Jains have an even more fascinating argument that negates "God" but does not negate the divine.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

I don't feel like I am doing that, I am asking for the recipe, I am asking for the ration construction of thought which leads to the statement of "Ik Onkar".

In other words... I don't have time to bake the cake now, but if you could tell me a few of the ingredients that made it nice i'd be interested to know.

Please read again my very first post and then we shall continue. You have said too many things which meant out to be naught, without exactly knowing what your personal understanding of the subject is, no matter how absurdum it may be.

 

[anon]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

anon ji

You are doing it again. If Guru Nanak makes an illogical argument about god, then that is all that can be concluded. One cannot jump from that conclusion to argue that he is irrational. If Guru Nanak is proved to be not-rational, one cannot jump from that conclusion to argue he is wrong about "god" or for that matter that "god does not exist."

Okay I understand now, I see that I was making too many strong statements with the incorrect reasoning.

Reducio Ad Absurdum was used incorrectly here. I also see you have to some extent answered my original question. You say that the Sikh/Hindu ideas of god are different to the western depiction, by that im assuming you mean that Sikhs believe god to be less " Tangable" or less of an entitiy, perhaps more comparable to a "force"? or an energy?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

O

You say that the Sikh/Hindu ideas of god are different to the western depiction, by that im assuming you mean that Sikhs believe god to be less " Tangable" or less of an entitiy, perhaps more comparable to a "force"? or an energy?

No, I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that eastern concepts of "god" are extremely diverse and very subtle. There is no single definition of "god" within Hinduism. Similarly you can see just from this thread that Sikhs differ as to the nature of god and some do not even sanction the use of the word. I would recommend that you take a look at Jain arguments about "god" if only to get a sense of how subtle the eastern perspective can be. Discover how much debate actually occurs, within a single path in the east.

Another thought. All traditions, east or west, have ways of explaining "reality" that can be very different. What is "real" may govern the ways in which "god" is understood.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

No, I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that eastern concepts of "god" are extremely diverse and very subtle. There is no single definition of "god" within Hinduism. Similarly you can see just from this thread that Sikhs differ as to the nature of god and some do not even sanction the use of the word. I would recommend that you take a look at Jain arguments about "god" if only to get a sense of how subtle the eastern perspective can be. Discover how much debate actually occurs, within a single path in the east.

Another thought. All traditions, east or west, have ways of explaining "reality" that can be very different. What is "real" may govern the ways in which "god" is understood.

My point exactly. When discussing "God," we may all be discussing different concepts. Until we settle on something which we can use as a definition, we shall get nowhere. This difficulty is compounded by the fact that we come from cultures that have very different concepts of what "God" or "a god" is.

 

[Luckysingh]

Anon ji
You must be one of the unfortunate one's who hasn't had a visit or encounter with God.

Do I have proof he exists ??
Well I can't be totally sure, because all I really know is that I exist because I have a name that was given to me !!
BUT, God does visit me regularly and I have an ongoing ancounter with him.
The only problem is that he is so humble that he never has once said ''I am GOD'' or ''They call me GOD!''

Foolishly, I have just assumed he is GOD just like I have assumed to call you ANON !!!

 

[spnadmin]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

My point exactly. When discussing "God," we may all be discussing different concepts. Until we settle on something which we can use as a definition, we shall get nowhere. This difficulty is compounded by the fact that we come from cultures that have very different concepts of what "God" or "a god" is.

A fundamental problem however remains. If some or none of these views of god can be demonstrated to "exist" according to scientific methods of proof, we still shall get nowhere.

Who wants to tackle the use of the words "exist" or "existence" on a scientific basis? My question is serious. The word "exist" itself could be out-of-place when discussing Ik Oankaar. I would say scientific bias, but let's be cool and use scientific basis instead.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

anon ji I believe spnadmin ji also addressed response to your post. I have a comment in part,

Okay I understand now, I see that I was making too many strong statements with the incorrect reasoning.

........ Sikhs believe god to be less " Tangable" or less of an entitiy, perhaps more comparable to a "force"? or an energy?

Brother let us review mool mantar as most if not all Sikhs can relate to it,

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.


ArQ:- Akwl purK ie`k hY, ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY, (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[

God/creator is one and is known as the eternal being, is the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own (God/creator) blessing.

What the above speaks to is some of the guiding observations by Guru ji's from human perspective. This is further elaborated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to include infinite, formless, not describable in completeness and so on.
​

When you flag it as "comparable to a "force"? or an energy" for Sikhs you are going directly against the teachings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Do some Sikhs talk it like so? Of course they do. Are they correct in doing so? I am not judge as over a life time one evolves if one is ever learning as a Sikh. We come through many ideas and points of learning. If the mind stays open and learns we pick up much new, build on much we have known, and discard some that we have known. That is part of being human and Sikhs are human too.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Luckysingh]

Ambarsariaji, I love the way how sometimes you make it so simple !!:redturban::winkingmunda:

 

[Ishna]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

I'm gonna go join Akasha ji in the naughty corner cos this statement has just knocked me out of the race:

When you flag it as "comparable to a "force"? or an energy" for Sikhs you are going directly against the teachings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Why do we bother with the term 'Sikh' when everyone has such vastly different opinions? How can we all be looking at the same Guru Granth Sahib Ji and all getting a different message or understanding?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Ishna ji

Orthodoxy will be the end of Sikhi. It will only create more fanatics.

 

[Harry Haller]

If god doesn't exist then you must concede that praying is pointless. Why try and communicate with a being that doesn't exist?

hah! if God does exist then it is still pointless praying, not praying is not just an agnostic pursuit! I do not find anything here that is not Sikhi.....

Also a lot of money, why go and Mathadek at the Gurdwara and spend time there when all the money being invested into a Gurdwara can be invested into cancer research or poor countries, im not talking about the few pennies you put in when you mathadek i'm talking about all that money that goes into the heating, construction, etc etc...

Again a very Sikh outlook, I agree. The Gurdwaras today are nothing but social clubs, mostly mired in vedicism and or Abrahamic practice, in fact, the ones I like the best are Gurdwaras specifically for certain castes, brilliant!

The fact that the Sikh establishment, customs and activities such as prayer exist mean that as a Sikh you must believe there is a God, if there was any doubt, if you thought you were taking a gamble on believing in God you wouldn't do any of it, its just too much time and money.

ah now here your actually wrong, you see if people really believed that God existed, they would not pray, they would not have customs, activities or rituals, they would just do as God wished them to, so, by default, those that pray, that follow rituals, customs, they are actually the agnostics, because they are not convinced. Those that have a staunch belief in God will be in connection 24/7. They will not adopt a special time or a position to communicate.

so what proof does Sikhism give that there is a god?

Firstly, you talk of God as an Abrahamic father figure, Sikhism does not see God as such, God is viewed as the ultimate Creator, and in my view, is the Creator energy, you can either be in tune with this energy, or not, that is your choice, but if you want proof that God is sitting on his cloud throwing his thunderbolts, and dishing out rice pudding, your onto a loser. What Sikhism does talk about is a way of life, a take on life if you will, Sikhism gives you the ultimate truths, whether you accept them and make them work for you is a different matter. Can one prove ultimate truths? why of course, take gravity, no one is going to argue with gravity.... or birth, or death, or indeed taxes lol

Iv read some translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji always talking about how we should love God and how we should abandon maya and material things... but where does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji actually PROVE that god exists?

Ok, translations are a waste of time, so don't put too much weight on that, they try and copy the style of the Abrahamic, which seeing as Sikhism could not be more different, is a shame, please take a look at the lifestyle of the tenth master. Did he abandon maya, did he abandon material things? no, he did not, because Sikhism is not a 'live in poverty and be happy' type of religion, it is one where you concentrate on being in consonance with the Creative energy, if you want material things, if you want maya, fine, but just do not be sucked into it thinking this is all there is, because such things can be lost in the blink of an eye. The time we have here on this earth we rent, and the life we lead, with the right attitude can be very pleasurable, we can sleep in comfortable beds, we can all drive range rovers, we can eat well, but we can also give something back to Creation, and if our bed is uncomortable, or we have to drive a lan cruiser instead, well its not the end of the world, we should not let such minor facets affect our attitude to life, or affect our optimistic view, we should do our best, the best that we can do, but ultimately, whatever happens, we should accept with grace, that does not mean give up, it means try harder, it means realise your goals, no matter what they are. Do you know what the difference is between a Sikh driving a Bentley and a non Sikh driving one is? The Sikh enjoys the Bentley, and is grateful to Creator and Creation for the chance to drive one, but it does not change him, he is not full of pride and ego, he can be the humblest and nicest man on the planet, the Bentley is just a car, a vehicle, however, most drive such cars to impress on others how wealthy they are, they get pleasure from the envious looks, they get pleasure from being envied, now what we are talking here is nothing to do with religion or even God, it is to do with the correct attitude to live a fruitfull and pleasant life, one that is balanced, one that cares.

As for proof, I cannot offer you any proof, but as I believe that when I am dead, I am dust, proof really does not affect me, I am not going to meet God, nor am I going to sit by his side sharing his cloud, I am going to be wormfood, but, the one thing that does interest me, how can I conduct myself on this earth while I am here so that my life is true, so that I am true, and that is by being a Sikh.

Sikhs claim to be rational thinkers, to be a Sikh I guess means to be a "Learner"... if this claim is true then everything that a Sikh does must be built on the foundation that God exists, so lets assume you are rational, you guys must hold the proof, the undeniable proof that God exists...

I could not care less whether God exists or not. Such information will not change my life as I believe God has set the rules and started the game, I am more interested in the game and following the rules. Consonance with Creation is the closest I am ever going to get to the concept of meeting 'God'.