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How did Sikh Gurus die?

Discussion in 'Sikh Youth' started by Neutral Singh, Feb 3, 2005.

  1. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    I read this question elsewhere on internet... I was intriguied at the reply of the person...

    here goes the question and the reply by the person in the second post.

    What do you think should be the right explanation to such questions ?

     
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  3. Neutral Singh

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    This is the reply by the second person...

     
  4. S|kH

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    Yes, and Jesus Christ resurrected and he's with us also. :unsure:

    Matter of fact, Prophet Muhammond never died, Elvis is still alive.

    And Tupac Shakur is still actively making new music.

    2pac just disappeared from the eyes of the common people, but he's still here ;)

    Childish dreams, got to love them.

    Edit : The right explanation should be that the Gurus died. They were humans. Guru Gobind died at the hands of another human, he was NOT invincible. He could be beat, and he WAS beaten.

    If something like normal rational reason topples someones world over, than they were pretty insane to begin with.
     
  5. GushK

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    Just a little side point but does this mean you believe anything which can't be explained by science or "modern" human understanding, cannot possibly be true?
     
  6. S|kH

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    Negative. .
     
  7. ravisingh

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    I have to agree with S[kh on this one.

    One of the beauties of Sikhi is that it does not rely on miracles. I think this is a very good and consistent thing because Sikhi strongly stresses the importance of reason within religious belief and does not try to overly mystify normal events like death.

    I think the same can be said about whether or not Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak dev ji studied the holy texts of hinduism and the shastras,etc. This issue has been raised by some Hindu scholars as a criticism of Sikhi as they state that having never read them (as some prominent sikh historians claim) how could the Guru sahib critique them. Dhur ki Bani has some revealing critiques/insights on the religious writings and beliefs of many different faiths (particularly the siddhs, sadhus, hinduism and islam --Siddh Gost is one of my favourite bani). Clearly, we can never know whether or not he did study them or not but in absence of any evidence doesen't it stand to reason that we should assume that he did (okholm's razor)?

    I think the same can be said of the joti jot of the gurus.
     
  8. BabbarSher

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    Agree with SIKH to a certain extent.

    It is true that sikhi does not believe in miracles of a physical nature and teaches us to abide by the laws of naure in place.

    However what I do object to is the following phrase by SIKH:

    "He could be beat, and he WAS beaten. "

    I dont think a Guru can be beaten, unless the Guru wants to. And why would the Guru want it? Because the Guru would understand that nature has to take its course. His soul has to leave the temporary body, so as far as the physical eyes are concerned, the Guru is not there.

    Now if being hit by a blow and getting one's head severed is the meaning of the term 'BEATEN', then maybe all of the great Martyrs in history of sikhs were beaten, including Shedaan de Sirtaaj Guru Arjan Dev Ji.

    But would you agree that this is the case. Wouldnt we say that the Mughals in fact got beaten in the end, as it is no diifficult to even find people of the Mughal race (of course no fault of the present generation and my sympathies with them)

    So I dont think the word beaten conveys the right context or meaning of the thoughts of SIKH to the casual reader.
     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    It is a fallacy to promote the Guru Sahibaans as something they are not.


    It is true the GURU Sahibaans are One JYOT..BUT they had TEN HUMAN BODIES..which ate, bathed, slept, were clothed, rode on horses, walked etc just like we all do..

    Now we all know for a fact that the GURUS were BORN, had fathers and mothers..and IF Kabir can ask the BRAHMIN: OH brahmin..how are you DIFFERENT from me ?? You call me Shudar and yourself Brahmin...BUT then WHY didnt you come into this world any OTHER WAY ?? ( meaning you came from your mother just like i did from mine...in this World there is ONLY ONE WAY to COME...and EVERYBODY...Raam, Krishan, Bhagats, Guru ji..all came this way )...and there is also ONLY ONE WAY to EXIT this WORLD.... the same way we all go. GURU JI's HUMAN BODY came and went the same way as all of us.

    The Only difference is in the JYOT....Guru Nanak ji didnt pass on His JYOT ( Spiritual Khazannah) to his flesh and blood....Puttreena kaul na plaiyo as we all do...BUT passed it down to the NEXT MOST "eligible" vessel...the body of Guru Angad Ji..and so on. Guru Arjun Ji's Human Body endured the MOST HORRIBLE TORTURES..He felt Pain..but endured it for TERA BHANNA..a LESSON to His SIKHS that such times will also come for them and so be PREPARED. Thus it would be a great injustice to say BHAI MANI SINGH JI didnt feel any pain being cut from joint by joint, or Bhai mati dass Ji felt no pain being sawed in half...they all did as they were HUMAN....BUT the GURU Ji's mahaan shaheedee / Gurbani Naam japp/ etc had built up their threshhold to such a height...they ENDURED it all with a smile on their faces..Today we have the GURU JYOT ( spiritual khazannah) in GURU GRANTH JI....and Modern Sikhs also endured the most horrible tortures Ribero/KPGill could throw at them...BUT not a Single SIKH "broke" under torture...all preferred death.

    Guru Amardass ji in Bani Ramkali sadd gives clear instructions as to what is to be done after his body dies...it is a first person account by sunder ji a realtive of Guru ji.

    There are "SAMADHS" of most of the Sikh gurus to signify thier last resting places.
    Our GURUS never pretended to be anything they were not..NO MIRACLES against NATURE, NO VIOLATIONS of WAHEGURU's HUKM...no supernatural powers...

    jarnail Singh
     
  10. Arvind

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    Most of the times, above is true.
     
  11. Neutral Singh

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    ...and when is this not true? Please elaborate. Thanks
     
  12. Arvind

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    Aman veer,
    While writing so, I was thinking of
    1. three days stay under river by Guru Nanak Dev ji
    2. snake to protect Guru Nanak from sun shine
    3. the disappearance of Guru's bodies as already told in this thread.
    Regards.
     
  13. Sher Singh

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    I just want to add one thing, we say none of the Guru's actually died. But as i have been taught, Guru Harkrishan Ji died due to Small Pox, and he had his body cremated, AND Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji was beheaded and his body was cremated.
     
  14. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    In Hindus there are mnay an avtars which could be only imginary just to give an idealisation of human being.

    Like Rama as ideal king.

    Krishana an ideal politician.


    But ideotic bramanical fools meshmesshed miracles with them and resoted to thier person worship by ignorent masses.they as a middle men got all the offering made to Rama or Krishana.

    While actual writers like Valmiki Ji or Ved Vysa Ji wanted us to be an ideal lie Rama and Krishana and not to worship them.

    Das can say that it is a possiblity that Rama or Krishana actaully existed and there can be otherwise also.

    coming to our Gurus.Well they were real.And some pople who wanted to be middlemen made mirqacles attahced to them so that we start to worship Guru and do not worship Akal so that pocket be full.

    Any so called Sant who talks rubish to make Guru super human or idealise to absurdy is doing Anti Gurmat work and must be discouraged.

    Anyway it was Gurra Khan related to Painda Khan who stabbed Guru and Guru did leave his body(Refer Sau Sakhi) but irony is that Namdharis who also follow Sau Sakhi do not agree to it.

    As far As True Guru of us is concern that is neither born nor die.and once we are one with that we are Khalsa and enjoy the satus of Guru.
     
  15. drkhalsa

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    Very well said vijaydeep , I usually also feels very uncomfortable when Parcharak try to move audience emotionally by giving such stories which are really hard to believe
     
  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Most of the so called "parcharaks" are the uneducated types who learnt seena baseena ( oral traditions" and have no academic grounding in sikh history, evidence etc...so they are merely entertainers more than parcharaks..they embellish their parchaar with miracle tales, myths, giants and rakshahs, demons etc to make them sound interesting...the Dhadees bring in EMOTION..to get more chharrawa...etc.


    That is why these stories and miracles get told more and more..each one tryign to out do the others by being more imaginative...

    BUT they FORGET that TRUTH is stranger than FICTION....and GURBANI is more INTERESTING than myths and sakhees..

    when will the day coem when we have genuine educated missionaries well grounded in GURBANI and our History..

    jarnail Singh
     
  17. gursidak

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    Our GURU Never died and never will!

    If we just think over this with a composed mind in the light of Gurbani (I am not going to bring out specific quotes because this is the essense of Sikhism and anybody who is a 'seeker' ought to have felt it day in and day out) the above won't be hard to come by.

    For one, to my knowledge and belief we are believers in 'Shabad Guru' and 'Divine Jyot' and begining with Guru Nanak and continuing with SGGS we see a steady transformation from the belief of 'Divine Jyot' to 'Shabad Guru' by our Gurus so that by the time Guru Gobind Singh Ji revealed the Gurugaddi of SGGS, the Sikhs had graduated to that plane where the idea was fairly easily grasped and accepted - goes without saying that it was 'unprecedented' for the whole of mankind but 'acceptable;' and acceptable not for our intelligence but because we as 'followers' were groomed to a level where we can see and understand reason in such an unprecedented step.

    With the above at the back of our mind, one known fact is that all of our Gurus either directly or by way of some indication amply indicated the transfer or the 'Divine Jyot' to the next Guru while they were 'VERY MUCH alive' and then only they left their mortal form. So, the 'deaths' (whatever form they came as discussed in this thread) never came to our Guru, never could have, and never will (period).

    If the above gains acceptance with us, the historical proofs or the lack of it as to the 'death' of, say, Guru Gobind Singh Ji or any Guru for that matter won't affect us that much leading to all that less controversy and distraction for our minds.

    Also, due to reasons mainly to do with my limited intelligence, I am not bringing out any quotes from Gurbani but would request the many competent and intelligent 'seekers' involved in this thread, to substantiate this thought with pertinent quotes and in case they find this thought on the wrong lines (very strong possibility as I already revealed my limited intelligence), then please help all of us further understand the real truth in light of Gurbani.

    Guru Rakha

    Gurfateh
     
  18. Anoop

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    you know what. These sikh gurus, i think they were actually in form of god. God is like impossible for us to knw what it is. God is death, love, pain, pleasure, indeed everything, the very ultimate. The sikh gurus i think had gained the ultimate level of god. I think they were born for this world to know the ultimate mystery to this life. These Sikh gurus, i think, were not any ordinary people. They were mysterious in a good way. They were the power of god that really exists. We are all a drama, we shouldnt be scared of anything really. Its not complicated talking about this life. I think there is an important meaning to the way sikh gurus died and dissapeared. The Sikh Gurus i think still had unfinnished business in this world, but when the time had went by, i think, everything became better, and where it should be. The Sikh Gurus still exist, in the ultimate, no one knows. When i think of god, i think something which i will never experince in my whole life till i die. I am limited to human senses, but god is something you can not mention, it is just to powerful.
     
  19. Sher_Singh

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    All the bodies of the Gurus did die. Of course, that is nature. But what you have to see is that when this mission was taken up by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, as commanded by Akaal, he knew that it would take more than one life time to comlete this mission. He knew that his spirit, Nanak Jot, could pass on from body to body. And that is what was done. The final form of this Jot is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, who is the Living Nanak.

    Sri Akaal Sahai
     
  20. jonnyBravoWarm

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    Sat Sri AKAL

    Another question which i would like to ask is why do sikhs burn the dead bodies. Is there a particular reason behind burning the body? I know this might be a foolish question because we are not superstitious but still, did we just pick out burning as a random choice or was it a well thought of decision?

    I think burning would definately not be an environment friendly act today but could it be different then?
     
  21. drkhalsa

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    Dear Brother


    As I understand this choice of burning would be more convenient rather than random choice

    About being enviorenment friendly I think it is still quite friendly as compared to other method that is Burial in which you make cemetry at the place of burial and that piece of land is wasted for ever and if it contiues their could even be shortage of land in busy cities
     
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