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Hinduism Hinduism Rant

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Kamala, Jun 8, 2012.

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  1. Kamala

    Kamala
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    I made a new thread because I was told to instead of changing topic in a different one. So anyways you can reply here.

    I hear many things said badly about the Hindu Gods who the Guru ji himself praises, but most things on SPN is focused on what the western world would think is bad, whenever I reply on something that is a /good/ point in my side, no one seems to reply or care and focuses on the bad side.

    @Gyani ji I know you are telling me the Saraswati story, but Brahma did not even conceive her with a partner, he made her himself, literally. As per the Rohini story, I did not know of, I am sure she was created the same way as Saraswati was, I agree it was not good for him to do that but it's done and stopped. :)

    I also almost always see people on this site saying that reincarnation and karma is not part of Sikhism, which is extremely incorrect.
     
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  3. Kanwaljit Singh

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    No one is saying bad things about Hindu 'Gods' but we are just pointing out how these deities are used by the priestly class to misguide people. They are not offering knowledge but multitudes of dualities. Sikhi says that there is only ONE Akaal Purakh. Everything else is irrelevant. Now you read and understand what your Guru is saying:

    ਕੂਅਟਾ ਏਕੁ ਪੰਚ ਪਿਨਹਾਰੀ ॥ (325)
    There is one well, and five water-carriers.

    ਟੂਟੀ ਲਾਜੁ ਭਰੈ ਮਿਤ ਹਾਰੀ ॥੩॥ (325)
    Even though the rope is broken, the fools continue trying to draw water.

    ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਕ ਬੁਧਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ (325)
    Says Kabeer, through contemplation, I have obtained this one understanding.

    ਨਾ ਓਹੁ ਕੂਅਟਾ ਨਾ ਪਿਨਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੧੨॥ (325)
    There is no well, and no water-carrier.

    Also read the latest blog post here:
    http://princeofpunjab.blogspot.com/

    http://princeofpunjab.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/recently-i-went-to-chinese-restaurant.html
     
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    #2 Kanwaljit Singh, Jun 9, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2012
  4. Kamala

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    Yeah I understand there is one god, but mainly I am just saying the Devis/Devtas exist but are not God. Even the Guru ji says that but no one really listens here..
     
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  5. Kanwaljit Singh

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    Guru Sahib is not confirming their existence, but saying whatever if exists in this Universe, is in tune with Waheguru all the time. And for you, we are saying that it is irrelevant to try and prove to us or yourself that Hindu Deities exist. You should believe and pray to One Lord, for it is ALL THAT MATTERS!

    ਬਸੰਤੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
    Basant, Third Mehl:

    ਬਨਸਪਤਿ ਮਉਲੀ ਚੜਿਆ ਬਸੰਤੁ ॥
    The season of spring has come, and all the plants have blossomed forth.

    ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਉਲਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੰਗਿ ॥੧॥
    This mind blossoms forth, in association with the True Guru. ||1||

    ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸਾਚੁ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ਮੁਗਧ ਮਨਾ ॥
    So meditate on the True Lord, O my foolish mind.

    ਤਾਂ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    Only then shall you find peace, O my mind. ||1||Pause||

    ਇਤੁ ਮਨਿ ਮਉਲਿਐ ਭਇਆ ਅਨੰਦੁ ॥
    This mind blossoms forth, and I am in ecstasy.

    ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ॥੨॥
    I am blessed with the Ambrosial Fruit of the Naam, the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||2||
     
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  6. Kamala

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    Well the Guru kinda does prove the existance:

    ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥
    नानक भगता सदा विगासु ॥
    Nānak bẖagṯā saḏā vigās.
    O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.
    ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੮॥
    सुणिऐ दूख पाप का नासु ॥८॥
    Suṇi▫ai ḏūkẖ pāp kā nās. ||8||
    Listening-pain and sin are erased. ||8||
    ਸੁਣਿਐ ਈਸਰੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਇੰਦੁ ॥
    सुणिऐ ईसरु बरमा इंदु ॥
    Suṇi▫ai īsar barmā inḏ.
    Listening-Shiva, Brahma and Indra.
    ਸੁਣਿਐ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਲਾਹਣ ਮੰਦੁ ॥
    सुणिऐ मुखि सालाहण मंदु ॥
    Suṇi▫ai mukẖ sālāhaṇ manḏ.
    Listening-even foul-mouthed people praise Him.
    ਸੁਣਿਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਤਨਿ ਭੇਦ ॥
    सुणिऐ जोग जुगति तनि भेद ॥
    Suṇi▫ai jog jugaṯ ṯan bẖeḏ.
    Listening-the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.
    ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਵੇਦ ॥
    सुणिऐ सासत सिम्रिति वेद ॥
    Suṇi▫ai sāsaṯ simriṯ veḏ.
    Listening-the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas.
    ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥
    नानक भगता सदा विगासु ॥
    Nānak bẖagṯā saḏā vigās.
    O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.

    Not wanting to start debates anymore, think whatever you want~~
     
  7. Luckysingh

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    Good point but this is where it does go wrong as well. You see as sikhs we are to worship the One and True Lord not our gurus. The gurus made it clear that we shouldn't be worshipping them at all.
    However, there may have been so many hindu gods but to worship them is not in line with sikhism.
    This is the main defining line. Respect the these gods as such but treat them as guides only and not worship them.
     
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  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    First of all SPN is NOT a "Rant"...we are all wonderful people here and no one "rants"....rants can be found elsewhere..BUT definitely NOT here.

    Secondly there is no Hinduism Rant...or Islam rant or any such..SPN is the most OPEN and most WIDELY ACCLAIMED Fair Forum for ALL RELIGIONS...to come together and discuss like educated well informed individuals. Anyone who Rants or "rants about Rants" must be Ranting...and may be excused by the rest....

    SPN main FOCUS is on GURMATT, GURBANI as authenticated by inclusion in the One and Only GURU SGGS, writings of Guru Gobind Singh ji, Bhai gurdass Ji, Bhai Nand Lal Ji, Sikh history, Sikh Tradtions, sikh oral traditions etc etc...and THUS any SIKH connotation has to pass he Litmus Test of Gurbani in SGGS. GURBANI is Universal ETERNAL TRUTH...all rest is man made OPINIONS....and as such can be DEBATEd or discussed...BUT Gurbani is out of bounds for alterations distortions, misinterpretations etc to suit other religious beleifs. What the GURU condemns clearly is what Gurbani means clearly. NO RANTING PLEASE.japposatnamwaheguru: we are SIKHS..we DONT RANT.
     
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਪੜੈ ਨਹੀ ਬੂਝੈ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਲੂਝੈ ॥
    One who reads, while attached to duality, does not understand.
    He yearns for the three forms of Maya.

    ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਬੰਧਨ ਤੂਟਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥
    The bonds of the three-formed Maya are broken by Guru's Shabad. Through the Guru's Shabad, liberation is achieved.


    Yearning for the Three Forms of MAYA..the DUALITY..the Devis, the Devtas, the demi Gods..as "REAL>>they EXIST..etc etc etc..." lead to NOT UNDERSTANDING of GURU SHABAD. A SIKH AIMS for LIBERATION..not ENSLAVEMENT !!:interestedkudi:
     
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  10. Kanwaljit Singh

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    ਬਾਬੀਹਾ ਤੂੰ ਸਚੁ ਚਉ ਸਚੇ ਸਉ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
    O rainbird, chirp the True Name, and let yourself be attuned to the True Lord.

    ਬੋਲਿਆ ਤੇਰਾ ਥਾਇ ਪਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਲਾਇ ॥
    Your word shall be accepted and approved, if you speak as Gurmukh.

    ਸਬਦੁ ਚੀਨਿ ਤਿਖ ਉਤਰੈ ਮੰਨਿ ਲੈ ਰਜਾਇ ॥
    Remember the Shabad, and your thirst shall be relieved; surrender to the Will of the Lord.

    ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾ ਝੋਕਿ ਵਰਸਦਾ ਬੂੰਦ ਪਵੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥
    The clouds are heavy, hanging low, and the rain is pouring down on all sides; the rain-drop is received, with natural ease.

    ਜਲ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਊਪਜੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਜਲ ਪਿਆਸ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
    From water, everything is produced; without water, thirst is not quenched.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਜਲੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਪੀਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਭੂਖ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਆਇ ॥੫੫॥
    O Nanak, whoever drinks in the Water of the Lord, shall never feel hunger again. ||55||

    Now here are my questions.. what is Har(i) Jal or God's Water? How is it different from Water? Who are these Babihaa and Chatrik? Which is such a rain bird who doesn't drink any other water except direct rainfall? Do you now understand poetic metaphors?

    Ram or Krishna or Vishnu or Shiva don't exist! It is impossible to determine or irrelevant if they ever existed! Sikhs only love and pine for Waheguru. For me any other 'deity' is as important as ash, for that is what we all come to! Love humans not stone idols. Feel emotions of real people, not imaginary beings. More power to atheists!
     
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  11. findingmyway

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    Kamala ji, Gurbani does not confirm the existence of Hindu Gods but merely uses the names and stories as illustration. The people at the time were familiar with the stories so it is an effective way of getting your point across to the target audience! This is not the same as believing the stories. Hindu mythology is MYTHOLOGY as the existence or non-existence cannot be proved and is irrelevant. Only the moral of the stories matter.
     
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  12. Luckysingh

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    That's probably the most simple way to describe it.
    I always try to use the most simplest answers that even a child can understand, but in all honesty I couldn't have come up with that one.

    So, in simple terms again, if the Guru's were physically active in todays age and writing, then they would probably include examples of Little red riding hood, Snow white, Harry Potter...etc....etc... -SIMPLE!!!
     
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  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    The Guru sahib USED POPULAR FOLK LORE TUNES...for the Vaars..Like for example the Vaar Asa Ki..highly SPIRITUAL CONTENT...being the sum-total essence of Guru nanak jis travels and rituals, pakhands, etc etc He saw being done in the name of RELIGION...sootak, woman's position, fasts, baths at holy places, pilgrimages, gaoo gobar (BS), etc etc...is set to the TUNE of TUNDA RAAJA ASRAJA ki DHUN...a popular Folk lore story of the One armed raja asraja which was practically on everyones lips back then...Ditto for the other Vaars...highly spiritual message but set to FOLKLORE TUNES..Ghorrian, Allahnniah, are ALL Folk tunes songs sung at weddings, funerals etc..
    IN ESSENCE GURU JI gave us an ALTERNATIVE...a SPIRITUAL ALTERNATIVE to what was very popular and CULTURAL....instead of singing the same old GHORREEANN of the brother riding his horse etc etc..GURU JI Gave us the SPIRITUAL GHORRIAHN to sing and be ONE with HIM...

    IF it were TODAY..YES Guru ji would be using Justin beiber..Michael jackson's songs..or even Elvis Presleys Beatles melodies..why NOT ?? Whats so great and spiritual about the tale of the One armed King thats not in Whacko Jackos songs ??.. And instead of Sajjan Thuggh the Evil ones highlighted would be Hitler Stalin etc...

    BUT if there is one thing about us SIKHS/PUNJABIS..it is..we FORGET EASILY... See just how many DAYS..we spend in utterly useless and worthless "cultural" dos and donts...the GROWN UP BOY and GIRL..who have been Bathing themsleves all this while..suddenly sit down in front of old ladies in PUBLIC..and get themsleves rubbed in haldi, dhain, mehndii etc etc...in ceremonies supposedly absolutley essential...BUT when its time for the GURU to BRIEFLY INSTRUCT US..via the 4 Laavan....we RUSH IN..and inform the Granthi.."Look here Bhai sahib..we are already very very LATE...got no time for all this..so JUST do the laavan as FAST as YOU CAN..and be over with IT....we Got THINGS to do man..like downing a bottle of whisky....chew on a chicken drumstick..and do the BHANGRA !!! REMEMBER..FAST>>>FASTER is even BETTER..got a BIG NOTE in YOUR BHETA if you roll over everything super duper FAST !!...........and so the Gyanis and the ragis go like Chinas super fast Train...on the laavan ardass hukmnamahs etc...
    makes SENSE ?? The anand KARAJ in the GURUS PRESENCE is THE ONE MOST IMPORTANT part..and we have NO TIME to spare !! Thats who we are...apologies for digressing...but all these are connected to show GURU jis SIMPLICITY and CLARITY...which we make CONFUSING, COMPLICATEd and MUDDLED.
     
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  14. Kamala

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    Ugh I never said Hari was Vishnu, and I have no idea why you posted that quote since it has nothing to do with them existing or not.. no wonder this is kalyug...... :p
    Umm okay, but they exist. Mahamaya is a Devi as well xD
     
  15. Kamala

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    So you think the Guru ji lies when he states Shiva, Parvati, Lakshmi, and Brahma pray to the one god in the quote??
    Yeah he would be using Justin Bieber, because HE EXIST.... I don't think he would write that bella from twilight prays to god or something like that lol since they don't exist.
     
  16. Archived_member15

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    I had a good few chuckles reading the latter posts in this thread ie about Gurus using Justin Bieber song lyrics if they lived today lol

    Actually I heard a line in a Justin Bieber song that I actually thought was very moral:

    "Hate may win some battles but love wins in the end"

    :grinningsingh:

    Although I can't really picture them using, "Baby, baby, baby Ohhh!!" lol lol lol
     
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  17. Archived_member15

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    Many of the world's great spiritual teachers used parables and fictional stories to express spiritual truths.

    Think of Jesus - I mean no one actually believes that there actually was a real Prodigal Son, Good Samaritan, Dishonest Manager, Good Shepherd, Unforgiving Servant, Unjust Judge, Friend at Night, Rich Fool etc. ? One could also consider the very colourful parable of the Rich man and Lazarus where Jesus actually gives his fictional character of the poor man a name - Lazarus. This is practically Jesus' telling a very short story with a fictional protagonist and antagonist. Kamala used the example of the Twilight character Bella - well, Jesus actually creatured fictional characters in his stories and told them to common people during his wandering teaching miniostry around Galilee and Judea. In the Old Testament there are many fictional stories. The Book of Judith is actually said to be the first historical novel! It is completely fictional, as is the story of Susanna which is the first detective story and can be found in the Bible! Other examples are the Book of Job and the Book of Tobit both of which are clearly fiction. Judith, Tobit, Tobias, Susanna, Job and a few more biblical heroes and heroines never existed.
    And Jesus invented all of the people in his Gospel Parables from his own mind. That doesn't mean because they are fictional that these stories are not true in the moral sense however just as we cannot take Jesus' stories literally I think it would be a misreading of the text of the Holy Granth too suggest that in using characters and stories famaliar to Indians so as to help raise their spiritual awareness that the Gurus were thereby expressing belief in Hindu gods and mythological figures.

    In the Gospel of Luke, the parable of the Good Samaritan - for example - is introduced by a question, known as the Great Commandment:
    Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
    He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"
    He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind and your neighbour as yourself."
    He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."
    But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbour?"
    — Luke 10:25–29, World English Bible
    Jesus replies with a story:
    Jesus answered, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan while travelling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii,gave them to the innkeeper, and said, “Take care of him; and when I come back, I will repay you whatever more you spend.” Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbour to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?"
    He said, "The one who showed him mercy."
    Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."
    — Luke 10:30–37 (NRSV)​



    Now this is clearly fictional. If we were being really literalist then we could take Jesus words at face value: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho..." as fact, Jesus was aware of a certain man who travelled from Jerusalem to Jericho. However this beginning is clearly a story-intriduction not unlike, "Once upon a time"....Jesus is asked a question and thinks up a little moral tale that will be entertaining and hold his audience's attention yet teach them a spiritual truth by using ideas famaliar to his listeners - the conflict, during his time, between the Jews and Samaritans who had different religions and were of different races and hated each other. The Samaritans had devils according to the Jews of tis time. But this Samaritan was the only person who helped this dying Jew, and even paid for a few nights at the Inn. Think Sunni and Shia, Protestant and Catholic...This is what Jesus was trying to heal in the Parable of the Samaritan, as well as racial/ethnic fighting. Jesus risked a lot in telling this Parable. In taking the side of the "Good Samaritan" over his fellow Jews, Jesus would have been viewed by many as a traitor to his people. The Judaeo-Samaritan conflict was a very real and terrible ethno-religious dispute similar to the modern Israel-Palestine conflict. The striking features of Jesus' parables is that they twist the hearer's expectations, contain an element of surprise and are generally very shocking in their context. Jesus' parables are the equivalent of modern-day films with a huge PLOT TWIST. The Baddie turns out to be a Goodie afterall. Jesus was a master at this. You can almost imagine his original listeners hearing of the Priest and the Levite and thinking - yes, these are pious Jews those are the good guys! And then - SHOCK HORRROR - its a Samaritan, one of those so-called "filthy", allegedly "demon possessed" half-breeds who is the true neighbour and friend of humanity! This is fictional story-telling not that far removed from modern novels. You can easily discern plot, characterisation etc. in Jesus' parables.

    Now why can the Gurus not have done the same with Hindu mythology familiar to their listeners? No one has ever taken Jesus' parables as factual narratives, so I fail to see why one need view the Gurus use of mythological tales and heroes of India in a factual light.

    It is an unecessary extrapolation to think that because a spiritual teacher mentions characters and tales that he believes or intended them to be taken as historical fact.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
  18. Kanwaljit Singh

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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    Kamala ji you have totally ignored the points I was putting forward:

    ਜਲ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਊਪਜੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਜਲ ਪਿਆਸ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
    From water, everything is produced; without water, thirst is not quenched.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਜਲੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਪੀਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਭੂਖ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਆਇ ॥੫੫॥
    O Nanak, whoever drinks in the Water of the Lord, shall never feel hunger again. ||55||

    Now here are my questions.. what is Har(i) Jal or God's Water? How is it different from Water? Who are these Babihaa and Chatrik? Which is such a rain bird who doesn't drink any other water except direct rainfall? Do you now understand poetic metaphors?
     
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  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

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    Re: Hinduism rant.


    NO jios..NOT the WORDS...just the TUNES/MELODIES. The Vaars are sung to the TUNES/MELODIES of Popular Folk songs/Ballads. The WORDS of the Ballad of The One armed King Tunda Asraja DONT MATTER.
    icecreammundaicecreammunda
     
  20. Kamala

    Kamala
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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    I still don't understand Kanwaljit Singh..
     
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  21. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Re: Hinduism rant.

    Discussing Sikhism through the lens of Hinduism is not helpful. But trying to understand sikhism through this mechanism is always fraught with many risks. You should read entire Gurbani to appreciate the context of the message of sikhism as is intended to be conveyed by the Gurus else you run the risk of even forgetting the Hinduism and end up in a mess. I have gone through the posts of GYani ji ,Kanwaljit singh and findingmyway ; it should answer your all the queries- If these do not, you should be happy with that you understand. Why unnecessarily impose 'transference' of concepts that may not have valid place in sikhism in toto?

    Do not try to mix apples and oranges. Let us enjoy ourselves both of these and have the full taste of these. If you like apples , I like oranges...Status quo maintained.

    Sikhism is different from Hinduism and it shall always remain so irrespective of what you feel. Kindly read a Book titled ' Hum Hindu Nahin'; it shall resolve many of your predicaments. You should Goggle out and try to read this. It shall be of immense help. Till the time you appreciate sikhism and map it out correctly; my full sympathies with you.! Nothing comes to us free of cost. Invest some time and labor and you will be suitably rewarded.

    Warm Regard!
     
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    #20 Taranjeet singh, Jun 12, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
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