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Hindu Origins of Astrology - Any Relevance to Sikhi?

Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by spnadmin, Oct 20, 2007.

  1. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    The Rehit Maryada explicitly forbids consulting with soothsayers. Guru Nanaak spoke of the ever-present truth of the Divine's hukam - unknowable and firm. The Sikh view of karma is not a fatalistic view. Yet even some Sikhs, members of a truly modern religion, just like members of other faiths, continue to be attracted to astrology as a way to diagnose character and predict the future.

    Astrology is spurned by science, yet Vedic astrology was and continues to be an ancient way of understanding the workings of the universal and the cosmic plan. Spending only small amounts of time, hours or minutes here and there studying, one begins to marvel at the technology if not science of this path.

    Why the attraction of Sikhs to this path? When it is forbidden on the earthly plane to believe and act on it. And scorned on the spiritual plane because it is useless in our search for God? What historical and cultural reasons can be discussed?

    See this link to understand how entrenched we remain in the practice of astrology.

    Janum-Kundli
     
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  3. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Here are a few quotes from SGGS regarding astrologers:-

    After all their reading, the
    Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate. Their intellect and understanding are *******ed; they just
    don.t understand. They are filled with greed and corruption. Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused;
    through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined. They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can
    erase. || 3 || (SGGS 27)

    There are so many Pandits and
    astrologers who ponder over the Vedas. They glorify their disputes and arguments, and in these controversies they continue
    coming and going. Without the Guru, they are not released from their karma, although they speak and listen and preach and
    explain. || 7 | (SGGS 56)

    Nanak, through the Naam, greatness is obtained; through the Word of the
    Guru.s Shabad, He is realized. || 8 || 5 || 22 || SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: Everyone longs to be centered and balanced,
    but without the Guru, no one can. The Pandits and the astrologers read and read until they grow weary, while the fanatics are
    deluded by doubt. Meeting with the Guru, intuitive balance is obtained, when God, in His Will, grants His Grace. || 1 || O
    Siblings of Destiny, without the Guru, intuitive balance is not obtained. Through the Word of the Shabad, intuitive peace and
    poise wells up, and that True Lord is obtained. || 1 || Pause || SGGS 68)

    The Pandits, the
    religious scholars, the teachers and astrologers, and those who endlessly read the Puraanas, do not know what is within; God
    is hidden deep within them. || 4 || Some penitents perform penance in the forests, and some dwell forever at sacred shrines.
    The unenlightened people do not understand themselves . why have they become renunciates? || 5 || Some control their
    sexual energy, and are known as celibates. But without the Guru.s Word, they are not saved, and they wander in
    reincarnation. || 6 || (SGGS 419)

    All the religious scholars and astrologers read and study, and argue and shout. Who are they trying to teach? Deep within, they
    are stained with the filth of emotional attachment to Maya; they deal in Maya alone. They love to deal in Maya in this world;
    coming and going, they suffer in pain. The worm of poison is addicted to poison; it is immersed in manure. He does what is
    pre-ordained for him; no one can erase his destiny. O Nanak, attuned to the Naam, lasting peace is found; the ignorant fools
    die screaming. || 3 || (SGGS 571)


    There are more verses available.
     
  4. TGill

    TGill
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    Hi Aad ji and Begum ji

    The duality remains until we know the truth.
    How can not referring to artrology going to help someone know the truth that Babaji is saying. If not then better be knowlegeable.

    Babaji told us to be happy in param purakh's will, do we do that in any case?

    I think sikhs need to open up a little. A high correlation does not necessarily mean causality !!
     
  5. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Begum Jee!

    Thanks for the references.

    Quote "Here are a few quotes from SGGS regarding astrologers:-"
    I did not know that SGGS Jee is spoken and written by the Gurus in English.
    For those who have understood their Guru's English well this is what the true Guru is singing about Pandit and Jotkee.

    ਪੰਡਿਤ ਵਾਚਹਿ ਪੋਥੀਆ ਨਾ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
    पंडित वाचहि पोथीआ ना बूझहि वीचारु ॥
    "pandit vaacheh pothee-aa naa boojheh veechaar." SGGS Ang 56-8
    Pandit watches volumes, does not resolve contemplation.

    Look at the luck of Sikhs longing to become Pandits. They meet also Pandits regularly in Gurdwaras.
    The pandit is one who watches Pothees. The true Gurus have also written Pothees. Many Pandits are watching those to prove their smartness.

    **************

    ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥
    गणि गणि जोतकु कांडी कीनी ॥
    "gani gani jotak kaaNdee keenee."
    Calculating by counting the astrologer draws the horoscope.

    ਪੜੈ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੀ ॥
    पड़ै सुणावै ततु न चीनी ॥
    "parhai sunaavai tat na cheenee." SGGS Ang 904-12
    He reads, narrates does not recognize the essence.

    I found astrologers predicting the fate of Sikhs without recognizing the Truth of Naam.
    They go on preaching the beneficial time of Amrit Velaa, the number of Paaths and Akhand-Paaths and profits from that.


    Balbir Singh
     
  6. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    To Balbir Singh ji and all,

    Those of us who oppose English translation for whatever reason, might have more to worry about in the future because Granth Sahib, once officially translated to English can also be translated to any language.

    However, I personally do not see any problem in doing so.

    Read this article:
    Granth Sahib to be in English
    19 Oct 2007, 0121 hrs IST[​IMG],[​IMG]TNN


    AMRITSAR: Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) on Thursday announced to translate Guru Granth Sahib in English. The decision was taken in the meeting of Dharam Parchar Committee (DPC) of SGPC.

    DPC also passed a resolution condemning the efforts of Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Management Committee (DSGMC) of allegedly exporting saroop of Guru Granth Sahib.

    Avtar Singh Makkar, SGPC president, said the decision has been taken to spread the philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib. He said for this purpose services of Sikh scholars - Jaswant Singh Neki and Jodh Singh - will be taken.

    DPC also urged jathedar of Akal Takht to take notice of the incident of sending saroop outside India by Paramjit Singh Sarna, president of DSGMC. Makkar said instead of seeking forgiveness at Akal Takht, Sarna was allegedly trying to divert the attention. A 21-member committee has also been constituted for Sikh mission, Chhattisgarh.
     
  7. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all!

    The Wisdom of the true and universal Gurus is not limited to a language.
    The understanding of the translators may be limited to grasp the Wisdom of the Gurus.


    Balbir Singh
     
  8. spnadmin

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    Respected Begum Balbir TGill -- all veer ji!

    You have all spoken in very clear voices. The shabads are clear aren't they? And habits that are centuries old die hard-- so it appears.

    I don't want to seem to be pointing a finger at Sikhs -- because astrology has this incredible fascination and even power over people everywhere in every religious path -- in the West and in the East. Education doesn't change things -- I know engineers who watch the planet Mercury and it's motion with great interest because the actions of Mercury presumably influence communication by mail, phone, computer, etc. I dabble in astrology -- and am a little ashamed of this.

    Since the Janam Kundli thread began years ago, it has been viewed over 10,000 times by SPN members and visitors. That says something?

    What are the historical and cultural influences?
     
  9. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

    The topic raised is "Hindu Origins of Astrology - Any Relevance to Sikhi?"
    Those who have now credited astrology to Hindus cannot claim any relevance to Sikhi.

    It is pity that Ignorant have credited Many Attributes of God to Hindus. Perhaps they believe that one day God will be left for them when they give up all this way.

    I have asked many astrologers, where from they have learnt the subject. Rarely someone was capable to mention his true Guru. Most proudly announce the name of the books they have read.

    Without the true Sabad Guru how can one become a true astrologer or any other professional and reach the heights and depths of cosmic consciousness, God's Wisdom.
    This is that Gurdev is singing mentioning a Pandit, astrologer or a businessperson.


    Balbir Singh
     
  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Balbir ji

    I am having a hard time following what you say.

    The topic raised is "Hindu Origins of Astrology - Any Relevance to Sikhi?"
    Those who have now credited astrology to Hindus cannot claim any relevance to Sikhi.

    It is pity that Ignorant have credited Many Attributes of God to Hindus. Perhaps they believe that one day God will be left for them when they give up all this way.


    I thought I was basically in agreement with your point of view from Gurbani. What does
    "Those who have now credited astrology to Hindus have no relevance to Sikhi" mean?

    a. Anyone who says astrology began with Hindus has no relevance to Sikhi?

    b. Anyone who agrees with Hindu astrology has no relevance to Sikhi?

    c. Another answer - a and b were not what you meant?

    I ask because when one simply makes a comment on the history of anything that doesn't change one's personal beliefs. It would just be a comment on history. For example, if someone says that Jainism is older than Sikhi it doesn't mean the person's religious beliefs are changed. I don't understand what you mean.

    Actually astrology began with the Babylonians. It was the basis for their belief in Divine Government. Now that I have said that, does that change my belief in Sikhism in any way?
     
  11. TGill

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    I don't see any agreement aad ji.

    A true sikh knows the real astrology (which is neither hindu nor babylonian). It comes from his True Guru. Where is Guru Granth sahib ji forbidding anyone to know astrology. A sikh knows it on its own...

    Guruji is just asking the fake ones who are limited and don't know the whole to go to the True Guru and know it !!
     
  12. Astroboy

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    Aadji,

    Since Astrology has engulfed a wide area of influence on the human being, it was meant to be holistic science for those who had no access to modern information. Often an astrologer or palm reader would also act as a "witch doctor" to benefit the uneducated client through faith healing.

    Thus became a norm to employ an astrologer - mostly fakes - to arrive at the fate of a client's health.

    There's a saying in Punjabi:
    "In order to cover up one lie, you have to speak a hundred more lies."

    The next lie an astrologer would make is in the area of confusion - something like - there are two planetary influences in your life - one is saturn and the other is moon. It depends on the devtas of the moon to come to your rescue but because of " blah blah" their travel time can be hindered by Satan.

    So the next thing a (woman) client would be asked to do is to have her body anointed with perfume oil mix with herbs. These tricks are driven by one thing - Kaam (Lust).

    Of course, the more experienced a faith healer becomes, the more accurate his/her predictions can be - simply an understanding of similarities - which gives an impression of him/her being psychic.

    Why are these mediums in business ?
    Because of ignorance of the truth.
    The "instant gratification" the clients get - mainly by exciting their emotions or uplifting them to a point which makes the client temporarily forget their ordeal.
    Everything is psychological in nature.

    So this can form a fragment of an answer which aad ji asked - relevence to Sikhi.
    I would say no relevence at all to Gurmat.
    But if you are confusing sikhs as a race and asking the cultural and traditional aspects, then I have no answer.
     
  13. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

    Knowledge (Vidya) does not have a religion. Vidya may belong to every sincere learner (Sikh). Strange, who has convinced them it is Hindu?
    Knowledge of any worldly profession is limited without the true Guru and the Grace of God.

    Quote "Actually astrology began with the Babylonians."
    Astrology for all beings begins with the awareness through the first contact with astro-bodies.
    Existence of the cosmos is also a being. A baby discovers it and wonders. They fill all beings with enthusiasm observing the cosmos. The same thing happened with Babylonians.
    Astrology is not the birth right of human beings either.
    In my view, weathercocks existed even before they built the city of Babylon.

    Smart preachers assume that Amrit Vela is somewhere between mid night and the sun rise. A true Sikh knows the exact Muhurat (time) of it as he has experienced it meeting the true Guru.
    True astrology also begins with true Naam Simran.

    Quote from TGill Jee "Guruji is just asking the fake ones who are limited and don't know the whole to go to the True Guru and know it !!"
    This is great understanding.

    Without true Naam every profession is ego oriented, fakes and wasting the precious life.


    Balbir Singh
     
  14. spnadmin

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    OK, let me start over.

    The thread was about the historical and cultural reasons for adherence to astrology, even when it is forbidden by Rehit and Guru Nanaak said it was useless.

    Somehow we are going in this direction: I ask some questions and point out different angles to the topic, and the responses make it seem as if my brains are twisted.

    The questions are intended to get member reactions to the topic. How did my questions get mixed up with what I may or may not believe?

    This is the kind of dialog that is so typical on SPN. A major reason why I periodically lose any motivation to hang in here. Person X reads something into what Person Y said, and then gives Person Y a lecture.

    I only started this because one of the SPN leaders thought it would make a good topic for the History forum; otherwise it was a dead topic for me. Anyone want to talk about history?
     
  15. kds1980

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    Dear antonia ji

    there are hardcore astrologers in my family.One of the biggest reason for attraction
    to astrology is that we all want to know our future.everybody is curious to know what is going to happen in life.and if something bad is going to happen could we change it.that's why so many sikhs are attracted to astrology.we all have problems in our lives and we all try to solve it through different means like science,astrology,psychic readers etc.
     
  16. spnadmin

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    kds ji

    Thank you -- once again. For the same reason that I dabble, then. Half of it is amusement and half of it is the desire to know what is going to happen.

    Bliss would be acceptance of the Hukam -- I am not there yet.
     
  17. drkhalsa

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    I think I know what you are trying to say . Its basically lacking on the part of Moderators/leaders on forum as its their work to allingn the topic in right directions, so I fell sorry for that and please dont take lessons taught by various members to you as personal as I think everybody is teaching everybody else including their own conciouness.


    Now coming to the topic .

    my understand tells me that Astrology just gives some base to the fantasy nature of human mind and some kind of affirmation regarding relevance of the thier fantasy in some context and when we call it science , we just make it more solid and gives it more reason to belive in it ast soem level.

    Yes soem body who is living in Hukam, in present moment almost everything sieze to exist in trems of future and past and the only thing that one posses is moment so it as fantasy go so do the attarction for astrology. The knowledge about astrology can still remain but not the attraction .As I believ that in such state of counciouness( when one recognize HUKAM and dewel in moment) the relevance of jupiter going in particular direction and house is of exactly same relevance as one getiing million dollar lottery win as all the events in cosmos assume the same relevance .so its the just the attraction to particular type of events that our mind is interested in make the whole astrology thing corrupt
    now i think its enough of babling and time to sleep so good night!


    Jatinder Singh
     
  18. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

    Quote "The thread was about the historical and cultural reasons for adherence to astrology,"
    The title of this thread is "Hindu Origins of Astrology - Any Relevance to Sikhi?" It does not show that it is about the historical and cultural reasons for adherence to astrology.

    Quote "even when it is forbidden by Rehit and Guru Nanaak said it was useless."
    Astrology may be forbidden by Rehit. No surprise, why so many Sikhs reject Rehit that forbids basic human curiosity. Nowhere the Gurus have said that astrology, any vidya or profession is forbidden or useless. Please provide a reference if someone has found it different.

    In my experience, the Saint or Saadhoo like the true Guru never forbid or reject a person because of his occupation. They suggest only one thing namely true Naam Simran that brings all developments. Through them the wisdom of Simran is open to all without prejudicing.

    Gurbaanee says that through Naam Simran even Sinners get Muktee what to say about astrologers. Perhaps many will never get Muktee because the so-called Rehit has forbidden them and their way of life. I have seen many interested in astro-bodies bewildering wondrous creation of God merging in truth. Has anyone ever heard a Rehitnaamee announcing enlightenment?

    Balbir Singh
     
  19. spnadmin

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    Sriraag Guru Nanak Dev
    kyqy pMifq joqkI bydw krih bIcwru ]
    kaethae panddith jothakee baedhaa karehi beechaar ||
    There are so many Pandits and astrologers who ponder over the Vedas.

    wid ivroiD slwhxy vwdy Awvxu jwxu ]

    vaadh virodhh salaahanae vaadhae aavan jaan ||
    They glorify their disputes and arguments, and in these controversies they continue coming and going.

    ibnu gur krm n CutsI kih suix AwiK vKwxu ]7]
    bin gur karam n shhuttasee kehi sun aakh vakhaan ||7||
    Without the Guru, they are not released from their karma, although they speak and listen and preach and explain. ||7||

    See also this link for 8 references in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, 1 in Amrit Keertan index, 1 in Bhai Gurdas, and 1 in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji
     
  20. TGill

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    Lawyers does the same thing. I suggest they should be ostracized from Sikhi..:)
     
  21. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Well, William Shakespeare said, ...Kill all the lawyers. (Henry VI)

    Is that nice?
     

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