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Hindu or Sikh?

Discussion in 'Sikh Rehat Maryada' started by mannii, Feb 24, 2011.

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  1. mannii

    mannii
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    I wanted to know something that's been in my mind for quite a while:

    Before guru Nanak Dev ji was born and the khalsa panth was created were his parents hindu's...... were the majority of people hindus at that time and was it them who started converting to sikhism after it came around.... also were the panj piare also Hindu's?

    I know its a random question But I would just like to know the answer.
    Thanks in advance and sorry if I have made any mistakes. :happykudi:
     
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  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    mannii ji my input to your inquiry,

    Guru Nanak Dev ji

    Panjh Piyare who baptized Guru Gobind Singh ji who initially baptized them to establish Khalsa in 1699 ( I found the following during searching and was impressed so sharing but cannot vouch accuracy but in line with my understanding of the original names)

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    In a global way "Sikh" as we know stands for"Learner". So much so that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji has Gurbani included in it from the then lineage Hindus and Muslims who would have been considered from a Sikhism perspective Sikhs. So if one thinks Holistically this way then the first Sikh recognized for having gotten the essence of Sikhism is Baba Farid ji. He was a muslim. As Sikhism developed the Gurus, Bhagats and Baba Farid ji reached an extra-religious state of Sikhism and hence the reverence and inclusion of their writings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. So for me Baba Farid ji would be the first Sikh.

    Hope the above is of use in this dialog.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  4. Caspian

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    "There is no Hindu's and there is no Muslim" - Guru Nanak

    (I extend this to mean there is no "Sikh" as well, but I'm just a crazy atheist :p don't listen to me lol. Needless to say, I find the above quote deeply profound and I may wrongly (or rightly) associate it with my lack of religion). I think Im going to make it my tagline.
     
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Na Hum Hindu na mussalman..ALLAH RAM ke PIND PRAAN...KABIR JI.
    The CREATOR is ONE and the SAME.....the divisions are MAN-MADE.
    That is the Gist of Gurbani..Man shuts himself up in his own created boxes...Guur Nanak Ji taught us how to THINK outside the BOX...that is WHY each human is a SIKH..in soem way or other. A SIKH NEVER " arrives"....until his/her last breath...whereas the men inside their little tiny boxes labelled hinu, muslim, christian..have "ARRIVED" becasue they ahve chosen/or been chosen by someone who is the END all and BE-ALL. Example anyone who stakes his total faith on mUhammad..is saved..any one who accepts Jesus is saved etc etc...NO FURTHER EFFORT NECESSARY or demanded.
    A"Sikh" is promised NO SUCH THING by any Guru/Bhagat. For a SIKH its a JOURNEY lasting a life time.....THATS why there can never be a situation as stated by Caspian.."No Sikh" !!........except in a Nuclear Holocaust where each man, woman child and foetus is wiped out and Earth becomes totally barren.???:blueturban:
     
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  6. Caspian

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    Ah, I wish Guru Nanak were around to clear up the distinction. For him to say "There are no Hindu's, There are no Muslims, But there are sikhs" seems utterly hypocritical.

    But we're going to have to agree to disagree :p.

    We are all human :) even in the event of a nuclear holocaust... unless some of us survive and mutate into super-humans.... or sub-humans :p
     
  7. BhagatSingh

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    Caspian ji,
    The quote has to do with removing the filters of duality and seeing Oneness. Seeing individuals as conscious entities without judging their looks, castes, beliefs, affiliations. Guru Nanak said "There is no Hindu's and there is no Muslim" right after he came out of his 3 day long meditation in a river. So he must have had the experience of Oneness prior to that.

    I think you would be correct to extend it to "no Sikh" and further "no Atheist".
     
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  8. Caspian

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    My being "Atheist" stems for your being "Religious." If there realllly were no hindus, muslims and sikhs in the world, yes you cann in fact extend the quote to atheists then too. There would only be humans in this world and wow... what an awesome world it would be!

    Having said that, here in lies the difference between theory and practice. In theory there are no hindus, muslims and by extension sikhs and atheists.

    But after the 10th guru's need to make us a distinct religious group from the rest of the humans (spiritually and physically). We took a step backwards. And here we are, on this tiny crowded earth. A herd of hindus, a flock of christians, a murder of muslims, a pride of sikhs and a group of atheists constantly bickering.

    Practice brings about the death of theory :p There in lies my problems with the 10th guru
     
  9. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    I would say your being "atheist" stems from your ego, which has a need to always search for its identity. It's not only a reaction tothe outside world but an internal process whereby you have buildt up on that athiest identity. This is the default switch for everybody. The religious will say that their being "religious" stems from the "atheist/ no faith people" having no faith.... etc. These are ego based structures not only the religious but the atheists also have to take them down. So far they have only added to it.

    Seeing oneness is switching that default ego, me-ism off. And yes it would be great if everybody switched it off, not only would their suffering go away, so would the suffering of everyone else. But alas, this is not the case. Most people do not know how to switch it off... no matter if they are religious or atheist.

    ?? ***? When did he do this??


    In theory, we are all one and in practice, in meditation, we experience that. Practice makes it a reality for the individual who follows the theory. (If this is not the case for you, then you haven't practiced.)
     
  10. Caspian

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    One point for clarification. What do u mean by ego? Ego as in egotistical? Because i think many atheists are far from egotistical :p especially anyone who also recognizes themself as humanist. But this is a point were going to have to agree to disagree on because inorder for me to prove I have no ego (lol or less ego then u think I do) I would have to pick up an ego to do it.

    Lol in otherwords. How humble can a man be who argues that he is indeed humble :p. So this point ill concede to you by default if you want to take it the ego route. Perhaps my ego is in the way of me seeing god—its too bad he would put it right there between me and him then :p
     
  11. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Show me where Guru Nanak said that there is no Hindu and there is no muslim?
    Exact ang No.of Guru granth Sahib
     
  12. Caspian

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    Show me where in the guru granth sahib it says we must keep the 5 K'S?

    (I think that would be a perfect place for me to begin reading the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

    Now about the quote: I know that quote I singled out isnt in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Its just one of those stories you choose to take on basis of faith. To me it doesnt matter if he said it or if he didnt say it because the interpretation I draw from it is one that is not normally drawn from it :p (the humanist interpretation). Having said that, I really do wish more sikhs would question these stories (all stories) the way you did so good on you for calling me out. I still think its a nice line ;) and for wat its worth, most sikhs are willing to believe Nanak said it, that's why I use it.

    But if it happens to be the case that you cannot find a SGGS justification for the 5K's in the same way I cant find the line attributed to Nanak. Can we be even handed and just question everything outside the SGGS? Why not?
     
  13. mannii

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    Thank you so much Ambarsaria, your information was very useful and impressive! It answered my question.kudihug
    Could I please ask other members posting if they could please keep to the topic and stop fighting :happykaur::swordfight-kudiyan: Your posts are interesting and helpful but it makes me upset whe people quarrel.... we are meant to be working together! <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
     
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  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    mannii ji

    Understood that it makes you uncomfortable. But some people like to debate -- and in fact -- when things are too smooth and easy, that makes them uncomfortable. So the world turns and so is the nature of the human beast. We will keep an eye on things to make sure there is no abuse, but debate is the life of a forum. :happykaur:
     
  15. Ambarsaria

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    kds1980 ji in a dialog/discussion it is great to challenge people. What does not hurt the cause either is if one cites something which may be similar, say in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, like everyone is equal or made of same, no one is foe-friend, etc., these indirectly imply and actually support that all are equal or same in the eyes of the creator. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji does not put people down or put others on a pedestal but what it does do is expose poor or mis-leading belief structures regardless of religion or affiliation. It is there for one to learn to become better.

    I will like you to quote some in the context if possible of the above. Right now I am not very familiar with Gurbani searches but I do review Professor Sahib Singh ji's Guru Granth Darpan and make things out eventually.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  16. a.mother

    a.mother Canada
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    mannii ji, I am agree with you. I am too feeling very uncomfortable for SOME posts. This was a nice topic for us to know deeply BUT looks like this is going some different direction now. I think for this reason we need another thread for the this topic (I mean hindu,muslim,sikh and athiest)

    Ambarsaria ji have given us proper info many thanks to him.
     
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  17. a.mother

    a.mother Canada
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    And for Gurbani we cann't take one line and mean it. What I know (little) we need full paragraph to under stand the complete meaning of gurusahib ji's saying. Other wise as we mostly know about Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji time sakhi where they teach someone about the line "LEKHA KOI NA PUCHHAYII JA HAR BAKHSHANDA"( pauri maaru mahalla 5 dakhne). Sorry but we cann't twist the mean of Gurbani as we want or we think. For the meaning of Gurbani we need to DIP in.
     
  18. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    kds1980 ji if you can read Punjabi I will highly recommend reading Professor Sahib Singh ji's exposition of Bhagat Kabir ji's bani in Guru Granth Darpan. Incredible insights are provided by him. The following is much abridged given the medium of the forum.

    Guru Nanak Dev ji had Bhagat Kabir ji's bani with him. With the inclusion of such shabads later in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji was an expression of our Gurus where they felt enough was stated and clearly that other Shabads were not needed. In a way Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is a cohesive treatise and not a divisive. You don't need to read what a certain Guru said or if a certain Guru said something about something, as one will never get the essence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as per Professor Sahib Singh ji too in his preambles.

    Enjoy the following sung by a Muslim (Alam Lohar), written by a traditional Hindu (Bhagat Kabir ji) and part of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (Sikh).

    Awal Allah Noor Upaya - Kalam Baba Bahgat Kabir ji - Alam Lohar (Audio)

    ਪਰ੍ਭਾਤੀ॥ਅਵਿਲਅਲਹਨੂਰੁਉਪਾਇਆਕੁਦਰਿਤਕੇਸਭਬੰਦੇ॥ਏਕਨੂਰਤੇਸਭੁਜਗੁਉਪਿਜਆਕਉਨਭਲੇਕੋਮੰਦੇ॥੧॥ਲੋਗਾਭਰਿਮਨਭੂਲਹੁਭਾਈ॥ਖਾਿਲਕੁਖਲਕਖਲਕਮਿਹਖਾਿਲਕੁਪੂਿਰਰਿਹਓਸਰ੍ਬਠਈ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥ਮਾਟੀਏਕਅਨੇਕਭਿਤਕਿਰਸਾਜੀਸਾਜਨਹਾਰੈ॥ਨਾਕਛੁਪੋਚਮਾਟੀਕੇਭਡੇਨਾਕਛੁਪੋਚਕੁੰਭਾਰੈ॥੨॥ਸਭਮਿਹਸਚਾਏਕੋਸੋਈਿਤਸਕਾਕੀਆਸਭੁਕਛੁਹੋਈ॥ਹੁਕਮੁਪਛਾਨੈਸੁਏਕੋਜਾਨੈਬੰਦਾਕਹੀਐਸੋਈ॥੩॥ਅਲਹੁਅਲਖੁਨਜਾਈਲਿਖਆਗੁਿਰਗੁੜੁਦੀਨਾਮੀਠਾ॥ਕਿਹਕਬੀਰਮੇਰੀਸੰਕਾਨਾਸੀਸਰਬਿਨਰੰਜਨੁਡੀਠਾ॥੪॥੩॥{ਪੰਨਾ 1349-1350}

    ArQ:- hy loko! hy BweI! (r`b dI hsqI bwry) iksy BulyKy ivc pY ky ^uAwr nwh hovo [ auh r`b swrI ^lkq ƒ pYdw krn vwlw hY qy swrI ^lkq ivc mOjUd hY, auh sB QW BrpUr hY

    People, don’t be lost and be miserable understanding God. It is God that created everything and is in everything and in completeness.

    [1[rhwau[
    sB qoN pihlW ^udw dw nUr hI hY ijs ny (jgq) pYdw kIqw hY, ieh swry jIA-jMq r`b dI kudrq dy hI bxwey hoey hn [ iek pRBU dI hI joq qoN swrw jgq pYdw hoieAw hY [ (qW iPr iksy jwq mzhb dy BulyKy ivc pY ky) iksy ƒ cMgw qy iksy ƒ mMdw nwh smJo [1[ isrjnhwr ny ie`ko hI im`tI qoN (Bwv, ie`ko ijhy hI q`qW qoN) AnykW iksmW dyu jIAw-jMq pYdw kr id`qy hn [ (ij`QoN qk jIvW dy Asly dw sMbMD hY) nwh iehnW im`tI dy BWifAW (Bwv, jIvW) ivc koeI aUxqw hY, qy nwh (iehnW BWifAW dy bxwx vwly) GuimAwr ivc [2[ auh sdw kwiem rihx vwlw pRBU sB jIvW ivc v`sdw hY [ jo kuJ jgq ivc ho irhw hY, ausy dw kIqw ho irhw hY [ auhI mnu`K r`b dw (ipAwrw) bMdw ikhw jw skdw hY, jo aus dI rzw ƒ pCwxdw hY qy aus iek nwl sWJ pWdw hY [3[ auh r`b AYsw hY ijs dw mukMml srUp ibAwn qoN pry hY, aus dy gux khy nhIN jw skdy [ kbIr AwKdw hY—myry gurU ny (pRBU dy guxW dI sUJ-rUp) im`Tw guV mYƒ id`qw hY (ijs dw suAwd qW mYN nhIN d`s skdw, pr) mYN aus mwieAw rihq pRBU ƒ hr QW vyK ilAw hY, mYƒ ies ivc koeI S`k nhIN irhw (myrw AMdr iksy jwq jW mzhb dy bMidAW dI au~cqw jW nIcqw dw krm nhIN irhw) [4[3[

    First of all, it is one essence of God which created the universe, all living beings have been created by God’s nature. It is all from the essence of God. Don’t understand other to be good or bad. God has created many varieties of life from the same essence. Neither there is something deficient in the creation nor the creator. The ever lasting God is present in all life. What is happening in this universe is in concert with God’s doing. A person can be called in God’s love, who recognizes God’s will and works with the same. God is such that it is not possible to provide complete description, the goodness cannot be stated. Kabir says, the indescribable sweetness of God’s qualities I have received, I see the possession free God everywhere and I have no doubts.

    Sbd dw Bwv:- srb-ivAwpk pRBU hI swry jIvW dw isrjxhwr hY [ sB dw Aslw ieko hY, iksy ƒ mMdw nwh AwKo [

    God the creator of all is the maker of all life. Everything is from one essence, don’t call anyone bad.





    YouTube - Awal Allah Noor Upaya - Kalam Baba Bahgat Kabir ji - Alam Lohar (Audio)

    ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਕੁ ਨ ਿਨੰਦੀਐ ਖਾਕੂ ਜੇਡੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਜੀਵਿਦਆ ਪੈਰਾ ਤਲੈ ਮੁਇਆ ਉਪਿਰ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੭॥
    {ਪੰਨਾ 1378}
    ArQ:- hy PrId! im`tI ƒ mwVw nhIN AwKxw cwhIdw, im`tI dI brwbrI koeI nhIN kr skdw[ (mnu`K dy) pYrW hyT huMdI hY, (pr mnu`K dy) mirAW aus dy au~qy ho jWdI hY, (iesy qrHW ‘ZrIbI-suBwv’ dI rIs nhIN ho skdI, ‘ZrIbI-suBwv’ vwlw bMdw izMdgI ivc BwvyN sB dI vDIkI shwrdw hY, pr mn ƒ mwrn krky Awqmk AvsQw ivc auh sB qoN au~cw huMdw hY)

    Farid ji says, don't say bad about dirt/soil, nothing equals soil/dirt. While you are alive it is below but on your death it is above you.
    (Essence: One with humility might suffer from others misdeeds but with this quality his mind is higher than all such.)


    Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan - Turia Turia Ja Farida


    YouTube - Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan - Turia Turia Ja Farida
    The above written by considered traditional Muslim, Baba Farid ji and sung by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan (Muslim) with parts from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (Sikh) as cited above,

    It is in each one of us to rise, float or sink with this wisdom and use, mis-use or abuse at our own peril.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #17 Ambarsaria, Feb 25, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  19. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    ^^^^ That's ego.
    You felt threatened/offended by what I said and and felt the need to defend/protect something as evident in your reply... that something is the ego... it's very subtle.

    There are of course, varying levels of ego. Normally we associate with the extreme forms, which you thought I was referring to. I'll say it again, often the ego is very subtle, hardly noticeable.

    So now you can go back and make sense of our exchange.
     
  20. spnadmin

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    I need to repeat - that a forum without debates is no longer a forum. We have rules that allow deletions related to insults, abuse, and attacks on the personality of individuals.

    To debate the role of "ego" in all its forms is not abuse, but a legitimate angle to follow in a discussion, in a religion that names Haumei as a primary cause of wickedness and suffering.

    When everyone shies from lively debate then the forum is on its way to becoming a cult of its own. There are forums like that where members are shouted out because of views on Dasam Granth, or they object to describing sikh women as weak-minded. Plenty of examples.

    Our forum's demographics show that the majority of our members are here to weigh points of view. So there is no way they will settle for baby food. We pay a price for the opportunity to debate. Sometimes we become irritated.

    Remember the film the Stepford Wives. We don't want to go in that direction even if it is more "relaxing" some of the time, for some of us.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_of_the_Stepford_Wives
     
  21. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    CHALLENGE:


    • Affecting Spirituality and behavior
      • Kam .... (Lust)
      • Karodh .... (Anger)
      • Lobh .... (Jealousy)
      • Moh .... (Love)
      • Hankar .... (Ego)
    • Show me a person claiming "Zero" of the above
      • I will show you a fool!
    • Show me a person planning to reduce these to "Zero"
      • I will show you a fool again!
    You may not be born with it. I don't know about genetics influence and disposition to these.

    However, once these are started as a mental process from consciousness onwards, cannot be reduced to zero till the point of death or in un-consciousness.

    The best one can do is find and manage these in healthy balance. As each one of these is Evil-Good duality depending on the intent of how these are exercised in a given instant. These can be Evil. These can be Good.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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