The quote you gave about Krishan clearly says that it was attributed to GOD, not Krishna who shows promiscuous behavior in Bindravan regardless of the spellings.
The pauri precisely states that the God was in the form of Krishna who is recognized in Gurbani as an avataar (manifestation/incarnation/ descending of the God to earth) for that particular age. Can their be any disagreement? We know that Gurbani also corrects that all the major Hindu devas fell into Maya. I agree with you completely, that when Krishna as an avtar spoke from God-consciousness in Bhagavad-Gita it was not as personality of Krishna. But Gurbani clearly states that:
[/FONT] As a Gursikh Bhain ji, you understand that Akaalpurakh(GOD) is known as inexpressible. In the past people explained HIM but couldn’t due to HIS infinite nature. This idea is very dominant in Jap Ji. Strictly defining HIM, Guru ji expresses HIS being “only one reality from the beginning to forever (eternal Truth), beyond birth and death that makes it very clear that HIS being in incarnation as an individual is impossible. Now come to other form about which Gurbani states. It is known as “sargun” form. In simple words HE is every where. Question rises, how HE can be in form when HE is beyond “birth” Take a deep breath and think, “how is it possible?” Guru Answers it” kehna kathn n jayee”(He cannot be expressed). If so, why even Guru ji trying to express? If we converse with astronaut about all cosmos, planets and galaxies, he/she just tries to interpret what is known and leave his/her lame answer with a tag” we have to find more, there is lot up there”. Guru ji shares what he could express but also warn us about a fact of HIS infinity. “sargun” form is through which He is experienced. In simple words” within ourselves and in others””tu bharpoor janya me dur( I thought- it was my limited understanding- that you are far away but I found you very close, every where). So calling any one God as per Guru declaration is a betrayal to HIM, respecting all His expressions or sargun form is honor to Him. Avtar, literally means to take birth, some are just stuck with the word and think, its meaning is not to take birth but Prophet since HE himself came through these Avtaras. If HE comes through them and is taken over by Maya, lust etc, what is the difference between others and Him, now he is seen(like Krishna) also involved like others in Maya. Gurbani says who involves in HIM totally becomes like HIM(GGS Ji 397 Asa Mehla 5). Question rises if He is already there then why only by getting involved in Him one can become like HIM. Answer is very simple. The person totally lost in HIM becomes different from others as HE is, but in a body that person represents Him as completely indifferent to Maya. In this context Guru ji becomes like HIM but Guru ji is not avtar like Krishna who involves in promiscuous activities. Guru ji is one through whom HE is seen. If Krishna is sargun form, so you are, and Babas, Sant, other cult leaders. Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya, that is not the case with either Ram( who sends away his wife to Jungle just because a washer man says” I am not like Ram, I shall keep a woman who lived in another mans’ house for that long”, Krishna keeps satisfying his promiscuous urges with ladies. For Sikhs, they are revered Devtas of Hindus and we respect that, it is O.K. but they cannot be inspiration for Sikhs. I strongly say, regardless of their references, even as Sargun form of HIM, they are not helpful as most of His other sargun form is not. This idea to make any kind of link to our Guru ji or Gurbachan is silly and uncalled for.
ਆਪੇਗੋਪੀਕਾਨੁਹੈਪਿਆਰਾਬਨਿਆਪੇਗਊਚਰਾਹਾ॥
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.
ਆਪੇਸਾਵਲਸੁੰਦਰਾਪਿਆਰਾਆਪੇਵੰਸੁਵਜਾਹਾ॥
aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.
ਕੁਵਲੀਆਪੀੜੁਆਪਿਮਰਾਇਦਾਪਿਆਰਾਕਰਿਬਾਲਕਰੂਪਿਪਚਾਹਾ॥੨॥
kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||
Only His Sargun sroop is expressed in the above quote just as “ ghat ghat riha smaee, nothing more. Why even you are quoting it.
. But even Gurbani clearly states in many pauris that vaishnav bhagkti and bhairaag are the way to approach the Supreme.
Bhain ji, I suspect here confusion. There is only one way as per Guru Vaak I quoted yesterday, without Guru Shabad, there is no other way, I am not even interested in this kind of thing to enrich my knowledge, its silly.
Clearly there are elements of truth and profound symbolism behind these alleged "stories" which relate to the very nature of Sikh theology.
[/FONT] Bhain ji what is the symbol behind cutting head of Ravan? Guru ji in that context simply saying it is all HIS Ordinance, period. What is the symbol of “rang”(enjoyment) in Bindravan? Simply Guru ji is saying the the guy was enjoying with the ladies. What is the symbol behind” Ram roya…(Cry)” Guru ji simply saying Ram even couldn’t understand Ordinance of God, he was crying like every body over wife and brother. Just see above, all credit is given to HIM instead of any mortal. If that much immense love you harbor in your heart for HIM, only then you will get over the illusions of Sargun Sroop Avtar or Devta thing. Let me put another example to clear why I do not want to give any importance to them in context of Gumat. Assume you are sitting in a Bus chartered for Dasm Duar. While sitting, you pay attention to all around Maya temptations and exceptional leaders and others who are attracting you. Bus goes on if you don’t pay attention to other than your Guru advice and HIM; however, it has to stop if you desire to check out all attractive Maya Sroop. Walking on Guru Panth and keeping nostalgia for ancient wisdom (which actually was used to corrupt the society for centuries) will not lead you any where, for academic boasting, it sounds nice.. Single-minded attention is not achieved by paying so much significance to all that which as per Guru couldn’t even helpful to achieve Him.
I object to the assumption that anything in Gurbani is intrinsically devoid of reality or
[/FONT] symbolically untrue or mere historic curiosity simply because we do not understand. I am of the conviction that entire Gurbani is revealed, Divine, and supernatural truth which penetrates mysteries of the nirgun and sargun aspects of the Parabrahm Vaheguru. Gurbani brings into sansaaric realm hyperdimensional realities even beyond comprehension of a human brain. We do our best to understand, but Guru perceives what we cannot. And so I show respect for entire Gurbani as Living, true and real, even what I cannot grasp.
You are displaying confused ideas about people who are in disagreement with you. We just want to stick to our Guru, why you are throwing others on us as His Sargun Sroop to give any consideration. For me, past sargun sroop of GOD is dead, better it is dead, just because Guru ji tried take people to the Main Source, Hindus became enemy of Guru ji and you are telling us to reconsider those so called Avtar. There is book in Punjabi, published by SGPC written by Sankrit genius pandit who converted to Sikhism, he openly says that Sikhs should only follow Guru Granth Sahib Ji and there is nothing to learn from Vedas, puranas or other Devtas. The ones who themselves were intoxicated by Maya, what would they teach us. I shall give you name of the writer; it is with me sitting some where in my book selection. Vedic Aryans were deeply involved in human sacrifices and obscenity( Naramedhayaana Yujar Veda Samita, check out Atharva Veda x7 Please read Dr. Ambedkar on this ancient Vedas,) your eyes will be opened regarding Veda Wisdom.
Descriptions of the Mahadevas are not said to be mythology, but reality. I would find it completely offensive as a Sikh, if a Hindu was posting that stories of Guru in Gurbani were all legends and untrue. It would be showing the heighth of disrespect for our sentiments. And for this reason I request that the title be changed to something less dismissive and disrespectful to:"Hindu symbolism"
First of all, I already wrote above, Hindu Symbolism is not all we discuss about Hinduism. If they say our Janamsakhi are mythology, I wouldn’t feel offended. We are not interested to dig down if those were Historical or not. Every thing referred in GGS Ji is not verified by Guru ji as Historical. Guru ji referred about Yugas but concludes that only that time is good when His Nam Simran is done. Please don’t bring now Yuga discussion, I just refer it as references Guru ji gave but has not specifically verified as Historical truth about them.
Ham Hindu Nahin" The damage is done. I feel more damage doers are those who keep making link with all this stuff. Their argument is" Why it is there?" There are other references are too. But they dont listen. Even Bhagatas wrote against this, read a shabad by Namdev who directly talks about these stories. But they are programmed.and wont listen and realize the reality Then Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh ji are directly related to Hindu stories- characters. Were they real? Or myth? It is not our problem to check it out.
Just because elements of Vaishnav philosophy exist in Gurbani doesn't make Sikhism into Hinduism, that is a political construct to deny independance and nationhood. Apart
[/FONT] from the political sphere, how can anything written in Gurbani be disregarded as "not for us" or as "myth and untrue?"
You once wrote splitting hair; actually you are very good at it. When I say, they are not for us, I just meant they are not promoted by Gurbani as something to enlighten our minds. About myth, I wrote before how this word is justified to be used with some imaginative events, but you keep saying it is true, so it be, please save my time from answering the same thing again and again. There is no element of any thing in Gurbani, it’s revealed,( You admit that) if it resembles with some thing, so what!
If it is in Gurbani, there is a deep meaning for us to perceive. For example, how many threads and discussions have centered around, "Are the Guru's (One Jyot) God? And theologically we can't even begin to understand this if we disregard the pauris relating to traditional Vaishnav philosophy of Avtaars and the Primal absolute (nirgun and sargun Parabrahm). To eliminate this point of the Gurbani because you think it "makes Sikhs into Hindus" renders the Sikh community incapable of understanding the nature of Guru, was He 10 bodies of men, or God the Uncreated, or God-conscious avatar?
Bhain in Punjab, if they listen to your praise about Devtas, Vedas< mahadeva, Krishnas, they will start going to Mandir again. Hinduas will love you to promote their agenda” Sikhism is off shoot of Hindu” Today, many of the Sikhs( Save for Amritdharis, if I am right but not sure) worship Devis for quick rewards( thanks to those Sikhs who have Hindu hang over)This is the way your views appear, a complete devoted Hindu who just happen to be a Sikh. I wonder, after learning so much, why you are so adamant about this fact. You were so much intoxicated with these views that you said” Japji is not totality of Gurbani” Calling Krishan as incarnation of God, being praised by Gurus as Avtars( Gurbani means Gurus). It doesn’t show that you have clear mind for Nanak panth. I smell from your behavior Bhain ji, old Mahant group who were half Hindu and Half Sikh, technically confused guys. Please don’t take it as I am saying to you, only your views are my target.
Clearly He was not the physical body, so we do not worship His manhood like an idol. Clearly He was not the Uncreated Parabrahm. And just as clearly, He was a Divine being descended into the sansaara who could speak from God-consciousness. And this explains the Divine nature of the shabad. It comes from higher dimensional realm of reality. And the thing is, to discuss concepts from higher levels of reality, the human brain is insufficient to digest. That is why symbolic mathematical physics is required to grasp and comprehend the superior dimensional realities. So we know from science that symbolism, and mythology are used to explain profoundly deep truths which are counterintuitive to the human intellect. This is why I cannot dismiss outright any story, however outlandish, without analyzing what the symbolism must be. For example:
ਜਹਦੇਖਾਤਹਰਵਿਰਹੇਸਿਵਸਕਤੀਕਾਮੇਲੁ॥
jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael ||
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of
[/FONT] consciousness and matter.
Do you mean Shiv Shakti is any thing to do with Shiv ji? If yes, please reconsider translation, it is horrible. I would recommend you not to quote Gurbani because everytime I read it, I feel stunned to see what happened to Gurbani understanding. Waheguru ang sang! I recommend you to ignore Sant Singh Khalsa and use Manmohan Singh, is better than him to understand if not perfect.
ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁਗੁਣਬੰਧੀਦੇਹੁਰੀਜੋਆਇਆਜਗਿਸੋਖੇਲੁ॥
thrihu gun bandhhee dhaehuree jo aaeiaa jag so khael ||
The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.
~SGGS Ji p. 21
As the above passage describes duality, how the opposition of energy fields is necessary to express material experience, it shows how there would be no foundation of matter without duality. There would be no material existence. Shiva and Shakti represent symbolic dimensional structure but also conscious aliveness at the heart of matter. Conscious energy. God is conscious in the energy. We can't make artificial divisions based in dualistic misunderstanding that Shiv is NOT Parabrahm, and therefore not God. In this aspect, both Shiva and Shakti are derivitives of the One generative potential. The Parabrahm is manifest in the creation by the conscious awareness of Shiva and Shakti pervading within it. This is only the dimensional unfolding of how creation works. And it's not mythology. It's symbolic of real processes which can be explained by science.
I already commented on it, you are singing the same tune, known as mixing up
Look at the Gurbani again:
ਉਛਲਿਆਕਾਮੁਕਾਲਮਤਿਲਾਗੀਤਉਆਨਿਸਕਤਿਗਲਿਬਾਂਧਿਆ॥੨॥
oushhaliaa kaam kaal math laagee tho aan sakath gal baandhhiaa ||2||
You are overflowing with sexual desire, and your intellect is stained with darkness; you are held in the grip of Shakti's power. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 93
So we shouldn't be offended by these kinds of references.
What other word Guru ji should have used to express Lust? Krishna’s acts were promiscuous, lust(KAAM) is very appropriate, how can you even compare it with Krishna act in context of offending any one. Some time too much knowledge leads to confusion, it is still time to follow nothing but Guru’s shown path to be worthy of HIM.
They are illustrating for us the nature of material existence and explaining the weaknesses at the core of our being which are related to existence in sansaaric world and human nature. The goal of course is how to transcend these limitations and bondage. Jesus is like an avatar which has some parallel to Krishna (Krystos-Christ)
You are saying that? I am surprised, comparing Jesus with Maya ridden Krishna!!!
.
And do living things evolve over the God. But because truth never contradicts, those elements which were truth in past ages don't become untruths in this one.
You have read them, you have found them very useful, congratulation, for me, all are just mere references, it will be wastage my time in studying Vedas and others you call ancient truth. Here understanding of Gurbani as per true Guru message,
[/FONT] seems hard, and you are talking about other books. All the same, you call Gurbani perfect, that idea of yours erases other books significance. In simple language, contradiction, see the zigzag” They are good ancient wisdom but Gurbani is better, means stick to better.” Guess what Bhain ji? I agree hundred percent
quot However, Gurbani aslo states the the infinite Supreme Parabrahm manifested Himself in the creation, in the Hindu devas, and in all that is.
Yes Bhain ji, but they are just as you are and I am and the rest of world as His Sargun Form, nothing more than that, Gurmat stops here, never cares to verify their Historical facts, does not advocate that they were of any significance in context of " spiritual goal", obviously who drowns whom he/she can save?
The pauri precisely states that the God was in the form of Krishna who is recognized in Gurbani as an avataar (manifestation/incarnation/ descending of the God to earth) for that particular age. Can their be any disagreement? We know that Gurbani also corrects that all the major Hindu devas fell into Maya. I agree with you completely, that when Krishna as an avtar spoke from God-consciousness in Bhagavad-Gita it was not as personality of Krishna. But Gurbani clearly states that:
[/FONT] As a Gursikh Bhain ji, you understand that Akaalpurakh(GOD) is known as inexpressible. In the past people explained HIM but couldn’t due to HIS infinite nature. This idea is very dominant in Jap Ji. Strictly defining HIM, Guru ji expresses HIS being “only one reality from the beginning to forever (eternal Truth), beyond birth and death that makes it very clear that HIS being in incarnation as an individual is impossible. Now come to other form about which Gurbani states. It is known as “sargun” form. In simple words HE is every where. Question rises, how HE can be in form when HE is beyond “birth” Take a deep breath and think, “how is it possible?” Guru Answers it” kehna kathn n jayee”(He cannot be expressed). If so, why even Guru ji trying to express? If we converse with astronaut about all cosmos, planets and galaxies, he/she just tries to interpret what is known and leave his/her lame answer with a tag” we have to find more, there is lot up there”. Guru ji shares what he could express but also warn us about a fact of HIS infinity. “sargun” form is through which He is experienced. In simple words” within ourselves and in others””tu bharpoor janya me dur( I thought- it was my limited understanding- that you are far away but I found you very close, every where). So calling any one God as per Guru declaration is a betrayal to HIM, respecting all His expressions or sargun form is honor to Him. Avtar, literally means to take birth, some are just stuck with the word and think, its meaning is not to take birth but Prophet since HE himself came through these Avtaras. If HE comes through them and is taken over by Maya, lust etc, what is the difference between others and Him, now he is seen(like Krishna) also involved like others in Maya. Gurbani says who involves in HIM totally becomes like HIM(GGS Ji 397 Asa Mehla 5). Question rises if He is already there then why only by getting involved in Him one can become like HIM. Answer is very simple. The person totally lost in HIM becomes different from others as HE is, but in a body that person represents Him as completely indifferent to Maya. In this context Guru ji becomes like HIM but Guru ji is not avtar like Krishna who involves in promiscuous activities. Guru ji is one through whom HE is seen. If Krishna is sargun form, so you are, and Babas, Sant, other cult leaders. Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya, that is not the case with either Ram( who sends away his wife to Jungle just because a washer man says” I am not like Ram, I shall keep a woman who lived in another mans’ house for that long”, Krishna keeps satisfying his promiscuous urges with ladies. For Sikhs, they are revered Devtas of Hindus and we respect that, it is O.K. but they cannot be inspiration for Sikhs. I strongly say, regardless of their references, even as Sargun form of HIM, they are not helpful as most of His other sargun form is not. This idea to make any kind of link to our Guru ji or Gurbachan is silly and uncalled for.
ਆਪੇਗੋਪੀਕਾਨੁਹੈਪਿਆਰਾਬਨਿਆਪੇਗਊਚਰਾਹਾ॥
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.
ਆਪੇਸਾਵਲਸੁੰਦਰਾਪਿਆਰਾਆਪੇਵੰਸੁਵਜਾਹਾ॥
aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.
ਕੁਵਲੀਆਪੀੜੁਆਪਿਮਰਾਇਦਾਪਿਆਰਾਕਰਿਬਾਲਕਰੂਪਿਪਚਾਹਾ॥੨॥
kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||
Only His Sargun sroop is expressed in the above quote just as “ ghat ghat riha smaee, nothing more. Why even you are quoting it.
. But even Gurbani clearly states in many pauris that vaishnav bhagkti and bhairaag are the way to approach the Supreme.
Bhain ji, I suspect here confusion. There is only one way as per Guru Vaak I quoted yesterday, without Guru Shabad, there is no other way, I am not even interested in this kind of thing to enrich my knowledge, its silly.
Clearly there are elements of truth and profound symbolism behind these alleged "stories" which relate to the very nature of Sikh theology.
[/FONT] Bhain ji what is the symbol behind cutting head of Ravan? Guru ji in that context simply saying it is all HIS Ordinance, period. What is the symbol of “rang”(enjoyment) in Bindravan? Simply Guru ji is saying the the guy was enjoying with the ladies. What is the symbol behind” Ram roya…(Cry)” Guru ji simply saying Ram even couldn’t understand Ordinance of God, he was crying like every body over wife and brother. Just see above, all credit is given to HIM instead of any mortal. If that much immense love you harbor in your heart for HIM, only then you will get over the illusions of Sargun Sroop Avtar or Devta thing. Let me put another example to clear why I do not want to give any importance to them in context of Gumat. Assume you are sitting in a Bus chartered for Dasm Duar. While sitting, you pay attention to all around Maya temptations and exceptional leaders and others who are attracting you. Bus goes on if you don’t pay attention to other than your Guru advice and HIM; however, it has to stop if you desire to check out all attractive Maya Sroop. Walking on Guru Panth and keeping nostalgia for ancient wisdom (which actually was used to corrupt the society for centuries) will not lead you any where, for academic boasting, it sounds nice.. Single-minded attention is not achieved by paying so much significance to all that which as per Guru couldn’t even helpful to achieve Him.
I object to the assumption that anything in Gurbani is intrinsically devoid of reality or
[/FONT] symbolically untrue or mere historic curiosity simply because we do not understand. I am of the conviction that entire Gurbani is revealed, Divine, and supernatural truth which penetrates mysteries of the nirgun and sargun aspects of the Parabrahm Vaheguru. Gurbani brings into sansaaric realm hyperdimensional realities even beyond comprehension of a human brain. We do our best to understand, but Guru perceives what we cannot. And so I show respect for entire Gurbani as Living, true and real, even what I cannot grasp.
You are displaying confused ideas about people who are in disagreement with you. We just want to stick to our Guru, why you are throwing others on us as His Sargun Sroop to give any consideration. For me, past sargun sroop of GOD is dead, better it is dead, just because Guru ji tried take people to the Main Source, Hindus became enemy of Guru ji and you are telling us to reconsider those so called Avtar. There is book in Punjabi, published by SGPC written by Sankrit genius pandit who converted to Sikhism, he openly says that Sikhs should only follow Guru Granth Sahib Ji and there is nothing to learn from Vedas, puranas or other Devtas. The ones who themselves were intoxicated by Maya, what would they teach us. I shall give you name of the writer; it is with me sitting some where in my book selection. Vedic Aryans were deeply involved in human sacrifices and obscenity( Naramedhayaana Yujar Veda Samita, check out Atharva Veda x7 Please read Dr. Ambedkar on this ancient Vedas,) your eyes will be opened regarding Veda Wisdom.
Descriptions of the Mahadevas are not said to be mythology, but reality. I would find it completely offensive as a Sikh, if a Hindu was posting that stories of Guru in Gurbani were all legends and untrue. It would be showing the heighth of disrespect for our sentiments. And for this reason I request that the title be changed to something less dismissive and disrespectful to:"Hindu symbolism"
First of all, I already wrote above, Hindu Symbolism is not all we discuss about Hinduism. If they say our Janamsakhi are mythology, I wouldn’t feel offended. We are not interested to dig down if those were Historical or not. Every thing referred in GGS Ji is not verified by Guru ji as Historical. Guru ji referred about Yugas but concludes that only that time is good when His Nam Simran is done. Please don’t bring now Yuga discussion, I just refer it as references Guru ji gave but has not specifically verified as Historical truth about them.
Ham Hindu Nahin" The damage is done. I feel more damage doers are those who keep making link with all this stuff. Their argument is" Why it is there?" There are other references are too. But they dont listen. Even Bhagatas wrote against this, read a shabad by Namdev who directly talks about these stories. But they are programmed.and wont listen and realize the reality Then Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh ji are directly related to Hindu stories- characters. Were they real? Or myth? It is not our problem to check it out.
Just because elements of Vaishnav philosophy exist in Gurbani doesn't make Sikhism into Hinduism, that is a political construct to deny independance and nationhood. Apart
[/FONT] from the political sphere, how can anything written in Gurbani be disregarded as "not for us" or as "myth and untrue?"
You once wrote splitting hair; actually you are very good at it. When I say, they are not for us, I just meant they are not promoted by Gurbani as something to enlighten our minds. About myth, I wrote before how this word is justified to be used with some imaginative events, but you keep saying it is true, so it be, please save my time from answering the same thing again and again. There is no element of any thing in Gurbani, it’s revealed,( You admit that) if it resembles with some thing, so what!
If it is in Gurbani, there is a deep meaning for us to perceive. For example, how many threads and discussions have centered around, "Are the Guru's (One Jyot) God? And theologically we can't even begin to understand this if we disregard the pauris relating to traditional Vaishnav philosophy of Avtaars and the Primal absolute (nirgun and sargun Parabrahm). To eliminate this point of the Gurbani because you think it "makes Sikhs into Hindus" renders the Sikh community incapable of understanding the nature of Guru, was He 10 bodies of men, or God the Uncreated, or God-conscious avatar?
Bhain in Punjab, if they listen to your praise about Devtas, Vedas< mahadeva, Krishnas, they will start going to Mandir again. Hinduas will love you to promote their agenda” Sikhism is off shoot of Hindu” Today, many of the Sikhs( Save for Amritdharis, if I am right but not sure) worship Devis for quick rewards( thanks to those Sikhs who have Hindu hang over)This is the way your views appear, a complete devoted Hindu who just happen to be a Sikh. I wonder, after learning so much, why you are so adamant about this fact. You were so much intoxicated with these views that you said” Japji is not totality of Gurbani” Calling Krishan as incarnation of God, being praised by Gurus as Avtars( Gurbani means Gurus). It doesn’t show that you have clear mind for Nanak panth. I smell from your behavior Bhain ji, old Mahant group who were half Hindu and Half Sikh, technically confused guys. Please don’t take it as I am saying to you, only your views are my target.
Clearly He was not the physical body, so we do not worship His manhood like an idol. Clearly He was not the Uncreated Parabrahm. And just as clearly, He was a Divine being descended into the sansaara who could speak from God-consciousness. And this explains the Divine nature of the shabad. It comes from higher dimensional realm of reality. And the thing is, to discuss concepts from higher levels of reality, the human brain is insufficient to digest. That is why symbolic mathematical physics is required to grasp and comprehend the superior dimensional realities. So we know from science that symbolism, and mythology are used to explain profoundly deep truths which are counterintuitive to the human intellect. This is why I cannot dismiss outright any story, however outlandish, without analyzing what the symbolism must be. For example:
ਜਹਦੇਖਾਤਹਰਵਿਰਹੇਸਿਵਸਕਤੀਕਾਮੇਲੁ॥
jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael ||
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of
[/FONT] consciousness and matter.
Do you mean Shiv Shakti is any thing to do with Shiv ji? If yes, please reconsider translation, it is horrible. I would recommend you not to quote Gurbani because everytime I read it, I feel stunned to see what happened to Gurbani understanding. Waheguru ang sang! I recommend you to ignore Sant Singh Khalsa and use Manmohan Singh, is better than him to understand if not perfect.
ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁਗੁਣਬੰਧੀਦੇਹੁਰੀਜੋਆਇਆਜਗਿਸੋਖੇਲੁ॥
thrihu gun bandhhee dhaehuree jo aaeiaa jag so khael ||
The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.
~SGGS Ji p. 21
As the above passage describes duality, how the opposition of energy fields is necessary to express material experience, it shows how there would be no foundation of matter without duality. There would be no material existence. Shiva and Shakti represent symbolic dimensional structure but also conscious aliveness at the heart of matter. Conscious energy. God is conscious in the energy. We can't make artificial divisions based in dualistic misunderstanding that Shiv is NOT Parabrahm, and therefore not God. In this aspect, both Shiva and Shakti are derivitives of the One generative potential. The Parabrahm is manifest in the creation by the conscious awareness of Shiva and Shakti pervading within it. This is only the dimensional unfolding of how creation works. And it's not mythology. It's symbolic of real processes which can be explained by science.
I already commented on it, you are singing the same tune, known as mixing up
Look at the Gurbani again:
ਉਛਲਿਆਕਾਮੁਕਾਲਮਤਿਲਾਗੀਤਉਆਨਿਸਕਤਿਗਲਿਬਾਂਧਿਆ॥੨॥
oushhaliaa kaam kaal math laagee tho aan sakath gal baandhhiaa ||2||
You are overflowing with sexual desire, and your intellect is stained with darkness; you are held in the grip of Shakti's power. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 93
So we shouldn't be offended by these kinds of references.
What other word Guru ji should have used to express Lust? Krishna’s acts were promiscuous, lust(KAAM) is very appropriate, how can you even compare it with Krishna act in context of offending any one. Some time too much knowledge leads to confusion, it is still time to follow nothing but Guru’s shown path to be worthy of HIM.
They are illustrating for us the nature of material existence and explaining the weaknesses at the core of our being which are related to existence in sansaaric world and human nature. The goal of course is how to transcend these limitations and bondage. Jesus is like an avatar which has some parallel to Krishna (Krystos-Christ)
You are saying that? I am surprised, comparing Jesus with Maya ridden Krishna!!!
.
And do living things evolve over the God. But because truth never contradicts, those elements which were truth in past ages don't become untruths in this one.
You have read them, you have found them very useful, congratulation, for me, all are just mere references, it will be wastage my time in studying Vedas and others you call ancient truth. Here understanding of Gurbani as per true Guru message,
[/FONT] seems hard, and you are talking about other books. All the same, you call Gurbani perfect, that idea of yours erases other books significance. In simple language, contradiction, see the zigzag” They are good ancient wisdom but Gurbani is better, means stick to better.” Guess what Bhain ji? I agree hundred percent
quot However, Gurbani aslo states the the infinite Supreme Parabrahm manifested Himself in the creation, in the Hindu devas, and in all that is.
Yes Bhain ji, but they are just as you are and I am and the rest of world as His Sargun Form, nothing more than that, Gurmat stops here, never cares to verify their Historical facts, does not advocate that they were of any significance in context of " spiritual goal", obviously who drowns whom he/she can save?
