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Head of British Sikh Association Attacks Kirpan

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by SukhmeetSingh Guruwada, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. SukhmeetSingh Guruwada

    SukhmeetSingh Guruwada
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    In the original article we stated that Rami Ranger asked for the Kirpan to be dropped as a Kakkar.
    In our correspondences with Mr. Ranger he has clarified that he believes that the Kirpan should not be more than 3 inches (to our understanding be believes this limitation should apply in all situations) and should be dull.
    Thus, Mr. Ranger wants to see the Kirpan relegated to the status of a useless symbol.
    Mr. Ranger states (as seen below) that “It is also a fact that many terrorists resemble us in their appearance, so why give a chance to anyone who may easily mistake us as one of them.”


    Following is the text of the correspondence from Rami Ranger to the SGPC.

    From: Rami Ranger rami@ramiranger.com

    To: sgpc@vsnl.com
    Sent: Monday, 27 August 2012, 12:39
    Subject: RE: Kirpan and safety of Sikhs.

    To, The President of the SGPC,

    Dear Khalsa Ji,

    Gur Fateh.

    In view of the changing world where terrorism has become an integral part of everyday life, we ought to take a fresh look at our religious symbol, the Kirpan.

    In any case, it is now considered to be just a symbol rather than a necessary weapon for our protection as it once was.

    In any case, we are no longer fighting the Mughals.

    The next wars will be fought with the help of science and technology.

    We can see in some part of the world how drone attacks are not providing protection to those who once considered themselves to be invincible.

    Besides, we now live in a civilised world where there is police and the rule of law to protect our liberties along with everyone else in society.

    Regrettably, the Kirpan can no longer provide us defence if the other person is carrying a gun.

    In some cases, the culprit will even be encouraged to use the gun if he sees a person with a Kirpan.

    It is also a fact that many terrorists resemble us in their appearance, so why give a chance to anyone who may easily mistake us as one of them.

    Many of our fellow Sikhs have been the victims of mistaken identity. We cannot sit back and do nothing whilst someone else gets killed.

    We have a responsibility to do something for their sake as well as for the sake of our fellow Sikhs who could also become victims of a mistaken identity unwittingly with dire consequences for their loved ones.

    We must also not provide a spectacle at airports and seaports by standing out by wearing Kirpan.

    It is our duty to make the job of security personnels of securing us and our families easier by not holding them or the rest of the passengers whilst we insist on carrying full size Kirpan.

    You will agree that it is very difficult to change the world but it is relatively easy to change ourselves to adapt to the changing world.

    A species which will survive in the future will not be the most intelligent or the strongest, but one who can adapt to change.

    I believe the time has come for us to adapt to survive by carrying only a 3 inch ceremonial Kirpan as a mark of respect to our Gurus who liberated us after paying supreme sacrifices.

    Our Gurus will understand the situation. Besides, they always advocated that we must live by our actions and deeds rather than rituals.

    Please provide leadership so that we remain a prosperous and progressive community in line with the vision of our Gurus for the entire mankind.

    The Sikhs must move with the times rather than trying to remain the monuments of our past.

    Please do forgive me if my views do not make sense.

    I mean well for our community. I thank you for your understanding.


    Is It Correct.........????
    What You Would Like To Answer Mr. Ranger

    (Source- Sikhnet)
     
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    #1 SukhmeetSingh Guruwada, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2012
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  3. RobinSingh

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    Re: "Head of British Sikh Association Attacks Kirpan"

    and next letter will be for neglecting turban as a part of sikh dress . You know taliban Afghanistan people do also tie turban which resembles to the Sikhs. So to not to mistakenly recognized as talibanis. sikhs should wear small headwrap on their head instead of turbans. then other next letter will be about beard that sikhs and muslims both have flowing beard so sikhs should be allowed to tie beard So that they don't get trapped in any massacre because resembling talibani appearance. This will go on until he fully mixes up sikhs with other world people and killing all things which were given to us by our great gurus for making difference from others.
     
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  4. Chaan Pardesi

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    Re: "Head of British Sikh Association Attacks Kirpan"

    This man is a nutter.He has changed his story from total ban to three inch Kirpan.Maybe we sikhs should ask for his ban within the Sikh panth!May be he should change his colour, becasue he looks middle eastern like the 9/11 terrorists!Hey, it looks like you are the culprit that stole tons of whisky bottles from ASDA and we can see you sharing with your friends!

    I wonder what your grandfather or is it father, Sr Nanak Singh Ji say about you?He was martyred standing out as A Sikh in Lahore in 1947, while defending his faith.You want to eradicate his faith?Shame.
     
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  5. Rory

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    Then why even bother being a Sikh?
     
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  6. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Rory ji,
    There are different ways of looking at it. Some say it's better adapt to changing times whilst keeping the spiritual side of religion as that is the important side.

    Others say, without the "other" side, where you do the rituals and observe the practices, you wouldn't even have the religion in the first place.

    People of both sides can be great Sikhs, and deserve to be called one.
     
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  7. Rory

    Rory
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    You're right. It just catches me out a little sometimes when adaption or compromise is mentioned; I don't think something like a kakkar should be compromised, especially when the only reason for the compromise is external (society). It seems the only trigger for debate about the kirpan is when non-Sikhs have a problem with it.

    You never hear people calling for compromise on the kara, kaccha or kanga. Is it going to be the case where Sikhs are only willing to uphold the tenets that society allows them to?
     
  8. findingmyway

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    I would like to add another perspective for consideration. How can we expect others to have faith in the kakaars when they are freely available? Should there be a system of deserving the right to wear the kirpan? Only then will it stop being a security risk as seen by lay observers.
     
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  9. Inderjeet Kaur

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    A license to carry a kirpan? Without discussing the merits of such an idea, let's look at the practicality. Would only Amritdharis - Khalsa - be entitled? How about those preparing to take Amrit? (Side issue: Is Amrit taken or given?) I suppose it would be possible to be given a kirpan as part of the Amrit ceremony, although that would need a revising of the SRM.

    In practical terms, although my kirpan is on my body 24/7, hardly anyone ever sees it. This is true for most kirpandhari Sikhs, at least outside of India. That would make regulation very difficult.

    Also, another practical consideration is how do you know an Amritdhari Sikh anyway? Because they say they're one?

    Those are my first thoughts on this. I may have more later.

    Next to be considered is the merits of such an idea. For now, I'll leave that to others.
     
  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Most countries have Laws against..."CONCEALED WEAPONS"..........as that concealment shows CRIMINAL INTENT.
    Thus a "concealed" Kirpan invites the above "connotation"... ALL SIKHS should wear the Kirpan over the clothes so its clearly VISIBLE ??? HIDING it is admitting thats its a s private as the Kachera....ONLY the Karra is exposed kakaar !! food for thought ???
     
  11. Joginder Singh Foley

    Joginder Singh Foley United Kingdom
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    Re: "Head of British Sikh Association Attacks Kirpan"

    WJKKWJKF


    And dont forget the beard many muslims have beards too And i am not gonna give up carrying my 12 inch razor sharp kirpan

    :angryyoungsingh::redturban:
     
  12. Joginder Singh Foley

    Joginder Singh Foley United Kingdom
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    Re: "Head of British Sikh Association Attacks Kirpan"

    WJKKWJKF


    I wonder if mr ranger know in the 21st century just how many Armies issue their solders with such things as bayonets and knives and daggers and train them in there use I know the British Army still does from standard infantrymen to special forces like the SAS as does the British Navy and their royal marines. mr ranger should also do some archery with the modern longbows and crossbows made with modern materials more letal than the bows available to Sikhs at the time of the Gurus


    :redturban::noticemunda::angryyoungsingh:
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Re: "Head of British Sikh Association Attacks Kirpan"

    I am SURE Ranger KNOWS and so does every other Tom < D.ick> and >Hairy< KNOWS this FACT very well..but they just bring in this STUPID and BRAINLESS "argument" any way....Kirpans are "old fashioned"..Kesh are Old Fashioned..Kacheras are old fashioned..but they FORGET..their Brains are ANCIENT too...MODERN BRAINS dont think like them...:):):)
     
  14. Luckysingh

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    The real question is
    Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji initiate a kirpan to be carried as 'The Weapon'' at the time, or was it to be worn as a symbol and only a few inches ??
    Then, does anyone know that if his ''own'' kirpan as the kakkar was a few inches or full shastar size ??

    -
    This is where the answer lies as to whether the kirpan is outdated and should be abolished or not.
    We are losing the true meaning of what the blade really represents.
    -It's not something strange or confined to the scope of sikhi only, the blade has a meaning in many cultures of the world.
     
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  15. Inderjeet Kaur

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    Re: "Head of British Sikh Association Attacks Kirpan"

    My blade isn't test long, but mine is sharp and useful, if need be. Guru Gobind Singh ji clearly intended his children to be armed and able to defend themselves and others. Maybe I'm overstepping, but I just can't imagine him approving what is clearly just a symbol.

    I do think we ought to offer all Sikhs the chance to take a class in how to use - and not use - a kirpan. It is a learned skill. It is most important that the Sikh know how to keep an assailant from taking the kirpan from hir and using it against hir.

    :swordfight-kudiyan:

    swordfight​
     
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  16. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Re: "Head of British Sikh Association Attacks Kirpan"

    I'm afraid this is where we have to be careful bhenji, as to not send the wrong message to the younger sikhs.

    The symbolic nature of the kirpan is higher in the sense that it is to be inspirational to a sikh on a daily basis, hence the full time wearing of the article.
    Now, if self defence and ready for battle with darkness or evil was the primary concern for kirpan as kakkar, then I'm sure he would have given us shields and armour to help in these physical aspects.

    Remember that Guru Hargobind Ji had already introduced and signified the two miri and piri long before Guru Gobind ji's time.

    Ghatka, shastar combat and other means are perfectly fine to introduce to the upcoming younger sikhs, but we have to be careful not to let that overlap with their daily wearing of a kirpan that is to inspire their minds and not their hands.

    I myself used to feel differently before with regards to kirpan. I also felt it was more protective and to help conquer any fears ...etc..
    However, after reading some of Guru Gobind Singh ji's heavy and incredible poetry in may parts of the Dasam granth, I realise just what the significance of the khanda and kirpan really are.
     
  17. TigerStyleZ

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    The Kirpan is not the bad thing, it is the human that wears it. And Sikhs, trough history have earned the Kirpan hard, and through History you can see that the Kirpan was never misused by Sikhs.

    The Kirpan stands for righteous, everytime we look at the Kirpan we should remember the righteous in the world. There are even more worse things than Kirpans.. I dont´get why they should be so dangerous? In every household you have chemicals, which you acquiered legally... just mix them up( I am don´t giving instructions how) and you have a (small radius) bomb.. You can make out of everything a weapon.. you can throttle someone with a jacket... You can take your smartphone an d commulate the battery with wire or whatever(just an example) and you can make out a electroshoker..everything is possible.. It is just the human mind and creativity..everything is dangerous. So I don´t get why it is dangerous... And everytime a SIkhs takes amrit and is given his kirpan, he simultaneously gets the instructions when he can use it and whe not.. and only if he agrees with what the Panj pyarres said he is permitted to wear one.. with this values given with the Kirpan.. it doesnt matter..It is less the kirpan it is more the values... the kirpan is more a remeberance. It is only used in a good way.

    The Kirpan is just for the last stand when all other means have failed... and like Inderjeet Kaur said, it is for protecting so it has two sites.

    Everything our gurus give has a meaning... and that is what is so wonderful...
     
  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    The Physical Kirpan is NOT a "symbol" becasue the SGGS empowers us with the GYAAN KHARRAGH (Sword of KNOWLEDGE). Todays SIKHS are so out of touch with the SGGS..that even the Gyaan Kharragh Sword of Knowledge is just a "symbolic" matha Tek !! ALL the "Gyan" 99% of Sikhs have vis a vis GURBANI/SGGS..is that its ..."something HOLY covered with rumalas, up there right in front ...which everyone matha teks..and places a dollar. PERIOD. The Gurus Sahibs Traveled the World..gathered Gurbani from Various saints bhagats sheikhs, spent over 10 lifetimes, wrote 1429 pages of GYAAN...and we have "SHORTENED" it all to a mere BOW and a Dollar Cash.

    We then descend even LOWER and claim that its ONLY the Last Guru ....Guru Gobind Singh ji who made Kirpan mandatory...which is NOT Fact. KIRPAN is the BEDROCK of GURU NANAK JI's EMPOWERMENT MOVEMENT...He empowered WOMEN, the DOWNTRODDEN, the WEAK, the DEFENSELESS, the Silent LAMBS..to rise up and face the Marauding LION !! BEFORE a "soldier" is given the "License" to bear ARMS..he undergoes TRAINING...same here....No soldier is issued a Machine Gun on his first day..??? WHY should a "Sikh" be issued a Kirpan the moment he walks in and declares I want Amrit ??
    We would have RENEGADE soldiers and we have RENEGADE SIKHS...its the SYSTEM at fault....not the WEAPON per se...

    A COMPLEAT SIKH is one who begins with japji...gets full GYAAN KHARRAGH...reads..understands..follows..adapts his daily life according to the 1429 pages of SGGS fully...and once he has the MENTAL PROWESS to Use the GYAAN KHARRAGH..then and ONLY THEN should he carry the PHYSICAL KIRPAN....then its the Right formula the right combination...otherwise FAULTY. Half Baked Sikhs carrying half baked symbols...a laugh....is like a CHILD handed a GUN..he will shoot his own foot..or kiddy sister..or grandma dead. Then the furore will be..WHO LET THE DOG OUT !!
    THOSE "SIKHS" whsoe Gyaan kharragh is TINY..argue for a symbolic kirpan attached tot eir kanghas or even an EMBROIDED KIRPAN on their Kacherras !! ( and then smart alec will come out with a "historical Kacherra suppsoedly worn by Guru Gobind Singh ji..and it would have an Embroided Kirpan on it ha ha ha..possible really because every other day something like this emerges....there is a virtaul flood gates open on "holy relics"..thaalis, glasses, plates, shoes, cholas Manjas, Bistras, etc etc supposedly owned by the Gurus...whatever...WITH such an ULTRA MODERN SGGS as our GUIDE..we run around in circles quoting DGs and books found by the way-side...looking for "answers" which the GURU has OFFICIALLY already provided in SGGS.:grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh:
     
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