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Hard Talk, Hard Hearts, Heartache: Gaza

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by spnadmin, Mar 27, 2009.

  1. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    On behalf of forum member VaheguruSeekr ji -- Something to consider

    Israel troops admit Gaza abuses
    [​IMG] Israel frequently claims to possess the most moral army in the world.

    An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.
    One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

    Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.

    The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.

    The Israeli army has said it will investigate the soldiers' accounts. The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.


    [​IMG] [​IMG]The climate in general [was that] lives of Palestinians are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers [​IMG]
    Soldier testimony "[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.

    Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.

    Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.

    'Less important'
    The Palestinian woman and two of her children were allegedly shot after they misunderstood instructions about which way to walk having been ordered out of their home by troops.

    "The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers," an infantry squad leader is quoted saying. In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.

    Testimonies, which were given by combat pilots and infantry soldiers, also included allegations of unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property. "We would throw everything out of the windows to make room and order. Everything... Refrigerators, plates, furniture. The order was to throw all of the house's contents outside," a soldier said.

    One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers. "I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder," he said.

    The transcript of the session for the college's Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course, which was held last month, appeared in a newsletter published by the academy. Israeli human rights groups have criticised the military for failing to properly investigate violations of the laws of war in Gaza despite plenty of evidence of possible war crimes.

    'Moral army'
    The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.

    Palestinian civilians paid a heavy price during the three-week Israeli operation. "All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land." "Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.

    Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously. "I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.

    Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.
    The stated aim was to curb rocket and mortar fire by militants from Gaza. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians were killed.

    Source BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel troops admit Gaza abuses
     
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Sad...very sad indeed.
    War..and especially one that has gone on for the past 60 years...takes a huge toll on everyone involved..
    and emotionally tired men often lose their sense of fairness/spirituality/compassion etc..and begin to see everyone as the enemy...REMEMBER...How the Governor of Sirhind..Ordered the brutal murder of the chhotteh sahibzadehs.....the INNOCENT FACES of the 5 year old Zorawar Singh and 7 year old Fateh Singh didnt strike any chord of compassion in anyone......except the Nawab of Malerjotla !! As far as they were all concerned..these children were the sons of the Mortal enemy of the State..and must be destroyed. The Old GRANDMOTHER..mata gujree was also murdered in the same situation..MOTHER of the Enemy of the State !! Imagine a 70 year old grandmother..and 5/7 year old children..enemies of the state !! to be buried ALIVE in a Brick Wall... IF that was to happen TODAY...wouldnt that be all over the Google/CNN/CBN/BBC...pictures of the Wall and all ?? Would there be any "blame" on anyone ?? or JUSTIFICATIONS..loudly proclaimed by either side...Strange ? NOT REALLY......Similar things happened in 1984..all over Punjab..Delhi..Kanpur..etc etc...in the World's BIGGEST democracy...
    The "State of Israel " lives in hourly danger of exploding bombs,,suicide bombers..rockets...calls to drive the Isrealis into the SEA..rise daily from its neighbours...i wonder how they sleep at night...Continous War for 60 years.... BOTH HANDS are needed to CLAP.....Who cries for the innocents ??:}--}: depends on ones religion...politics...?? and so many other things....NO ONE is REALLY "neutral"
     
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  4. mahanbir singh

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    we need loud thinkers & protestors to stop this nonesense.
    what big powers are doing? They see the innocent killings & do nothing.They just watch the brutal killings. This is not a sign of humanity but insanity.
    We all talk about peace but we hardly do any thing to work for peace.
    All this blood shed is in the name of a religion or a peice of land or what?
    Cant we solve any problem without guns, bombs & battels?
    Man has made so much advance in war technology & economy & agriculture but remains stupid as it has not advanced in the field of Spirtuality.
    Man fail to recognize that we all are one.
    MANAS KI JAT SBHEY EKE PAHICHANBO THE GIVEN BY GURU GOBIND SINGH JI HAS FALLEN ON DEAF EARS.
    As long as man does not change his beliefs that we are one man's behaviour will not change.
    Behaviours dont change with bombs & battles. They change with change of beliefs. May God us wisdom to think & act as we all are one. EK PITA EKAS KE HUM BARAK.
    WITH LOVE
    MAHANBIR SINGH
     
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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Once it was called the "Indian Sub Continent"...for the sake of "peace' it was divided into TWO !! Did Peace come..NO..but THREE WARS did ....and then it was further divided into THREE....did peace come..NO...Further WARS are on the cards...SRI Lanka..civil war...Pakistan..exploding bombs in mosques kill own co-religionists......Afghanistan...war...1862 China invaded and grabbed large tracts of Indian Land..a further Major WAR of Aggression is expected from way of Tibet in 2017 (Indian Intelligence reports)...while war rages on in Southern Phillipines..Mindanao..in Souther Thailand..in Middle east...in Timor..in Sumatra Indonesia...in the South Americas..in Europe..in Russia..
    And MAN continues to destroy the planet..with green house emisiions..depleting the ozone layer..depleting the fossil fuels....pollution...depleting the fresh water resources...
    Aggressive Religious Fanatics continue their overzealous converisons and subversions...I pity the Mother Earth and its Inhabitants...Cry my Beloved Earth..CRY
    ONLY the Teachings of the One Truly Universal Scripture..SGGS can change these attitudes and bring real peace....but SIKHS continue to "enforce copyright" issues on the SGGS and refuse to lift the covers of the SGGS so that its GYAAN can shine forth..we have the Lighthouse..but we refuse to open the glass windows..Manas ki Jaat ek Pehchanbo ?? We even refuse to let the SIKHS be "EK JAAT"..what about the entire humanity ?? Is there hope ?? Hope springs eternal..:happy:
     
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  6. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    When religions demark their territories, they show how worse they are in their mentality than the animals that do that with their urine. The name of the astronaut who wrote a book I read a long time ago slipped my mind at the moment. His journey to the space changed his whole perspective about humanity. What he saw was a small speck in this vast Milky Way and he wrote and I am paraphrasing it now, ' Do we have to bring the all humanity up here so that we can teach ourselves about our divisions and demarcations'?

    It is not about who is a Sikh and who is not? Whose pug is more starched and whose whiskers have more mousse splattered on them?

    It is all about the message that our Gurus taught us, showed us through their sacrifices, created the concept of langar and pangat, built Harmander Sahib with 4 doors to welcome all humanity and here we are letting our uneducated honchos- the so called the care takers of Sikhi sitting cross-legged on top of this treasure like snakes.

    The message of true love is more vital and urgent now than ever before.

    As they say, one can awaken the one who is asleep but one can not awaken the sleepwalker.

    Let us, as SPNers take the first concrete steps to awaken the sleepwalkers and create a chain of love so our Gurus' message is linked universally to all especially at the places where it is needed the most, because lots of innocents are dying from hunger, war, neglect. Many are being raped by the marauders who are supposed to be their caretakers in places like Darfur and others.

    Tejwant Singh

     
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  7. mahanbir singh

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    piarey Gyani ji,
    You have beutifull described what is going on in the world
    You are absolutely right when you say that teachihgs of SGGS change the attitudes.
    SGGS IS A LIGHT HOUSE FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD.
    WE HAVE PUSHED THE LIGHT HOUSE UNDER THE BUSHEL. IT WAS MEANT TO BE HUNG ON THE MOUNTAIN TOP SO THAT EVERY ONE CAN SEE THE LIGHT.
    WHEN WE SIKHS OURSELVES DO NOT OPEN THE PAGES OF SGGS HOW CAN WE SHOW THE LIGHT TO OTHERS?
    THERE IS NO GOOD PARCHARAK OR KATHAKAR WHO CAN SPREAD THE MESSAGE.
    WITH SO MUCH MONEY & RESOURCES AT OUR DISPOSAL WE ARE DOING NOTHING.
    WE LISTEN TO GOOD KIRTAN BUT WE HAVE NO INTEREST IN GOOD SERMONS .
    I in my small way speak in Gurdwaras & teach the message of ONENESS.
    I have just returnes from Melbourne where i was asked to do Katha. i made it a point to REMIND the SADH SANGAT the concept of ONENESS & LOVENESS.
    WE ALL ARE TECHERS. LET US TEACH OUR CHILDREN FIRST.THEN THE FAMILY & FRIENDS THEN THE COMMUNITY & THEN THE WHOLE HUMANITY.
    WE MUST TEACH GUMUKHI , OUR MOTHER TONGUE. IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT ENGLISH BEING A COMMON LANGUAGE OF THE WORLD WE ARE NOT TEACHING OURSELVES THE LANGUAGE OF OUR GURUS TO EXACTLY KNOW THE FEELINGS OF OUR GURUS THRU READING OF GURBANI OURSELVES RATHER THAN ENGLISH TRANSLATION OR TRANSLITERATION/
    I FIND A LARGE % OF SIKHS DO NOT KNOW ONE AKHAR OF GURMUKHI.
    HOW WE CAN DIP IN THE SAROVAR OF NECTAR OF GURBANI & DRINK THE AMRIT.
     
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    #6 mahanbir singh, Apr 2, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2009
  8. Archived_member7

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    Lets also see the other side of the story before we blame Israel



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  9. Archived_member7

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    Back in June, 2008, Egypt helped broker a 6-month cease-fire agreement between Israel and Hamas, the ruling body in the Gaza Strip. Though the cease-fire was broken several times by both sides, it largely held. Toward the end of the cease-fire in December, Israel, while closing Gaza's borders since November, indicated that it might extend the agreement, if Hamas ceased all Qassam rocket attacks. Qassam rockets are the crude but deadly homemade missiles often launched towards Israeli territory (over 3,000 times in 2008 alone). Hamas leaders, angered by the blockade and seemingly little political headway made over the past 6 months, recently stepped up rocket attacks on Israel once again. Israel has now responded with five days (so far) of air attacks and Naval bombardment on Gaza, resulting in over 350 dead, nearly 1,500 wounded and countless buildings and smugglers' tunnnels destroyed. Hamas has threatened to increase the rocket attacks send suicide bombers into Israel in retaliation, and Israel is massing troops and tanks around Gaza for a possible ground assault. (37 photos total)
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    A trail of smoke is seen after the launch of a rocket from the northern Gaza Strip aimed towards Israel on December 27, 2008. (REUTERS/Baz Ratner)


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    Masked Palestinian militants from Islamic Jihad run with homemade rockets to put in place before later firing them into Israel on the outskirts of Gaza City, Saturday, Dec. 20, 2008. (AP Photo/Ashraf Amra) #


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    Masked Palestinian militants from Islamic Jihad place homemade rockets before later firing them into Israel on the outskirts of Gaza City, Saturday, Dec. 20, 2008. (AP Photo/Ashraf Amra) #


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    A Palestinian man inspects the damage where a rocket fired by Palestinian militants - intended for a target in Israel - accidentally hit a building in Gaza City, Wednesday, Dec. 24, 2008. Palestinian Iyad Dremly, who works for the Palestinian Center for Conflict Resolution, was injured in the explosion, Palestinian sources said. (AP Photo/Adel Hana) #


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    An Israeli Apache helicopter launches a missile during an attack inside the northern Gaza Strip on December 29, 2008 as seen from the Israeli-Gaza border. (JACK GUEZ/AFP/Getty Images) #


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    Smoke rises above Gaza after another Israeli air strike on a Hamas target, December 29, 2008 along Israel's side of the Gaza border. (Uriel Sinai/Getty Images) #


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    Wounded Palestinians are treated on the floor of crowded Kamal Edwan hospital in Beit Lahia in the northern Gaza Strip on December 29, 2008, following an Israeli air strike on the nearby Jabalia refugee camp. Israeli tanks massed at the Gaza border today as warplanes continued pounding Hamas targets in the densely populated enclave. (MOHAMMED ABED/AFP/Getty Images) #


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    Samera Baalusha (34) (right) sits with her daughter Eman (15) and surviving son Mohamad (15 months) while waiting to see the body of her 4-year-old daughter Jawaher Baalusha during the funeral held for Jawher and her four other sisters who were all killed in an Israeli missile strike, on December 29, 2008 in the Jebaliya refugee camp, in the northern Gaza Strip. Jawher Baalusha and her sisters were killed during an Israeli air raid while they were sleeping together in their bedroom. Medics stated that the raid had targeted a mosque near their home in Jabalia. (Abid Katib/Getty Images) #


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    An Israeli F15 fighter flies over the northern Israeli-Gaza Strip border on December 28, 2008. (JACK GUEZ/AFP/Getty Images) #


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    Smoke billows from a targeted location in the northern Gaza Strip following an Israeli air raid, as seen from the Israeli-Gaza border on December 30, 2008. (JACK GUEZ/AFP/Getty Images) #


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    Many bodies lie outside the Hamas police headquarters following an Israeli air strike in Gaza City on December 27, 2008. (MOHAMMED ABED/AFP/Getty Images) #


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    Palestinian firefighters try to extinguish flames at a medical warehouse after an Israeli airstrike targeted at a fuel tank nearby in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah on Sunday, Dec. 28, 2008. Israel widened its deadliest-ever air offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers Sunday, pounding Hamas targets, smugglers' tunnels and a central prison. (AP Photo/Xinhua) #


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  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    You know rajkhalsa ji,

    Each picture is a picture of my own face -- my anger, my lack of forgiveness, my fear, my suffering, my pain. Change comes from within.
     
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  11. Archived_member7

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    So lets stop blaming Israel...please understand our Jewish brothers are only reacting ...Hamas needs to be cleaned ..deletion..trust me Aad ji had the Palestine citizens been sensible such a Government would not have won elections . Killing innocent children, women, men going to work by using human bombs on buses. Till when should Israel stay inert ???

    Forgive me rajkhalsa ji, but there was a short forum violation there. aad0002
     
  12. Archived_member7

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    Thats fine Aaad ji ..I apologize for harsh comments ..I am too sensitive and that makes me a bit of a loose toungue
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    and if I may add my further one cent observation...
    IMHO..its all one big "LIE" that all this will " GO AWAY..vanish..Foof.Disappear "..IF..IF..IF..Palestine is made an Independent State...Israel is wiped OFF the Map...all will be Peace and Glorious Sunshine...
    Will it really ?? NO.
    The "center stage will then shift...to..."KASHMIR"....just give up Kashmir..and All will be Peace and glorious sunshine..OK OK we give up Kashmir....Hallelujah...Peace ?? Hell NO...
    Shift..to Mindanao Phillipines....OK we give up Mindanao....Peace ?? NO..
    Shift to Pattani South Thailand... OK we give up Pattani..Peace ?? NO....
    Shift to..Sudan..
    shift to Algeria..
    Shift to Ethiopia..
    Shift to Ghana...Nigeria...Albania...Chechniya...UK !! YES UK..USA..Canada..Germany..Hyderabda..Delhi..Amritsar........KEEP SHIFTING...Folks....the Never ending SHIFTING....Even IF all the World's 6 Billion convert...then Shiahs..Sunnis..Ahmediahs..will continue to explode each other....
    More people have died "in anme of religion"...and TODAY even more are DYING IN THE NAME OF THE SAME RELIGION...previously never had a case of catholics bombing Protestan churches...now we have Shiahs bombing Sunni mosques...SAD BIG TIME..
     
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  14. Archived_member7

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    Very true Gyani ji ..its like right from my heart ....I have argued with intellectuals in Mumbai with this very idea ...give away??..till what extent ?? and why ???

    I would like to share this hard fact Gyani ji with you , with every one ...the Mumbai citizens are largely materialistic and such issues for them are like business deals , they give their opinion based on their concept of greasing palms if a contract has to go through...but here is where they are miserable losers since they dont realise that Islam is not a government agency who will be happy with one mouthful. There is no end to their hunger.

    Till the 26/11 attacks the 'common man' of Mumbai was like.." What have we achieved by keeping Kashmir with us for the last 60 years ? Lets give it away and all that terrorism will end "

    AND NOW THE DIFFERENCE IS " SHOOT THEM ..KILL THEM ..FIGHT THEM" ...I would ask them Now why shoot and kill..Give away your Mumbai " ..When it came upon your own blood you have chosen to fight ..when it was in Kashmir ..it was ..." Ohh its Kashmir ..everyday stories " ....

    There was a 2,00,000 strong mob for protest and heaped abuses on politicians ...post 26/11 attacks ..What happened to you when it happend in Kashmir, the Punjab, North East...Where were you ??
     
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  15. Satyaban

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    Namaste

    Many have died over the millenia in the name of religion, in most case when religion tries to or controls a nation or region. Currently it is the Muslims but in the past much blood has been spilled by Catholic, Anglicans, Protestants, Jews, and the many isolated cultures that populated the islands that dot the Pacific, so named by Balboa, and let's not forget Mexico and Central and South America. I leave North America out because religion played no part in our slaughter.

    But here we are talking about Palestine. A place where Israel clearly plays the role of oppressor and of course they learned from the best. I consider their last military operation an outrage and a further violation of Palestinian humanity.

    I don't want to be misunderstood in about this. There is plenty of blame to go around the US for its blind support for Israel is a good example. "To the winner go the spoils" sounds good but does not apply so well in modern times which I think is self explanatory. Blame can also be placed on many Muslim states because they kept the idea alive that they the Pales would be returning so they have lived in refugee camps for decades. The money spent on illegal arms and other weapons, supporting militants like Hezbollah, Hamas, and others could have been spent on infrastructure and housing. If we looked simply at the numbers we would find that those in the camps who lived in what is now Israel are very few and very old. The rest were born outside Israel obviously. Those who were driven out deserve to spend their remaining years in a much better situation.

    I fully support Israel's right to exist within its 1967 borders and also a Palestinian state with self determination and complete sovereignty.

    Pic top to bottom
    1. Wounded Pale child
    2. Pale teen outside destroyed house
    3. Attack on UN school
    4. More destroyed houses fate of inhabitants?
    Photos from Der Spiegel

    Peace now
    Satyaban
     
    #14 Satyaban, Aug 20, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2009

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