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Gurmat and Freewill

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Neutral Singh, Mar 2, 2005.

  1. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie ]
    Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

    We cannot escape God's Will.

    Awpy bIij Awpy hI Kwhu ]
    You shall harvest what you plant.

    Our actions determine our future.

    Contradiction? No.

    We have free will up to an extent. Once we accept that there are things beyond our control, then everything, no matter how good or bad, is great.

    There was once a farmer. He planted his seeds in his fields. Yes it was his will that he planted those seeds, but there were some things out of his control. When there was a drought, he could not control it. When there was a swarm of locusts, he could not control it.

    There is a balance between our will and that of Vaheguru's.

    Many think that everything, no matter what, is out of our control.
     
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  3. Arvind

    Arvind
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    Thanks for sharing this :)

    Regards
     
  4. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Dear Khalsa ji

    here I would like to share a conversation of one of the enlightened soul about the topic it really helped me understanding this point of free will and it goes well with gurmat

    ‘Free choice?’ I interrupted in surprise.
    ‘Indeed, it is only our free choice which creates conflicts in our
    lives; and conflicts are responsible for deterioration. By free choice we
    begin to build up handicaps and complications which we are forced to
    drive out one by one if we are to make our way towards truth.’
    ‘Then we should despair, according to you, just because we have
    been given the faculty of free choice? Would it be better if we were as
    the animals, which simply follow their dark fate and do not know what
    free will means?’
    ‘Not at all. Only the unintelligent mind exercises choice in life.
    When I talk of intelligence I mean it in its widest sense, I mean that
    deep inner intelligence of mind, emotion and will. A truly intelligent
    man can have no choice, because his mind can only be aware of what
    is true and can thus only choose the path of truth. An intelligent mind
    acts and reacts naturally and to its fullest capacity. It identifies itself
    spontaneously with the right thing. It simply cannot have any choice.
    Only the unintelligent mind has free will.’


    Just to make a point clear here that word intelligent used here is not in traditional sense but intelligent is used for elightened sould ( one with god)



    Jatinder Singh
     
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  5. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Sowing and reaping is under the control or Huqum of God.

    Free will is the concept of a few protestants only.

    Well are we bonded by our Father that we want to be free?

    Thinmking that we are free to do anything makes us feel that we are rebeling to God.

    In fact all this comes to mind by intension of God or will of God.
     
  6. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Dear Khalsa ji


    Here is baeutiful quote from Gurbani which says the same thing as we are disscusing before

    AMg 77​
    ang 77
    Page 77
    isrIrwgu mhlw 5 ]​
    s​
    ireeraag mehulaa 5
    Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:

    pihlY phrY rYix kY vxjwirAw imqRw Dir pwieqw audrY mwih ]​
    peh​
    ilai pehurai rain kai vunujaariaa mithraa dhar paaeithaa oudhurai maahi
    In the first watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the Lord placed your soul in the womb.

    dsI mwsI mwnsu kIAw vxjwirAw imqRw kir muhliq krm kmwih ]​
    dhus​
    ee maasee maanus keeaa vunujaariaa mithraa kar muhulath kurum kumaahi
    In the tenth month, you were made into a human being, O my merchant friend, and you were given your allotted time to perform good deeds.

    muhliq kir dInI krm kmwxy jYsw ilKqu Duir pwieAw ]​
    m​
    uhulath kar dheenee kurum kumaanae jaisaa likhuth dhur paaeiaa
    You were given this time to perform good deeds, according to your pre-ordained destiny.

    mwq ipqw BweI suq binqw iqn BIqir pRBU sMjoieAw ]​
    m​
    aath pithaa bhaaee suth banithaa thin bheethar prubhoo sunjoeiaa
    God placed you with your mother, father, brothers, sons and wife.

    krm sukrm krwey Awpy iesu jMqY vis ikCu nwih ]
    kurum s
    ukurum kuraaeae aapae eis junthai vas kish naahi
    God Himself is the Cause of causes, good and bad-no one has control over these things.

    khu nwnk pRwxI pihlY phrY Dir pwieqw audrY mwih ]1]​
    kuh​
    u naanuk praanee pehilai pehurai dhar paaeithaa oudhurai maahi
    Says Nanak, O mortal, in the first watch of the night, the soul is placed in the womb. ||1||

    dUjY phrY rYix kY vxjwirAw imqRw Bir juAwnI lhrI dyie ]​
    dh​
    oojai pehurai rain kai vunujaariaa mithraa bhar juaanee lehuree dhaee
    In the second watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the fullness of youth rises in you like waves.

    burw Blw n pCwxeI vxjwirAw imqRw mnu mqw AhMmyie ]​
    b​
    uraa bhulaa n pushaanee vunujaariaa mithraa mun muthaa ahunmaee
    You do not distinguish between good and evil, O my merchant friend-your mind is intoxicated with ego.

    burw Blw n pCwxY pRwxI AwgY pMQu krwrw ]​
    b​
    uraa bhulaa n pushaanai praanee aagai punth kuraaraa
    Mortal beings do not distinguish between good and evil, and the road ahead is treacherous.

    pUrw siqguru kbhUM n syivAw isir TwFy jm jMdwrw ]​
    p​
    ooraa sathigur kubehoon n saeviaa sir thaatae jum jundhaaraa
    They never serve the Perfect True Guru, and the cruel tyrant Death stands over their heads.

    Drm rwie jb pkris bvry qb ikAw jbwbu kryie ]​
    dhurum r​
    aae jub pukuras buvurae thub kiaa jubaab kuraee
    When the Righteous Judge seizes you and interrogates you, O madman, what answer will you give him then?

    khu nwnk dUjY phrY pRwxI Bir jobnu lhrI dyie ]2]​
    kuh​
    u naanuk dhoojai pehurai praanee bhar jobun lehuree dhaee
    Says Nanak, in the second watch of the night, O mortal, the fullness of youth tosses you about like waves in the storm. ||2||

    qIjY phrY rYix kY vxjwirAw imqRw ibKu sMcY AMDu AigAwnu ]​
    th​
    eejai pehurai rain kai vunujaariaa mithraa bikh sunchai andh agiaan
    In the third watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the blind and ignorant person gathers poison.

    puiqR kliqR moih lpitAw vxjwirAw imqRw AMqir lhir loBwnu ]​
    p​
    uthr kulathr mohi lupattiaa vunujaariaa mithraa anthar lehar lobhaan
    He is entangled in emotional attachment to his wife and sons, O my merchant friend, and deep within him, the waves of greed are rising up.

    AMqir lhir loBwnu prwnI so pRBu iciq n AwvY ]​
    anthar lehar l​
    obhaan puraanee so prubh chith n aavai
    The waves of greed are rising up within him, and he does not remember God.

    swDsMgiq isau sMgu n kIAw bhu jonI duKu pwvY ]​
    s​
    aadhusungath sio sung n keeaa buhu jonee dhukh paavai
    He does not join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, and he suffers in terrible pain through countless incarnations.

    isrjnhwru ivswirAw suAwmI iek inmK n lgo iDAwnu ]​
    s​
    irujunehaar visaariaa suaamee eik nimukh n lugo dhiaan
    He has forgotten the Creator, his Lord and Master, and he does not meditate on Him, even for an instant.

    khu nwnk pRwxI qIjY phrY ibKu sMcy AMDu AigAwnu ]3]​
    kuh​
    u naanuk praanee theejai pehurai bikh sunchae andh agiaan
    Says Nanak, in the third watch of the night, the blind and ignorant person gathers poison. ||3||

    cauQY phrY rYix kY vxjwirAw imqRw idnu nyVY AwieAw soie ]​
    cho​
    uthai pehurai rain kai vunujaariaa mithraa dhin naerrai aaeiaa soe
    In the fourth watch of the night, O my merchant friend, that day is drawing near.

    gurmuiK nwmu smwil qUM vxjwirAw imqRw qyrw drgh bylI hoie ]​
    g​
    urumukh naam sumaal thoon vunujaariaa mithraa thaeraa dhurugeh baelee hoe
    As Gurmukh, remember the Naam, O my merchant friend. It shall be your Friend in the Court of the Lord.

    gurmuiK nwmu smwil prwxI AMqy hoie sKweI ]​
    g​
    urumukh naam sumaal puraanee anthae hoe sukhaaee
    As Gurmukh, remember the Naam, O mortal; in the end, it shall be your only companion.

    iehu mohu mwieAw qyrY sMig n cwlY JUTI pRIiq lgweI ]​
    e​
    ihu mohu maaeiaa thaerai sung n chaalai jhoothee preeth lugaaee
    This emotional attachment to Maya shall not go with you; it is false to fall in love with it.

    sglI rYix gudrI AMiDAwrI syiv siqguru cwnxu hoie ]​
    sugul​
    ee rain gudhuree andhiaaree saev sathigur chaanun hoe
    The entire night of your life has passed away in darkness; but by serving the True Guru, the Divine Light shall dawn within.

    khu nwnk pRwxI cauQY phrY idnu nyVY AwieAw soie ]4]​
    kuh​
    u naanuk praanee chouthai pehurai dhin naerrai aaeiaa soe
    Says Nanak, O mortal, in the fourth watch of the night, that day is drawing near! ||4||

    iliKAw AwieAw goivMd kw vxjwirAw imqRw auiT cly kmwxw swiQ ]​
    l​
    ikhiaa aaeiaa govindh kaa vunujaariaa mithraa outh chulae kumaanaa saath
    Receiving the summons from the Lord of the Universe, O my merchant friend, you must arise and depart with the actions you have committed.

    iek rqI iblm n dyvnI vxjwirAw imqRw EnI qkVy pwey hwQ ]​
    e​
    ik ruthee bilum n dhaevunee vunujaariaa mithraa ounee thukurrae paaeae haath
    You are not allowed a moment's delay, O my merchant friend; the Messenger of Death seizes you with firm hands.

    iliKAw AwieAw pkiV clwieAw mnmuK sdw duhyly ]​
    l​
    ikhiaa aaeiaa pukarr chulaaeiaa munumukh sudhaa dhuhaelae
    Receiving the summons, people are seized and dispatched. The self-willed manmukhs are miserable forever.

    ijnI pUrw siqguru syivAw sy drgh sdw suhyly ]​
    j​
    inee pooraa sathigur saeviaa sae dhurugeh sudhaa suhaelae
    But those who serve the Perfect True Guru are forever happy in the Court of the Lord.

    krm DrqI srIru jug AMqir jo bovY so Kwiq ]​
    kurum dhuruth​
    ee sureer jug anthar jo bovai so khaath
    The body is the field of karma in this age; whatever you plant, you shall harvest.

    khu nwnk Bgq sohih drvwry mnmuK sdw Bvwiq ]5]1]4]​
    kuh​
    u naanuk bhuguth sohehi dhuruvaarae munumukh sudhaa bhuvaath
    Says Nanak, the devotees look beautiful in the Court of the Lord; the self-willed manmukhs wander forever in reincarnation. ||5||1||4||



    Jatinder Singh

     
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  7. Occam's Razor

    Occam's Razor
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    So if I'm not mistaken ... one must be able to control both the weather and other creatures(locusts) in order to have complete free will?
     
  8. hps

    hps
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    Dear Sir,
    What exactly is this Free will according to Sikh Philosphy as reflected in the scriptures.I would prefer if you limit the answer within the edicts Of Dhan SGGS ji.
    I could not do so myself and hence the request.

    Thanks and regards.
    hps
     
  9. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    As Ik Ong Kaar is omnipotent then no one else has the power to have freewill.

    Freewill is a snakeoil slogan concocted by Christanity to sell one more illusion called Hell and Heaven, meaning one goes to either of them by one's own freewill which contradicts their dogma of God being omnipotent.

    The Sikhi way of life is not like that. Gurmat values act like catalysts in us.

    We are mere channels from which the CREATIVE ENERGY passes through. With a lead pencil we can kill someone or draw like Leonardo da Vinci.It all depends on how we channelise the very same energy.

    Hence NOT with freewill but with GURMAT VALUES, we can all become Leonardos.

    Tejwant
     
  10. roopsidhu

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    Very Informative And Interesting Discussion
     
  11. curious seeker

    curious seeker
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    Hi

    What I get from this is that ?
    Our limited free ought be used for its purpose, which is, to choose good and eschew evil. But without placing our free will under the hukam of the will of the True Guru, we cannot know the difference between good and evil. We are destined to either place our will under His Command or to do evil The rewards of evil is suffering and reincarnation

    Did I get it right? And if I did not, where did I go wrong?

    Blessings
    Curious
     
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