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Gurus Gurgaddi Questions

Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by vivekraj, Nov 9, 2009.

  1. vivekraj

    vivekraj
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    Dear friends,

    Why the Gurgaddi (Guruship) was bestowed upon Shri Guru Harkishan Sahib? Some people raise doubt over this and says that Sodhi Gurus wanted to keep gurgaddi within their family.

    I have no doubt that a small child can be enlightened and capable,
    giving the gurgadii to small child meant risking the entire sikh community and identity of that time, however, this statement clearly cut states that there was no nepotism involved as some elderly person would have then the choice.

    No sikh guru was greedy of power fame and land and instead work for the common man welfare without any caste prejudice.

    Can you please help me in this regard of the succession of gurus after 4th master also it is difficult to surf through this websit one goes mad.
     
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  3. vivekraj

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    sorry for spelling and grammatical mistakes
    i meant to say
    mughal administration was looking to wipe out sikh identity of that time. Gurgaddi was given to shri gur harkishan sahib which would have risked the sikh identity. This was known to seventh master and hence the charges of nepotism are baseless.

    question is /: was any nepotism involved in the matter of gurgaddi
     
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  4. spnadmin

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    As a rule spelling mistakes and the like are rarely a problem. We can read through them -- most of us can - so don't worry. No apologies necessary, vivekraj ji

    Now down to the nuts and bolts.This is a question for Gyani ji!

    Would you be able to send us a link or tell us more about the background to your questions. Without more information it is hard to know what to say. Where did this story come from? Where did you read/hear of it? If someone told you this, what is their background?

    I have to admit that this is a new one for me. And it sounds like an anti-Panthic rumor that could be circulating in any number of religious or cultural situations with the aim of upsetting people like you. Sometimes a person or persons will start a controversy like this in order to create doubt and confusion, and then try to rope you into their point of view. Babas are famous for this -- and all they are really after is a large group of followers and their money. Let us know.
     
  5. spnadmin

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    I am back again and I think you are being hoodwinked, tricked. I don't know why.

    After searching on "doubts Guru Harkrishan gurgaddi" in Google I came up with this page

    That starts out Family History and then goes on
    See the entire article at this link family history

    Family History of the Sodhis of Guruharsahai
    Here, I will attempt to give the correct version of the history of my family as it has been passed on to me by my forefathers as it has been passed down from generation to generation. I will refer to quotes taken from different books where possible. Most of our history is already a known fact & I will try to fill in the gaps which are not known to all people.
    Our Ancestors, Kalrai ruled at Lahore and his brother, Kalpat, at Kasur. The latter drove out Kalrai, who took refuge with some king in the Deccan, whose daughter he married. Their son Sodhi Rai re-conquered Lahore, and Kalpat in his turn became an exile. He went to Banaras and studied the Vedas, on which account he obtained the name of Bedi. All the Sikh Gurus were either Bedis or Sodhis; Guru Nanak belonged to the former, Guru Gobind Singh to the latter Family.
    When the Sodhis descendants of Sodhi Rai were rulers, the descendants of Kalpat who had studied the Vedas and bore the name of Bedis, at one stage came to the Sodhis and recited the Vedas. The Sodhis were so highly impressed with the knowledge of the Bedis that they gave up their Raj Path in favor of the Bedis and asked them to rule in their place and themselves took sanyas in search of enlightenment. Before the Sodhis left their Palace, the Bedis blessed the Sodhis and said that when KALYUG would come the descendants/Representatives of the Bedis would return to the Sodhis all that they had given to the Bedis, and that they would give their daughter in marriage along with a temple made of gold.

    Guru Har Sahai
    This place was a waste tract between the territories occupied by the Brars and Dogars, who were constantly quarrelling over its possession. About two centuries ago, one Jiwan Mal came and pitched his tent upon this waste. He was a Sodhi, seventh in descent from the celebrated Guru Ram Das. He had been driven from his home in Mohammadpur near Chunian in the Lahore district ( now in Pakistan), by the Kardar who represented Ahmed Shahs Government. No doubt he had made himself obnoxious by showing fanaticism towards the religion. The Dogar Chief Sultan gave him protection and encouragement to remain in the place, believing that his presence would be a measure to stop the incursions of the Brars, and put an end to the disputes between the tribes. the Brars also favored him, knowing him to be a priest of their own religion. He was therefore permitted to establish a number of villages in the plain, and he fixed his boundaries by marking down the tracks of his horses hooves as he made a long circuit one morning around the boundary of the land he fancied. He named the ilaqa Guru Har Sahai after his eldest son, who eventually took his fathers place as head of the family. Jiwan Mal appears to have made friends later on with Ahmed Shah, because he was allowed to hold his land free of revenue, and the grant was renewed by Ranjit Singh when the Mohammedans authority disappeared from this part of the Punjab.12
    The religious influence of the family was very great throughout the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and many of the Sodhis of Guru Har Sahai were employed at the court of Lahore, and they accompanied the army on expeditions along the frontier, when it was necessary to keep up the enthusiasm of the men at a high pitch. In making these journeys, they seized the opportunity of bringing the followers under their own religious banner from among the scattered Hindu families of western Punjab, and up to the historic partition of the country in 1947,continued to be revered by a large number of Sikhs, not only in their immediate neighborhood but also in Rawalpindi,Pashawar,Kohat and the Derajat. On the death of Guru Gulab Singh in 1867,only two-thirds of the Jagir was continued to his successor Fateh Singh on a life tenure. It was unfortunate that he became involved in quarrels with his own son, and in his time much of the old influence of the family melted away. He was moreover on bad terms with Bishan Singh his eldest son and to despise him, made a gift of the property and Guruship to his younger son Kabul Singh. A law suit followed, and that Guru Bishan Singh was successful, but the expenses of litigation seriously crippled the property. On the death of Fateh Singh in 1879,the Jagir was temporarily resumed, and it was regretted to Guru Bishan Singh in 1885 under a sanad from the supreme Government.13



    I then went on and googled Guru Har Sahaie who was mentioned in the article above and came up with this Wikipedia entry

    Guru Har Sahai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    These two paragraphs are identical with 2 paragraphs in the above article

    This place was a waste tract between the territories occupied by the Barars and Dogars, who were constantly quarrelling over its possession. About two centuries ago, one day Jiwan Mal came and pitched his tent upon this waste. He belonged to a Sodhi family, 7th in descent from the celebrated Guru Ram Das. He had been driven from his home at Mohammadpur, near Chunian, in the Lahore District (now in Pakistan), by the Kardar who represented Ahmed Shah s Government. No doubt, he had made himself obnoxious by showing fanaticism towards the religion. The Dogars Chief, Sultan, gave him protection and encouragement to remain in the place, believing that his presence would in a measure stop the incursions of the Barars and put an end to the disputes between the tribes. The Brars also favored him, knowing him to be a priest of their own religion. Therefore, he was, permitted to establish a number of villages in the plain, and he fixed his boundaries by marking down the tracks of his horses hooves as he made a long circuit one morning along the boundary of the land he fancied. He named the area of Guru Har Sahai after his eldest son, who eventually took his father s place as the head of the Family. Jiwan Mal appears to have made friends later on with Ahmed Shah, because he was allowed to hold his land free of lgaan, and the grant was renewed by Ranjit Singh when the Mohammedans authority disappeared from this part of the Punjab.

    The religious influence of the family was very great throughout the region of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and many of the Sodhis of Guru Har Sahai were employed at the court of Lahore and they accompanied the army on expeditions along the frontier, when it was necessary to keep up the enthusiasm of the men at a high pitch. While making these journeys, they seized the opportunity of bringing the followers under their own religious banner from among the scattered Hindu family of the western Punjab and up to the historic Partition of the country in 1947, continued to be revered by a large numbers of the Sikhs, not only in their immediate neighborhood but also in Rawalpindi, Peshawar, Kohat and the Derajat. On the death of Guru Gulab Singh in 1869, only two-thirds of the Jagir was continued to his successor, Fateh Singh on a life-tenure. It was unfortunate that he became involved in quarrels with his own son, and in his time, much of the old influence of the family melted away. Ha was. Moreover, on bad terms with Bishan Singh, his eldest son and to despise him, made a gift of his property and Guruship to his younger son, Kabul Singh. A Lawsuit followed and that Guru Bishan Singh was successful, but the expenses of litigation seriously crippled the property. On the death of Fateh Singh in 1879, the Jagir was temporarily resumed, and it was re-granted to Guru Bishan Singh in 1885 under a samad from the supreme government.

    Here is something else that is related connecting Guru Jaswant Singh to the two stories

    Pedigree Table of Sodhi Family


    Questioning his gurgaddi is being done at the expense of the name of Guru Harkhrisan. I do not know who wrote either of these documents. But I will tell you this. Any Sikh of the Sodhi family would know that after Guru Gobind Singh there were no longer any human Gurus. So why does article number 1 refer to Guru Jaswant Singh, Guru Golab Singh, Guru Bishan Singh -- and a number of other Gurus. Some of those named as "Guru" may actually be Pandits of the Nirmala sect during the 1800's.

    http://www.wikisikhi.com/index.php/PANDIT_SADHU_SINGH

    Something does not add up.
     
    #4 spnadmin, Nov 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2009
  6. Tejwant Singh

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    Narayanjot ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    If I am not mistaken, I have mentioned about the Sodhis from Gur Har Sahai in some other thread. They are very well known to my family in Ferozepore, my home town. Many also live there and commute to Gur Har Sahai. They have some Pothi which they claim belong to one of our Gurus and they rake a lot of money by making people visit the place where it is situated.

    They write the title Gurus, Ranas, Tikkas before their name depending on the hierarchy . In fact the Wikipedia link that you gave on Gur Har Sahai has an interesting anecdote.

    Rana Gurmeet Singh Sodhi and I grew up together,studied at the same convent school and competed in many rifle shooting competitions together which we won all of them and went hunting together and also did many other things which are unmentionable here:). Mind you, this all happened till I was 16 and then I left for the UK. He is a couple of years older than I am and I attended his wedding at Guru Har Sahai when he was 18 before leaving for London. He later on divorced the woman because she was much older than he was and for some other reasons. He is my buddy. The last time I met him was in 2000 when I took my kids to see their Grandma- Amee ji.

    We still keep in touch via emails and phone calls.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  7. spnadmin

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    Tejwant ji

    Well thanks for the update. I do not mean to insult you or offend your friendship with the Sodhi family. The question however from the thread starter goes unanswered. Did the selection of Guru Harkrishan put the panth in danger -- which appears to be a claim made in the Sodhi family -- or at least in accounts so written. Are you also saying that Guru is an honorific title? Or do they consider themselves a family of Gurus? You could shed some light on the issue asked by vivekraj ji?
     
  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Two HUGE Flaws in this fairy tale which is actually repeated in the Bachittar Natak Garnth as well as various nati-Panthic literature written by the UNKNOWN author of Gurbilas Patshi chhevin (History of Guru Hargobind Ji).
    The FLAW is that the Gurgadee of GURU ANGAD JI..and Gurgadee of Guru Amardass Ji..are LEFT OUT so conspiciously..simply because they DO NOT FIT into the elaborate Bedi-Sodhi tall tale Zigsaw Puzzle !!!! Guru Anagd Ji was NOT a BEDI/SODHI and Neither was Guru Amardass Ji !! So this Zigsaw has to SKIP over these TWO to Link up Guur nanak the BEDI and Guru RAMDASS the SODHI. A Most INCONVENIENT but necessary hop skip and jump..or the story falls apart.....and thus THESE TWO GURUS are not even mentioned by the writer of bachittar Natak granth or Gurbilas Patshi chhevin - Incidentally Gurbaksh singh kala afghan ahs researcehed and proved that BOTH the Gurbilas and Bachitar natak writer are ONE and the SAME unknown person.

    2. Gurbilas Patshhi chhevin..and Gurbials Patshahi Dasvin...ONLY these TWO GURUS have been specifically chosen..due to their Martial Specs....to SEPARATE them form the Mainstream GURUS....hence efforts to say that Guru hargobind took on a Martial role, Miri Piri battles etc and DEPARTED/DESERTED the Peaceful sant role set out by the Five Gurus preceeding Him....this idea has been sold and bought by many non-sikh historians.
    Then Gurbials Pat Dasvin...Guru Gobind Singh Ji ahs been even more severely taken out of context...His life is full of kautaks and all in copycat fashion to Bhagwaan Krishan Ji's childhood pranks and all...and He is said to have begun a New Panth..deserting the Nine Gurus before him..etc etc. In Fact it is very common for people to say..I beleive only in first NINE GURUS..and man NOT a SINGH of GGS..He began a new religion..etc etc..which is a Total LIE and far from the TRUTH. Whatever GGS did is fully sanctioned by GURBANI in SGGS and GGS has not departed an inch from GURU NANAK jis mission. The Khalsa Panth is by GURU NANAK JI...and GGS completed His task...begun in 1469..in 1699.
    3. A special GRANTH..was named after GGS to set him apart. This is another chapter in the same plot to separate GGS from the Nine Gurus. IF ALL of them cna be Gurus via SGGS even IF three of them never wrote a single tuk of Gurbani...there is no need to deny that GGS is GURU unless we accept his "granth" as well. THIS line of thinking is the main argument of the dsm garnthies.

    Mainly the GURGADEE is NOT hereditory..its not tied to AGE..maturity..particualr region etc etc etc. Thus we have a Prevous Hindu Devotee Bhai lehna ji as GURU..we have an OLD MAN of 70+ Guru Amardass ji becoming GURU..we have a SON in Law bhai Jetha Ji..penniless orphan..becoming GURU..we have a child aged 7 Guru harkishen Ji becoming Guru...ALL this is to show and prove so many points. No just "elder son" gets ALL..no just "Blood relations" get everything..no this or that..JUST MERIT. Notice how the Gurgadee jumps Back and Forth...Guur hargobind Ji..to Grandson.. Guru har rai Ji...to Guru harkishen Ji..and then BACK to Son of GURU HARGOBIND JI (Guru Teg bahadur Ji who was Baba Grandfather of Guru harkishen Ji ). Questions could be asked as to WHY Guru hargobidn Ji bypassed his SON TEG BAHADUR JI...in favour of Grandson..and then after next Guru..it came back to GRANDFATHER...all this is in Range of speculation only. no body can really say whats the reason...only the GURU KNOWS..but for a SIKH..its always..THE GURU KNOWS BEST. All thsi is off the cuff..as little time...will post more if any questions raised..
    Thank you.
     
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  9. Tejwant Singh

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    Narayanjot ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I do not find my friendship to Gurmeet as an insult nor an offence. It is not Gurmeet's fault that he was born in the Sodhi family. In my opinion the title Guru used by them is to flaunt their descendency in an arrogant manner. Nothing more, because the fact is that our Gurus never gave themselves that Title. The followers gave that to them. SGGS is the proof of that.


    Again,in my opinion this is nothing but 'Monday morning Quarter backing' as we say in the American Football jargon, by the Sodhis and the Bedis who also claim to have another Pothi which is also a money making machine and they are also from Ferozepore.

    The proof is in the 25 million Sikhs around the world.

    The jealousy factor in the families is natural and sometime can create big rifts especially when they claim to be the descendants from our Gurus. It is believed that "The Gurus" of Gur Har Sahai are from Prithvi Chand's family, which does make them descendants from Guru Ram das ji.

    I know of some murders in these families committed by the family members. Your own educational background will be able to understand this phenomena better.

    There are also Bawas/ Bhallas in Ferozepore who also claim to be the direct descendants of our 3rd Guru, Guru Amardas ji.

    Thanks to our visionary Gurus, Sikhi is not personality based but idea based. Once again, the proof is in the SGGS where our Gurus gave themselves numbers. No names, no titles. Nada. But kudos to their greatness, they retained the titles of others who called themselves Bhagats, Sheikhs etc.

    So, from Sikhi viewpoint, the claims, bickering and the titles " Gurus" used by some in The Bedis, The Sodhis and The Bawas have no relevance to Sikhi. It rather shows how distant they have become from their own ancestors in a spiritual sense and this is all by their own choosing.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  10. Tejwant Singh

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    Gyani ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    There are also similar fairy tales and made up stories in a big Granth like book called " The Sodhi Chamatkar" which is revered by many ignorant people because it is peddled by these so called descendants of our Gurus.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  11. spnadmin

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    Tejwant ji and Gyani ji

    Thanks to both of you.. The important thing is to relieve the case of nerves that the story has created for one forum member. I am sure that you have cleared the situation up for that member.

    I certainly learned a chapter full myself in reading your comments and the historical material. This chapter alone is worth being a member here. :)
     
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Narayanjot kaur ji,
    gurfateh.

    SPN is definitley turning into the Numero Uno..."FAQ" resource on Sikhism/Gurmatt/Sikh History/various other topics of General interest...knowledgeable sections..in fact there is anything and everything for each one..young, old, teen, sikh and non-sikh. SPN is one of a kind...and we are all responsible for this phenomenal success...it gladdens my heart whenever i read such posts....this is genuine seva in its own way...:happy:
     
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  13. vivekraj

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    Dear friends
    sorry to say nobody answered the question rightly and panicked and tried to blame deras etc. I do not hesitate to say that i can see tenth master in all even in dera followers or panth dokhis . i do not want to control anybody's life.
    Nepotism is a common accusation in politics when the relative of a powerful figure ascends to similar power seemingly without appropriate qualifications.

    First of all gurgaddi cannot be equated with normal political power gaddi.
    None of the gurus was greedy of power, land , status or money and did not derive any benefit from it.
    All the gurus lived for others and set up examples of sacrifices, altrusitic volunatary service and love to humanity
    It was bibi bhani who wanted all the brahm gianis or Gurus to be born in her family or lineage. and there is no harm in asking for this.

    After fourth master fifth master gave his life as sacrifice to uphold truth . A nepotist person will never give his sacrifice at the altar of humanity
    sixth guru gave the humanity martial spirits. Howver he was also in favour of peaceful means tried first he was instrumental in giving the initial shape of saint soldier concept
    now the sixth master could have given gurgaddi to ninth master had he been nepotistic but instead give gurgaddi to guru har rai sahib his grandson
    again Guru har rai ji did such magical work for humanity and had he been nepotist he would have given gurgaddi to ninth master but it was given to his son who was eightyears old.
    Now giving gurgaddi to small child would have meant risking the whole sikh identity (as mughals wanted to destroy the sikh nation but guru har rai was not nepotist).The jyot of guru nank was passed to small child who again for curing the deadly disease of people risked his life.
    No nepotist person will do it

    again the ninth master sacrificed his life so nepotist cannot do this
    again the tenth master never conceived any more progeny even after his four sons were martyred
    so no guru was nepotist and did not derive any benefit from gurgaddi

    also when SGGS was compiled no sikh master sat equal to it hence after compilation of SGGS gurgaddi was symbolic and emant to counter the threat of mughals and panth dokhis. Other things were there:
    Sixth, seventh, eigth and tenth master gave the practical shape to the concept of sant and soldier by induging themselves and sikh sangat in simran, meditation and doing altruistic voluntary service
    .

    had the gurus been nepotist we would have a living master with physical body from sodhis till now

    how can we rule out that in a family or lineage all the persons can be enlightened.
    God does not require anybody suggesstion for any of his decisions:happy:

    The magical personalities of all the sikh gurus, their sacrifices and gurbani and altrusitic volunatary service is not even found in today' great personalities:happysingh:
    any person can be enlightened at any age and love of god is expressed in a person in many ways like gurbani,simran and social service etc

    gurfateh there is no need to panic at nay question



     
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  14. spnadmin

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    vivekraj

    All blessing to you to have your answer - and glad that you are so enthusiastic too. :wah:
     
  15. vivekraj

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    i go mad and get headache when i visit this site
    now i wannot visit
    please make this site simple with less links a
    am not able to find topics
    so good bye friends
    actual problem is sikhs do not want to share their knwoeldge and intellect
    really i go mad with such congestion of things

    Edited by Narayanjot Kaur - adjusted font size and colors to default.
     
  16. spnadmin

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    That is OK ji - You have a right to your feelings and opinions. Come back to enjoy the site whenever you wish.
     
  17. Admin Singh

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    Vivek Ji, thanks for your feedback. We really do appreciate your concern and grievance...

    Certainly, you would like to tell us which links are bothering you so much... perhaps you could guide us to a ideal website layout so that other members can also get benefited from this...

    We look forward to your concrete feedback in this matter... i have moving this out of context posts here to a new topic under feedback and suggestions section...

    Thanks and regards,

    :happysingh:
    Aman
     
  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    anyway who "panicked " ?? i went through all the replies and couldnt find any one who panicked....could it be ME ?? I hope not since i tried my level best to be balanced..but as a human anyone can make mistakes...and I certainly WANT to SHARE all my knowledge ( if i really have any)...in the way i know best..and that is via SPN.

    2. The point about navigation...as far as my friend Sardar Gurmit Singh ji of Australia and maybe a few others i dont know about...they being old and non-IT experienced...the Front Page(Main/Home) of SPN may look ..awesome !! (but in a frightening way..as if there is too much info...like walking into a restaurant and asking the waiter what have you..and he rattles off a hundred dishes..when all one may want was just plain daal roti..he he he...after hearing so much "food" the appetite may disappear due to fear of asking the wrong dish ?? or something like that...all this is PERSONAL...we just cannot satisfy each and everyone...all have a learning curve..and slowly learn at own pace..practise makes perfect...
    3. My own wish...is that is there any way the SEARCH can be made like in Google...where we type in a word...even a "question"....or just a sentence....and viola...the threads we want are there ..all lined up in single file..Everytime i want to find a thread..i find it so difficult...if its my own..i have to go to my profile and click..find all threads by...or is my own Learning Curve lost in the doldrums...??? and its all there on SPN and i just have to elarn the ropes better..? time will tell..
     
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