Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana - A Debate

[Archived_Member1]

Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

But no one has effectivley ANSWERED his questions with Gurbani from SGGS - not the jathedars and not the detractors.
The best answer to his ...... is the Correct Gurbani based answers.

Gyani jarnail Singh

check these:

Sants Vs Afgana Part 1 - (Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji)

Sants Vs Afgana Part 2 - (Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji)

 

[Inder singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

<<<<Fined only 5000 CAD for sexual abuse?>>>

Response

It is not amount of fine that is determining factor.Conviction is the issue here.He is a categorised sex offender.

 

[Inder singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

<<<<Fined only 5000 CAD for sexual abuse?>>>

Response

Amount of fine is not the issue here.It is conviction as a sex offender that is the issue.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

<<<<Fined only 5000 CAD for sexual abuse?>>>

Response

Amount of fine is not the issue here.It is conviction as a sex offender that is the issue.

I think whether it's a fine or custodial sentence IS important.

If someone sexually abused me I would want to see them locked up, and in the UK they are locked up and not fined.

 

[Inder singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Randip singh

Let me tell you the background of the case.

he was calling this lady on the pretext of taeching her Gurbani meanings.One day he told her that the teeka was in his quarters.She went there.he tried to fondle her.She raised a hue and cry.He could not succeed in his designs.

The committeee took the case to police.Poilce advised Committeee that if you take this case to court your community and Gurudwara name will be tarnished.Committee and lady Bhullar agreed.

This Kala afghana was dismissed.He was a policeman.He told them since he was not going to be taken to court give him in writing that case has been cleared.The committee did that.

Now this man was a corrupt policeman.After sometime he filed a case of defamation against the lady.The judge reviewed the case.That is how he was found guilty.

I think now it is better to understand the background of the case.

 

[singh is king]

Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

did he serve any time ? or pay a fine ?
Evidence of those as well should be posted.

But no one has effectivley ANSWERED his questions with Gurbani from SGGS - not the jathedars and not the detractors.
The best answer to his
Gyani jarnail Singh

BTW what are his questions? did he ever post on net? could anybody please post his questions on SPN? I don't think any scholar is neded to answer his questions (if exsists), onlyb a sikh is enuff.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

BTW what are his questions? did he ever post on net? could anybody please post his questions on SPN? I don't think any scholar is neded to answer his questions (if exsists), onlyb a sikh is enuff.

they're not so much questions as accusations.

he says (among other things):

Dasam Granth is not written by Guru Gobind Singh ji
Jaap Sahib, Chaupai Sahib, and Sawyee are not banis
we should not wash our feet before entering gurdwara
there's no such thing as "amrit vela"
pittasay were not added to amrit at the first amrit sanchar
saying the approrpiate banis cannot make amrit from water...
says Anand Karaj is brahmanic ritual

he attacks AKJ, 3HO, Damdami Taksal and other respected sikh organizations as being "agents of hinduism".

i'm sure some of his followers here can elaborate on his beliefs.

 

[Admin]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

May be somebody planted that women to make a case out against him... What was the age of Afgana, when he tried to overpower the women? Just an after thought really...

 

[pk70]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Randip singh

Let me tell you the background of the case.

he was calling this lady on the pretext of taeching her Gurbani meanings.One day he told her that the teeka was in his quarters.She went there.he tried to fondle her.She raised a hue and cry.He could not succeed in his designs.

The committeee took the case to police.Poilce advised Committeee that if you take this case to court your community and Gurudwara name will be tarnished.Committee and lady Bhullar agreed.

This Kala afghana was dismissed.He was a policeman.He told them since he was not going to be taken to court give him in writing that case has been cleared.The committee did that.

Now this man was a corrupt policeman.After sometime he filed a case of defamation against the lady.The judge reviewed the case.That is how he was found guilty.

I think now it is better to understand the background of the case.

Inder Singh ji

Kala Afghana really didn’t get good marks personally ever. I wonder a person who himself voilates Gurmat, what right that person has left to preach Gurmat.
I read Mr. Ghaga too, the person claims he is just serving panth. Pity on him. Then there is Joginder Singh Spokesman who has built empire in Chandigarh on misguided sangat. Sunday 24 Feb 2008, he published an article questioning Ravidas's purity on the basis of fabricated stories. When it was opposed, an apology was offered but a case was registered against Joginder Singh and his employee any way. Why to do that? What to establish that? What to prove? Why the guy published the article in the first place? His wife blames Badal Govt( I am not found of them either) when a warrant was issued against Joginder Singh. Amanider Singh stood right behind him? Why man? The guy heart feelings of Bhagat Ravidas's followers and you and your party will fight for that? Shame on you. In U.S, political leaders show a little distance if some thing is said unacceptable but in India political people take sides openly! Waheguru save India!!!! You know what? I heard from fprmer emlpyee of Spokesman that all lthses guys are in bed with each other. Sikhs should just stay aware of these people







DAMAGES

The counterclaim is advanced by both Bhullars against
the plaintiff for the sexual assault. It is my view
that the only one who can succeed in the counterclaim
is Mrs. Bhullar. The defendant argues as if there is a
counterclaim for defamation of character as well as
sexual assault, but in fact that is not what the
pleadings disclose. In any event, a case has not been
made out to entitle Mr. Bhullar to damages.

With respect to general damages for the sexual
assault, I have to bear in mind the gravity of the
assault, the circumstances of it, and its effect on
Mrs. Bhullar. In this case, unlike a number of others
where damages have been sought for sexual assault, the
assault is of a comparatively minor nature in the
sense that there was only the one incident, as opposed
to cases where the assault was a rape or a similar
crime of violence, or assaults on younger people, that
have often continued over a number of years. Little is
to be gained by trying to compare damages in cases
that are not similar to the case at bar, so I do not
propose to review the current authorities which are
not bountiful. What I have to deal with here is an
assault by a priest in the living quarters of a Sikh
temple upon a parishioner who was requested to attend
by the priest, who is the plaintiff. The emotional
impact of the forceful touching of the plaintiffs
chest and the attempt to take off her stockings is not
only offensive but appalling, particularly as the
priest in the Sikh religion is held in high esteem and
the utmost in decorum is expected of him. He was in a
position of trust and abused that trust. The assault
was made possible because of the respect of Mrs.
Bhullar for the plaintiff as priest and her being at
the temple at all was at his request. With respect to
the consequences or the effect on Mrs. Bhullar, there
is very little evidence before me other than her
feelings of humiliation, shock and degradation. There
do not appear to be any serious after-effects other
than distaste for the whole matter. Consequently, it
is my view that the damages should reflect the
seriousness of the assault but damages in other more
serious cases should be borne in mind to keep a
balanced perspective of damages under this head. To
some extent the impact on Mrs Bhullard is lessened, as
her success in this lawsuit vindicates her and face is
saved in a society where it is very important. By the
same token, the plaintiff is discredited and has lost
all respect and credibility in his community. I award
general damages to Mrs. Bhullar in the amount of
$5,000.00 for the sexual assault.

A claim has been advanced for punitive damages. In
this case it is my view that it is appropriate that
punitive damages be awarded. They are not awarded on
the basis of compensation but on the principle of
punishment. In this case no criminal proceedings were
launched, although the Bhullars did report the matter
to the police, who left it to the Sikh community to
sort out the matter and did not proceed with charges.
Consequently, the element of punishment of the
plaintiff for his conduct has not been addressed. In
this case punitive damages need be awarded to express
society's disapproval of the conduct of the plaintiff
as a priest in authority and trust breaching that
trust and sexually assaulting a parishioner. His
attempting, after that, to manufacture evidence and
shift the blame away from himself and his harassment
of Mrs. Bhullar is despicable. I award the sum of
$5,000.00 as punitive damages. Mrs. Bhullar will have
her costs of the counterclaim and pre-judgment
interest at the rate set by the Registrar from time to
time.

MACDONELL J.

(JUDGE)
================================================

To All: It has been confirmed that KalaAfghana is
infact convicted Sex offendar, I just got email from
Mrs. Bhullar Attorney, I am forwarding that where in
he has indicated that he was successfull in his case
against Khalsa.
What a joke we have been honoring a sex offendar in
Gurudwara's and passing him as a scholar and reformer.
Thanks,
Jagwinder Singh



From: Chris Considine QC
<cmconsidine@...>
To: JAGWINDER BANIPAL <jagwinder@...>
Subject: Re: B.C.J. No. 378 Victoria Registry No.
89/1983 Khalsa v. Bhullar
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:09:18 -0700

Dear Jagwinder Singh ,
I acted for Ms Bhullar and we were successful in the
case .I have not read the digest you sent in detail
but check with B.C.J.if you have any questions
regarding the accuracy of the reported decision .
Yours truly ,
Chris Considine


----- Original
From: JAGWINDER BANIPAL
To: cmconsidine@...
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 5:57 PM
Subject: B.C.J. No. 378 Victoria Registry No.
89/1983 Khalsa v. Bhullar


Dear Cmconisdine,

want to check the validty of the following judgement
that was passed by judge in favour of your client. Is
this email about true case.

Thanks,
>
> jagwinder Singh[/quote]

Inder Singh ji

Kala Afghana really didnt get good marks personally ever. I wonder a person who himself voilates Gurmat, what right that person has left to preach Gurmat.
I read Mr. Ghaga too, the person claims he is just serving panth. Pity on him. Then there is Joginder Singh Spokesman who has built empire in Chandigarh on misguided sangat. Sunday 24 Feb 2008, he published an article questioning Ravidas's purity on the basis of fabricated stories. When it was opposed, an apology was offered but a case was registered against Joginder Singh and his employee any way. Why to do that? What to establish that? What to prove? Why the guy published the article in the first place? His wife blames Badal Govt( I am not found of them either) when a warrant was issued against Joginder Singh. Amanider Singh stood right behind him? Why man? The guy heart feelings of Bhagat Ravidas's followers and you and your party will fight for that? Shame on you. In U.S, political leaders show a little distance if some thing is said unacceptable but in India political people take sides openly! Waheguru save India!!!! You know what? I heard from fprmer emlpyee of Spokesman that all lthses guys are in bed with each other. Sikhs should just stay aware of these people

 

[Inder singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Nobody planted that woman.My in-laws are from Victoria,BC.This was not the only case.he was found making notes on the pages of SGGS ji.he was warned for that.

Had the woman been planted the woman would have pursued the case in the court.

 

[Phlebas]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Sat Sri Akal

As its my first post I would just like to thank everybody who posts for an interesting and informative forum.

On the topic for Kala Afghana (and indeed anyone else ..) I would urge people to ignore arguments that seek to discredit an individual rather than address the issues he raises. It is entirely possible that Kala Afghana is the devil himself but right or a saint and entirely mistaken. Why not ignore him but instead refute the arguments he makes?

 

[Inder singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Sikhism lays maximum stress on one's morals.Guru ji says

Truth is high
But higher still is truthful living

How can you ignore the moral conduct of a person who himself preaches high ideals to others.

 

[Phlebas]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Its ones of my favorite quotes because for me it encapsulates such a profound truth .. that conduct is as important as intention.


But I would argue that this particular piece of wisdom doesn't help us here because in most cases we don't know who has lived “most truthfully”. What do we do if both the opposing parties had lived equally good lives? What if the most one who has a better character is mistaken or doesn't have access to all the evidence?


So it would seem to me that just going by the character of the person making the argument can lead us in to error. It is safer to look at the argument and the evidence. Would you be happy if a court of law decided on two witness just based on character rather than the evidence? If not why do so for religious issues

 

[Inder singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Because religion teaches us to be truthful,compassionate,humble,giving and do service to humanity.The purpose of life is to realize God in this life and get rid of cycles of reincarnation.

Sikhs have great gursikhs who sacrificed everything for truthful life.How can a sex offender who has multiple cases of stealing and bribery in india can preach to sikhs when he himself has low life.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Randip singh

Let me tell you the background of the case.

he was calling this lady on the pretext of taeching her Gurbani meanings.One day he told her that the teeka was in his quarters.She went there.he tried to fondle her.She raised a hue and cry.He could not succeed in his designs.

The committeee took the case to police.Poilce advised Committeee that if you take this case to court your community and Gurudwara name will be tarnished.Committee and lady Bhullar agreed.

This Kala afghana was dismissed.He was a policeman.He told them since he was not going to be taken to court give him in writing that case has been cleared.The committee did that.

Now this man was a corrupt policeman.After sometime he filed a case of defamation against the lady.The judge reviewed the case.That is how he was found guilty.

I think now it is better to understand the background of the case.

I am no fan of Kala Afghana, but what you have written has left me even more unconvinced. This whole case sounds very odd.

This case sounds like one decided on the basis of Balance of Probabilities (as civil cases are) rather than Beyond Reasonable Doubt (Criminal Cases).

PS to add even more than Kala Afgana, I am scepticle of Tapoban, and AKJ types.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Hi Jasleen,

I have made some comments. Don't take them as support for Kala Afghana, but just cold light of say analysis.

they're not so much questions as accusations.
he says (among other things):
Dasam Granth is not written by Guru Gobind Singh ji

Not all of it maybe. Some maybe written by The Tenth Masters Court Poets. Dasam Granth is not one continuous work, but a collection of works salvaged from the sacking of Anandpur Sahib.

Nevertheless great works are contained within Dasam Grath ji.

Jaap Sahib, Chaupai Sahib, and Sawyee are not banis

This has not only been raised by him but other people in the Sikh fraternity.

we should not wash our feet before entering gurdwara

I don't have a problem with this in the west, but in dusty hot climates it maybe essential to stop the Gurudwara becoming dirty. Washing feet for the sake of it has become a ritual. For example I shower twice a day, change my socks and am very clean. I do not see the need to wash my feet when going to the Gurudwara.

there's no such thing as "amrit vela"

When did Amrit Vela arise? Who created the concept of Amrit Vela? Was it the Guru's or did it come much later?

pittasay were not added to amrit at the first amrit sanchar

If they were or they were not is not really a problem.

saying the approrpiate banis cannot make amrit from water...

One must understand the concept of Amrit to analyse this. Does Amrit need Bani to make it Amrit?

says Anand Karaj is brahmanic ritual

Aspects of it are still based on the Brahmanical concepts of circumnavigating a fire, which has been replaced by a copy of Bani. I would need to understand the concept behind what he meant.

he attacks AKJ, 3HO, Damdami Taksal and other respected sikh organizations as being "agents of hinduism".

Actually these organisation do heavily have Vashnavite leanings. If you look into their history you will see that. I have no problem in criticising these and other Sikh organisations.

i'm sure some of his followers here can elaborate on his beliefs.

I'm not a follower of him but I am sceptical of organisations like 3HO, DDT, AKJ and GnSSJ.​

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

And Sirdar Gurbaksh Singh Ji is not "preaching" anything.... he is questioning rituals and beleifs on the touchstone of Gurbani in SGGS. He has repeatedly asked those opposing his beleifs to quote at least Five Shabads form SGGS Gurbani..so far no one has done so....but several have attacked him personally.
2. Questions have been raised as to how he could write ten books...undergraduates are writing replies upon replies as if they are scholars well versed with dsm granth which is full of brij bhasha sanskrit etc ? surely this takes decades of study ?? Dsm granth also has Persian language (hikayats).
3. Most of the Videos on a seminar are merely personal attacks and opinions - not much academic discussion/materials were presented. some are nothing more than subtle and not so subtle exhortings to violence/teach them a lesson/blah blah blah.
4 imho...this problem of dsm granth will not go away with threats - the opposing sides will have to sit down and discuss seriously and come to a compromise/understanding. The more we go at it the more hardened the positions become - the pro's have begun to give expalnations as to why chiratrpakhyans are "gurbani" and hikayats are "gurbani" ( sex education for sikhs !!) and the opposite side have begun to throw doubts on Benti chaupaee etc...all this is NOT GOOD.

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

And Sirdar Gurbaksh Singh Ji is not "preaching" anything.... he is questioning rituals and beleifs on the touchstone of Gurbani in SGGS. He has repeatedly asked those opposing his beleifs to quote at least Five Shabads form SGGS Gurbani..so far no one has done so....but several have attacked him personally.
2. Questions have been raised as to how he could write ten books...undergraduates are writing replies upon replies as if they are scholars well versed with dsm granth which is full of brij bhasha sanskrit etc ? surely this takes decades of study ?? Dsm granth also has Persian language (hikayats).
3. Most of the Videos on a seminar are merely personal attacks and opinions - not much academic discussion/materials were presented. some are nothing more than subtle and not so subtle exhortings to violence/teach them a lesson/blah blah blah.
4 imho...this problem of dsm granth will not go away with threats - the opposing sides will have to sit down and discuss seriously and come to a compromise/understanding. The more we go at it the more hardened the positions become - the pro's have begun to give expalnations as to why chiratrpakhyans are "gurbani" and hikayats are "gurbani" ( sex education for sikhs !!) and the opposite side have begun to throw doubts on Benti chaupaee etc...all this is NOT GOOD.

Gyani jarnail Singh

as always Gyani ji some excellent points.....and this is the point I have been trying to convey>>>>>"but several have attacked him personally"

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

And Sirdar Gurbaksh Singh Ji is not "preaching" anything.... he is questioning rituals and beleifs on the touchstone of Gurbani in SGGS. He has repeatedly asked those opposing his beleifs to quote at least Five Shabads form SGGS Gurbani..so far no one has done so....but several have attacked him personally.
2. Questions have been raised as to how he could write ten books...undergraduates are writing replies upon replies as if they are scholars well versed with dsm granth which is full of brij bhasha sanskrit etc ? surely this takes decades of study ?? Dsm granth also has Persian language (hikayats).
3. Most of the Videos on a seminar are merely personal attacks and opinions - not much academic discussion/materials were presented. some are nothing more than subtle and not so subtle exhortings to violence/teach them a lesson/blah blah blah.
4 imho...this problem of dsm granth will not go away with threats - the opposing sides will have to sit down and discuss seriously and come to a compromise/understanding. The more we go at it the more hardened the positions become - the pro's have begun to give expalnations as to why chiratrpakhyans are "gurbani" and hikayats are "gurbani" ( sex education for sikhs !!) and the opposite side have begun to throw doubts on Benti chaupaee etc...all this is NOT GOOD.

Gyani jarnail Singh

forgive me for asking, but i am new here... what are you a teacher of? gyani does mean teacher, right?

i'm not very smart, so forgive me if i'm wrong.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Hi Jasleen,

I have made some comments. Don't take them as support for Kala Afghana, but just cold light of say analysis.

I'm not a follower of him but I am sceptical of organisations like 3HO, DDT, AKJ and GnSSJ.​

so you follow who... guggha? the spokesman? some missionary organization? they all say the same things...

they try to appeal to intellectuals with their rational sounding arguments. heck, even i find some of those arguments convincing. but in their quest for logic, they seem to have forgotten "faith". i have faith in my Guru, i have faith in God. i even have faith in the Panj Piyare who act as Guru when they distribute Amrit. i believe in the bani of the tenth master. i believe the vaaran of bhai Gurdas Ji. i believe in the janam sakhis. it hurts me when some "logical" person tells me my Guru fainted under torture (as Guggha says of Guru Arjan Sahib). it hurts me when some "logical" person tells me that jaap sahib, chaupai sahib, sawyai, and parts of Rehras sahib are not actually gurbani.
if we stick to "logic", how long will it be before they decide having long hair is illogical and therefore we should all cut it? if they think the bani of the tenth master is not gurbani, how long till they dismiss the banis of the bhagats and bhatts (oh wait, they already have!).

religion and science are two separate things. my faith in God goes beyond logic because my Guru tells me God is capable of anything, and no matter how much i try, i can never understand the full extent of God.

yes, when people say thing that are so against my faith, it's easy to begin to dislike them and all that they stand for, as well as their words. i think that is true for many Sikhs.

sorry if i've offended anyone with this. i'm speaking from my heart.