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Grammer / Vyakarn Gur Gur-oh Guru / ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੂ

Discussion in 'Language, Arts & Culture' started by Ambarsaria, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    To avoid hijacking or jamming of threads and mis-information, let us review these three words. This subject is brought up too often and with little clarity being concurred every time to be repeated again in another thread.

    • Pronunciation: as spelled (u is not “o” like tool but think of “Four and take the sound of ur; for G take the sound as in Goat)

    • Meaning

    • Gur -- Creator

    • Virtually most common usage in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
    • Singular

    • Contextually modifiable
    • may be used to address reverently a ਗੁਰੂ /Guru
    • Example:
    ਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਤਨ ਜਵਾਹਰ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਜੇ ਇਕਗੁਰਕੀ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣੀ ॥
    मति विचि रतन जवाहर माणिक जे इक गुर की सिख सुणी ॥
    Maṯ vicẖ raṯan javāhar māṇik je ik gur kī sikẖ suṇī.
    Within the mind are gems, jewels and rubies, if you listen to the Guru's Teachings, even once.
    ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
    • Gender is contextual

    • ਗੁਰਦਵਾਰਾ - Gurdwara

    • Gur Entrance where “Dwara” is male in context

    • ਗੁਰਗੱਦੀ - Gurgaddih

    • Throne of the Gur and throne is female
    • Note also composite Constructs and plural: ਗੁਰਗੱਦੀਆਂ - Gurgaddhian
      • Many Gur thrones
    • Pronunciation: Gur – o

    • Meaning

    • ਗੁਰ ਹੀ; ਗੁਰ ਜੀ; ਗੁਰ ਤੌਂ

    • Is of Gur; dear Gur; through/from the Gur

    • less common but also of the Guru
    • Example:

    ਪੰਨਾ 3, ਸਤਰ 10
    ਮੰਨੈ ਤਰੈ ਤਾਰੇਗੁਰੁਸਿਖ ॥
    मंनै तरै तारे गुरु सिख ॥
    Mannai ṯarai ṯāre gur sikẖ.
    The faithful are saved, and carried across with the Sikhs of the Guru.
    ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
    • Addressing the Gur

    • Respected Gur

    • Respected Guru ji

    • Also as to say respectfully “through” Gur

    • Also as to say respectfully “through Guru”
    • Singular

    • Gender same as in Gur

    • Pronunciation: Gur – oo where “oo” as in cow’s “moo”

    • Meaning

    • One’s teacher

    • One’s guide, and it can be relative in Sri Guru Granth Sahib
    • Examples:

    • Guru Nanak Dev ji when say Guru they mean Gur – creator, their Guru
    ਪੰਨਾ 61, ਸਤਰ 7
    ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁਗੁਰੂਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥
    भुलण अंदरि सभु को अभुलु गुरू करतारु ॥
    Bẖulaṇ anḏar sabẖ ko abẖul gurū karṯār.
    Everyone makes mistakes; only the Guru and the Creator are infallible.
    ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

    • A reference to Guru as a teacher,
    ਗੁਰੂਜਿਨਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਧੁਲਾ ਚੇਲੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਠਾਉ ॥
    गुरू जिना का अंधुला चेले नाही ठाउ ॥
    Gurū jinā kā anḏẖulā cẖele nāhī ṯẖā▫o.
    Those chaylaas, those devotees, whose spiritual teacher is blind, shall not find their place of rest.
    • Singular/Plural

    • Can be singular/plural in context

    • ਦਸ ਗੁਰੂ - Ten Gurus
    • ਦਸਵੇਂ ਗੁਰੂ - Tenth Guru
    • Gender is contextual

    • ਇਸਤਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ - Lady Guru

    • ਬੰਦਾ ਗੁਰੂ - Man Guru
    I stand corrected and all comments welcome.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
     
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    #1 Ambarsaria, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
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  3. spnadmin

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    Thanks Ambarsaria ji

    The next time this entire matter of gur, guru, guroo comes up we need to have this thread at hand and post it as a reply. Because the confusion caused by denoting singulars and plurals by the use of aukads for the word guru has gotten out of hand. The thread you refer to is Gurbani Vyakaran, and of course Gurbani is poetry. The contextuality of singular versus plural, and of gender, will reflect that.
     
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    #2 spnadmin, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  4. prakash.s.bagga

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    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>ਗੁਰ - Gur </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>AMBARSARIA Ji,.

    • Pronunciation: as spelled (u is not “o” like tool but think of “Four and take the sound of ur; for G take the sound as in Goat)
    • Meaning

    • Gur -- Creator This is agreed fully

    • Virtually most common usage in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
    • Singular As per Basic Rule of Gurbanee Grammar this should be considered as PLURAL
    • Number.

    • Contextually modifiable This is agreed
    • may be used to address reverently a ਗੁਰੂ /Guru
    What is the GENDER of the word ਗੁਰ - Gur .?
    The word is without Aukad so must be PLURAL NUMMBER.
    Refereing this word as SINULAR seems to be against the Basic Rule of
    Gurbanee Grammar where it is clearly stated that any Noun word with Matra of Aukad is SINGULAR and Without Matra of Aukad is PLURAL .
    I am keenly interested in knowing how the word GuR is SINGULAR. I am not adamant
    but need convincing .
    Pl mention the source of information for confirirmation of the views .

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
    #3 prakash.s.bagga, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  5. Ishna

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    A quick glance at Christopher Shackle's An Introduction to the Sacred Language of the Sikhs and I am in agreeance with Prakash.

    Of course though, with any language there are always exceptions to rules.
     
  6. prakash.s.bagga

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    Thank you, Ihana ji

    My understanding is that one is required to first fully understand the
    full grammar of Basic Words.and reference meanings accordingly.

    And contextual is the application of the nasic words this should come later for understanding as contexts may result in exceptions to the basic Rule.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  7. Ambarsaria

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    prakash.s.bagga ji let us go step-by-step.
    Prakash.S.Bagga ji answer the following Punjabi quiz to test what you say about which is Plural,
    Example 1: Noun

    1. ਸੁਰ -- Tune
    2. ਸੁਰਾਂ -- Tunes

    • What you think is the gender declared or implied?


    Example 2: Noun


    1. ਇਸ ਸੜਕ ਦੇ ਅਗਲੇ ਮੋੜ ਤੇ -- At the next turn on this road ...
    2. ਇਸ ਸੜਕ ਤੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਮੋੜ ਹਨ -- This road has many turns

    • What you think is the gender declared or implied?
    Example 3: Verb


    1. ਮੁੜ -- Turn (direction to turn to one)
    2. ਮੁੜੋ -- Turn (direction to turn to many)

    • What you think is the gender declared or implied?
    One would learn this at 3rd or 4th grade of learning Punjabi at a Punjabi School from what I can recollect. Please deduce and tell me the Grammar rule from above!

    Waiting for your answer and then we can review further.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  8. prakash.s.bagga

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    AMBARSARIA Ji,
    Pl try to understand that Punjabi Grammar is not applicable to Gurbanee.
    That is why there is Gurbanee Grammar .
    What you have stated I am fully conversant as I have also done my school studies in Guru Nanak Public School.

    Grammar of Gurbanee words is very much different fro the grammar of
    spoken /written Punjabi language.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  9. Ambarsaria

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    prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post. Your answer is not complete. Answer the question please!

    Now you have raised the following and you keep asking for sources, may I return the favor and ask you in reference to the following,
    Which Grammar Books were available/used by the following who composed parts of SGGS,

    1. Guru Nanak Dev ji
    2. Baba Farid ji
    3. Bhagat Kabir ji
    Let us remember that Prof. Sahib Singh ji, Talwara ji or Shackle did not have a book out during that period.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  10. spnadmin

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    I am keenly adamant that we get a full explanation from forum member prakash s. bagga with respect to the use of the aukad (add or delete) to create singular and plural of "guru" within 24 hours, or the entire post above will be deleted. As will al further posts. There can be no hinting around. This matter has been aired on at least 4 threads that have had views of more than 6000 and it carries no water in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. A simple matter of logic, more than one guru is never referenced within individual tuks of SGGS whenever gur without the aukad is used. Good threads may not continue to be hijacked Fair warning.
     
  11. prakash.s.bagga

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    Mr AMBARSARIA Ji every Sikh knows that the actual editiing Banee
    with grammatical indications was started by GuRu Angad Dev ji and fully implemented by 5th Nanak GuRu Arjan Dev ji. and mantained so.
    So in this context your question is irrelevant.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  12. prakash.s.bagga

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    If you are so disturbed with this aspect of grammatical understanding of Gurbanee then I would request you to discontinue my membership with immediate effect and I should recieive no e mail information .

    When you feel convinced yourself then do remember me again I will be prepared to share with your good self.
    I think you all consider GuRu as some physical entity but I consider GuRu as JOTi .This difference is the basic cause of not being able to understand how Gur can be PLURAL.If you sincerely give a thinking to JOTi then I hope you will also come to the same conclusion. Gurbanee is all about JOTi only and oneishuld understand this JOTi as GuROO -GuRu or GuR.

    Thanking you and warm regards

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
    #11 prakash.s.bagga, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  13. Ambarsaria

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    So which Grammar book(s) they used (GuRu Angad Dev ji and fully implemented by 5th Nanak GuRu Arjan Dev ji) and passed on to others afterwards for interpretation including to you?

    Are you telling me that the Guru ji who put together Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji did not respect the writings of the following and created new grammar and rules to apply retroactively,

    1. Guru Nanak Dev ji
    2. Baba Farid ji
    3. Bhagat Kabir ji
    prakash.s.bagga ji evasion to answer questions is for children not for learned persons like you.


    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: prakash.s.bagga ji I found the following almost the utmost insult to say that somehow Punjabi as we learnt is all wrong and has been so for centuries and what was needed has never been published and its knowledge rests with some elitists of your choosing. Following an excerpt that I find abhorrent as none of Prof. Sahib Singh ji or Talwara ji put Punjabi or Punjabi Grammar down like that as they have simply provided helpful explanations and examples but not replaced Punjabi or Punjabi Grammar,
    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->
    To avoid this nonsense of people holding secret books, mystery understandings that a common man could not relate to was the reason for straight and common people style used by Guru ji and others in Punjabi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Applying your above premises probably a few thousand people are capable, if at that, of reading or learning Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as it is tied in with book sales of Vykarans by Prof. Sahib SIngh ji and Talwara ji. I am sure if they were alive today, humble and honest as they were, that they would have been disgusted by such association you made for them. Such line has been projected by a sect of Sikhism as in Nirmalas but I may be wrong on that.

    Such logic is equivalent to Brahmanic control and manipulation techniques being postulated by design or innocently while sugar coated in the name of exclusivity of "Gurbanee Grammar" at the expense of Punjabi language. The next step would be to say forget about Grammar, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not written in Punjabi that we know or learn or get taught or have been for centuries.
    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
     
    #12 Ambarsaria, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  14. spnadmin

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    prakash s. bagga ji

    A quick test of the search term "use of aukad in Punjabi grammar" on Google returned this source: http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,23219 The same pattern of talking in circles. And to give the example of likening the declension of (as you put it) JOTi to GuRu simply proves my point. You are being evasive.

    When do you intend to provide a serious reference for your claims? Never, because you cannot do it. Can you show me where the plural of "guru" as gur without the aukad can be found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, with Ang number and tuk? This thread and the related thread on Vyakaran are being hijacked, and so I must take action. I won't be hanging on the Internet 24/7 to do that, but for now you understand where we are headed.

    Let's not go off onto JOTi ... a different topic.
     
    #13 spnadmin, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  15. prakash.s.bagga

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    Pl be a bit more clear as to what references do you expect from me.

    You have mentioned about the site of Gurmat Bibek .I contributed there also on a request of freind of mine but when found that this site is exclusive for Amritdhari Sikhs I stopped contributing.Otherwise as such I had no problem of sharing such views with them .In fact I found them more open for accepting such views .

    I may tell you very frankly I am not a Sikh who would be interested in
    damaging the basic fabric of Sikh principles.I am in totallity forSGGS only
    If you share anything about DG I would decline I am not interested in sharing anything from DG
    .
    I I understand my limitations and live accordingly.

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
  16. spnadmin

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    prakash s. bagga ji

    Since when do Amritdhari Sikhs spell differently from anyone else?
     
    #15 spnadmin, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  17. prakash.s.bagga

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    AMBARSARIA Ji ,
    You are unnecessarily over possesive about your own views. Who is insulting Punjabi ?
    This is nothing but your own Creation.

    Can you tell me what language the word ਗੁਰੂ belongs to?
    Punjabi..Hindi...Sanskrit...English....Arabi..or Faarsi
    Once you know this sincerely you will get the answer to all questions.
    Prakash.S.Bagga

    If this comment leads the thread in circles, it too will be deleted. spnadmin
     
    #16 prakash.s.bagga, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2012
  18. Ambarsaria

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    prakash.s.bagga ji your question below is again another aspect to turn things away from reality. One knows meanings by application and usage.
    Let me elaborate,

    • Guru Nanak Dev ji
      • My esteemed respected Sikh teacher who changed my life or impacted it as much as if not more than my parents
    • Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
      • A great teacher and source of great wisdom
    • Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji
      • A great leader and teacher who respectfully completed the work started by other Nine Guru ji to create Khalsa
      It belongs to many Languages now. Its origin is ascribed to Sanskrit from what I come across but that matters not to a person on the street or me. It is well defined and understood through its usage in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and by Sikhs in Punjabi and its usage by others in other languages.​
    prakash.s.bagga ji how does it conflict with what is stated at the start of the thread in my post? How does what I wrote there not align with what you state? What I wrote there is based on Punjabi I learnt and not based on any Gurbanee Vyakarans. Doesn't it re-inforce that Punjabi Grammar is consistent for usage in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and outside?
    Quote:
    <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga [​IMG]
    AMBARSARIA Ji ,
    ......
    I may post my answer as
    The word "
    ਗੁਰੂ" is a pure word from SANSKRIT. And in Sanskrit its grammar is given as NOUN, SINGULAR ,DUAL NUMBER
    (DWEE-VACHAN). Can any one deny this ?

    </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
    What is there to deny?
    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: Prakash.S.Bagga ji sometimes we don't read our own writing exactly as majority of others would. It appears you do not believe the following that you wrote is insulting Punjabi,
    So Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in Punjabi but does not have anything to do with Punjabi (Punjabi means all including Grammar).

    Are you denying or now shifting to the camp that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not written in Punjabi?
     
    #17 Ambarsaria, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  19. prakash.s.bagga

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    Are you denying or now shifting to the camp that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not written in Punjabi?<!-- google_ad_section_end --> ?

    Not at all.

    My understanding is that there are different langugaes in SGGS and written in
    Gurmukhi Script.

    Now if you think that there is no difference in Script and Language,then you may be right.

    It is how one understand s about Script and Language.?

    Punjabi is one of the most beloved and most vibrant language it is always going to stay

    Prakash.S.Bagga


    Mr AMBARSARIA Ji you pl get me a statement from any learned scholars from any of universisty that script and language are same. I would be always with you,
     
  20. spnadmin

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    First. Do not ever edit a comment by a moderator or admin. Voice your objection as a new comment.

    Second. We have already explored the Sanskrit to Punjabi matter on a different thread.

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurba...bani-vyakaran-punjabi-grammar.html#post176230

    So what, that the word is pure Sanskrit? "Guru" is not declined in Punjabi as it is in Sanskrit. You yourself have said that only a hint of the grammar of Sanskrit can be found in the grammar of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So you cannot have it both ways. Either SGGS is written in Sanskrit or in Punjabi.

    Third, Where is there an example in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji of where gur, GuRu, or gurU ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ are used in the plural? or where a matra is used to make them plural? or where even a suffix is added to those words to show a grammatical case change, say from nominative/subject of a verb to instrumental/object of a preposition? Now there is a reason for what may seem to be out-and-out grammar violations in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But you are going to have to figure this out. I am not going to do it for you.
     
    #19 spnadmin, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  21. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    prakash.s.bagga ji you keep shifting. I did not talk of scripts so far.
    Prakash.s.Bagga ji get a grip and recognize Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is based on Punjabi with words borrowed or adapted from other languages. The dominance being inherent and native Punjabi.
    Sincerely you really treat people to be that dumb. I did not even mention Gurmukhi script in this thread so far let alone confuse between script and language.
    Sorry why should I do this? When did I say that Script say Gurmukhi and the language say Punjabi are the same. Gurmukhi was established by Guru ji as the script for SGGS written in Punjabi. Gurmukhi in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been used to write words from all kind of languages but that is the purpose of scripts to be able to write, read and pronounce. Languages provide words/vocabulary and Grammar. Punjabi serves this purpose in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with Gurmukhi as the script.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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