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God's Will and The Law of Karma

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Saint Soldier, Dec 6, 2008.

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  1. Saint Soldier

    Saint Soldier
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    Sat shri akal,:D

    Following is what Guru nanak said about the will of God and the Law of karma-

    About will of God:-

    Whatever happens is all in god's will
    --Guru nanak /gauri,151

    That alone happens which pleases god nothing is in the hands of man who is completely helpless
    --Guru nanak/asa,417

    Man comes and goes by god's will which pervades everywhere and everything for all time
    --Guru nanak/ gauri,151

    Pain and pleasure are part of gods will
    --Guru nanak/ gauri,223

    Men should live as god wills
    --Guru nanak/siri,25

    He who submits to the will of god,is accepted and treasured by him
    --Guru nanak/asa,421

    Liberation from bondage comes by god's grace none else has any say(i.e. can intercede)in this
    --Guru nanak/jap,5

    He who walks in the will of god, faces no impendiment
    --Guru nanak/asa,421

    whatever God willed,has come to pass;
    For there is no doer except him.
    --Guru nanak/gauri,154

    One is approved only if one submits oneself to the will of the lord-commandant
    in whose court only truth is accepted
    --Guru nanak/maru,1090

    God does whatever he wills
    --Guru nanak/asa,475

    About Law of karma:-

    One reaps what one sows.
    One eats from what one earns
    --Guru nanak/suhi,730

    One receives in accordance with what one does.
    As one sows ,so one eats
    --Guru nanak/danasri,662

    Hear me,lord!
    Man's life proceeds
    as his accumulated actions determine.
    He receives joy or sorrow,
    in accordance with
    what his past deeds have earned him.
    but all is good that comes from you.
    --Guru nanak/tukhari,1107

    All are yoked to god's will,
    and will be adjudged
    according to their deeds
    --Guru nanak/basant,1169

    The record of our good and bad deeds
    is scrutinised
    in the presence of the supreme Judge.
    We will be allowed to dwell
    near Him or far away
    as a result of our adjudged actions.
    --Guru nanak/jap,8

    Now the question arises what determines our fate Will of God or the Law of karma.??let us try to find the answer with the above sayings of Guru nanak pita.


    That alone happens which pleases god nothing is in the hands of man who is completely helpless
    --Guru nanak/asa,417
    One receives in accordance with what one does.
    As one sows ,so one eats
    --Guru nanak/danasri,662
    arent the above two contradicting statements in one Guru ji is saying that everything happens with the will of God and man can do nothing on the other hand in the second he says man gets according to his deeds this is confusing:hmm: allright lets move on.

    He who walks in the will of god, faces no impendiment
    --Guru nanak/asa,421
    All are yoked to god's will,
    and will be adjudged
    according to their deeds
    --Guru nanak/basant,1169
    hmm im geting it now.our subjection to God's will:hmm:

    Pain and pleasure are part of gods will
    --Guru nanak/ gauri,223

    Hear me,lord!
    Man's life proceeds
    as his accumulated actions determine.
    He receives joy or sorrow,
    in accordance with
    what his past deeds have earned him.
    but all is good that comes from you.
    --Guru nanak/tukhari,1107
    again both of them go against each other.:shock:

    now let us try to understand for ourselves(thats because we hav our own brains)
    and we shall get some hints from Guru ji as we move on
    now,
    whatever God willed,has come to pass;
    For there is no doer except him.
    --Guru nanak/gauri,154

    something in this thought, yes Guru ji says that God is the only doer that is the situation we are in is created by god and the reaction to that situation is our karma(contrary to the buddhist say that karmas are action,but buddist intellectuals dont face such questions as they dont hav to answer about the will of God:shutup:)

    But what then determines the will of god here is something from Guru ji
    God does whatever he wills
    --Guru nanak/asa,475
    so God does as he wills.:hmm:

    So finally we got our answer that God is the only doer and our karmas are simply reaction to his will which further decides how good or bad action we r doing .:yes:
    hey im still not satisfied:crazy:, hey guys why dont all of you present your views over this.

    ~~sainty~~
    ~~wald Guru Nanak~~

     
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  3. Archived_Member5

    Archived_Member5
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    It is a matter of great debate amongst philosophers and theologians, ‘the will of God’’.

    Man chose emancipation from the union of obescience, to live according to how he pleases. There is so much suffering in the world, the good struggle with dignity, allocating all acts good or bad, to be the will of God. I contest this. God is a parent, our Mat Pita. As parents we arm our children with knowledge and wisdom, give them wings of imagination and faith in a higher power, fortify them with our love and free them to the world. We know the world to be a dangerous and volatile place of many evils and unscrupulous people. Yet as parents we have no great desire, wish or power to contain our offspring within the home, and nor do we have the power to guide each step they take other than the good values we have instilled within them. All above and beyond this becomes fate, fortune and what is attributed to as God’s will.

    Although we struggle and suffer, we witness evil and immoral persons flourishing and boasting of their ability to be lowly persons with much fortune. Enterprise and initiative are their own reward, and evidently so. We study others and find all are somewhat helpless in many aspects of life. A negative outlook can be demoralising. Yes indeed, we may find ourselves in a nightmarish situation and suffer quietly for we know it is our lot, or God’s will, ore an absence of Gods consciousness of our existence and suffering, many things. I have noted when the dark periods pass by and the sun again shines, our memory erases the bad periods sometimes as if it didn’t occur. Such is human nature. We dwell upon the highlights of life, for to dwell on the negative is to become angered, cynical and disheartened. The power of will, retaining ones composure in midst of struggle and trial, mindful of the past heroes, Guru’s, Gods and great thinkers who suffered great hardship that we may be free and live in peace.

    God does not will mans suffering, the spirit of humanity perishes under insurmountable pressure and unrelenting stress. It is not conducive to spiritual growth, humnaity and peace for Waheguru to inflict or condone ongoing suffering.

    So many facts to consider and ponder upon when reflecting upon the path and journey of life, the whys and wherefore’s of existence and the meaning and purpose of it all...Waheguru Satnam Ji....
     
  4. Archived_Member4

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    For starters I don't understand God's will. What I do know about it is that we are given two chioces in life. Either step on the righteous path or continue down our own path with the mind as the guide.

    Here are shabads that will help clear things up.

    DHANAASAREE, CHHANT, FIRST MEHL:​

    Your Husband Lord is with you, O deluded soul-bride, but you do are not aware of Him. Your destiny is written on your forehead, according to your past actions. This inscription of past deeds cannot be erased; what do I know about what will happen? You have not adopted a virtuous lifestyle, and you are not attuned to the Lord’s Love; you sit there, crying over your past misdeeds.Wealth and youth are like the shade of the bitter swallow-wort plant; you are growing old, and your days are coming to their end. O Nanak, without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, you shall end up as a discarded, divorced bride; your own falsehood shall separate you from the Lord. || 1 || You have drowned, and your house is ruined; walk in the Way of the Guru’s Will. Meditate on the True Name, and you shall find peace in the Mansion of the Lord’s Presence. Meditate on the Lord’s Name, and you shall find peace; your stay in this world shall last only four days. Sit in the home of your own being, and you shall find Truth; night and day, be with your Beloved. Without loving devotion, you cannot dwell in your own home — listen, everyone! O Nanak, she is happy, and she obtains her Husband Lord, if she is attuned to the True Name. || 2 || If the soul-bride is pleasing to her Husband Lord, then the Husband Lord will love His bride. Imbued with the love of her Beloved, she contemplates the Word of the Guru’s Shabad. She contemplates the Guru’s Shabads, and her Husband Lord loves her; in deep humility, she worships Him in loving devotion. She burns away her emotional attachment to Maya, and in love, she loves her Beloved. She is imbued and drenched with the Love of the True Lord; she has become beautiful, by conquering her mind. O Nanak, the happy soul-bride abides in Truth; she loves to love her Husband Lord. || 3 || ang 689

    SIREE RAAG, FIRST MEHL, FOURTH HOUSE:
    There is one awareness among all created beings. None have been created without this awareness. ang 24

    As is their awareness, so is their way. According to the account of our actions, we come and go in reincarnation. || 1 || Why,
    O soul, do you try such clever tricks? Taking away and giving back, God does not delay. || 1 || Pause || All beings belong to
    You; all beings are Yours. O Lord and Master, how can You become angry with them? Even if You, O Lord and Master, become
    angry with them, still, You are theirs, and they are Yours. || 2 || We are foul-mouthed; we spoil everything with our foul
    words. You weigh us in the balance of Your Glance of Grace. When one.s actions are right, the understanding is perfect.
    Without good deeds, it becomes more and more deficient. || 3 || Prays Nanak, what is the nature of the spiritual people?
    They are self-realized; they understand God. By Guru.s Grace, they contemplate Him; such spiritual people are honored in His Court. || 4 || 30 || ang 25


    What we humans tend to do is react instead of act to a situation. When we react, our judgement is clouded by anger, greed, lust, attachment, or ego. Our mind becomes deluded and the light in our brain drifts further away. As soon as we realize our mistake the light is brighter and closer.

    To change your karma and this reacting behaviour we are told to mediate on the Lord. Yes your past deeds cannot be erased, but by mediating on the Lords name one can change their karma. Some will come along and say, but it is God's will for the person to behave in this way. Sure there is no doubt about that, but as we come on this site and are introduced to truthful living and other places in our lives, ultimately we still have that split second power of choice. We are made aware of what is right and what is wrong and if you choose to sit their and be stubborn then as you do so will you recieve. :yes:


     
  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Singh ji

    I have always liked that shabad, and especially this line

    Sit in the home of your own being, and you shall find Truth; night and day, be with your Beloved. Without loving devotion, you cannot dwell in your own home — listen, everyone! O Nanak, she is happy, and she obtains her Husband Lord, if she is attuned to the True Name. || 2 || :)
     
  6. pk70

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    That alone happens which pleases god nothing is in the hands of man who is completely helpless
    --Guru Nanak/asa,417
    One receives in accordance with what one does.
    As one sows ,so one eats
    --Guru Nanak/danasri,662
    arent the above two contradicting statements in one Guru ji is saying that everything happens with the will of God and man can do nothing on the other hand in the second he says man gets according to his deeds this is confusing:hmm: allright lets move on. (quate Saint Soldier Ji)

    Answer to your question lies in your question. If you can recall, Guru ji also advises to over come the influence of intellectual wisdom if the pursuit of Lord realization is felt for. ਸਭੇ ਛਡਿ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਪੈਰੀ ਪਾਹਿ ਰਹਾਉ
    Sabe cẖẖad si▫āpā gur kī pairī pāhi. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    Give up all your clever tricks, and fall at the Feet of the Guru. ||1||Pause||
    ਮਃ 5
    Why?
    The ਜਲੀਆ ਸਭਿ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਉਠੀ ਚਲਿਆ ਰੋਇ (SGGS17)
    Jalī▫ā sab si▫āpā uṯẖī cali▫ā ro▫e.
    All clever tricks are burnt away, and you shall depart crying.
    There is no contradiction, only a concept of His Ordinance needs to be understood with that wisdom that is useless in spiritual pursuit otherwise. Let’s take an example of a Drama, directed by a genius Director.If all players act totally as per director’s will, drama is played well. The actors who play well give in to Directors instructions and orders leaving their own thinking aside. Who does make the show bad? It is disobeying the Director. We are just players, if we play in His ordinance, nothing can affect us. When we go against it we suffer tremendously and irony is this that the course of His Ordinance goes on intact. Next question, When He is the doer, how can we act/play then? He has blessed all with a “surat”, all actors act as per “surat”. In His ordinance, that “surat” plays both role positive ones and negative ones.
    ਪੰਨਾ 24, ਸਤਰ 19
    ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ
    Ėkā sura jee hai jī▫a.
    There is one awareness among all created beings.
    ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ
    Sura vihūā ko▫e na kī▫a.
    None have been created without this awareness.
    ਮਃ 1 -
    ਜੇਹੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ
    Jehī sura ehā in rāhu.
    As is their awareness, so is their way.
    ਮਃ 1
    Do you see the difference of His ordinance and individual actions as per His given “surat”?
    He also sends some blessed ones with enlightening “surat” to put spiritual colors in the drama being played on this world stage. Those Seers try to affect that surat of others to take it towards the Lord also as per His will. Again, some listen some don’t, and the choices are made due to the individual surat. Who, as it is said, are blessed ones, the state of mind of those ones is beyond expression ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਜਾਇ However, with fortified faith only in Him, the actions are redirected, read on

    ਪੰਨਾ 3, ਸਤਰ 6
    ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ
    Mannai sura hovai man buḏẖ.
    By truly believing in the Lord's Name Divine comprehension enters man's mind and understanding.ਮਃ 1
    Spiritual Gurus explain the ways to be united with Him, the only thing they ask from the followers to give them is the”surat”, in Sikhism, Guru wants nothing from us but our “surat”those who give their surat to Guru, are sculptured again, they move on in different direction from the rest of the world, reaching to different state of mind
    ਪੰਨਾ 8, ਸਤਰ 2
    ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ
    Ŧithai gaī▫ai sura ma man buḏẖ.
    The intuitive consciousness, intellect and understanding of the mind are shaped there.
    ਮਃ 1
    Now let’s see how His Hukam prevails even when one acts
    ਪੁੰਨੀ ਪਾਪੀ ਆਖਣੁ ਨਾਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਣਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਬੀਜਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਖਾਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ੨੦
    Punnī pāpī ākẖaṇ nāhi. Kar kar karṇā likẖ lai jāhu. Āpe bīj āpe hī kẖāhu. Nānak hukmī āvhu jāhu. ||20||
    By mere words of mouth (statements) a man becomes not virtuous or vicious. The often repeated actions are engraved on the heart. Man himself sows and himself reaps (he reaps what he sows). By God's Order, O Nanak! man comes and goes.

    It is a system well deigned, people question on parts of the whole system, for them, after trying to express as much as He can as it is infinite and complex to understand by all, Guru also says
    ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਈ
    Hukmī hovan ākār hukam na kahi▫ā jā▫ī.
    By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.
    ਮਃ 1
    This complex game is said to be in His hands, an another reason He is to be called wondrous. All fall in His ordinance because none is beyond it. Even for individual acts, one is just working as He wills. Just as an employee having his own brains just work for the employer, same way one represents and works for Him as an employee represents the employer. In totality all what happens and done by people having different surat, fall in His ordinance. Understanding the whole system reduces the doubts. If it is partially questioned, it clouds the truth.
     
  7. Saint Soldier

    Saint Soldier
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    Sat shri akal,:D
    thank you all for ur replies.:)
    singh ji,

    that is what i just said but isnt all this with the will of God? becuse we never intent to do bad but still we somethimes do it. anger,greed and lust simply overtake us at some part of life. is this all with the will of god?


    again we can only meditate when god wills how can we perform our own karmas without his will?
    for example Guru ji commented on Bhagat Seikh farids thought--
    The first part of night yeilds flowers
    the later part fruit.
    They who keep awake in god,
    are alone blessed with his bounties.
    --Bhagat seikh farid,1384

    Guru nanak commented-
    All bounties come from the lord
    None can expect them from him,
    as a matter of right.
    Some even awaken do not get them,
    while others He wakes out of sleep and blesses.
    --Guru nanak sahib/siri,83;1384
    Guru sahib himself is saying that we become religious or non-religious with gods will so where does our karmas go?where is our will in becoming religious or spiritual?



    yes im doing this:p

    really i dont think so even if we dont come here it would be called God's will even then.


    yes all of us know what is good nd what isnt but what can we do if God wills us to do bad?:p

    ~~sainty~~
    ~~wald Guru nanak~~
     
  8. Saint Soldier

    Saint Soldier
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    Sat shri akal,:D
    pk70 ji,:yes:


    In the above example the director gives a script to the actor which depicts his will and he explains the way the actor must act and tell him about his limits.
    But God in no way do so we are free to do whatever we want and God never gives us any clue or something like that which we may call as a "script" of the drama of life.
    and plz explain me what exactly do u mean by "surat"


    now here is a question again in ur answer what decides that who will be a saint and who a thief isnt it our karmas of previous births or is it still the will of Lord?
    why are some chosen one made enlightened and rest remain fools again from baba nanak--
    All bounties come from the lord
    None can expect them from him,
    as a matter of right.
    Some even awaken do not get them,
    while others He wakes out of sleep and blesses.
    --Guru Nanak sahib/siri,83;1384
    Guru sahib says its the will of God but shouldnt it be the karmas of previous births?

    .

    The law of karma fails here?


    The employer only designates us a rank and orders us to work it is we who using our skills and guts work and it is our will as to work hard or not.this is our karma isnt it?

    Falsehood exhausts itself .
    Truth alone prevails ultimately.
    Guru nanak pita/Ramkali,953

    ~~sainty~~
    ~~wald Guru nanak~~
     
  9. Archived_Member5

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    DHANAASAREE, CHHANT, FIRST MEHL: RAMKALI, MEHELE 3. : The reasoning of these verses are beautiful, poetic and sound. All Bani of scriptures is based upon valid reasoning. One who has not sinned and has lived a life of propriety should logically not encounter wickedness by nature of their own upstanding good name and honour. It is true. The woman in all scriptures, the spouse, the beloved, the motherland is mans responsibility and duty, long post his need and necessity of the same have passed.

    ‘’Daat kare datar’’ God is the benefactor and the punisher. E look to find this is a false statement. Is our parents raised us in perfect tuition and faith, and we enter into a world and when suffering hardship we are unable to communicate we blame our parents it would undoubtedly be an untruth if not a downright falsehood. Obedient humanity is Gds fortress, wilful malfunction brings not only shame upon Waheguru but weakens his power. Once his posive light is dimmed, he thereafter is blamed for all else whilst man pays homage’s to all the delights and amusements of the world.

    Gods will is only and absolutely to peace and unity, for man to overcome material entrapments and be spiritually liberated, do no harm. Yet we blame without reason, convict without evidence and damn without ideal. We blame intellectual wisdom, as if there were any other kind of pure unbiased reasoning. There is paap, greed, envy, lust, ambition in the world. These paaps are the root cause of all evil and wickedness, a corruption of mans mind and thinking, a toxicity of his body and his general demeanour.

    In striving to veil their paap and ill intention they accuse and harangue, imply deception where there is none, and cite scriptures for their baseless unfounded barely veiled insinuations., Bani is perfect as is the true and devoted spouse remaining in her devastated home, abandoned and deserted by a spouse led astray be evil men who seek to make use of his wife’s wisdom and devotion. {Jai Santoshi Ma, Udeekan}.
    Man s spellbound as are mankind bound by the delusion of falsehoods by Shetaan, Paap, who makes merry and prospers whilst the suffering good either suffer his evil in the cause of God’s will, or curse God for casting sinless souls into a world devoid of humanity or reason.

    Thus the Holy War of Paap continues, as paap’s sins are concealed and the mob blame and slanders Gianni’s, Pandits, and Priests whilst aggrandising all sinners and the debauched in its ill begotten den of iniquity that is media, I feel inferring the acts of Shethaan are Gods will is a slander and aberration upon the sacred word of Waheguru.
     
  10. Saint Soldier

    Saint Soldier
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    Sat shri akal,:D
    hey is that all? can i expect some more replies ,comments and opinions?

    ~~sainty~~
     
  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    sainty ji

    I will respond if you can wait a little longer. Sometimes I get side-tracked and the topic is not as simple as black and white. Thanks for starting the thread. This topic is in fact one of my favorites.;)
     
  12. pk70

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    Let’s take an example of a Drama, directed by a genius Director. If all players act totally as per director’s will, drama is played well. The actors who play well give in to Directors instructions and orders leaving their own thinking aside. Who does make the show bad? It is disobeying the Director. We are just players, if we play in His ordinance, nothing can affect us. When we go against it we suffer tremendously and irony is this that the course of His Ordinance goes on intact. Next question, When He is the doer, how can we act/play then? He has blessed all with a “surat”, all actors act as per “surat”. In His ordinance, that “surat” plays both role positive ones and negative ones (quote pk70)

    In the above example the director gives a script to the actor which depicts his will and he explains the way the actor must act and tell him about his limits.
    But God in no way do so we are free to do whatever we want and God never gives us any clue or something like that which we may call as a "script" of the drama of life.
    and plz explain me what exactly do u mean by "surat"(quote Saint SoldierJi)
    First of all with all due respect I have to say that you have failed to understand implied idea beyond “director’s example” Director goes beyond script, many times he/she surpasses the writer(if it is not written by him/her) Like a mother says to the child” only those swim across who has better boats” then the child replies” Mom we are not in the river, we are far away from the river or ocean why we need a batter boat” You see, one can keep splitting hair just for the sake of it. In this example, only his direction and players' actions were taken to comprehend the will of the director about the delivery of the acts. Besides,the Lord being the writer of Life-script, He is also a director, He instructs us to act as per His ordinance, when as per given Surat, mortal accepts as it comes, misery and other factors that tear apart the soul leave no effect. Reaction contrary to it as per given Surat take away all the peace. That is the point, soul seeks religion.
    Your second issue is about” Surat”, its meanings with vast application are
    “ to have awareness, to have attention to, to have virtuous consciousness or contrary to it” it cannot be limited to one word as it is used.
    He also sends some blessed ones with enlightening “surat” to put spiritual colors in the drama being played on this world stage. Those Seers try to affect that surat of others to take it towards the Lord also as per His will(pk70)
    now here is a question again in ur answer what decides that who will be a saint and who a thief isnt it our karmas of previous births or is it still the will of Lord?
    why are some chosen one made enlightened and rest remain fools again from baba Nanak--
    All bounties come from the lord
    None can expect them from him,
    as a matter of right.
    Some even awaken do not get them,
    while others He wakes out of sleep and blesses.
    --Guru Nanak sahib/siri,83;1384
    Guru sahib says its the will of God but shouldnt it be the karmas of previous births?(quate Saint soldierji)

    It is very strange; you are expressing your own opinion about how and why a soul should be a saint. As expressed in the Guru bachan in which the word” surat” is used, actions are displayed as per given Surat, in other Guru Vaak( ਜੇਹੀਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ
    Jehī sura
    ṯṯehā in rāhu.
    As is their awareness, so is their way.
    ਮਃ1 ) it is expressed how these actions continuously leave effect on the soul. ਪੁੰਨੀ ਪਾਪੀ ਆਖਣੁ ਨਾਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਣਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਬੀਜਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਖਾਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ੨੦
    Punnī pāpī ākẖaṇ nāhi. Kar kar karṇā likẖ lai jāhu. Āpe bīj āpe hī kẖāhu. Nānak hukmī āvhu jāhu. ||20||
    By mere words of mouth (statements) a man becomes not virtuous or vicious. The often repeated actions are engraved on the heart. Man himself sows and himself reaps (he reaps what he sows). By God's Order, O Nanak! man comes and goes.
    There is not a single Guru Vak in Gurbani that states that saints and Seers come to teach in this world because of their previous karama. I hope you will be aware of Karma theory in Hinduism and Sikhism is different basically with one vital point” in Sikhism, Karama can be changed but in Hinduism, no it cannot be, if you are born low you are low forever, but Sikhism says that even if one is born in low caste, he/she can reach to the highest spiritual goal. Guru ji also says ( in Baramaha M-1) we are here because of His grace not the Karama
    Lets just look at your own above quote of Guru Nanak which actually defines the full control of the Lord. Every day, many Sikhs listen to Guru Shabadas that inspire to go only for virtuous way and live in Lord’s love and reject/ignore the rest as perishable because that is useless in Lord’s presence. How many are there who actually go for that? Not many, most of them, read, sing and enjoy the beauty of it but return to their activities like business as usual. Isn’t it? that is the reason Guru ji says to some He wakes up and there are others who are very close to the truth but never get it.
    Then there are others who just have no such practices but once they encounter “soul with virtuous surat” they change totally like Bhagat Dhanna ji, Bhai Ghanyaa Ji . As I have given a quote of Guru Nanak about inexpressible Hukam, it is not that simple to explain because it prevails in the whole system some of which we see and some is still unseen by us. You are ignoring that factor while structuring your questions
    Even for individual acts, one is just working as He wills(pk70)
    The law of Karma fails here?(saint Soldier Ji)
    No, it isn’t, karma is also a part of His will. It is a good question though. Let’s ponder over it in detail. The Surat is given, actions start as per Surat, those actions are individual because of the given surat; however, never forget, they are due to the Surat, and Surat is given by the Lord, that is why actions by others become His will. Are you with me?
    Just as an employee having his own brains just work for the employer, same way one represents and works for Him as an employee represents the employer.(pk70)
    The employer only designates us a rank and orders us to work it is we who using our skills and guts work and it is our will as to work hard or not.this is our Karma isnt it?(saint Soldier Ji)

    We represent the infinite Employer, the skills we use are also His gifts( as regular employer provides us some stuff to perform) and the will remains employers, even before our regular employer, some times our own will carries no weight( we suggest and are rejected and we start doing as we were doing before our suggestion). You are forgetting Guru Ji’s answer here. The problem is that we question His ordinance partially instead of understanding its dominance in seen and beyond seen existence, another reason, the doubts pop up.
    In totality all what happens and done by people having different surat, fall in His ordinance. Understanding the whole system reduces the doubts. If it is partially questioned, it clouds the truth.(pk70)
    Falsehood exhausts itself .
    Truth alone prevails ultimately.
    Guru Nanak pita/Ramkali,953( Saint Soldier Ji)
    What is falsehood in the comments above that triggered this quote of Gurbani? I couldn’t understand, forgive me, please elaborate it.

     
  13. Saint Soldier

    Saint Soldier
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    Sat shri akal,:D
    aad0002 ji,


    The fool will wait for ur comments . as that saying goes better late than never.:yes:
     
  14. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    ...He is Himself the director, Himself the writer and Himself the actor...
    ...He is himself is the stage crew, the props, the audience and the stage... :)
     
  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Thanks, I appreciate your patience. from another fool ;)
     
  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    sainty ji

    As I said in an earlier post. This topic is one of my favorite ones. Before launching off on reactions to the Law of Karma and free will in Sikhism, it would be good to ponder this shabad. It always helps me put my thoughts into perspective.

    ਜਾਨੀ ਘਤਿ ਚਲਾਇਆ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਰੁੰਨੇ ਵੀਰ ਸਬਾਏ ॥
    jaanee ghath chalaaeiaa likhiaa aaeiaa runnae veer sabaaeae ||
    This dear soul is driven off, when the pre-ordained Order is received, and all the relatives cry out in mourning.

    ਕਾਂਇਆ ਹੰਸ ਥੀਆ ਵੇਛੋੜਾ ਜਾਂ ਦਿਨ ਪੁੰਨੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਏ ॥
    kaaneiaa hans thheeaa vaeshhorraa jaan dhin punnae maeree maaeae ||
    The body and the swan-soul are separated, when one's days are past and done, O my mother.

    ਜੇਹਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤੇਹਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਜੇਹਾ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥
    jaehaa likhiaa thaehaa paaeiaa jaehaa purab kamaaeiaa ||
    As is one's pre-ordained Destiny, so does one receive, according to one's past actions.

    ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿਰੰਦਾ ਸਚਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
    dhhann sirandhaa sachaa paathisaahu jin jag dhhandhhai laaeiaa ||1||
    Blessed is the Creator, the True King, who has linked the whole world to its tasks. ||1||

    ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਮਰਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਸਭਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਪਇਆਣਾ ॥
    saahib simarahu maerae bhaaeeho sabhanaa eaehu paeiaanaa ||
    Meditate in remembrance on the Lord and Master, O my Siblings of Destiny; everyone has to
    pass this way.

    ਏਥੈ ਧੰਧਾ ਕੂੜਾ ਚਾਰਿ ਦਿਹਾ ਆਗੈ ਸਰਪਰ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
    eaethhai dhhandhhaa koorraa chaar dhihaa aagai sarapar jaanaa ||
    These false entanglements last for only a few days; then, one must surely move on to the world hereafter.

    ਆਗੈ ਸਰਪਰ ਜਾਣਾ ਜਿਉ ਮਿਹਮਾਣਾ ਕਾਹੇ ਗਾਰਬੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥
    aagai sarapar jaanaa jio mihamaanaa kaahae gaarab keejai ||
    He must surely move on to the world hereafter, like a guest; so why does he indulge in ego?

    ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਦਰਗਹ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਕਾ ਲੀਜੈ ॥
    jith saeviai dharageh sukh paaeeai naam thisai kaa leejai ||
    Chant the Name of the Lord; serving Him, you shall obtain peace in His Court.

    ਆਗੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਮੂਲੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਿਹਾਣਾ ॥
    aagai hukam n chalai moolae sir sir kiaa vihaanaa ||
    In the world hereafter, no one's commands will be obeyed. According to their actions, each and every person proceeds.

    ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਮਰਿਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਸਭਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਪਇਆਣਾ ॥੨॥
    saahib simarihu maerae bhaaeeho sabhanaa eaehu paeiaanaa ||2||
    Meditate in remembrance on the Lord and Master, O my Siblings of Destiny; everyone has to
    pass this way. ||2||

    ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੰਮ੍ਰਥ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਹੀਲੜਾ ਏਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ ॥
    jo this bhaavai sanmrathh so thheeai heelarraa eaehu sansaaro ||
    Whatever pleases the Almighty Lord, that alone comes to pass; this world is an opportunity to please Him.

    ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਾਚੜਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ॥
    jal thhal meheeal rav rehiaa saacharraa sirajanehaaro ||
    The True Creator Lord is pervading and permeating the water, the land and the air.

    ਸਾਚਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰੋ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
    saachaa sirajanehaaro alakh apaaro thaa kaa anth n paaeiaa ||
    The True Creator Lord is invisible and infinite; His limits cannot be found.

    ਆਇਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਫਲੁ ਭਇਆ ਹੈ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥
    aaeiaa thin kaa safal bhaeiaa hai eik man jinee dhhiaaeiaa ||
    Fruitful is the coming of those, who meditate single-mindedly on Him.

    ਢਾਹੇ ਢਾਹਿ ਉਸਾਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਵਾਰਣਹਾਰੋ ॥
    dtaahae dtaahi ousaarae aapae hukam savaaranehaaro ||
    He destroys, and having destroyed, He creates; by His Order, He adorns us.

    ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੰਮ੍ਰਥ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਹੀਲੜਾ ਏਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ ॥੩॥
    jo this bhaavai sanmrathh so thheeai heelarraa eaehu sansaaro ||3||
    Whatever pleases the Almighty Lord, that alone comes to pass; this world is an opportunity to please Him. ||3||

    IMHO Guru Nanak is saying a lot about karma and our pre-ordained destiny in the shabad. But we have to take care not to over-simplify what he is saying. Look at the last line - jo this bhaavai sanmrathh so thheeai heelarraa eaehu sansaaro ||3|| Whatever pleases the Almighty Lord, that alone comes to pass; this world is an opportunity to please Him. ||3|| This line is stated twice in the shabad. Is Guruji giving us something to think about?

    We have two ideas side by side in the last line. One idea is about His Hukam; the other is about the opportunity we have to choose. Things are never as simple as the Law of Karma or giving in and becoming passive. These two ideas work together. His will and our effort.

    The context for understanding is also very specific:
    saahib simarahu maerae bhaaeeho sabhanaa eaehu paeiaanaa || Meditate in remembrance on the Lord and Master, O my Siblings of Destiny; everyone has to pass this way. eaethhai dhhandhhaa koorraa chaar dhihaa aagai sarapar jaanaa || These false entanglements last for only a few days; then, one must surely move on to the world hereafter.

    This shabad has been with me a lot lately. I have shared it with forum member pk70. The husband of a close friend is near death, and this shabad puts that reality into perspective. Guru Nanak is giving us the key to understanding our relationship with life, with death, and with the Satguru. Every single line of this shabad is saying something about that connection - His Will, our Actions.
     
  17. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Antonia ji and Pyari Sadh Sangat ji,
    Do you notice that the Gurus tackle every issue with both sides?
    They are not saying you don't have free will and they don't say you do. They state what seem like two contradictory points. BUT with careful thought one comes to think that these aren't in fact contradictory, they are ways of saying things, they are ways of thinking about situations.
    I don't think this concept is complicated. We make it complicated by thinking about it too much.I've thought about it (no pun intended) with a rational mind, and found it to be quite simple. And I think it does not matter whether it is karma or God' will, we as Sikhs have to remember Him, share and live honestly. Now these principles do not require you to be a believer of karma OR God's will. The purpose of the concepts, if needed, is to bring balance in life.

    Let me present:
    Slicing the onion :8-:)
    Before, slicing the onion. I could say I will cut the onion, indicating free will or I could say God wills that this onion shall be cut.
    After I cut the onion. I could either say, I've cut the onion or I could say, this sliced onion was the will of God.
    But really does it matter who did what? The believer of almighty would say God did it. The atheist would say I did it. But in the end, the onion was in fact, guess? ...sliced. Now this is a neutral situation and presents no opportunity for the ...slicer to use the concepts to the advantage.( More on this later.)

    I think there is no purpose of discussing things like these. There is no right answer when it comes to picking a side. They are two sides of a coin. If your coin is standing on the edge, it is unstable so, you will switch between the concepts depending on the situation. I think keeping your coin standing is better then having a side facing up all the time. I think this is what the Gurus were aiming for, by taking both sides!
    This switch is required for balance in life! You have to know what side to tip the coin over for different situations to get the results.
    Let me present another example of where and how to use the concepts to your advantage:
    Getting an A+ on the report card :advocate:
    The student could either be like that emoticon and get filled with pride, causing him/her to fall on the next test. Or he/she could keep pride away from him/her and chill, which makes him/her do better on the next test.
    Now in this case, if the student says I did it, I, I, I, not you! Then pride will result.
    If the student says it is God's Will, then pride is no more. YAY!:) The student uses the concepts to his/her advantage and tips the coin to reveal God's will causing him to do better.

    However, getting a A+ might not fill the student with pride, rather it might motivate him/her. In this case, saying I can do it! would result in a better output next time, rather than saying oh, it was jsut how God intended it, he might not be so graceful next time. Of course, however, the point is to obtain a positive mindset (chardi kala attitude), and through which ever way one can obtain that mindset, one should continue on that way.

    Bhagat Singh
     
  18. Saint Soldier

    Saint Soldier
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    Sat shri akal,:shy:
    pk70ji,


    surpasses in the sense? at least he cannot change the script.alright don't give me another chance to eat away uragree got brain on this example:p


    yes one can:roll:


    true i agree:yes:got it:p



    HM inspiring :)

    thank you:yes:






    and what if someone goes against the "surat" even then he will be a saint ?


    really?


    yes i do and that again by God's grace and his will.


    is there any definition of low caste in sikhism?



    yes it does


    true


    :yes:


    if it is so why do we consider karmas differently and what makes a person good or bad his karmas right? and if karmas r will of God whom will u call a bad guy and whom a saint?


    it is


    Golden words. true very true i can c a divine soul inside u:p




    :yes: got it.


    something that clouds truth is falsehood.no one can cloud truth except our ignorance:D
     
  19. Saint Soldier

    Saint Soldier
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    Sat shri akal,:D
    pyare bhagat singh ji,:shy:

    hey let me give u an example to deal with explain same thing when a person commits a crime for example if I'm trying to kill someone let it be u:roll:
    can u apply these rule when a person is slicing other person?:p

    in my example it does:D

    in my given example who is the criminal God or sainty?

    for my example?:eek:


    really?:whisling:

    hypocrisy,do u mean this?:{-:)
    brother bhagat another example from my side suppose i my giving an entrance examination and i go for it unprepared and i fail who will be considered guilty for my failure God's will or my foolish karmas?
    for my example:rofl!!:

    and what if i pass i it would be called will of God:D

    ~~sainty~~
    ~~wald Guru Nanak~~
     
  20. pk70

    pk70
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    and what if someone goes against the "surat" even then he will be a saint ?(quote Saint Soldier)
    How one can see without the eyes?

    is there any definition of low caste in Sikhism?(Saint Soldiers Ji)

    In Sikhism, low caste is mentioned to defy its purpose as it prevailed in the society otherwise Gurbani rejects it outright.
    ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ਫਕੜ ਜਾਤੀ ਫਕੜੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਇਕਾ ਛਾਉ ਆਪਹੁ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਹਾਏ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਪਰੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਪਤਿ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਾਏ (83)
    Salok mėhlā 1. Fakaṛ jāṯī fakaṛ nā▫o. Sabẖnā jī▫ā ikā cẖẖā▫o. Āphu je ko bẖalā kahā▫e. Nānak ṯā par jāpai jā paṯ lekẖai pā▫e. ||1||
    Slok, First Guru. Perposterous is caste and vain the glory. The Lord alone gives shade to all the beings. Some one may call himself good, but his being good shall be only known when his honour shall be accepted in God's account O Nanak!
    ਜਾਤਿ (ਦਾ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ) ਤੇ ਨਾਮ (ਵਡੱਪਣ ਦਾ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ) ਵਿਅਰਥ ਹਨ, (ਅਸਲ ਵਿਚ) ਸਾਰੇ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ ਇਕੋ ਹੀ ਨੁਹਾਰ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਆਤਮਾ ਸਭ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਹੀ ਹੈ)। (ਜਾਤੀ ਜਾਂ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੇ ਆਸਰੇ) ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਵ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਅਖਵਾਏ (ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਚੰਗਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ)ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਜੀਵ) ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਚੰਗਾ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੇ ਲੇਖੇ ਵਿਚ (ਭਾਵ, ਸੱਚੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਲੇਖੇ ਵੇਲੇ) ਆਦਰ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰੇ
    ਜਾਤੀ ਦੈ ਕਿਆ ਹਥਿ ਸਚੁ ਪਰਖੀਐ (142)
    ī ai ki▫ā hath sac parkī▫ai.
    What good is social class and status? Truthfulness is measured within.
    ਮਃ 1
    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਪਤਿ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ (117)
    Gurmuk pa sab āpe.
    To the Gurmukh, the Lord Himself is social class, status and all honor.
    ਮਃ 3
    if it is so why do we consider karmas differently and what makes a person good or bad his karmas right? and if karmas r will of God whom will u call a bad guy and whom a saint?( quote Saint Soldier Ji)

    This question takes us to the beginning where we discussed” Surat”, as it is given by the Lord, He is still behind the play; however, He also has created individual entities with Surat, they act accordingly and their act becomes their responsibility. This responsibility makes the karma to be considered differently. Separation He created between the individuals and Him(Jap Ji) is enough to understand this riddle. Forget not that the chances are given to become virtuous, choices are made individually. As per Gurbani, He has created Maya also (to let the show go on in its good and bad prospective). When one seeks virtuous Lord or just remains involved in Maya, it is also considered pre ordained writ by Guru Ji
    ਸੋ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਇ (222)
    So kamāvai ḏẖur liki▫ā ho▫e. ||1||
    People act as they are pre-ordained. ||1||
    ਮਃ 1
    ਨਾਨਕ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਡੇ ਧੁਰਿ ਭਾਗੈ ੧੫(353)
    Nānak hirai nām vade ḏẖur bāgai. ||4||15||
    O Nanak, the Naam, the Name of the Lord, abides in the heart, by the greatest pre-ordained destiny. ||4||15||
    ਮਃ 1
    Here Guru Nanak shows his complete surrender to Him, seeing people making choices, doing good or bad, pointing out what is not good or what is bad, still Guru believes that it all falls in His control, no question is asked “why it is so”
    What is falsehood in the comments above that triggered this quote of Gurbani? I couldn’t understand, forgive me, please elaborate it(pk70).
    something that clouds truth is falsehood.no one can cloud truth except our ignoranc( Saint Soldier Ji)
    Excellent, I couldn’t put it in better way:yes:. Thanks.
     
  21. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    ???

    I have no idea where your questions are coming from. I think you have replied with a set mentality to make a mockery of what I said. I don't think you have understood my post, please read and try to understand it again and pose your questions. If anything needs clarifications, don't hesitate to tell me.

    Thanks
    Bhagat Singh
     

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