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God - Reincarnation - Sikhism

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by m1stikalbo1, Jul 23, 2005.

  1. m1stikalbo1

    m1stikalbo1
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    I have a few questions about Waheguru.

    I know that the purpose of a Sikh's life is live according to the rehat maryada and achieve enlightenment or moksha, which in turn gets us out of the circle of re-incarnation. so question one is

    1. How exactly did we get into this circle to start with ? Lets presume a long time ago we were all NOT in this circle and lived harmoniously with God...then how did we separate. And if we ARE able to be sucessful in achieveing moksha what are the chances we wont fall back into the circle?

    2. Secondly, why do we have to be in constant remembarance of God. Why can't God just grant it and accept us?

    3. Finally God is a mystery to me. I know there are descriptions in Gurbani but I am not able to translate and comprehend all the complicated ways. Even when it is translated into english...why can't people just right it in simple, plain english ... why do they have to go into 'Thou' and all those fancy olde english words. I am trying to become a better sikh but these fancy translation dont help. BUt back to the issue. Besides the mool mantar, can someone really tell me more about God. What is right and wrong according to him. And furthermore how does God define right and wrong and what according to God is sin and what is not a sin?

    Now i know that many of these answers are in Gurbani but can someone please explain me so that this can be like a starting point for me to link with Gurbani. I mean Gurbani has poetry in hindi, punjabi, sanskrit, arabic, persian and what not. It is not exactly easy to sit there and read. Furthermore, (as i mentioned earlier) the english translations are helpful but often confusing.

    Finally please accept my deepest apologies if i have said anything rude and I juse hope that I will be a better Sikh. Please go easy on me (dont attack <cough>) just help me understand God better so that I can become a better Sikh.
     
    #1 m1stikalbo1, Jul 23, 2005
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2005
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  3. kay

    kay
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    From an islamic perspective, God is one and only meaning he is unique, he is eternal and absolute meaning everything is dependant on him but he is not dependant on anything, he does not begett nor is he begotten, there is nothing like him meaning mental image that comes in to your mind as God is not God. This is the four line definition of God in Islam, hope you dont mind me posting this here, but you guys do have some things in common with Islam.
     
  4. Archived_Member1

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    he didn't ask about an islamic perspective. and unless the thread is in the interfaith discussions, it would be better if you leave islam out of it.

    thanks.
     
  5. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    From a Sikh perspective,

    Unity of God

    Sikhism supports the idea of the unity of God i.e.
    Raam, Allah and Waheguru are the same supreme
    entity by different names.


    "The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm
    are one and the same."

    (SGGSJ, p.897)

    "O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name."
    (SGGSJ,
    p.1349)
     
  6. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    The above answers verily contains the concept of God and is self-explanatory. In case of more attributes of God one may refer pages 597 through. 606 of the Granth Sahib. All these describe in continuity about God as perceived and summed up by Guru Sahibaans.
     
    #5 Sikh80, Mar 26, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2008
  7. spnadmin

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    kay ji -- Yes and No.

    Let's take a look at the Bani below.

    Unity of God can be a slippery term -- too easily redefined according to one's perspective, and not necessarily a Sikh perspective.

    Raam, Allah and Waheguru may to some religions be one and the same supreme entity -- but look closely at the first line from SGGS-- these are one and the same by different names. If one is saying that Raam, Allah and Waheguru are three concepts of God fused into One -- That is not a Sikh perspective. It is more a Hindu perspective. For example, all the avatars of Vishnu have named identities that are are fused into his single identity. This is not true of Satgur.

    The idea that Allah and Parabrahm are fused as One is not a Sikh concept of God. Rather, again in Sikhism, there is One who is called by different names.

    And finally in "O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name." This is uttered by the Hindu/Muslim Sant Kabeer who is talking about the Oneness of God. He never talks about multiple identities fused into one god.

    Then there is another problem. A practical and devotional problem. Sikhism's Waheguru never asked for sacrifice or asked that animal or human sacrifices be made in His Name -- for example, by calling out Allah Akhbar! In fact, this is alien and incompatible with Sikhism. There are important differences in the way God is encountered in Sikhism versus Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

    The thread did not start as an Interfaith discussion. So it can stay here unless the thread starter would like to see it moved. However, in Gurmat Vichaar -- the discussion should be based in Gurmat Vichaar and not (pardon me for my harshness) grounded in inter-faith comparisons. Gurmat Vichaar means Vichaar of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and not cross-platform understandings.
     
  8. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

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    I'm of the opinion that the forums are not for Sikhs only. The poster showed respect and honesty and did not try to preach, merely shared his perspective acknowledging it is an Islamic viewpoint. I can respect this approach. He is perfectly correct to say there are similarities in Islam and Sikhism. Obviously Muslim bhagats are part of Sikhi such as Kabir ji and Sheikh Farid. Of course there are important differences also. I only find it disagreeable when someone from another faith tries to pretend those beliefs are Sikh, or tries to prosletize against the Sikh faith.
     
  9. Archived_Member1

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    kay has a long history of interrupting discussions with completely unrelated posts about the "truth" of islam, telling us we're wrong, we don't really know the "true" faith, etc.

    and me being me, i have a long history of asking kay to back off. :)


    i agree, the forums are for anyone, just like gurdwaras. however, i don't think it's appropriate to bring up islam in every discussion...

    i wouldn't go to an islamic forum and start talking about sikhi... ;)
     
  10. BhagatSingh

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    Firstly, you have to understand reincarnation!
    gauVI guAwryrI mhlw 5 ] (176-10)
    ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
    Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

    keI jnm Bey kIt pqMgw ]
    (176-10, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
    In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;

    keI jnm gj mIn kurMgw ] (176-11, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
    in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.

    keI jnm pMKI srp hoieE ] (176-11, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
    In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.

    keI jnm hYvr ibRK joieE ]1] (176-11, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o. ||1||
    In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse. ||1||

    imlu jgdIs imln kI brIAw ] (176-12, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa.
    Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.

    icrMkwl ieh dyh sMjrIAw ]1] rhwau ] (176-12, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o.
    After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||

    keI jnm sYl igir kirAw ] (176-12, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
    In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

    keI jnm grB ihir KirAw ] (176-13, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
    in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

    keI jnm swK kir aupwieAw ] (176-13, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
    in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

    lK caurwsIh join BRmwieAw ]2] (176-13, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa. ||2||
    you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations. ||2||

    swDsMig BieE jnmu prwpiq ] (176-14, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
    Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

    kir syvw Bju hir hir gurmiq ] (176-14, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
    Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.

    iqAwig mwnu JUTu AiBmwnu ] (176-14, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
    Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
    jIvq mrih drgh prvwnu ]3] (176-15, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan. ||3||
    Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

    jo ikCu hoAw su quJ qy hogu ] (176-15, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    jo kichh ho-aa so tujh tay hog.
    Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.

    Avru n dUjw krxY jogu ] (176-15, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    avar na doojaa karnai jog.
    No one else can do anything at all.

    qw imlIAY jw lYih imlwie ] (176-16, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
    We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.

    khu nwnk hir hir gux gwie ]4]3]72] (176-16, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay. ||4||3||72||
    Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ||4||3||72||


    Sounds to me like recycling of materials. We become mountains then plants then whatever. Mountains? Isn't reincarnation the transmigration of souls. Mountains have a soul? well, yes! And I hear Sikhs saying plants don't have a soul.:crazy: (reason for being veggie)
    Reincarnation has no place in reality and everyday life! Believe it or not, it doesn't matter!

    There is no way you can not live harmoniously with God.
    ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਕੋਇ
    हुकमै अंदरि सभु को बाहरि हुकम न कोइ ॥
    Hukmai anḏar sabẖ ko bāhar hukam na ko*ė.
    Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.


    That thing about falling into the cycle of reincarnation is a way to teaching people. Suppose:
    You see these two idiots fighting in the distance. As you walk close, you see this wise man step in between them and tell them that if they stop fighting, they will be free from the cycle of births and deaths. After hearing the wise man, the idiots stop fighting.

    Now you tell me, did it matter whether, they were in the cycle of births and deaths in the first place? They stopped fighting and that's all that matters!:yes:
    That's an amazing question!
    We are all part of God. He has already accepted us! :yes: We are never separated from him!
    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ
    सोचै सोचि न होवई जे सोची लख वार ॥
    Socẖai socẖ na hova*ī jė socẖī lakẖ vār.
    By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.
    Here, I ask you a question. How does god define? Once you answer, I will answer what God has defined.
     
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    #9 BhagatSingh, Aug 8, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Firstly, you have to understand reincarnation!
    gauVI guAwryrI mhlw 5 ] (176-10)
    ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
    Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

    keI jnm Bey kIt pqMgw ]
    (176-10, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
    In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;

    keI jnm gj mIn kurMgw ] (176-11, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
    in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.

    keI jnm pMKI srp hoieE ] (176-11, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
    In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.

    keI jnm hYvr ibRK joieE ]1] (176-11, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o. ||1||
    In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse. ||1||

    imlu jgdIs imln kI brIAw ] (176-12, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa.
    Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.

    icrMkwl ieh dyh sMjrIAw ]1] rhwau ] (176-12, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o.
    After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||

    keI jnm sYl igir kirAw ] (176-12, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
    In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

    keI jnm grB ihir KirAw ] (176-13, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
    in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

    keI jnm swK kir aupwieAw ] (176-13, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
    in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

    lK caurwsIh join BRmwieAw ]2] (176-13, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa. ||2||
    you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations. ||2||

    swDsMig BieE jnmu prwpiq ] (176-14, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
    Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

    kir syvw Bju hir hir gurmiq ] (176-14, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
    Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.

    iqAwig mwnu JUTu AiBmwnu ] (176-14, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
    Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
    jIvq mrih drgh prvwnu ]3] (176-15, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan. ||3||
    Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

    jo ikCu hoAw su quJ qy hogu ] (176-15, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    jo kichh ho-aa so tujh tay hog.
    Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.

    Avru n dUjw krxY jogu ] (176-15, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    avar na doojaa karnai jog.
    No one else can do anything at all.

    qw imlIAY jw lYih imlwie ] (176-16, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
    We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.

    khu nwnk hir hir gux gwie ]4]3]72] (176-16, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
    kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay. ||4||3||72||
    Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ||4||3||72||

    IMHO.....This is NOT about reincarnation or transmigration....its about... EVOLUTION !!! And EVOLUTION is proven by modern Science - bones and all that stuff fossils etc etc....
    Reincarnation/transmigration are NOT Gurmatt...they are terms used in Gurbani as mere illustrations/metaphors/popular beleifs of the day.... to stress on GURU's own Philopsohy - HUMAN BIRTH is PRECIOUS..Human Birth is the One and ONLY chance to meet up with Akal Purakh..DONT WASTE IT....in idle pursuits trying t o figure out/out-figure Akal Purakh !!..HE is OUT OF OUR LEAGUE !!! asankh...asankh..asankh..loas, universes, planets, earths, worlds, jeevs and all...no END to it !! QUIT while you still have time..Gobind Milan kee eh teri barreah....
    Gyani JS:happy:
     
  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Gyani ji

    Another way to say this -- I found it at Gurbani.org -- Do not chase after God's actions. Let God be God. i will find the essay and post it here.
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    AAAD00002 JIO,
    THAT WOULD BE GREAT. THANKS IN ADVANCE.
    METHINKS you hit the nail right on its pin-head....too many of us chase after God's actions/reasons/whys and whynots....and never let HIM BE....

    JSGyani:happy:
     
  14. BhagatSingh

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    Well, to each his own. Guru Nanak redefined alot of concepts and to me this seems like an example of that where he has redefined the traditional reincarnation, and has stated it more like a recycling process.
    I don't see how that shabad is talking about evolution. :{-:) Explain
     
  15. pk70

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    If any one can understand understand the following statement, Gurmat is clear in concept of His name

    (Quote from aad ji)The idea that Allah and Parabrahm are fused as One is not a Sikh concept of God. Rather, again in Sikhism, there is One who is called by different names.
    Different names cannot make Him different, same super power prevails. Guru Angad Dev also clears it further that if any one tells what is difference between soul and Soul of God, I salute him/her" It sheds light on his`sargun srop that keeps confusing many who never realize that the diamond they are searching for is not separate from them. In one individual, God cannot be boxed as one drop cannot contain the Ocean.
     
  16. spnadmin

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    Here it is Gyani ji:

    This is the title, the introduction and the web link. Gurbani.org asks that its articles not be duplicated in other forums. So I don't want to violate any of their copyright guidelines.

    "DO DEEDS ORDAINED BY THE GURU;
    DON'T CHASE AFTER HIS ACTIONS


    ' Do those deeds which the Guru has ordained.
    Why are you chasing after the Guru's actions?
    O Nanak, through the Guru's Teachings,
    merge in the True Lord ||27|| (sggs 933).


    <><><><>

    ' Let's try digesting the above verse before proceeding further with this Gurbani Reflection. Throughout his life, this author heard preaching, claims or statements to the contrary. That is, if the Guru ate this, then what's wrong me eating it; if the Guru drank this, then what's wrong me drinking it; if the Guru did this or that, then what's wrong me doing the same. Here the Gur-Shabad is indicating the opposite to be true — follow and do the Guru's Words (Gurmat, Teaching, etc.); don't chase after the Guru's actions.



    ' gur kw kihAw AMik smwvY ] inrml sUcy swco BwvY ] guru swgru rqnI nhI qot ] lwl pdwrQ swcu AKot ] guir kihAw sw kwr kmwvhu ] gur kI krxI kwhy Dwvhu ] nwnk gurmiq swic smwvhu ]27]: Gur kaa kahiaa ank samaavahu...: One who takes the Words of the Guru into his very fiber, is immaculate and holy, and is pleasing to the True Lord. In the ocean of the Guru, there is no shortage of pearls. The treasure of jewels is truly inexhaustible. Do those deeds which the Guru has ordained. Why are you chasing after the Guru's actions? Says Nanak, through the Guru's Teachings, merge in the True Lord ||27|| (sggs 933). "

    from DO DEEDS ORDAINED BY THE GURU; DON'T CHASE AFTER HIS ACTIONS
     
  17. pk70

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    With due respect aad0002 ji, I have difficulty with agreeing with the translation given by Gurbani.org, my opinion is based on two other sources because they make more sense. Dr Sahib Singh interprets as
    “ do not go away from what Guru advises to do”
    Teeka Freedkoti
    “ why to act like Guru..”( in Punjabi there is word” rees karna” which means “ to act like one” it doesn’t sound it has any thing to do what Guru eats or not, Guru ji might have noticed some of the people trying to act like a Guru while dealing with people for example giving blessings to others or teaching others as Guru does but not practicing it. Also to whom it is addressed should be kept in mind as it is addressed to Pandit)
    Disagreement is welcome.
     
  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Bhagat Singh Ji, Gurfateh.
    why "evolution" and not "reincarnation" ?
    My take is based on rocks and mountains....
    As Science beleives the world as we know it began about 4-6 billion years ago as a whirling cloud of dust...slowly congealing into a solid planet...with thousands of years of boiling oceans of chemical concotion....etc etc..mountains and rocks being formed..then primitive one cell life forms..to basic primitive vegetation...progressing to various life forms..trees..insects..dinasours..reptiles etc etc finally to HUMAN FORM . All this is in the FOSSIL RECORDS and we learn soemthign NEW daily...
    I BELIEVE GURU JI is telling us the same thing in this shabad...the HUMAN is the PINNACLE..the Chance to meet the LORD....I dont beleive a human is going to become a Rock or a dinasour..or primal dust ( if he does bad things ???....) We ALL get ONE CHANCE..and if we do good..we PASS..and if NOT..we pass off into OBLIVION. PERIOD. What state depends on HIM.

    and i agree..to each his own.... I dont spend any time on what "life form" i am supposedly going to become in my next reincarnation......I would rather spend ALL my time...seeking to pass and merge with HIM.....
    Jarnail Singh
     
  19. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Reincarnation is a fancy word for recycling. Nothing more.We as living organisms die and get recycled. That's the law of the land. No one can change that. Yes, Gurbani does mention about past lives because they are part of Vedas and as people at that time were almost all Hindus and/or Muslims, our Gurus used their scriptures to show them the meaninglessness of the subjective truths carved by different religions.

    Tejwant
     
  20. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    "living organisms" you consider mountains and rocks to be living?
     
  21. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Well let's put this another way:

    What people call GOD is actually Creative Energy-Ajuni Saibangh- that is in organic and in inorganic what the religiousos call Omnipresent while not truly understanding its meaning.

    So, yes all get recycled whether organic or inorganic.

    Tejwant
     

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