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God as per Sikhism - sikhencyclopedia

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Sikh80, Mar 14, 2008.

  1. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Re: God as Per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Page 1, Line 1
    ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
    ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥
    Ik*oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa*o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.
    One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~
    Guru Nanak Dev
     
    #1 Sikh80, Mar 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
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  3. Sikh80

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    Re: God as Per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Page 3, Line 13
    ਕਰਤੇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਸੁਮਾਰੁ ॥
    करते कै करणै नाही सुमारु ॥
    Karṯė kai karṇai nāhī sumār.
    the actions of the Creator cannot be counted.
    Guru Nanak Dev
     
    #2 Sikh80, Mar 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  4. Sikh80

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    Re: God as Per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Respected pk70 ji,

    I am posting the very first line of SGGS ji.
    Would you kindly confirm that Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaaj is stating this in the praise of the Creator/waheguru/The Primal Lord; and all these are Attributes of the God as per Sikhism. I shall be grateful for your guidance.

    ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
    ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥
    Ik*oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa*o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.
    One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~
    ਜਪੁ
    जपु ॥
    Jap.
    Chant And Meditate:
     
    #3 Sikh80, Mar 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  5. pk70

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    Re: God as Per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Sikh 80 ji

    In Mool Mantra you have just quoted above, Guru Sahib has given a few qualities of our Creator. No other one has all those qualities. Of course, that is what Sikhism is known about its concept of God. Repeatedly this concept of God is expressed in Guru Granth Sahib ji. To go against this concept of God is to go against basic principle of Sikhism.
    Rememer, Mool Mantra is also answering a lot of questions about Almighty/Waheguru.
     
  6. Sikh80

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    Re: God as per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Very Many thanks for replying so promptly.


    I do respect you view point and shall always be guided by this principle.

    Regards, Sir.
     
  7. Sikh80

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    Re: God as per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Page 4, Line 16
    ਸੁਅਸਤਿ ਆਥਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਰਮਾਉ ॥
    सुअसति आथि बाणी बरमाउ ॥
    Su*asaṯ āth baṇī barmā*o.
    I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator.
    Guru Nanak Dev
    The translation above is a mess and seemingly incorrect. The following is by Dr. Sahib Singh. One is free to comment

    {
    (hy inrMkwr!) qyrI sdw jY hovy! qUM Awp hI mwieAw hYN, qUM Awp hI bwxI hYN, qUM Awp hI bRhmw hYN (Bwv, ies isRStI ƒ bxwn vwly mwieAw, bwxI jW bRhmw qYQoN v`KrI hsqI vwly nhIN hn, jo lokW ny mMn r`Ky hn),}
     
    #6 Sikh80, Mar 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  8. Sikh80

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    Re: God as per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Only He Knows the Creation

    Page 4, Line 19

    ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਿਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
    जा करता सिरठी कउ साजे आपे जाणै सोई ॥
    Jā karṯā sirṯẖī ka*o sājė āpė jāṇai so*ī.


    The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.
    Guru Nanak Dev
     
    #7 Sikh80, Mar 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  9. Sikh80

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    Re: God as per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Dr. Harbans Lal, Professor and Chairman, Department of Pharmacology.
    ********************************************************************************


    WAHEGURU - THE INEFFABLE DIVINE LIGHT

    Dr. Harbans Lal
    University of North Texas
    USA



    Sikhism - " Waheguru: The Ineffable Divine Light"
     
    #8 Sikh80, Mar 17, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008
  10. Sikh80

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    Re: God as per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Some Attributes OF God

    Ang604
    ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ਘਰੁ ੧
    sorath mehalaa 4 ghar 1
    Sorat'h, Fourth Mehl, First House:

    ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
    ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

    ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਅਪਾਹੁ ॥
    aapae aap varathadhaa piaaraa aapae aap apaahu ||
    My Beloved Lord Himself pervades and permeates all; He Himself is, all by Himself.

    ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ਜਗੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹੁ ॥
    My Beloved Himself is the trader in this world; He Himself is the true banker.

    ਆਪੇ ਵਣਜੁ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਆ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਚੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
    My Beloved Himself is the trade and the trader; He Himself is the true credit. ||1||


    ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹ ॥
    O mind, meditate on the Lord, Har, Har, and praise His Name.


    ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    By Guru's Grace, the Beloved, Ambrosial, unapproachable and unfathomable Lord is obtained. ||Pause||


    ਆਪੇ ਸੁਣਿ ਸਭ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਾਹੁ ॥
    The Beloved Himself sees and hears everything; He Himself speaks through the mouths of all beings.


    ਆਪੇ ਉਝੜਿ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪਿ ਵਿਖਾਲੇ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
    The Beloved Himself leads us into the wilderness, and He Himself shows us the Way.


    ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੨॥
    The Beloved Himself is Himself all-in-all; He Himself is carefree. ||2||


    ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਧੰਧੜੈ ਲਾਹੁ ॥
    The Beloved Himself, all by Himself, created everything; He Himself links all to their tasks.


    ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਸਾਖਤੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪਿ ਮਾਰੇ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਹੁ ॥
    The Beloved Himself creates the Creation, and He Himself destroys it.


    ਆਪੇ ਪਤਣੁ ਪਾਤਣੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਹੁ ॥੩॥
    He Himself is the wharf, and He Himself is the ferryman, who ferries us across. ||3||


    ਆਪੇ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਾਹੁ ॥
    The Beloved Himself is the ocean, and the boat; He Himself is the Guru, the boatman who steers it


    ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਚੜਿ ਲੰਘਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਚੋਜ ਵੇਖੈ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ॥
    The Beloved Himself sets sail and crosses over; He, the King, beholds His wondrous play.

    ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਖਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਹੁ ॥੪॥੧॥
    The Beloved Himself is the Merciful Master; O servant Nanak, He forgives and blends with Himself. ||4||1||
     
  11. pk70

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    Re: God as per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Sikh80 ji

    Above Guru Shabad is a picturesque of God as per Guru Sahib's experience. His infinity and immense power make us realize how little and helpless we are. Aspect of ego becomes laughable. Thanks.
     
  12. Sikh80

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    Respected Pk70 ji,

    Yes Sir,You are correct.

    I have lot of ego. Everything that happens is as per HIS Will and all that happens not is also as per Will. It is difficult to shed off the ego as edicted. Gurus have always stated that we are just help less. The following 'Tuk' postulates all that you mean in the above post.

    ikAw hm jIA jMq bycwry brin n swkh eyk romweI ]
    (822-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
    What am I? Just a poor living being. I cannot even describe one of Your hairs, O Lord.

    I do not remember the exact 'tuk';[ Maati Ka Kya Dhoopy Swami ..Manas ki gat ehi..]

    You may kindly send me the page number of the above line at your convenience. It is Guru Arjan Dev ji's Bani, Dhanashree]

    Regards
     
  13. Sikh80

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    Thanks for your posts.

    Regards
     
  14. pk70

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    Re: God as per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    Sikh 80 ji

    The shabad you asked is in Ramkli, here it is

    rwgu rwmklI mhlw 5 Gru 1 <> siqgur pRswid ]
    ikrpw krhu dIn ky dwqy myrw guxu Avgxu n bIcwrhu koeI ] mwtI kw ikAw DopY suAwmI mwxs
    kI giq eyhI ]1] myry mn siqguru syiv suKu hoeI ] jo ieChu soeI Plu pwvhu iPir dUKu n ivAwpY
    koeI ]1] rhwau ] kwcy Bwfy swij invwjy AMqir joiq smweI ] jYsw ilKqu iliKAw Duir krqY
    hm qYsI ikriq kmweI ]2] mnu qnu Qwip kIAw sBu Apnw eyho Awvx jwxw ] ijin dIAw so

    iciq n AwvY moih AMDu lptwxw ]3] ijin kIAw soeI pRBu jwxY hir kw mhlu Apwrw ] Bgiq
    krI hir ky gux gwvw nwnk dwsu qumwrw ]4]1]

    RAAG RAAMKALEE, FIFTH MEHL, FIRST HOUSE:
    ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:
    Have mercy on me, O Generous Giver, Lord of the meek; please do not consider my merits and demerits. How can dust be washed? O my Lord and Master, such is the state of mankind. || 1 || O my mind, serve the True Guru, and be at peace. Whatever you desire, you shall receive that reward, and you shall not be afflicted by pain any longer. || 1 || Pause || He creates and adorns the earthen vessels; He infuses His Light within them. As is the destiny pre-ordained by the Creator, so are the deeds we do. || 2 || He believes the mind and body are all his own; this is the cause of his coming and going.

    He does not think of the One who gave him these; he is blind, entangled in emotional attachment. || 3 || One who knows that God created him, reaches the Incomparable Mansion of the Lord’s Presence. Worshipping the Lord, I sing His Glorious Praises. Nanak is Your slave. || 4 || 1 ||

    . Translation is taken from internet, I dont think it is up to the mark.
    However, Guru Shabad is enjoyable.
     
  15. Sikh80

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    Pk70 ji,
    Thanks a lot for the reference to the Shabad. It is a beautiful like other shabads but I do not know as to what is in this that always touches me.

    Thanks Bhai Sahib for posting. I have book marked this page.

    Regards
     
  16. Sikh80

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    Re: God as per sikhism : Sikhencyclopedia

    rwgu rwmklI mhlw 5 Gru 1 (882-15)
    Raag Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl, First House:
    <> siqgur pRswid ] (882-15)
    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

    ikrpw krhu dIn ky dwqy myrw guxu Avgxu n bIcwrhu koeI ] (882-16, rwmklI, mÚ 5)

    Have mercy on me, O Generous Giver, Lord of the meek; please do not consider my merits and demerits.

    mwtI kw ikAw DopY suAwmI mwxs kI giq eyhI ]1] (882-16, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
    How can dust be washed? O my Lord and Master, such is the state of mankind. ||1||


    myry mn siqguru syiv suKu hoeI ] (882-17, rwmklI, mÚ 5)

    O my mind, serve the True Guru, and be at peace.

    jo ieChu soeI Plu pwvhu iPir dUKu n ivAwpY koeI ]1] rhwau ] (882-17, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
    Whatever you desire, you shall receive that reward, and you shall not be afflicted by pain any longer. ||1||Pause||

    kwcy Bwfy swij invwjy AMqir joiq smweI ] (882-18, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
    He creates and adorns the earthen vessels; He infuses His Light within them.

    jYsw ilKqu iliKAw Duir krqY hm qYsI ikriq kmweI ]2] (882-18, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
    As is the destiny pre-ordained by the Creator, so are the deeds we do. ||2||

    mnu qnu Qwip kIAw sBu Apnw eyho Awvx jwxw ] (882-19, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
    He believes the mind and body are all his own; this is the cause of his coming and going.

    ijin dIAw soiciq n AwvY moih AMDu lptwxw ]3] (882-19, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
    He does not think of the One who gave him these; he is blind, entangled in emotional attachment. ||3||



    ijin kIAw soeI pRBu jwxY hir kw mhlu Apwrw ] (883-1, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
    One who knows that God created him, reaches the Incomparable Mansion of the Lord's Presence.

    Bgiq krI hir ky gux gwvw nwnk dwsu qumwrw ]4]1] (883-1, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
    Worshipping the Lord, I sing His Glorious Praises. Nanak is Your slave. ||4||1||

     
  17. Sikh80

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    ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ
    Siree Raag, First Mehl:

    ਆਵਹੁ ਭੈਣੇ ਗਲਿ ਮਿਲਹ ਅੰਕਿ ਸਹੇਲੜੀਆਹ

    Come, my dear sisters and spiritual companions; hug me close in your embrace.

    ਮਿਲਿ ਕੈ ਕਰਹ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਸੰਮ੍ਰਥ ਕੰਤ ਕੀਆਹ

    Let's join together, and tell stories of our All-powerful Husband Lord.

    ਸਾਚੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਭਿ ਗੁਣ ਅਉਗਣ ਸਭਿ ਅਸਾਹ ॥੧॥

    All Virtues are in our True Lord and Master; we are utterly without virtue. ||1||

    ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਜੋਰਿ

    O Creator Lord, all are in Your Power.


    ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਜਾ ਤੂ ਤਾ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ

    I dwell upon the One Word of the Shabad. You are mine-what else do I need? ||1||Pause||


    ਜਾਇ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਤੁਸੀ ਰਾਵਿਆ ਕਿਨੀ .ਗੁਣੀ

    Go, and ask the happy soul-brides, "By what virtuous qualities do you enjoy your Husband Lord?


    ਸਹਜਿ ਸੰਤੋਖਿ ਸੀਗਾਰੀਆ ਮਿਠਾ ਬੋਲਣੀ

    We are adorned with intuitive ease, contentment and sweet words.


    ਪਿਰੁ ਰੀਸਾਲੂ ਤਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਾ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣੀ ॥੨॥

    We meet with our Beloved, the Source of Joy, when we listen to the Word of the Guru's Shabad." ||2||


    ਕੇਤੀਆ ਤੇਰੀਆ ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਕੇਵਡ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਤਿ
    You have so many Creative Powers, Lord; Your Bountiful Blessings are so Great.

    ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤਿ
    So many of Your beings and creatures praise You day and night.

    ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਕੇਤੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਅਜਾਤਿ ॥੩॥
    You have so many forms and colors, so many classes, high and low. ||3||

    ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਚੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਸਚ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ
    Meeting the True One, Truth wells up. The truthful are absorbed into the True Lord.

    ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਤਿ ਊਗਵੈ ਗੁਰਬਚਨੀ ਭਉ ਖਾਇ
    Intuitive understanding is obtained and one is welcomed with honor, through the Guru's Word, filled with the Fear of God.


    ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੦॥
    O Nanak, the True King absorbs us into Himself. ||4||10||
     
  18. Sikh80

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    Where is God and who is He


    God is or not, is not the question and the governing factor is, you have faith in Him or not! If you have faith, then He is a Reality. If no faith, then He does not exist for you. This is the field of spirituality and in this, every thing follows the faith. Every prophet said, “He is the Truth.” After all, they did not tell the whole world what was not the Truth. In every day science, many things cannot be heard, seen, smelt, tasted, or touched and we prove them by indirect methods. Scientists worked with obsession like mad to find those things. The same should be true of the search for God.

    Ask the Masters of the spiritual science about the truth. You do ask other scientists, believe them, read their experiences and do experiments to practically verify their work. The same way, labor here, too. You will have to be serious and sincere to experiment honestly. Work on this and find out the facts, or have faith in what the Gurus and the saints say.

    Yes, He is. Can you prove He is not? He is beyond our comprehension and understanding. What Guru Nanak Dev ji tells, from that we conclude that though nothing is without God, yet He is not a material entity. We cannot see, touch and prove Him in any direct way. Guru Nanak Dev ji says –

    God is One, all pervading, all powerful, an Eternal Truth, the Creator, keeps every thing under His own discipline, unbound by time, out of incarnation and created by His Own Self (Will). One realizes this by His grace. (Transliteration of the Mool-Mantar:
    Basic Formula). GGS, 1-1- 1

    The Fifth Guru further clarifies -

    The Lord is formless, not made of five elements
    and is Eternal. 5-816-10

    God is formless, not made of elements, eternal and self-created. What can conform to this description? Any such thing does not exist except God and so, there is none else equal to Him. This is the reason we cannot comprehend Him. He is "Every-Thing" and all that is “Nothing,” is Maya (Mundane). A God oriented person, with His Benevolence, beholds Him with his Third Eye (True Knowledge) –

    Nanak, these eyes do not have that vision (To see God). It is
    through True Guru that the mystic-eye (Third eye,
    knowledge) gets opened (To behold the Lord). 3-922-7

    Not this physical but the “Divine-Eye” (Brahm-Gian: Knowledge of the Lord) sees God –

    Nanak, the eyes that see the Lord are different! 5-577-13/5-1100-1

    God orientation and True Knowledge come by contemplating (Meditating) on God and through intense recitation of His Name (Naam-Jaap). When, once the Lord is seen (Realized), the seeker beholds Him everywhere, in every thing (Every thing becomes the manifestation of God). For him the Maya (Mundane:
    the world) is no more, God and only God exists and nothing else –

    He is, if someone can see.
    And then, only He will be there and the world will be gone.
    Kabir-342-17

    Someone equal to Him can know and tell us about the Lord, but there is none other like Him -

    None can tell any thing about God, because
    there is none other equal to Him to know this. 5-294-17

    Many times we experience a feeling that the events are preplanned and there is some superpower controlling every thing, but when none can show God to us, we depend only on His Mercy for His realization. The Guru tells us the way to deserve His kindness and it is to do the Naam-Jaap (Reciting His Name) –

    Hail the Satguru (True Guru) by whose grace I took up
    remembering the Lord.
    And by its virtue, I realized Him from within my own self
    (Due to the True-Knowledge). 1-149-6

    With your devoted effort, what you consider "Nothing" will materialize and become "Every-Thing." On realizing the Great Truth, you will get appeased and your questions will come to an end.
    Life is “God Factor,” God resides in us and we have to find (Realize) Him from within, with our Brahm-Gian (Awakening – True-Knowledge) which comes through the Grace of the Guru and Waheguru, Sat-Sangat (Company of the holy persons), recitation of Gurbani (Scriptures - treasure of the knowledge
    about God) and Naam-Jaap: the recitation of His Name -

    Listen to the truth about saints,
    They say what they behold! 5-894-8.

    Have faith, search and get that you want!

    Extracted the relevant part from:
    [BEGINNER’S NAM-JAP RECITATIONAL MEDITATION
    Dr. KULWANT SINGH]
     
  19. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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  20. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    AKAL MURATI



    1. Talib, Gurbachan SINGH, Japuji-The Immortal Sikh Prayer-chant. Delhi, 1977
    2. Trilochan Singh, "Theological Concepts ofSikhism," in SIKHISM. PATIALA, 1969
    3. Sher Singh, The Philosophy of Sikhism. LAHORE, 1944
    4. Jodh Singh, Gurmati Nirnaya. LUDHIANA, 1932
     
    #19 Sikh80, Mar 29, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008
  21. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    #20 Sikh80, Apr 15, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008

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