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Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by muslim, Jan 13, 2005.

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  1. muslim

    muslim
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    This is an honest question and please do not go interpreting it the wrong way please. I would like to ask the question who wrote the guru granth sahib, now i dont mean who wrote it down on paper but who composed it? Is it the word of god? and if so is there any evidence to prove such claims any miracles or evidence.
     
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  3. CaramelChocolate

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    My knowledge of Sikh history is limited so I do not know who composed it.
    Some will argue it is the word of GOD. Here is an example of what I mean: God is the sea, mine and your souls are a particle of water in that sea, and the Guru Granth Sahib is a bucket of water from that sea. We have some knowledge but Guru Granth Sahib has much more which makes it a bucket. GOD is pure endless knowlegde and Guru Granth Sahib is some of that knowledge.
    Personally I think if you read at least japji sahib then that itself is proof alone of it being from a higher power.
    Just to let you know that Sikhs are against miracles. Faith in GOD should be from the heart and not from predictions/miracles, because if the prediction does not come true they are likely to loose faith, you should love GOD for being GOD and not what he does, Sikhism asks for faith and devotion to GOD no matter what happens.
     
  4. muslim

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    I look forward to reading the japji sahib.
    sikhs are agianst miracles? but i was told on another thread that sikhism had its own miracles. And if it is against them, why? A miracle is an act of god, it cannot be explained by humans and goes agianst logic. Fair enough faith should be from the heart but anyone could then go and say that they two are a messenger of god as all the prophets have done. This claim cannot be made without some proof. Prophets in the christain jewish and islamic faiths all had their own miracles to prove their authenticity to the people to whom they came. Also how can you say that if the predictions/miracles dont come true? God has power over all things and he knows all so when you say a prediciton didnt come true, either the prophet is false or god does not have infinte knowledge and is imperfect. to say that sikhism only asks for faith and devotion well yes that is extremely important but how can you ask for people to believe and follow in something strongly when you can not give them something to believe in. For example if i said i was a prophet of god would you believe me? probably not unless i proved to you, or if i told you that i was god would you believe me? People will not believe something without being convinced.


     
  5. Singhstah

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    sikhi is against miracles because , powers to make miracles are tiny compared to what can be acheived through devotional service and most importantly NAAM, anyone whos done some sort of jap tap ,yoga,breathing exrcises etc. wud get them after some time however just having these powers dosent mean they are free of kaam,krodh,lobh,moh and hankaar(ego) especialy infact showing off these powers is very likely to increase ego. Any way coming back to the subject All of the Guroo Sahibs exept Guroo Gobind Singh Ji wrote gurbani in Guroo Granth Sahib ji,although some people say Guroo Gobind Singh Ji has one or two uncredited to him lines which are in Guroo Tegh Bahdur Ji's bani. Also many bhagats bani are written in Guroo Granth Sahib Ji, i cant remember all but a few well known bhagats to write bani are bhagat farid ji,bhagat kabir ji and bhagat ravidas ji
     
  6. singhaj

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  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Muslim,

    I have been enjoying your posts. You seem to have a very keen quest in learning. I have a few questions for you.

    What does 'Word of GOD' mean in your post?

    Does the God you worship write 'His Word' so in other words do muslims believe IK ONG KAAR to be a person hence mortal?

    How does one have concrete proof about Koran being the Word of GOD?

    How can one have any proof that any book is the Word of God?

    Why would God you believe in, hence follow need miracles? To prove what? To whom?

    Your statement shows that people who believe that their God needs to create miracles to prove something to us mortals, shows nothing but arrogance on our part, as if we are testing ONE TRUE GOD'S MIGHT..!!! And this is just an opinion.

    Tejwant
     
  8. vijaydeep Singh

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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    If you have Faith(Iman ) on Allah you will find all thing on earth belonging to Allah.All words be it Good or Bad are of Allah.

    So are all Miracles.Miracles in our lifes are not attributed to Us but to Allah.Sikhism is against claims that man can do miracle.Even Iblees(Satan) has miracluses power.But this does not means us to let Iblees come on our hearts.

    If you have faith in Allah,Das is sure that In Sha Allah by will of Allah,you will have a knowledge of True Islam Sikhism soon.Das only want to tell that even idol of Somnath showed miracle of standing in air without support.Hindus had faith in miracles but Muslims did not.hindus were defeated.

    Adi Guru Darbar states that when Baber Attacked india,Hindus and Muslims did occult but it could not not prevent then from the wrath of babber.
     
  9. muslim

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    Here are my answers to to your questions tejwant.

    firstly What does 'Word of GOD' mean in your post? Ok when i say the word of god i mean whether or not it was composed by god.

    "Does the God you worship write 'His Word' so in other words do muslims believe IK ONG KAAR to be a person hence mortal?" lol thats the funniest thing i heard all day, NO "OUR GOD" as you call him is not mortal.

    "How does one have concrete proof about Koran being the Word of GOD?" We have many proofs of this and so i shall be posting them soon.

    "How can one have any proof that any book is the Word of god?"
    Well we can have proof when material from that book shows divine inspiration. eg the quran has many scientific points within it, which have only been discovered in past few decades.

    "Why would God you believe in, hence follow need miracles? To prove what? To whom?" why would any one believe a person whom claimed to be a messenger of god. I AGAIN SAY WOULD YOU BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY I AM A PROPHET OF GOD? NO BECAUSE I HAVE NO PROOF TO PROVE MY AUTHENTICITY. We are not testing god but the people who claim to be messengers sent by him.

    And so i will recommend the following site to prove the quran is the word of god.

    http://www.beconvinced.com/

    Oh there is other site but i cant think of them at the moment so ill get back to you on that.

    peace from the middle east
     
  10. CaramelChocolate

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    I think your God means your concept of God.
     
  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Thats why it is faulty logis to say..
    All GOD are the same...all religions lead to GOD...all religions say the same things.
    The TRUTH is GOD is not the same for all..the "Allah" of the Koran is not the "Jehovah" of Jews, the God the father of Jesus is not the God of Islam. Each of them have their own concept of GOD which differes from each other.

    The WAHEGURU - IK ONKAAR of Sikh Gurus is essentially very very different from the "god", allah, jehovah, god the father.

    The God of the Bible/Koran/Jehovah thunders in violence/bloodhsed/bloddy sacrifices, seeths with anger, orders destruction of cities, sends floods to drown everything - including sinners as well as non-sinners.. changes people into stone statues, salt licks,orders the complete annihilation of {censored word, do not repeat.} armies, non bleivers etc etc..

    The WAHEGURU of Guur Arjun is ..Mithh Bolrra Ji har Sajjan Mera..kadeh na boleh Korra... MY Friend Waheguru is ALWAYS soft spoken, sweet talking , and NO MATTER what I DO ( to make him angry ??) HE DOESNT say a SINGLE HARSH WORD to me ( in anger ).

    That is at GURU LEVEL... at the lower level of "human beings - followers " the "concept of God" is different. Look at the Level of GURU ARJUN Ji...Saiin Mian Mir Ji, Pir Budhu Shah Ji, Sheikh farid Ji, Bhagat kabir Ji, Bhagt Bheekhan Ji..THE GOD is the SAME Loving Father, incapable of anger/krodh/lust/etc etc and always forgiving.

    Guru ji says: Dhur Ki bani Aiyee Jin Saglee Chint Mitayee..this bani is from WAHEGURU....for me as a SIKH that is sufficient PROOF. I dont need any act against nature to prove anything to me...( FACT: all the so called miracles are TIME BASED...once they ocurred and are NOW no more..so WHERE is the PROOF NOW....IF ANYONE WANTS to SEE the MIRACLE NOW..and TOMORROW..and day after Tomorrow and NEXT year... WILL the "miracle" keep repeating like an endless LOOP ?? Where is Lazarus, that Jesus Raised from the DEAD as a miracle ?? can I see HIM walking in my neighbourhood NOW or tomorrow ?? Can I show Lazarus to my children next year ?? IF NOT then what is this miracle ?? its just something written inside a book ...mayvbe it happened and maybe it didnt....for me it didnt because i have not seen lazarus and i cant beleive someone who says "this -that" happened and wrote in his book..anybody can write anything in any book...

    IF someone wants to claim their book is "special" word of God etc...then it should be DIFFERENT....but ALL "books" are the SAME - paper ink, can be torn, burned, submerge in floods, get buried in earthquakes, get blown away in tsunamis...what is worse is that these books came from God but were NOT written by GOD or His Messengers BUT many years LATER by others. GURU ji's wrote their OWN GURBANI in their own HAND...and Bound it so that it is tamper proof...something not done with the other books from "GOD". At least we Sikhs are 100% sure what is said to be from GURU JI..is from GURU JI written by them in their own hand and bound in a volume.

    Sikhs beleive in their GURU's WORD that Allah/GOD/Raam/HAREE/WAHEGURU is the SAME..at THAT LEVEL...but when it comes down to the followers of the various religions...their "concept" of God changes.

    jarnail Singh
     
  12. ksnagra13

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    Hey, muslim. The scientific miracles you talk aobut are so vague they could be intrepreted in so many different ways. Instead of just going to islamic websites to find these, try nonmuslim websites which show these aren't miracles at all. Also Iam not trying to put down ur religion, but there are like so many contradictions in the quran, (numerical, scientific,etc), and you can't just blame this on translations. Sometimes in the quran it looks like even addition can be performed properly. Is this a miracle too? Also you guys denied evolution which most scientific people believe. I am getting i degree in biology right now, and everything i learned is almost always related to evolution, but still you guys denied this. Another thing is i read a few statements in the quran were it looks like you guys believe in a flat world. you guys probaly denied this for years too, until people started going into space. Whats funny is after you guys are proven wrong, you say people interpret the quran wrong. What is even more confusing is that apparently the quran is suppose to be really easy to understand, that even a six year old could understand it, but it looks like more than half the muslim population can't even understand its true meanings.

    also i have another question. you guys believe in eternal hell for all the non-muslims. really how could you believe such a thing. do you really believe God is going to send 5 billion ppl to hell because they weren't muslim.. How about the man in Brazil who proably never heard about the islam? also since your religion started 600A.D, are you saying that all the non-muslims have been going to hell. Thats a lot of people.
    Another thing is you guys believe in predestination, which is really funny, because thats just means a lot of people are destined to go to hell from the start since they will never become muslim.
    Another thing i can't understand is even how a person like hilter can go to eternal hell. I understand he was a really evil person and killled so many Jews. But really he only deserves to suffer as much suffereing as he caused not eternal hell where he is going to suffer forever.

    ps.
     
  13. lion

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    very good point you have made singh ji,i also want to say that if we take a look at most muslim countries,then clearly we can see, there living standered is just like as HELL,.....i wonder, if there religion is so great(as they r claming) then why muslims are most backward people on this earth?
     
  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Any one would be hard put to name even one muslim country that has Peace/Harmony/Decent Standard of Living...and its people love to stay put there. Give them a 000.01% chance to ESCAPE to USA/WEST..these Muslims will leave their MUSLIM country and go in as REFUGEES and LIVe in SATAN LANDS !!

    The MOST poverty ridden, hell holes on earth are ruled by muslims. The MOST refugees in the world are from Muslim countries.

    The MOST people trying to ESCAPE from are Muslims from Muslim ruled Countries.

    The Most cruelty was comitted by MUslims agaisnt fellow Muslims...Pakistan Vs Bangladesh

    The Most damage recently was suffered by Muslims in Acheh..BUT the LOWEST DONATIONS came from the MUSLIM countries that claim to be Oil Rich..Saudi Arabia/Kuwait.Dubai/Iraq/Turkey/etc etc..Muslims are very happy to receive aid from SATAN AMERICA ??

    These are honest to goodness questions ?? Why dotn Muslims LOVE thier own muslim ruled countries...

    Jarnail singh
     
  15. lion

    lion
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    you cudnt have said it batter J.Singh ji,well said.....
     
  16. 21khalsa13

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    :idea: Quoted from Gyani ji's post.


     
  17. drkhalsa

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    [​IMG]Boundless scripture of Guru Granth SahibMonday, 30 August , 2004, 16:50





    The Guru Granth Sahib is a sacred scripture of the world and is the Eternal Guru of the Sikhs. Because it is a scripture suitable of a universal religion, many world class philosophers and holy men consider it a unique treasure and a noble heritage for all humankind. Because, it is the Guru of the Sikhs, its adoration or veneration is an article of faith with the Sikhs. In the year 2004, the world will celebrate the Quad-Centennial of the Granth First Compilation. In 2008, the Sikhs will celebrate the Tercentennial of the Canonization of the Granth as the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

    The sacred verses of Sri Guru Granth Sahib are called Gurbani, which means the Guru's word or the song messages enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. In Sikhism, the Guru is the 'Wisdom of the Word' and not a human or a book. God revealed the Word through the holy men and women from time to time, and the most recent revelations were entered in the text of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. To the Sikhs, any scripture not included in the Guru Granth is unacceptable as the Guru word or authority behind their theology, and it is not allowed to be recited, sung, or discussed in Sikh congregations with only exception for the compositions of Guru Gobind Singh, Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal. These were considered to elucidate the Guru Granth verses. Those who explain the scripture or teach the doctrines contained in the scripture are respected as teachers, granthi, missionaries, saints or enlightened souls in the Sikh religion.

    The Sikhs regard Sri Guru Granth Sahib as a complete, inviolable and final embodiment of the message for them. There is to be no word beyond the Word. And that's how their last guru, Guru Gobind Singh, spoke to the congregation on October 20, 1708 shortly before his ascension.

    "Those who desire to behold the Guru should obey the Granth Sahib. Its contents are the visible body of the Guru." Sri Guru Granth Sahib contains hymns of 36 composers written in twenty-two languages employing a phonetically perfected Gurmukhi script on 1430 pages in 511,874 words, 1,720,345 characters, and 28,534 lines. It has been preserved in its original format since its last completion by Guru Gobind Singh in 1705.

    It is well known that religious institutions protect themselves from erosion by enshrining their tenets and doctrines in some tangible form. The best and the most modern form of preserving the doctrinal purity today is the use of printed media and electronic storage. At the time of the Granth compilation, the Sikh gurus could make use of only handwritten books, and they used this medium wisely. If available, all of the founders and the followers of great religions would have liked to compile one volume of their scriptures, as the Sikh gurus did, to preserve their scriptures for posterity.

    Guru Granth was composed in poetry perhaps to both prevent alterations or adulterations, and to reach out to human heart. According to some writers, ts power is the power of the puissant and winged word, and no exegesis or commentary or translation can ever convey the full beauty of its thought and poetry.?Further, poetry can be left to the culture and the times that follow to best interpret the message.

    Thus the Guru Granth incorporates all of the features to place it alongside the world's greatest scriptures. Besides, this is the only scripture which in spite of its interfaith nature was dictated, edited, proof-read, and signed for authenticity by the founders of the faith in their life time. These unique features helped preserve the Sikh religion throughout the numerous onslaughts it endured over the period of five centuries. The Granth proved to be a sufficiently foolproof means for continuously providing safeguard against adulteration and extinction of the Sikh religion for centuries to come.

    The fifth Sikh Guru, Arjan Dev first compiled the Guru Granth in I604 in the city of Amritsar. Guru Gobind Singh prepared the second edition, which he completed at Damdama, a town in the State of Punjab in India in 1705. Since then, his authorized version has been transcribed and printed numerous times; it always conforms to the Damdama edition in every respect. More recently the text in its original font is available electronically on many web sites for every one to have free access. In addition to the edition in original Gurmukhi script, the Guru Granth on the web is available in Hindi, Sindhi, and roman English transliterations. Whereas translations in English, French, Spanish, Punjabi, Hindi, Sindhi and German are already available, those in Thai, Urdu, Hebrew and many Indic languages are in preparation.

    The Granth compiled by Guru Arjan contained the hymns of the first five Gurus along with most of the saints and holy men of medieval India and the Far East. He installed this scripture in the Sikhsentral shrine, Hari Mandar, at the City of Golden Temple in 1604. Later, this copy was taken into possession by guru rivals who would not wish to share it freely with the mainstream Sikhs. Guru Gobind Singh took upon himself to recreate the entire Granth. He dictated to a Sikh scholar, Bhai Mani Singh, all verses he considered revealed including the hymns written after Guru Arjan. It took him nearly five years at Anadpur Sahib and Damdama Sahib to complete this project in 1705. He founded Dandama town to immortalize this occasion.

    On October 20, 1708 Guru Gobind Singh gave his final sermon that conferred permanent gurudom on the Damdama version of the Granth. He selected town of Naderh several hundred miles away from Damdama for this event. Since that day, the Granth has come to be known as Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib contains 5894 hymns. Guru Arjan contributed the largest number of 2216 hymns. Besides the hymns of other Gurus, he also included 937 hymns of fifteen other saints and eleven poet laureates of the Guru court whose compositions tallied with the gospel of the Sikh faith. Here, the Hindu, the Muslim, the Brahmin, and the untouchable, all meet in the same congregation of holy souls to create a truly universal scripture for our world.

    From the linguistic point of view, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is a treasury of the languages of its times that communicated well with every segment of the society. The language principally employed is the language of the saints, evolved during the medieval period. Based upon the local dialects, it was leavened with expressions from Sanskrit, Prakrit, Persian, Arabic, Bengali and Marathi etc. This language allowed for variations and still enjoyed wide currency in Southeast Asia. Its appeal is found in its directness, energy and resilience. In addition, the Guru designed a phonetically complete gurmukhi font to meet the need of inscribing the multi-linguistic scripture that is also musical.

    The poetry of the Granth is in itself a subject worthy of the highest consideration. Music forms the basis of the rhythms and classification of the hymns. They follow a definite metrical system called raags. A raag in Indian classical music means a pattern of melodic notes. This form is not only used to preserve the originality of the composition, as the poetry written in this form is difficult to imitate, but more so to provide the divine experience through the medium of music and the sounds of God creation. The total number of ragas is 31. The gurus themselves invented some of those. Under each Raag, the hymns are arranged in different meters as Chaupadas and Ashtapadas; long poems include Chhands, Vars, and Bhagat verses.

    Another outstanding feature of the Guru Granth is the rescission and beauty of its prosody. Whilst a great deal of it is cast in traditional verse forms (e.g. shlokas and paudis), and could best be understood in the context of the well-known classical raags, several hymns and songs make use of popular folklore and meters (e.g. alahanis, ghoris, chands, etc.). The inner and integral relationship between music and verse has been maintained with scholarly rectitude and concern. The complete musicalization of thought was accomplished in a scientific and scholarly manner so that it makes for the unusually vigorous yet supple discipline of the Granth's own metrics and notations.

    The Guru Granth verses are often sung in a process known as kirtan. In this process true meaning is revealed directly to the Surat (consciousness and awareness) through cosmic vibrations. The body energetic vibrations from our voices bond us to the spiritual light of universal intelligence. As we chant the Granth verses the universe speaks to us in metaphoric images. The physical body of the singer experiences the essence of each word through the lightening energy in the brain and the calming vibrations in the body, all caused by the sound currents. They keep the mind to stay focused on the Word. They heal the physical body and cleanse inner thoughts. The sound waves of the Gurmat Raags connect the mind, body, and spirit by alignment of the physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual entities. They implant in the psyche the basis for both spiritual and mental growth. To see a Sikh congregation chant the sacred hymns in unison is to see massed spiritual energy bubble before your eyes. This is how the ordinary words change into the logos and become auspicious.

    Reading of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, known as Gurbani paath, is a sacred rite for every Sikh that permits a connection to the Guru for spiritual guidance. It is more than a simple ritual or a complex scholarly endeavor; intellectual deliberation is engaged to seek wisdom while faith is cultivated in the process to receive the inner light. Reading the rhythmic poetry of Guru Granth is considered by some as healing in itself. Its chant is frequently prescribed to patients for relief of their symptoms and to reduce illnesses. It seems to facilitate understanding of pain and pleasure by indfulness?or eing in the moment?

    In mystic literature of Guru Granth the appeal of the numinous becomes ineffable, if not inexplicable. And yet the great Sikh scripture is not a knot of metaphysical riddles and abstract theorizing. For the most part it employs the idiom of the common people, and draws its imagery and metaphors from the home, the street and the work place. The hymns of the Guru Granth show an admirable use of the current figures of speech apart from their metrical richness and sweetness. Imagery was taken from everyday life and common occurrence to simplify subtle thoughts and profound concepts. The Gurus were keen lovers of nature and as such, have written glowing descriptions of panoramic environmental beauty, changes in the times of day, and the changes of seasons to inculcate love for the One Creator. Thus they made Guru Granth poetry an extraordinary breed of divinity, mysticism, immediacy, concreteness and urgency with which it touches the human heart.

    One of the greatest glories of the Guru Granth is its all-embracing character. It is a scripture completely free from bias, animus and controversy. Indeed, the uniqueness of the Granth in this respect is all the more astonishing when we think of the obscurantism, factionalism and religious fanaticism of the periods in which it was composed. They were all counterbalanced by inclusion of the songs and verses of a wide diversity of holy men, saints, savants and bards. Of course, their hymns and couplets rendered in their own language and idiom were so dovetailed as to find a complete correspondence with themes or motifs in the compositions of the Sikh Gurus.

    The Guru Granth, then, is unique in that it formed the first interfaith and still universal scripture. It is indeed a magnificent compendium of the religious, mystic and metaphysical poetry written or recited between the I2th and 17th centuries in different parts of the Mid-Eastern and Far-Eastern continents. It is also at the same time a reflection of the sociological, economic and political conditions of the day. The satire on the reactionary rulers, the obscurantist clergy, the fake fakirs and the like is uncompromising and telling. In showing the path to spiritual salvation, the Guru Granth does not ignore the secular and creative life of living beings. In addition to its mysticism and spiritual depth, the poetry of the Gurus throws light on their contemporary situations. It lays bare the corruption and degradation of the society of those times and underscores the need of social reform and economic uplift. Guru Granth verses advocate a spiritual soul for their otherwise inhumane administration of the then rulers.

    Obviously, the idea of Guru Arjan Dev was to celebrate the diversity in all religions and mystic experiences, and, at the same time, establish the fundamental unity of spirituality and faith through the scripture of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. In this scripture he founded an integral congress of all minds and souls operating on the same spiritual vibration. He elevated the songs of the saints, the Sufis and the bards to the elevation of the logos to salute the power of the Word whatever form it might take to reveal the glory of the One Reality.

    The Sikhs in particular and the religious world in general must be congratulated to be the recipients of the unique scripture of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. We, the Sikhs, must be humble and grateful to be chosen by Guru Gobind Singh who assigned us the task of the keepers of the light of Sri Guru Granth Sahib on this Day of October 20, 1708.



    "?2004 sify.com India Limited. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed."
     
  18. snavneet

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    Sat Sri Akaal Pyareyo! :wah:

    Pyaare muslim bhai sahib,

    The article posted by drkhalsa ji must have answered many of your questions. I will just add a wee bit to it.

    MIRACLES

    A miracle is a phenomenon that defies the laws of nature, which were CREATED by God. Without God's will, a person performing miracles adulterates the self-propagating laws of nature. And, Gursikhs believe completely in God's Will (Hukam) alone and NOT in their own will to perform an action. If a Gursikh's action overrides God's Will then it is a blasphemy. Hence, Gursikhs DON'T believe in "performing miracles" to create a following or to impress bystanders. But, Gursikhs DO believe in miracles happening of their own accord in the presence of God-realized souls, like our Satgurus and Bhagats. So, don't fall for any conjurer of cheap tricks since that will just make you a slave of the trick or the conjurer and the eternal truth of Creation will not cross your path.

    EVIDENCE OF AUTHENTICITY

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains God's message to humanity. It was revealed to humanity by our Satgurus and Bhagats. If you cannot simply believe that it is the word of God then your soul ought to take a dip in its eternal wisdom and the proof of its authenticity will be revealed to you by God's Will. If you cannot make that attempt then no other proof will seem enough to you. The perfect evidence is realizing the truth for yourself. In the presence of the Sun, warmth shall manifest itself in your being. How can you feel it without beholding it!

     
  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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    Very beautifully put snavneet Ji.
    Thank You.

    jarnail singh
     
  20. Platinum007

    Platinum007
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    ksnagra13 - Reguarding evolution, there was a half monkey/man looking skull found and kept in england, in the mid 1900s it was found that it was FRAUD. Until this day we have NEVER found evidence or skelitle remains of this evolution. The THEORY of evolution seems great but has large missing pieces. This is just my opinion and maybe you could shed more light on in a field i limit knowledge in.

    Also that man in brazil that never heard of Islam is NOT going to hell. From my understanding a man who has NEVER heard of Islam, YET has appreciated the earth God created for US, water, land, the sky will be judged as any other muslim.

    yes your correct when you say muslim believe fate, but they also beleive in free will. Here is an example.. you study all night long for a test (free will) the fact it goes to a hard grader in a pile of papers is your fate. IT could also go into a pile of papers where the grader could be easy marker and you gain a few more points on your test.

    " then why muslims are most backward people on this earth?"
    what do you define as backwards?
    not living like the westerns? they seem to have great technology in saudia arabia
    if a muslim doesn't want to live there they can move?.. but many choose not to hense the reason why there arn't many saudi's living aboard on a permanent bases. ALSO, they choose not turn into what we have here in western society is because if you give a hand you want the whole arm, now what i mean by that is like my most common example is sex, look at what its become now in 2005 from the 1900s, many of our sisters/daughters/cousins are not virgins before getting married in fact have probably slept with more people then you can count. thats just one example i can go on about talking about the effects alcohole has on our society. Mans odds of giving into his evil desires when given the oppurtunity will take it. Personally i beleive being gay is a SIN and just plain wrong, but in canada its now legal, look at the effects.. whats next?.. I WANT TO LEGALY MARRY MY DOG?!?!?... btw, i wouldn't be surprised if its brought up sometime.

    so basically that sums it all up
     
  21. ksnagra13

    ksnagra13
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    Yes, there are few things that aren't proven by evolution, but regardless the evidence for evolution heavily outweighs the evidence against. and these are usually sooner or later proven by evolution.

    and regarding the man in Brazil, iam sorry to say but you have the wrong understanding. It clearly says in the quran the non-muslims will go to hell and many muslims i talk to agree. Some muslims will say what you say, because they know how absurd it would sound to say that he'll go to hell, but nothing in the Quran backs this claim up.

    Also regarding fate. Lets look at things rationally. Most people usually follow the religion their born into. Heres a stat to consider, Jewish people lose the most people to other religion. (1 in every 4 new born Jews convert to another religion), but nevertheless 75% of new born Jews stick with religion. So now to say that all non-muslims are going to hell, doesn't that sound absurd too you. Look at how many great, peaceful people there are out there. Is Mother Thersea going to hell, is Dala Lami going to hell.

    Now the last thing, you talk about how Western society isn't good. Lets look at most of the muslim countries, not just Saudia Arabia. What happens there, girls get raped, and then they get stoned to death because they had sex out of wedlock. Do you ever hear about guys getting stoned to death. Amnesty has reported many cases of this occuring. Also Iam not promoting the Western way of life, but the great thing about it is, they let you live how you want to live. Not everyone drinks, smokes, acts slutting, there are many people out there that are exact opposite. Another thing I find really odd, is that usually put down the Western way of life, yet they all migrate here. Why is that. There are many muslim countries out there, iam sure one of them will let you in.

    I hope Iam not sounding rude or anything, just letting you know how other people think.
     

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